"Ignoramus25589" wrote in message
...
I will soon need to crimp many terminals on many short, but thick, 1
gauge or 0 gauge cables.

Crimpers are just too expensive.

Is there some way to get acceptable crimps without a crimper.

I guess, also, that I could buy one on ebay and later sell it, but I
would prefer to avoid that.

i


Solder

On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 16:19:44 GMT, the renowned "Tom Gardner"
wrote:


"Ignoramus25589" wrote in message
...
I will soon need to crimp many terminals on many short, but thick, 1
gauge or 0 gauge cables.

Crimpers are just too expensive.

Is there some way to get acceptable crimps without a crimper.

I guess, also, that I could buy one on ebay and later sell it, but I
would prefer to avoid that.

i


Solder

For very, very low values of "acceptable". ;-)


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

"Spehro Pefhany" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 16:19:44 GMT, the renowned "Tom Gardner"
wrote:


"Ignoramus25589" wrote in message
...
I will soon need to crimp many terminals on many short, but thick, 1
gauge or 0 gauge cables.

Crimpers are just too expensive.

Is there some way to get acceptable crimps without a crimper.

I guess, also, that I could buy one on ebay and later sell it, but I
would prefer to avoid that.

i


Solder

For very, very low values of "acceptable". ;-)

I agree. A good mechanical connection is preferred.

Harold

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
. ..

"Ignoramus25589" wrote in message
...
I will soon need to crimp many terminals on many short, but thick, 1
gauge or 0 gauge cables.

Crimpers are just too expensive.

Is there some way to get acceptable crimps without a crimper.

I guess, also, that I could buy one on ebay and later sell it, but I
would prefer to avoid that.

i


Solder

Soldering, correctly done, is probably the best method for electrical
conductance, but solder isn't an acceptable mechanical joint. In many code
jurisdictions, soldering is prohibited -- mostly because many people won't
or can't do it well, but also because of the mechanical weakness of the
joint.

They always taught us in electronics schools, "Make a secure mechanical-wrap
before soldering; solder isn't glue."

LLoyd

In article , Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
says...

They always taught us in electronics schools, "Make a secure mechanical-wrap
before soldering; solder isn't glue."

Oddly this is actually incorrect. Yep, they taught the wrong
thing, but it is so widely accepted nobody ever questions the
mil-spec 'wrap three times before soldering' approach.

To convince yourself otherwise, make a simple lap joint using
stranded wire, with the lap being only two or three wire
diameters. Copper wire of course.

Then tension the joint until it fails by pulling on the wire
ends.

The joint does not come apart, even with standard 60/40 lead tin
solder.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

jim rozen wrote:
In article , Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
says...


They always taught us in electronics schools, "Make a secure mechanical-wrap
before soldering; solder isn't glue."


Oddly this is actually incorrect. Yep, they taught the wrong
thing, but it is so widely accepted nobody ever questions the
mil-spec 'wrap three times before soldering' approach.

To convince yourself otherwise, make a simple lap joint using
stranded wire, with the lap being only two or three wire
diameters. Copper wire of course.

Then tension the joint until it fails by pulling on the wire
ends.

The joint does not come apart, even with standard 60/40 lead tin
solder.

Jim


Perhaps, but solder work-hardens ... a LOT. If the joint is subject to
even slight vibration or flexure, the solder-only joint will eventually
fail. Maybe sooner than later. The reason for the mechanical connection
is to rigidize the joint before applying the solder. Then the solder is
NOT subject to excessive flexure.

This has become less important in most modern electronics, where the
solder joints have little mechnaical strain applied to them (due to the
tiny size and weight of many components).

Similar things can be said for corrosion and thermal expansion in the
solder joint.

Dan Mitchell
============

On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 16:05:05 -0400, the renowned "Daniel A. Mitchell"
wrote:

jim rozen wrote:
In article , Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
says...


They always taught us in electronics schools, "Make a secure mechanical-wrap
before soldering; solder isn't glue."


Oddly this is actually incorrect. Yep, they taught the wrong
thing, but it is so widely accepted nobody ever questions the
mil-spec 'wrap three times before soldering' approach.

To convince yourself otherwise, make a simple lap joint using
stranded wire, with the lap being only two or three wire
diameters. Copper wire of course.

Then tension the joint until it fails by pulling on the wire
ends.

The joint does not come apart, even with standard 60/40 lead tin
solder.

Jim


Perhaps, but solder work-hardens ... a LOT.

It certainly cold flows a lot.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

In article , Spehro Pefhany says...

Perhaps, but solder work-hardens ... a LOT.

It certainly cold flows a lot.

I've never seen it cold flow, either, for that matter.

Not to be disagreeable but I've used simple lap joints in
vehicle electrics for *years* with no ill effects.
They don't embrittle and snap, they don't turn to
putty and ooze apart. At least none of mine have.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

In article , Daniel A. Mitchell says...

Perhaps, but solder work-hardens ... a LOT.

I don't think that alloy shows work hardening.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

jim rozen wrote:

In article , Daniel A. Mitchell says...


Perhaps, but solder work-hardens ... a LOT.


I don't think that alloy shows work hardening.

Jim


Agreed that the term 'work hardening' (in a metallurgy sense) was ill
used. Fatigue would be a better term.

What I meant was that it loses it's ductility, fatigues (crystallizes)
under flexure, and loses it's integrity to such an extent that the joint
fails mechanically (as well as electrically).

The composition of the particular solder used has a lot to do with this.
High lead solders fatigue more than high tin solders. The addition of
some silver can increase the ductility.

Many solder joints can be disconnected by merely flexing them a few
times. Add heavy components, ill mounted and free to move around
(including the cables themselves), and the joints will likely fail due
to fatigue. That's the reason for the strong mechanical mounting of all
components including the cables ... it relieves the sensitive solder
joint of much of this strain, flexure, and vibration.

As stated, the much less massive components now used, as well as PC
Boards and other modern mounting techniques, have greatly reduced the
need for such strong mechanical mounting. It was the norm for most good
soldering circa W.W.-II however.

Dan Mitchell
============

Perhaps, but solder work-hardens ... a LOT. If the joint is subject to
even slight vibration or flexure, the solder-only joint will eventually
fail.

I have personally fixed a few "cold" joints in old TVs just by
reheating the solder joint. I suspect the failed connection was
related to mechanical stress.

"Chuck Sherwood" wrote in message
...
Perhaps, but solder work-hardens ... a LOT. If the joint is subject to
even slight vibration or flexure, the solder-only joint will eventually
fail.

I have personally fixed a few "cold" joints in old TVs just by
reheating the solder joint. I suspect the failed connection was
related to mechanical stress.

More likely due to corrosion. I've experienced such a phenomenon on a
microphone input, which had started acting as a detector and sending a radio
station to the amplifier. "Honest, Mr. Madsen, I didn't have a radio on
while I was running the sound system."

I was vindicated when I found the corroded connection.

Harold

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Lloyd E.
Sponenburgh
says...

They always taught us in electronics schools, "Make a secure
mechanical-wrap
before soldering; solder isn't glue."

Oddly this is actually incorrect. Yep, they taught the wrong
thing, but it is so widely accepted nobody ever questions the
mil-spec 'wrap three times before soldering' approach.

To convince yourself otherwise, make a simple lap joint using
stranded wire, with the lap being only two or three wire
diameters. Copper wire of course.

Then tension the joint until it fails by pulling on the wire
ends.

The joint does not come apart, even with standard 60/40 lead tin
solder.


Aw, Jim! I'm not parrotting some mantra I heard a few times. I was a pro
in electronics for decades until I retired, then started a new business.

A solder joint may start out stronger than the wire -- if you do some
'overlap' as you cite. (But that's not a compact joint.) But solder
strength deteriorates with age and mechanical and thermal cycling.

If you don't provide a mechanical joint before soldering you are
deliberately inviting a failure down the road. Since I've seen many
thousands of such failures, that's not speculation on my part.

LLoyd

In article , Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
says...

Aw, Jim! I'm not parrotting some mantra I heard a few times. I was a pro
in electronics for decades until I retired, then started a new business.

I've been a pro the business too, for decades. Still am in fact.
And I've never seen solder joints simply deteriorate over time for
no reason. If exposed to weather or chemicals, yes. But then even
a triple wrapped tube socket will come undone if you leave it out in the
rain for a few years.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Lloyd E.
Sponenburgh
says...

Aw, Jim! I'm not parrotting some mantra I heard a few times. I was a
pro
in electronics for decades until I retired, then started a new business.

I've been a pro the business too, for decades. Still am in fact.
And I've never seen solder joints simply deteriorate over time for
no reason.

But I didn't say, "for no reason". A solder joint never exposed to heat,
oxidation, or mechanical stress will last virtually forever. That's not the
case with joints in most 'normal' physical environments.

A tour through the insides of an old BC-458 will give you a good look at how
well soldering can be done for _rugged_ use. An old "Silvertone" Sears TV
will show you the opposing case study.

LLoyd

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote in message
.. .

| Soldering, correctly done, is probably the best method for electrical
| conductance, but solder isn't an acceptable mechanical joint. In many
code
| jurisdictions, soldering is prohibited -- mostly because many people won't
| or can't do it well, but also because of the mechanical weakness of the
| joint.
|
| They always taught us in electronics schools, "Make a secure
mechanical-wrap
| before soldering; solder isn't glue."
|
| LLoyd

I stayed out of this one to see what would come up, but what I've seen
and worked has yet to be mentioned, so I'll offer my experience:

1. Cold joints started out as bad from the very beginning. It's only by
luck that they passed through life without causing a problem, so it's not a
matter of _if_ they fail, it's when. Only when corrosion and moisture can
work its way down inside the joint defect will the mechanical contact that
got the joint by for so long will send the joint into final electrical
failure. You can go a long way towards not having cold joint problems by
using eutectic solder (63/37) which doesn't have that temperature zone the
joint passes through where movement will cause crystallization and
separation of one component of the alloy. I can't recall for sure which
component has a lower melting point (tin?) that will crystallize.
2. What we often call a cold joint is really an incomplete flow of the
joint, in other words, a bad fillet with insufficient wetting. The flux
can't be removed from inside the joint, so eventually the above failure mode
pops up. Often there's a mechanical failure involved, too. Flux has this
lovely habit of attracting moisture, which is why the flux must be removed.
Acid fluxes are very bad for electrical and electronic connections for
similar reasons.
3. Stranded wires and soldering are rarely a good idea unless the wire
connection can be supported. If soldering stranded wires, a heat sink
should be used to prevent wicking of solder up inside the strands of the
wire. Where the rigid solder-soaked strands stop and flexible wire begins
there will be a spot highly prone to fatigue, and a guaranteed place to
break. When soldering stranded wires to terminations for whatever reason,
you MUST provide mechanical support, either in the form of a shrink
sleeving, mechanical support such as ties or clamps, or whatever suits the
application. It's more expensive tooling-wise to crimp wires, but the
strands have an evenly tapered flex section that distributes mechanical
movement over a larger part of the wire, thus reducing fatigue. Soldering
solid wire strands to a terminal is no big deal, usually, since the wire
itself is the mechanical support, but only in purely static equipment will
solid wiring ever be used. It's also a lot harder to work with, as many
know.
4. For the sake of welding cable, flexibility and high current capacity is
the reason for the high strand count. The less strands you have for a given
outside diameter the less circular area (thus ampacity) and less flexibility
you have. Since the individual strands are that much smaller, crimping is
even more critical due to the lower individual strength of the strands,
which will flake away at a soldered joint where the wicking ends. You can
support the wire all you want, but for the hassle of keeping the wire from
wicking and providing mechanical support either way, crimping is the more
reliable way to go hands down.
5. When the solder joint itself is the sole point of mechanical support, the
solder alloy will fatigue, work harden, and fail just like any other metal
will. Since the solder is so much softer than the metal it's joining, the
conductor needs the mechanical support (either inside or out of the joint)
to prevent the solder from being a stressed part of the connection.
Electronic technicians are familiar with large components on circuit boards
that must have mechanical support to keep things from ripping apart. I
recall capacitors on an A-4 upper beacon which was always coming in with
broken solder joints. I started securing it with a tie and RTV and never
had one of my own repairs ever come back to me. How the A-4 managed to have
a service life of over thirty years and not have that corrected baffles me
still.

I really like what's called copalum splices and terminals, even for copper
wire, because the intense pressure actually causes the aluminum to flow into
and around the wire completely, making a 100% sealed and perfect connection,
but they aren't cheap and the tooling even worse. The high quality of the
connection is the reason they're used for aluminum terminals, since the lack
of any resistance or corrosion entry point prevents any thermal movement
which causes fatigue and fires and gave aluminum wiring a very bad name. The
terminals allow aluminum wire to work to its best adantages.

If I made a boo-boo or need correction/clarification somewhere, by all
means have at it!

This thread is almost over and everyone will go home without anyones
mind being changed. But I will put in my bit anyway.

I think making a mechanical connection before soldering is usually a
good thing. Not because it is needed after the joint is soldered, but
because it prevents any movement while the joint is cooling. You all
have seen the frosty look of a joint that was moved as the solder
solidified. So I agree with Jim that a mechanical joint is not
necessary, but it may prevent a " cold ' solder joint.

And then I agree with Carl too. A solder joint is only so strong. If
it is being mechanically stressed very much it will fail.
But if the solder is only supporting a short bit of wire, the stress
will be well below the yield point of the solder, and you won't have
any fatigue problems.

And I think the reason you should not tin stranded wires being held by
screws, is not so much that solder cold flows, but you do have thermal
changes to contend with.
You get the solder deforming when there is expansion, and then oxygen
can get in when there is contraction.

Dan