The bottom of my 30,000 gallon fish pond is full of sludge and fish s^&t. I
want to try to make a venturi style sump pump. These pumps are extremely
simple. They work by using a high pressure water jet to move a large volume
of water at low pressure.

Here's a little bitty one:
http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/...d/2556/cid/750

Here's one for a basement sump application:
http://www.pumpbiz.com/products/inde...&series_id=820

Here's one moving tens of thousands gpm:
http://tech.praqua.com/pdf/nb/2001/MayJune01.pdf

For my job, I have a 10 gpm 400 psi piston pump (tractor PTO driven hypro
model 5200). I have a 2" suction hose fifty feet long. I'm thinking of
building the pump into a 4" plastic sewer pipe Tee. The bottom of the Tee
would be the suction inlet. The right of the Tee would have the high
pressure water nozzle. The left of the Tee would be the outlet. It would
look just like the unit in the first link only a bit bigger.

I need design help. Specifically what size orifice should I try for the high
pressure outlet. And where should the orifice be located. Also 4" ID of the
tee is probably too large, what would be the best ID to use? Any other
suggestions?

Karl

If you are located near a gold mining or an old gold mining area go to
a shop that sells sucker dredges. They might even rent you a venturi.
Also google KEENE [sp] they are a big mfg of such. The older ones I
used were not very sophisticated. I built a 4" one fed by 1 1/2" hose
necked down to 3/4" aimed into the 4" at about20 to 30 deg.
Hope this helps.

Chuck P.

I'm no expert on these but most of the water well jet pumps have a
fairly high percentage of inlet water to outlet water. Someting on the
order of 1/2 the output is pumped down the well. The other thing is that
the the pressure is not that high. So you need high volume, medium
pressure.

For your 10 gpm pump I consider using one of those garden hose "sweep"
nozzels. I have an all brass one, one piece, approximately 3/8" inside
diameter necking down to a bit over 3/16" (or build your own) Your pump
is higher pressure, I'd shink the outlet to around 1/8" to max out the
capability of pump. You want max pressure and max volume. Make a couple,
cut the end off until the performance drops, cut a fresh one to the
optimum length.

With only 10 gm, I'd guess that you don't want much over 1-1/2" pipe as
your outlet in the orifice area. Smaller diameter will give you higher
outlet pressure. How much head do you need? It works better if the
pressure blast goes directly down the center of the output tube. A
somewhat longer outlet tube (perhaps 10x the diameter) should help
couple your high pressure blast to the inlet water.

Cheers.

Karl Townsend wrote:
The bottom of my 30,000 gallon fish pond is full of sludge and fish s^&t. I
want to try to make a venturi style sump pump. These pumps are extremely
simple. They work by using a high pressure water jet to move a large volume
of water at low pressure.

Here's a little bitty one:
http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/...d/2556/cid/750

Here's one for a basement sump application:
http://www.pumpbiz.com/products/inde...&series_id=820

Here's one moving tens of thousands gpm:
http://tech.praqua.com/pdf/nb/2001/MayJune01.pdf

For my job, I have a 10 gpm 400 psi piston pump (tractor PTO driven hypro
model 5200). I have a 2" suction hose fifty feet long. I'm thinking of
building the pump into a 4" plastic sewer pipe Tee. The bottom of the Tee
would be the suction inlet. The right of the Tee would have the high
pressure water nozzle. The left of the Tee would be the outlet. It would
look just like the unit in the first link only a bit bigger.

I need design help. Specifically what size orifice should I try for the high
pressure outlet. And where should the orifice be located. Also 4" ID of the
tee is probably too large, what would be the best ID to use? Any other
suggestions?

Karl

....
I'm no expert on these but most of the water well jet pumps have a fairly
high percentage of inlet water to outlet water. Someting on the order of
1/2 the output is pumped down the well. The other thing is that the the
pressure is not that high. So you need high volume, medium pressure.

I also have a 15 hp. irrigation pump I could use as the pressure supply. It
puts out 140 gpm at 125 psi . I thought this was overkill, but I don't care.
I need to create maximum suction and have large opennings. The stuff at
the bottom of the pond is liquid but very heavy - moose muck. I sucked a
rock into my centrifical trash pump and stalled it. (Kids LOVE to throw
rocks in water - skip-skip-skip) Would this work better??

Karl




For your 10 gpm pump I consider using one of those garden hose "sweep"
nozzels. I have an all brass one, one piece, approximately 3/8" inside
diameter necking down to a bit over 3/16" (or build your own) Your pump is
higher pressure, I'd shink the outlet to around 1/8" to max out the
capability of pump. You want max pressure and max volume. Make a couple,
cut the end off until the performance drops, cut a fresh one to the
optimum length.

With only 10 gm, I'd guess that you don't want much over 1-1/2" pipe as
your outlet in the orifice area. Smaller diameter will give you higher
outlet pressure. How much head do you need? It works better if the
pressure blast goes directly down the center of the output tube. A
somewhat longer outlet tube (perhaps 10x the diameter) should help couple
your high pressure blast to the inlet water.

If anyone knows of a source for this (cheap) I'd like to just buy one. I'm
in Dassel Minnesota - no gold but there is iron mines on "da range"
(Northern MN)
Karl


"MOP CAP" wrote in message
news:200820050641238792%Pilgrim6nospam@mindspring. com...
If you are located near a gold mining or an old gold mining area go to
a shop that sells sucker dredges. They might even rent you a venturi.
Also google KEENE [sp] they are a big mfg of such. The older ones I
used were not very sophisticated. I built a 4" one fed by 1 1/2" hose
necked down to 3/4" aimed into the 4" at about20 to 30 deg.
Hope this helps.

Chuck P.

I am also no expert, but I would expect that the horse power needed to
drive the pump would be the key. Fewer gallons per minute at higher
pressure would work as well as higher flow at lower pressure.

Before I built a venturi water pump I would think about draining the
pond and using a front end loader. Could you start at one place and
clean out to firm footing so you don't get stuck? Do you have a backup
plan if you do get stuck?

If you do build a venturi pump, I would scale up from a jet water pump
for the design. Probably use a smaller orfice since you are not using
a centifical pump and boot straping the output . I would also
consider another jet in front of the inlet directed to stir up the
muck. If you put a screen in front of the inlet, you could use your
trash pump to help suck the stuff through.

Dan

On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 12:34:51 GMT, "Karl Townsend"
remove .NOT to reply wrote:

The bottom of my 30,000 gallon fish pond is full of sludge and fish s^&t. I
want to try to make a venturi style sump pump. These pumps are extremely
simple. They work by using a high pressure water jet to move a large volume
of water at low pressure.

Here's a little bitty one:
http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/...d/2556/cid/750

Here's one for a basement sump application:
http://www.pumpbiz.com/products/inde...&series_id=820

Here's one moving tens of thousands gpm:
http://tech.praqua.com/pdf/nb/2001/MayJune01.pdf

For my job, I have a 10 gpm 400 psi piston pump (tractor PTO driven hypro
model 5200). I have a 2" suction hose fifty feet long. I'm thinking of
building the pump into a 4" plastic sewer pipe Tee. The bottom of the Tee
would be the suction inlet. The right of the Tee would have the high
pressure water nozzle. The left of the Tee would be the outlet. It would
look just like the unit in the first link only a bit bigger.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Hey Karl,

No expert here, but I think I'd try a 22 degree "T" first to get an
assist angle for the suction. High pressure applied straight thru,
with suction on the "angle".

Again no expert, but I would think a much higher volume pump would be
required than the 10GPM. This style stuff works but works best when
there is an over-abundance of cheap or free power system available, or
used when there is a need for low head-space/clearance or where no
electricity is allowed for sumps. I used to see them a lot in old
elevator pits with maybe only a 2" deep sump spot, before they were
outlawed by the newer plumbing codes. City water pressure to operate
them is cheaper than you can buy electicity. They don't lift "dirt
and debris" any better than a centifugal pump though, and will never
approach a guzzler type for moving trash.

Take care.

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
I need design help. Specifically what size orifice should I try for the high
pressure outlet. And where should the orifice be located. Also 4" ID of the
tee is probably too large, what would be the best ID to use? Any other
suggestions?

Karl

" wrote:

I am also no expert, but I would expect that the horse power needed to
drive the pump would be the key. Fewer gallons per minute at higher
pressure would work as well as higher flow at lower pressure.

Before I built a venturi water pump I would think about draining the
pond and using a front end loader. Could you start at one place and
clean out to firm footing so you don't get stuck? Do you have a backup
plan if you do get stuck?

If you do build a venturi pump, I would scale up from a jet water pump
for the design. Probably use a smaller orfice since you are not using
a centifical pump and boot straping the output . I would also
consider another jet in front of the inlet directed to stir up the
muck. If you put a screen in front of the inlet, you could use your
trash pump to help suck the stuff through.

Dan

I'd think "hydro-dredging" would be a lot easier than draining and using
heavy equipment, but I thing you're over engineering it with the venturi
pump idea.

Make an intake nozzle assembly to fit the suction line of your trash
pump out of sheet metal that flares out and tapers down to a long
rectangular inlet with the narrow section the same width as the solids
rating of the trash pump. Weld pieces of 1/8" rod across the opening at
the same spacing to provide support and act as an inlet screen.

Mount a suitable piece of pipe perhaps 6" back from and parallel to the
suction opening. Drill a series of holes along this pipe to act as
nozzles to shoot water back at the suction inlet. Use appropriate
fittings to provide inlet water to the jet pipe from a source inline
with the suction hose.

Cable tie your hoses together and then use your high pressure pump to
provide the jet water to loosen the sludge and push it towards the
suction and the trash pump to suck the muck up to your settling pond.
Drag the sweeper around the bottom with the hoses as needed to clear the
muck.

Ok, so that idea is over engineered as well, but I think it will work
better.

Pete C.

Moose muck requires moose horsepower. I like the idea of using a trash
pump, proper guards to keep the big crud out, and some sort of power
wash from your high pressure pump to keep things moving.

wrote:
I am also no expert, but I would expect that the horse power needed to
drive the pump would be the key. Fewer gallons per minute at higher
pressure would work as well as higher flow at lower pressure.

Before I built a venturi water pump I would think about draining the
pond and using a front end loader. Could you start at one place and
clean out to firm footing so you don't get stuck? Do you have a backup
plan if you do get stuck?

If you do build a venturi pump, I would scale up from a jet water pump
for the design. Probably use a smaller orfice since you are not using
a centifical pump and boot straping the output . I would also
consider another jet in front of the inlet directed to stir up the
muck. If you put a screen in front of the inlet, you could use your
trash pump to help suck the stuff through.

Dan

Karl Townsend wrote:
The bottom of my 30,000 gallon fish pond is full of sludge and fish
s^&t. I want to try to make a venturi style sump pump. These pumps
are extremely simple. They work by using a high pressure water jet to
move a large volume of water at low pressure.

Here's a little bitty one:
http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/...d/2556/cid/750

Here's one for a basement sump application:
http://www.pumpbiz.com/products/inde...&series_id=820

Here's one moving tens of thousands gpm:
http://tech.praqua.com/pdf/nb/2001/MayJune01.pdf

For my job, I have a 10 gpm 400 psi piston pump (tractor PTO driven
hypro model 5200). I have a 2" suction hose fifty feet long. I'm
thinking of building the pump into a 4" plastic sewer pipe Tee. The
bottom of the Tee would be the suction inlet. The right of the Tee
would have the high pressure water nozzle. The left of the Tee would be
the outlet. It
would look just like the unit in the first link only a bit bigger.

I need design help. Specifically what size orifice should I try for
the high pressure outlet. And where should the orifice be located.
Also 4" ID of the tee is probably too large, what would be the best
ID to use? Any other suggestions?

Karl

Why not use the waterpump just to loosen the 'mud' and then use an air-lift
system to suck it up the discharge pipe?
5 to 10 pounds of air (a few CFM) injected into the discharge near the inlet
will move a lot of liquid.

Ken.

If you do build a venturi pump, I would scale up from a jet water pump
for the design. Probably use a smaller orfice since you are not using
a centifical pump and boot straping the output . I would also


Based on today's discussion, I'm going to buy a 2" Y, hook the 2" suction
hose up to the slant side. Put a 1/2 pipe for a nozzle inside the acute side
of the Y and hook this up to the irrigation pump125psi 140 gpm. I'll put a
2 foot length of 2" pipe on the obtuse side of the Y for the reduced
section. And then vent to air. Fire up 15 hp irrigation pump and jump in
pond, move hose around bottom while its full. I'll make it so I can move
location of nozzle and may try difffernt lengths of obtuse side pipe. This
whole thing won't take more than an hour to build.

If it don't work at least I'll have one more trial. I've give up on the
trash pump I have - not enough ability here. A serious trash pump looks to
cost north of $1000.

Karl

Put some steel screen over the opening of the hose and you won't gather the
stones into the pump!
You should always run a pump with an input screen or you will get sheared
shafts and all kinds of other nice things in the pump!
While you are at it, take and put a minishovel on the end of the hose also
to muck about in the harder spots.

--
Why do penguins walk so far to get to their nesting grounds?

On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 12:34:51 GMT, "Karl Townsend"
remove .NOT to reply wrote:

The bottom of my 30,000 gallon fish pond is full of sludge and fish s^&t. I
want to try to make a venturi style sump pump. These pumps are extremely
simple. They work by using a high pressure water jet to move a large volume
of water at low pressure.

Here's a little bitty one:
http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/...d/2556/cid/750

Here's one for a basement sump application:
http://www.pumpbiz.com/products/inde...&series_id=820

Here's one moving tens of thousands gpm:
http://tech.praqua.com/pdf/nb/2001/MayJune01.pdf

For my job, I have a 10 gpm 400 psi piston pump (tractor PTO driven hypro
model 5200). I have a 2" suction hose fifty feet long. I'm thinking of
building the pump into a 4" plastic sewer pipe Tee. The bottom of the Tee
would be the suction inlet. The right of the Tee would have the high
pressure water nozzle. The left of the Tee would be the outlet. It would
look just like the unit in the first link only a bit bigger.

I need design help. Specifically what size orifice should I try for the high
pressure outlet. And where should the orifice be located. Also 4" ID of the
tee is probably too large, what would be the best ID to use? Any other
suggestions?

The general idea here is conservation of momentum: high-velocity
lower-volume jet transfers momentum to lower-velocity higher-volume
flow, with said transfer of momentum resulting in lower pressure but
higher volumetric flow.

That's nice -- so how big? I'd start with seeing what size tapered
nozzle your pump can deliver 10 gal/min thru at 400 PSI. That's what
I'd use as a nozzle because it "matches" the pump.

Shoot that into a larger suction and discharge tube. What size?

The delivery flow and pressure difference (inlet to outlet) will
depend on the size of the suction and discharge tube, but you'll use
what you have at hand anyway so that's where I'd start. Try it, see
how it works. I'm guessing that it'll move quite a bit of water
with 4" pipe.

Let us know what happens!

It's pointless to get too worried about design because you'll use what
you have at hand anyway. Much quicker to just see what such a
nozzle does in a 4" suction and discharge line.

....
It's pointless to get too worried about design because you'll use what
you have at hand anyway. Much quicker to just see what such a
nozzle does in a 4" suction and discharge line.

LOL You must know me pretty good. This is just what I'll do on trial one.

Still, the engineer in me likes to understand the concepts and best design.
If the idea has merit, I'll want to make a second and third run. In the case
of pond cleaning, I want to make it so its quick and easy to do.

P.S. I WILL HOB GEARS THIS WINTER

Karl

Why reinvent the wheel? You can buy a perfectly good submersible sewage
pump for about $40 at any good hardware store. It won't constantly plug
up like a venturi does. . . . constantly. All you add is hose and
power.
Bugs

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 12:13:55 GMT, "Karl Townsend"
remove .NOT to reply wrote:

...
It's pointless to get too worried about design because you'll use what
you have at hand anyway. Much quicker to just see what such a
nozzle does in a 4" suction and discharge line.

LOL You must know me pretty good. This is just what I'll do on trial one.

Still, the engineer in me likes to understand the concepts and best design.
If the idea has merit, I'll want to make a second and third run. In the case
of pond cleaning, I want to make it so its quick and easy to do.

P.S. I WILL HOB GEARS THIS WINTER

Good! I want to make an electric drive for my boatlift, may need a
gear or two! Electric boatlift drives are available, but the prices
they want are outta sight -- nearly $600 list. That's nuts! I'll
spend quite a bit of enjoyable shop time this winter rather than pop
six bills for such a gadget. Porta-Dock right there in Dassel offers
them, though I don't know if they make them there. There are several
small companies in MN that make them.

Doing some quick calculations based on conservation of energy, I
figure your 400 PSI 10 gpm jet would move about 266 gal/min thru a
differential pressure of 15 PSI. That doesn't take losses due to
turbulence into account, and these losses could be considerable.
The trick is to get the suction pipe diameter so that the energy from
the jet couples well to the discharge flow. I haven't a clue how to
calculate that, but some quick experiments should be enlightening.

I wonder if a tapered housing or venturi might work well, to minimize
circulation and turbulence where the jet meets the flow. The
high-velocity jet entrains a high velocity flow in the venturi
region which then expands to become a lower-velocity higher-pressure
flow to the discharge.

....
Good! I want to make an electric drive for my boatlift, may need a
gear or two! Electric boatlift drives are available, but the prices
they want are outta sight -- nearly $600 list. That's nuts! I'll
spend quite a bit of enjoyable shop time this winter rather than pop
six bills for such a gadget. Porta-Dock right there in Dassel offers
them, though I don't know if they make them there. There are several
small companies in MN that make them.
....
They are indeed made right here in Dassel. I know most of the folks that
work there. But, you can copy one for a tiny fraction of the retail price.


I wonder if a tapered housing or venturi might work well, to minimize
circulation and turbulence where the jet meets the flow. The
high-velocity jet entrains a high velocity flow in the venturi
region which then expands to become a lower-velocity higher-pressure
flow to the discharge.

I'll be machining a venturi insert to fit inside a large pipe for this. (
quick and dirty - drill hole and taper in piece that I can weld inside a
pipe) I took a jet pump jet apart and I'm just going to scale up and copy
the design. As I'm not concerned about flow rate but maximum suction is a
priority, I'm going to guess that the venturi should be relatively smaller
(give higher velocity to the water). As I need to allow for a 1" stone
going through, I'll keep the jet nozzel back a bit from the small part of
the venturi. I'm making it so the nozzle can be moved so I can play with
location. I'll start with a 3/16 diameter nozzle - I know the pump settles
at 175 PSI with 1/4" - just a wild guess that 3/16 will be about right.

Something like this is fun, thinking on this beats the heck out of
(watching) the drivle on TV.

Karl

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 02:13:59 GMT, "Karl Townsend"
remove .NOT to reply wrote:


...
Good! I want to make an electric drive for my boatlift, may need a
gear or two! Electric boatlift drives are available, but the prices
they want are outta sight -- nearly $600 list. That's nuts! I'll
spend quite a bit of enjoyable shop time this winter rather than pop
six bills for such a gadget. Porta-Dock right there in Dassel offers
them, though I don't know if they make them there. There are several
small companies in MN that make them.
...
They are indeed made right here in Dassel. I know most of the folks that
work there. But, you can copy one for a tiny fraction of the retail price.


I wonder if a tapered housing or venturi might work well, to minimize
circulation and turbulence where the jet meets the flow. The
high-velocity jet entrains a high velocity flow in the venturi
region which then expands to become a lower-velocity higher-pressure
flow to the discharge.

I'll be machining a venturi insert to fit inside a large pipe for this. (
quick and dirty - drill hole and taper in piece that I can weld inside a
pipe) I took a jet pump jet apart and I'm just going to scale up and copy
the design. As I'm not concerned about flow rate but maximum suction is a
priority, I'm going to guess that the venturi should be relatively smaller
(give higher velocity to the water). As I need to allow for a 1" stone
going through, I'll keep the jet nozzel back a bit from the small part of
the venturi. I'm making it so the nozzle can be moved so I can play with
location. I'll start with a 3/16 diameter nozzle - I know the pump settles
at 175 PSI with 1/4" - just a wild guess that 3/16 will be about right.

Sounds good to me!

Something like this is fun, thinking on this beats the heck out of
(watching) the drivle on TV.

Oh yeah! Hey, maybe Grissom should make a venturi out of duct tape
to suck out a cesspool for forensic evidence on CSI! "Greg, we're
looking for DNA; I think the perp spit in the sink. We have a
200-gallon sample for you....."