Bullet resistant too... great for sunglasses sold on eBay.

http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123012131

Air Force testing new transparent armor

by Laura Lundin
Air Force Research Laboratory Public Affairs

10/17/2005 - WRIGHT-PATTERSON AIR FORCE BASE, Ohio (AFPN) -- Engineers
here are testing a new kind of transparent armor -- stronger and
lighter than traditional materials -- that could stop armor-piercing
weapons from penetrating vehicle windows.

The Air Force Research Laboratory's materials and manufacturing
directorate is testing aluminum oxynitride -- ALONtm -- as a
replacement for the traditional multi-layered glass transparencies now
used in existing ground and air armored vehicles.

The test is being done in conjunction with the Army Research Laboratory
at Aberdeen Proving Grounds, Md., and University of Dayton Research
Institute, Ohio.

ALONtm is a ceramic compound with a high compressive strength and
durability. When polished, it is the premier transparent armor for use
in armored vehicles, said. 1st Lt. Joseph La Monica, transparent armor
sub-direction lead

"The substance itself is light years ahead of glass," he said, adding
that it offers "higher performance and lighter weight."

Traditional transparent armor is thick layers of bonded glass. The new
armor combines the transparent ALONtm piece as a strike plate, a middle
section of glass and a polymer backing. Each layer is visibly thinner
than the traditional layers.

ALONtm is virtually scratch resistant, offers substantial impact
resistance, and provides better durability and protection against armor
piercing threats, at roughly half the weight and half the thickness of
traditional glass transparent armor, said the lieutenant.

In a June 2004demonstration, an ALONtm test pieces held up to both a
..30 caliber Russian M-44 sniper rifle and a .50 caliber Browning Sniper
Rifle with armor piercing bullets. While the bullets pierced the glass
samples, the armor withstood the impact with no penetration.

In extensive testing, ALONtm has performed well against multiple hits
of .30 caliber armor piercing rounds -- typical of anti-aircraft fire,
Lieutenant La Monica said. Tests focusing on multiple hits from .50
caliber rounds and improvised explosive devices are in the works.

The lieutenant is optimistic about the results because the physical
properties and design of the material are intended to stop higher level
threats.

"The higher the threat, the more savings you're going to get," he said.
"With glass, to get the protection against higher threats, you have to
keep building layers upon layers. But with ALONtm, the material only
needs to be increased a few millimeters."

This ability to add the needed protection with only a small amount of
material is very advantageous, said Ron Hoffman, an investigator at
University of Dayton Research Institute.

"When looking at higher level threats, you want the protection, not the
weight," Mr. Hoffman said. "Achieving protection at lighter weights
will allow the armor to be more easily integrated into vehicles."

Mr. Hoffman also pointed out the benefit of durability with ALONtm.

"Eventually, with a conventional glass surface, degradation takes place
and results in a loss of transparency," Mr. Hoffman said. "Things such
as sand have little or no impact on ALONtm, and it probably has a life
expectancy many times that of glass."

The scratch-resistant quality will greatly increase the transparency of
the armor, giving military members more visual awareness on the
battlefield.

"It all comes down to survivability and being able to see what's out
there and to make decisions while having the added protection," Mr.
Hoffman said.

The Army is looking to use the new armor as windows in ground vehicles,
like the Humvee, Lieutenant La Monica said. The Air Force is exploring
its use for "in-flight protective transparencies for low, slow-flying
aircraft. These include the C-130 Hercules, C-17 Globemaster III, A-10
Thunderbolt II and helicopters.

While some see the possibilities of this material as limitless,
manufacturability, size and cost are issues the lab is dealing with
before the armor can transition to the field, the lieutenant said.

"Traditional transparent armor costs a little over $3 per square inch.
The ALONtm Transparent Armor cost is $10 to $15 per square inch,"
Lieutenant La Monica said. "The difficulties arise with heating and
polishing processes, which lead to higher costs. But we are looking at
more cost effective alternatives."

Lieutenant La Monica said experimenting with the polishing process has
proven beneficial.

"We found that by polishing it a certain way, we increased the strength
of the material by two-fold," he said.

Currently, size is also limited because equipment needed to heat larger
pieces is expensive. To help lower costs, the lieutenant said
researchers are looking at design variations that use smaller pieces of
the armor tiled together to form larger windows.

Lowering cost by using a commercial grade material is also an option,
and the results have been promising.

"So far, the difference between the lower-grade material and higher
purity in ballistic tests is minimal," he said.

Lieutenant La Monica said once the material can be manufactured in
large quantities to meet the military's needs, and the cost brought
down, the durability and strength of ALONtm will prove beneficial to
the warfighter.

"It might cost more in the beginning, but it is going to cost less in
the long run because you are going to have to replace it less," he
said.

(Courtesy of Air Force Materiel Command News Service)


I'm wondering how long before this stuff is outsourced to china and then
the cheaper product used in vests and limos.

On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 04:52:58 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm,
granpaw quickly quoth:

Bullet resistant too... great for sunglasses sold on eBay.

http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123012131

Air Force testing new transparent armor

by Laura Lundin
Air Force Research Laboratory Public Affairs

10/17/2005 - WRIGHT-PATTERSON AIR FORCE BASE, Ohio (AFPN) -- Engineers
here are testing a new kind of transparent armor -- stronger and
lighter than traditional materials -- that could stop armor-piercing
weapons from penetrating vehicle windows.

The Air Force Research Laboratory's materials and manufacturing
directorate is testing aluminum oxynitride -- ALONtm -- as a
replacement for the traditional multi-layered glass transparencies now
used in existing ground and air armored vehicles.

Scotty is rolling over in his grave at this revelation of his
Transparent Aluminum for non-whale-retrieval use.

-----------------------------------------------
I'll apologize for offending someone...right
after they apologize for being easily offended.
-----------------------------------------------
http://www.diversify.com Inoffensive Web Design

Larry Jaques wrote:

Scotty is rolling over in his grave at this revelation of his
Transparent Aluminum for non-whale-retrieval use.


Larry, I don't recognize the reference.
Please elucidate.
Use e-mail if you think it appropiate. :-)
...lew...

"Lew Hartswick" wrote in message
link.net...
Larry Jaques wrote:

Scotty is rolling over in his grave at this revelation of his
Transparent Aluminum for non-whale-retrieval use.


Larry, I don't recognize the reference.
Please elucidate.

As in Beam Me Up Scotty?

http://www.allscifi.com/Topics/Info_3489.asp

"In the process Scotty gives the formula for transparent aluminum, Chekov
gets hurt and Kirk uncharacteristically passes on a chance at romance with
Gillian."

Tim

--
Deep Fryer: a very philosophical monk.
Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 13:46:45 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, Lew
Hartswick quickly quoth:

Larry Jaques wrote:

Scotty is rolling over in his grave at this revelation of his
Transparent Aluminum for non-whale-retrieval use.


Larry, I don't recognize the reference.
Please elucidate.

Engineer Scott on the Enterprise in Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home.
They gave the secret to a plexiglass manufacturer so they could
retrofit a Klingon Bird of Prey to carry enough seawater + a whale
back to the future to save the Earth from a planet-eating ship which
spoke "whale". Just watch the movie. It was one of their better
ones with lots of self-deprecating humor and Catherine Hicks in her
best and most babelicious years.

-----------------------------------------------
I'll apologize for offending someone...right
after they apologize for being easily offended.
-----------------------------------------------
http://www.diversify.com Inoffensive Web Design

In article ,
granpaw wrote:


Mr. Hoffman also pointed out the benefit of durability with ALONtm.

"Eventually, with a conventional glass surface, degradation takes place
and results in a loss of transparency," Mr. Hoffman said. "Things such
as sand have little or no impact on ALONtm, and it probably has a life
expectancy many times that of glass."

The scratch-resistant quality will greatly increase the transparency of
the armor, giving military members more visual awareness on the
battlefield.


I'm wondering how long before this stuff is outsourced to china and then
the cheaper product used in vests and limos.


The part that grabs my attention (as a wearer of corrective lenses not
in contact with the eyeball) is that whole "scratch resistance" thing...
I'm forever cussing at the cost involved in replacing a set of glasses
due to the "fog" of scratches that sooner or later collect on my lenses,
regardless of how carefully I handle them.

If this stuff can be worked into lenses, I'd be thrilled to have a set
made out of it, since it might *FINALLY* mean I'd get to look through
scratch-free lenses for more than the first few weeks after getting a
new pair...

--
Don Bruder - - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004.
Short form: I'm trashing EVERY E-mail that doesn't contain a password in the
subject unless it comes from a "whitelisted" (pre-approved by me) address.
See http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html for full details.

On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 04:52:58 -0500, granpaw
wrote:

Bullet resistant too... great for sunglasses sold on eBay.

http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123012131

Air Force testing new transparent armor

by Laura Lundin
Air Force Research Laboratory Public Affairs

10/17/2005 - WRIGHT-PATTERSON AIR FORCE BASE, Ohio (AFPN) -- Engineers
here are testing a new kind of transparent armor -- stronger and
lighter than traditional materials -- that could stop armor-piercing
weapons from penetrating vehicle windows.

The Air Force Research Laboratory's materials and manufacturing
directorate is testing aluminum oxynitride -- ALONtm -- as a
replacement for the traditional multi-layered glass transparencies now
used in existing ground and air armored vehicles.

Does anyone remember in the Star Trek movie..where Scottie gives that
fellow a hint about transparent aluminum......

G

Gunner


The test is being done in conjunction with the Army Research Laboratory
at Aberdeen Proving Grounds, Md., and University of Dayton Research
Institute, Ohio.

ALONtm is a ceramic compound with a high compressive strength and
durability. When polished, it is the premier transparent armor for use
in armored vehicles, said. 1st Lt. Joseph La Monica, transparent armor
sub-direction lead

"The substance itself is light years ahead of glass," he said, adding
that it offers "higher performance and lighter weight."

Traditional transparent armor is thick layers of bonded glass. The new
armor combines the transparent ALONtm piece as a strike plate, a middle
section of glass and a polymer backing. Each layer is visibly thinner
than the traditional layers.

ALONtm is virtually scratch resistant, offers substantial impact
resistance, and provides better durability and protection against armor
piercing threats, at roughly half the weight and half the thickness of
traditional glass transparent armor, said the lieutenant.

In a June 2004demonstration, an ALONtm test pieces held up to both a
.30 caliber Russian M-44 sniper rifle and a .50 caliber Browning Sniper
Rifle with armor piercing bullets. While the bullets pierced the glass
samples, the armor withstood the impact with no penetration.

In extensive testing, ALONtm has performed well against multiple hits
of .30 caliber armor piercing rounds -- typical of anti-aircraft fire,
Lieutenant La Monica said. Tests focusing on multiple hits from .50
caliber rounds and improvised explosive devices are in the works.

The lieutenant is optimistic about the results because the physical
properties and design of the material are intended to stop higher level
threats.

"The higher the threat, the more savings you're going to get," he said.
"With glass, to get the protection against higher threats, you have to
keep building layers upon layers. But with ALONtm, the material only
needs to be increased a few millimeters."

This ability to add the needed protection with only a small amount of
material is very advantageous, said Ron Hoffman, an investigator at
University of Dayton Research Institute.

"When looking at higher level threats, you want the protection, not the
weight," Mr. Hoffman said. "Achieving protection at lighter weights
will allow the armor to be more easily integrated into vehicles."

Mr. Hoffman also pointed out the benefit of durability with ALONtm.

"Eventually, with a conventional glass surface, degradation takes place
and results in a loss of transparency," Mr. Hoffman said. "Things such
as sand have little or no impact on ALONtm, and it probably has a life
expectancy many times that of glass."

The scratch-resistant quality will greatly increase the transparency of
the armor, giving military members more visual awareness on the
battlefield.

"It all comes down to survivability and being able to see what's out
there and to make decisions while having the added protection," Mr.
Hoffman said.

The Army is looking to use the new armor as windows in ground vehicles,
like the Humvee, Lieutenant La Monica said. The Air Force is exploring
its use for "in-flight protective transparencies for low, slow-flying
aircraft. These include the C-130 Hercules, C-17 Globemaster III, A-10
Thunderbolt II and helicopters.

While some see the possibilities of this material as limitless,
manufacturability, size and cost are issues the lab is dealing with
before the armor can transition to the field, the lieutenant said.

"Traditional transparent armor costs a little over $3 per square inch.
The ALONtm Transparent Armor cost is $10 to $15 per square inch,"
Lieutenant La Monica said. "The difficulties arise with heating and
polishing processes, which lead to higher costs. But we are looking at
more cost effective alternatives."

Lieutenant La Monica said experimenting with the polishing process has
proven beneficial.

"We found that by polishing it a certain way, we increased the strength
of the material by two-fold," he said.

Currently, size is also limited because equipment needed to heat larger
pieces is expensive. To help lower costs, the lieutenant said
researchers are looking at design variations that use smaller pieces of
the armor tiled together to form larger windows.

Lowering cost by using a commercial grade material is also an option,
and the results have been promising.

"So far, the difference between the lower-grade material and higher
purity in ballistic tests is minimal," he said.

Lieutenant La Monica said once the material can be manufactured in
large quantities to meet the military's needs, and the cost brought
down, the durability and strength of ALONtm will prove beneficial to
the warfighter.

"It might cost more in the beginning, but it is going to cost less in
the long run because you are going to have to replace it less," he
said.

(Courtesy of Air Force Materiel Command News Service)


I'm wondering how long before this stuff is outsourced to china and then
the cheaper product used in vests and limos.

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

SNIP
If this stuff can be worked into lenses, I'd be thrilled to have a set
made out of it, since it might *FINALLY* mean I'd get to look through
scratch-free lenses for more than the first few weeks after getting a
new pair...


Don, it all depends on the light refraction index of the stuff. One
might find that the thickness of the new material to get the
prescription you (read that: we) need, the thickness/weight might be
well in excess of regular glasses'lenses.
This might mean even more weight on our noses, so I guess (my) plastic
lenses will have to do until they are prooven better.
Keep ur fingers crossed!!!
Bill

"Madeline, Not now!"
You mean that one.
Something about "beyond the dreams of avarice"
You bet.
Respectfully,
Ron Moore

"Gunner" wrote in message
news

Does anyone remember in the Star Trek movie..where Scottie gives that
fellow a hint about transparent aluminum......

G

Gunner

"Don Bruder" wrote in message
...

The part that grabs my attention (as a wearer of corrective lenses not
in contact with the eyeball) is that whole "scratch resistance" thing...
I'm forever cussing at the cost involved in replacing a set of glasses
due to the "fog" of scratches that sooner or later collect on my lenses,
regardless of how carefully I handle them.


I have prescription safety glasses and I work with abrasives every day, both
silicon carbide and aluminium oxide stones and paper/cloth, wheels, etc. I
have no scratches on my glasses and have had them for nearly two years.

Mine are made by AOSafety and have the thicker lenses (as opposed to the
polycarbonate). They're thicker but I think cost less. It occurs to me now
that they might be more scratch resistant (important where I work).

Regards,

Robin

In article GIv5f.11740$MN6.7646@fed1read04, BillP
wrote:

SNIP
If this stuff can be worked into lenses, I'd be thrilled to have a set
made out of it, since it might *FINALLY* mean I'd get to look through
scratch-free lenses for more than the first few weeks after getting a
new pair...


Don, it all depends on the light refraction index of the stuff. One
might find that the thickness of the new material to get the
prescription you (read that: we) need, the thickness/weight might be
well in excess of regular glasses'lenses.

Possible, but from the article, it sounds as though one of the *BIG*
factors in this "ALON" stuff is the weight reduction versus glass. How
much of that is the "Well, since you only need an eighth of an inch of
this stuff to get the equivalent armoring of a 4 inch thick chunk of
tempered glass, OF COURSE there's less weight" factor is pure guesswork
based on the info available so far, but it does at least sound promising.

This might mean even more weight on our noses, so I guess (my) plastic
lenses will have to do until they are prooven better.
Keep ur fingers crossed!!!

Yep... Even if the stuff IS suitable for applications like eyeglasses,
there's still the "military lag" factor... Us civilians likely won't see
any benefit from it for years, if ever.

--
Don Bruder - - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004.
Short form: I'm trashing EVERY E-mail that doesn't contain a password in the
subject unless it comes from a "whitelisted" (pre-approved by me) address.
See http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html for full details.

Yep... Even if the stuff IS suitable for applications like eyeglasses,
there's still the "military lag" factor... Us civilians likely won't see
any benefit from it for years, if ever.


Ayyyup!
Bill

Robin S. wrote:

I have prescription safety glasses and I work with abrasives every day, both
silicon carbide and aluminium oxide stones and paper/cloth, wheels, etc. I
have no scratches on my glasses and have had them for nearly two years.

Mine are made by AOSafety and have the thicker lenses (as opposed to the
polycarbonate). They're thicker but I think cost less. It occurs to me now
that they might be more scratch resistant (important where I work).

Regards,

Robin



Robin-
You're apparently fortunate in that your exposure to extreem abrasives
is one where you apparently don't have the stuff slung in your face on a
constant basis. I constantly have muddy and sandy slurry in my face and
cannot stop to rinse it off, so it often dries on. (I often CANNOT let
go of what I'm doing)
Dried on mud and fine sandy deposits do NOT just rinse off, so the
scratches, as careful as I am in cleaning my polycarbonate glasses, the
scratches still aren't avoidable.
....And where I get my glasses, they charge almost DOUBLE for glass lenses.
Bill

In article qwx5f.11743$MN6.3431@fed1read04, BillP
wrote:

Robin S. wrote:

I have prescription safety glasses and I work with abrasives every day,
both
silicon carbide and aluminium oxide stones and paper/cloth, wheels, etc. I
have no scratches on my glasses and have had them for nearly two years.

Mine are made by AOSafety and have the thicker lenses (as opposed to the
polycarbonate). They're thicker but I think cost less. It occurs to me now
that they might be more scratch resistant (important where I work).

Regards,

Robin



Robin-
You're apparently fortunate in that your exposure to extreem abrasives
is one where you apparently don't have the stuff slung in your face on a
constant basis. I constantly have muddy and sandy slurry in my face and
cannot stop to rinse it off, so it often dries on. (I often CANNOT let
go of what I'm doing)
Dried on mud and fine sandy deposits do NOT just rinse off, so the
scratches, as careful as I am in cleaning my polycarbonate glasses, the
scratches still aren't avoidable.
...And where I get my glasses, they charge almost DOUBLE for glass lenses.
Bill

ONLY double???

The place I went for mine wanted nearly triple the price of
polycarbonate, then an extra $70 on top of it for a "scratch-guard"
coating, *PLUS* an extra week and $40 for what they called a "drop test"
(involving some sort of "calibrated" ball bearing being dropped on each
lens from some specific height after it was completed, which they
claimed was FDA-mandated for all glass lenses) that had no guarantees of
not smashing the lenses and having to start over from sratch.

They got told to keep the glass, much as I hate the damn scratch-happy
plastic lenses.

--
Don Bruder - - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004.
Short form: I'm trashing EVERY E-mail that doesn't contain a password in the
subject unless it comes from a "whitelisted" (pre-approved by me) address.
See http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html for full details.

...And where I get my glasses, they charge almost DOUBLE for glass lenses.
Bill


ONLY double???

The place I went for mine wanted nearly triple the price of
polycarbonate, then an extra $70 on top of it for a "scratch-guard"
coating, *PLUS* an extra week and $40 for what they called a "drop test"
(involving some sort of "calibrated" ball bearing being dropped on each
lens from some specific height after it was completed, which they
claimed was FDA-mandated for all glass lenses) that had no guarantees of
not smashing the lenses and having to start over from sratch.

They got told to keep the glass, much as I hate the damn scratch-happy
plastic lenses.


....Chuckle.... well, Don, I spoke for when this took place... at LEAST a
dozen years, or more, ago. It may well have been 3X the poly price, but
I do remember it was just out of the question at the time.... and now.
SBT....

Bill

...And where I get my glasses, they charge almost DOUBLE for glass lenses.
Bill

Gee wizz. I remember the days when glass was standard and they charged
double for polycarb... and I'm not that old!

chuck

Chuck Sherwood wrote:
...And where I get my glasses, they charge almost DOUBLE for glass lenses.
Bill


Gee wizz. I remember the days when glass was standard and they charged
double for polycarb... and I'm not that old!

chuck

Have to agree that poly was more at one time... Cutting edge stuff
usually is.

Time/Life does pass quickly...Eh, Chuck?
It's like a roll of toilet paper... the closer ya get to the end, the
faster it goes!! Ya just don't know which is the last "sheet".

Bill

"Don Bruder" wrote in message
...
In article qwx5f.11743$MN6.3431@fed1read04, BillP
You're apparently fortunate in that your exposure to extreem abrasives
is one where you apparently don't have the stuff slung in your face on a
constant basis. I constantly have muddy and sandy slurry in my face and
cannot stop to rinse it off, so it often dries on. (I often CANNOT let
go of what I'm doing)
Dried on mud and fine sandy deposits do NOT just rinse off, so the
scratches, as careful as I am in cleaning my polycarbonate glasses, the
scratches still aren't avoidable.
...And where I get my glasses, they charge almost DOUBLE for glass
lenses.
Bill

ONLY double???

The place I went for mine wanted nearly triple the price of
polycarbonate, then an extra $70 on top of it for a "scratch-guard"
coating, *PLUS* an extra week and $40 for what they called a "drop test"
(involving some sort of "calibrated" ball bearing being dropped on each
lens from some specific height after it was completed, which they
claimed was FDA-mandated for all glass lenses) that had no guarantees of
not smashing the lenses and having to start over from sratch.

They got told to keep the glass, much as I hate the damn scratch-happy
plastic lenses.


Several points here. If an optician is charging double or triple for glass
lenses you should find another optician. The glass does not cost them much
more than the plastic if anything.

Also never opt for scratch resistant coating on glass lenses. It is a waste
of money.

Myself I do not buy plastic lenses anymore. I killed one set in two weeks
and the second set in two days. If I have to wait for glass I will. The
last place I went to get glasses (Wal-Mart) wanted to charge me extra for
glass I was about ready to go somewhere else when I had the foresight to ask
about the safety glasses. In their pricing structure, they actually charged
less for the thicker safety lens and less for the much more durable safety
frames than they did for the regular kind. When I enquired why, I was met
with a very confused look.

I had a friend that was an optician and a lot of the things they do are for
the convenience of the optician. As an example the edger they use to trim
the lens down to fit the chosen frame is the same for glass as it is for
plastic, but if the place only has one machine then they have to farm out
the glass lens work to an outside lab. (It is still pretty cheap to do
this.) Also with glass lenses they don't get the opportunity to sell you
anti-glare and progressive tints or scratch coating.

One thing I always do is I always get silicone nose pads and spring hinges.
I have a fairly large pair of glasses with the thicker safety glass lenses
and when these are properly adjusted they don't give me any red marks on my
nose or slip off my face, even in the hot sun when I am sweating like a pig.
The real light weight frames are for me, a stinking joke. They constantly
go out of adjustment because they lack the structural integrity needed to
stand up to a little abuse.
--

Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.

You want scratch resistance and you want it now? Try the close cousin
to the armor, aluminum oxide. Used for bar scanner windows. Very
scratch resistant, maybe not as good as this new armour, but good.

Someone here was offering samples at one time. A place that grinds
lenses for eye glasses could probably make you some lenses. They use
diamond wheels for regular glass.


Dan

Beam me up Scotty - when they flew back in time to pick up a Hump back whale.
Needed Transparent Al.... Scotty provided a local glass company owner the special spec
for the sample slabs.

Computer ::: Oh Computer :: - what is this thing - picks up mouse - looks at keyboard
and flexes fingers.....

Martin
Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



Lew Hartswick wrote:
Larry Jaques wrote:


Scotty is rolling over in his grave at this revelation of his
Transparent Aluminum for non-whale-retrieval use.


Larry, I don't recognize the reference.
Please elucidate.
Use e-mail if you think it appropiate. :-)
...lew...

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 12:47:12 -0700, BillP wrote:


Yep... Even if the stuff IS suitable for applications like eyeglasses,
there's still the "military lag" factor... Us civilians likely won't see
any benefit from it for years, if ever.


Ayyyup!
Bill

Just like mini computers and transistors.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 12:47:12 -0700, BillP wrote:


Yep... Even if the stuff IS suitable for applications like eyeglasses,
there's still the "military lag" factor... Us civilians likely won't see
any benefit from it for years, if ever.


Ayyyup!
Bill

Just like mini computers and transistors.

Gunner

I'll go further and say, like just about everything we use in our lives.
Despite the chorus of "War, what is it good for?" from all the blathering
"peaceniks", human conflict (or conflict avoidance through superior military
strength) has driven virtually every significant technological advance since
the dawn of civilization through today. Mind you, I'm not advocating
warmongering for the sake of driving innovation. I'm just reporting the
facts (before the social revisionists rewrite human history).

wrote in message
oups.com...

You want scratch resistance and you want it now? Try the close cousin
to the armor, aluminum oxide. Used for bar scanner windows.

Also known as corundum. This is the stuff sapphires and rubies are made of
(with different impurities creating the different colors). In fact, there
are watch makers that use corundum crystals for their watches (usually
marketed as "synthetic sapphire" crystals).

Looks like it already available in the right forms. Yoy might just have
t ask for a price

http://www.surmet.com/docs/Processing_ALON.pdf

BillP wrote:


Yep... Even if the stuff IS suitable for applications like
eyeglasses, there's still the "military lag" factor... Us civilians
likely won't see any benefit from it for years, if ever.


Ayyyup!
Bill

Don Bruder wrote:


The part that grabs my attention (as a wearer of corrective lenses not
in contact with the eyeball) is that whole "scratch resistance" thing...
I'm forever cussing at the cost involved in replacing a set of glasses
due to the "fog" of scratches that sooner or later collect on my lenses,
regardless of how carefully I handle them.

If this stuff can be worked into lenses, I'd be thrilled to have a set
made out of it, since it might *FINALLY* mean I'd get to look through
scratch-free lenses for more than the first few weeks after getting a
new pair...


Isn't Aluminum oxide Sapphire? Don't know what percentage of nitrogen
they are talking about, but if I remember right pure Sapphire (straight
aluminum and oxygen) are transparent- color is due to various
impurities. I know sapphire is used for infrared lenses and windows. I
see no reason similar materials cannot be used for lenses, but one must
check the dispersion charactoristics to see if result would give too
much chromatic aberration.

BillP wrote:

Yep... Even if the stuff IS suitable for applications like eyeglasses,
there's still the "military lag" factor... Us civilians likely won't
see any benefit from it for years, if ever.


Ayyyup!
Bill

I can remember many technologies where the lag has been in the other
direction. Sometimes getting a new material or new electronic
technology through the mil spec certification means that military
applications lag civil ones. Transistor is a good example.

Same with ICs. While I did not work directly on the VHSIC program,
others in my group did, and it was funny to see commercial ICs come out
that were better, more transistors, and fast before the results of the
VHSIC program ever made it to production.

There were, and still are, commercial values for high tech electronics.
I also remember seeing carbon fiber make it to commercial uses before
it was used in production military aircraft.

In article ,
"DeepDiver" wrote:

wrote in message
oups.com...

You want scratch resistance and you want it now? Try the close cousin
to the armor, aluminum oxide. Used for bar scanner windows.

Also known as corundum.

I believe you probably meant "carborundum"...

This is the stuff sapphires and rubies are made of

It is.

(with different impurities creating the different colors). In fact, there

Also correct.

are watch makers that use corundum crystals for their watches (usually
marketed as "synthetic sapphire" crystals).

I would imagine those are only used on "high end" watches - Stuff on a
par with Rolex and similar. I can't see them being used on anything that
isn't already toting a hefty, if not grossly oversized, price-tag.

--
Don Bruder - - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004.
Short form: I'm trashing EVERY E-mail that doesn't contain a password in the
subject unless it comes from a "whitelisted" (pre-approved by me) address.
See http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html for full details.

On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 12:55:36 -0700, BillP wrote:
Snip
Dried on mud and fine sandy deposits do NOT just rinse off, so the
scratches, as careful as I am in cleaning my polycarbonate glasses, the
scratches still aren't avoidable.
...And where I get my glasses, they charge almost DOUBLE for glass lenses.
Bill

Would an ultrasonic cleaning bath be any good ? I use mine for
cleaning crap off models and will have to try it on reading glasses
as I now have to use them since my cararact operation.
Alan
in beautiful Golden Bay, Western Oz, South 32.25.42, East 115.45.44 GMT+8
VK6 YAB ICQ 6581610 to reply, change oz to au in address

In article ,
says...
In article ,
"DeepDiver" wrote:

wrote in message
oups.com...

You want scratch resistance and you want it now? Try the close cousin
to the armor, aluminum oxide. Used for bar scanner windows.

Also known as corundum.

I believe you probably meant "carborundum"...


Corundum is natural crystalline aluminum oxide, Carborundum
is a tradename for manmade silicon carbide.

Ned Simmons

I believe Seiko uses sapphire crystals for their watches. While the
retail price is pretty high, you can get a new Seiko for under $25 on
ebay.

Dan

Alan!
Yes, the ultrasonic cleaning does a goog job at home in the wife's
jewelry cleaner, I haven't the luxury in the field.... several times per
day!....
Thx!!
Bill


wrote:
On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 12:55:36 -0700, BillP wrote:
Snip

Dried on mud and fine sandy deposits do NOT just rinse off, so the
scratches, as careful as I am in cleaning my polycarbonate glasses, the
scratches still aren't avoidable.
...And where I get my glasses, they charge almost DOUBLE for glass lenses.
Bill


Would an ultrasonic cleaning bath be any good ? I use mine for
cleaning crap off models and will have to try it on reading glasses
as I now have to use them since my cararact operation.
Alan
in beautiful Golden Bay, Western Oz, South 32.25.42, East 115.45.44 GMT+8
VK6 YAB ICQ 6581610 to reply, change oz to au in address

It depends a lot on how big the civilian market is and actual
production cost.
I think transistors were being used in consumer portable radios while
the Army still was using tubes in walkie talkies. Kevlar was used in
tires long before NASA would use it. No mil spec.

Dan


Don Stauffer wrote:
BillP wrote:

Yep... Even if the stuff IS suitable for applications like eyeglasses,
there's still the "military lag" factor... Us civilians likely won't
see any benefit from it for years, if ever.


Ayyyup!
Bill

I can remember many technologies where the lag has been in the other
direction. Sometimes getting a new material or new electronic
technology through the mil spec certification means that military
applications lag civil ones. Transistor is a good example.

"Roger Shoaf" wrote in message
...

"Don Bruder" wrote in message
...
One thing I always do is I always get silicone nose pads and spring
hinges.
I have a fairly large pair of glasses with the thicker safety glass lenses
and when these are properly adjusted they don't give me any red marks on
my
nose or slip off my face, even in the hot sun when I am sweating like a
pig.
The real light weight frames are for me, a stinking joke. They constantly
go out of adjustment because they lack the structural integrity needed to
stand up to a little abuse.

there's a very lightweight metal that mine are made of that are bendable.
some sort of titanium alloy i think they told me. they're the lightest i've
ever had, stay in adjustment (as i have NEVER had to have them realigned,
unlike my previous sets of glasses), and i can twist them into a knot and
they bend, but spring back to shape. costs more, of course, but after a few
head plants skiing, they pay for themselves.

regards,
charlie
http://glassartists.org/chaniarts

On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 08:11:57 GMT, "DeepDiver"
wrote:

"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 12:47:12 -0700, BillP wrote:


Yep... Even if the stuff IS suitable for applications like eyeglasses,
there's still the "military lag" factor... Us civilians likely won't see
any benefit from it for years, if ever.


Ayyyup!
Bill

Just like mini computers and transistors.

Gunner

I'll go further and say, like just about everything we use in our lives.
Despite the chorus of "War, what is it good for?" from all the blathering
"peaceniks", human conflict (or conflict avoidance through superior military
strength) has driven virtually every significant technological advance since
the dawn of civilization through today. Mind you, I'm not advocating
warmongering for the sake of driving innovation. I'm just reporting the
facts (before the social revisionists rewrite human history).

And we of course cannot leave out the spin offs in medical. Not just
the toys, but the basic treatments.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

On 20 Oct 2005 08:28:13 -0700, wrote:
I believe Seiko uses sapphire crystals for their watches. While the
retail price is pretty high, you can get a new Seiko for under $25 on
ebay.

....from some guy in China with a feedback rating of 3?

Larry Jaques wrote:

Larry, I don't recognize the reference.
Please elucidate.
Use e-mail if you think it appropiate. :-)
...lew...

SHAME ON YOU!!!

"Gunner" wrote in message Does anyone
remember in the Star Trek movie..where Scottie gives that
fellow a hint about transparent aluminum......

G

Gunner

And just WHERE do you think THIS guy got the idea?

In article ,
Ned Simmons wrote:

In article ,
says...
In article ,
"DeepDiver" wrote:

wrote in message
oups.com...

You want scratch resistance and you want it now? Try the close cousin
to the armor, aluminum oxide. Used for bar scanner windows.

Also known as corundum.

I believe you probably meant "carborundum"...


Corundum is natural crystalline aluminum oxide, Carborundum
is a tradename for manmade silicon carbide.

Ned Simmons


Ahhh... OK. There lies my confusion. I knew with certainty that both are
used for abrasives, at least

--
Don Bruder - - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004.
Short form: I'm trashing EVERY E-mail that doesn't contain a password in the
subject unless it comes from a "whitelisted" (pre-approved by me) address.
See http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html for full details.

Sapphire is grown in boules. Like Semiconductor - from a bath and a rotating crystal.
Massive boules can be made - some large 'windows' have been cut.
These are used in High voltage, High energy applications that heat and beams won't
shatter be compatible with glass. Many 'things' eat glass for lunch.

Martin

Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



wrote:
I believe Seiko uses sapphire crystals for their watches. While the
retail price is pretty high, you can get a new Seiko for under $25 on
ebay.

Dan


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Corundum -- Al2O3 Hematite Group - Sapphire is a color type gem that isn't red - ruby is red.
Other colors are sapphire - blue( star), black (star), yellow, ....
also known as corundum, magnetite, hematite, and spinel.

That is first year Mineralogy class. Useful when trading stones...

Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



Don Stauffer wrote:
Don Bruder wrote:


The part that grabs my attention (as a wearer of corrective lenses not
in contact with the eyeball) is that whole "scratch resistance"
thing... I'm forever cussing at the cost involved in replacing a set
of glasses due to the "fog" of scratches that sooner or later collect
on my lenses, regardless of how carefully I handle them.
If this stuff can be worked into lenses, I'd be thrilled to have a set
made out of it, since it might *FINALLY* mean I'd get to look through
scratch-free lenses for more than the first few weeks after getting a
new pair...


Isn't Aluminum oxide Sapphire? Don't know what percentage of nitrogen
they are talking about, but if I remember right pure Sapphire (straight
aluminum and oxygen) are transparent- color is due to various
impurities. I know sapphire is used for infrared lenses and windows. I
see no reason similar materials cannot be used for lenses, but one must
check the dispersion charactoristics to see if result would give too
much chromatic aberration.

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http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----