The original post caught my eye for some reason as it, with my admittedly
somewhat limited knowledge of US history, never-the-less seemed somehow not
very credible. Seeking a second opinion, I resubmitted the post to a
skeptics' group I subscribe to and received the following response. Offered
for FWIW.............
.................................

"This BS comes from material written by David Barton and is mostly made up.

During the 2004 campaign, he got a lot of press as he was hired by the
Republican party to appear at events and give his rather distorted version
of history.

http://www.michiganatheists.org/quotes2.html

http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/...ng.htm#MYTHING

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/boston1.htm

http://www.livingston.net/wilkyjr/link28.htm

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=David_Barton

If you really want to see some scary stuff, check out his web site.

http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/issues.php



52 of the 55 signers of The Declaration of Independence were orthodox,
deeply committed Christians.

Made up.

The same congress formed the American Bible Society. Immediately after
creating the Declaration of Independence, the Continental Congress voted
to purchase and import 20,000 copies of scripture for the people of this
nation.

Minor problem. The American Bible Society was founded in 1816 some 40
years later.

Patrick Henry wrote in 1776 "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too
often that this great nation was founded not by religionists, but by
Christians; not on religion, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For that
reason alone, people of other faiths have been afforded freedom of
worship here."

This quote has not been found in any of Henry's recorded speeches or
letters.

Thomas Jefferson wrote on the front of his well- worn Bible: "I am a
Christian, that is to say a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus. I have
little doubt that our whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of
our Creator and, I hope, to the pure doctrine of Jesus also."

"The truth is that the greatest enemies to the doctrines of Jesus are
those calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them
for the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and
without any foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come when
the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as father in the
womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of
Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But we may hope that the dawn of reason
and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this
artificial scaffolding, and restore us to the primitive and genuine
doctrines of this the most venerated reformer of human errors." -- letter
to John Adams, 11 April 1823

George Washington, the Father of our Nation, in his farewell speech on
September 19, 1796:
"It is impossible to govern the world without God and the Bible. Of all
the dispositions and habits that lead to political prosperity, our
religion and morality are the indispensable supporters. Let us with
caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without
religion. Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that our
national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."

This quote has not been found in any of his writings or speeches. It's
found in a lot of places without any valid attribution.

It should also be noted that George Washington did not give a farewell
speech in September, 1796. He gave a farewell address. It was not
spoken, it was published in a number of important newspapers and was
titled "Presidents Declination". The title 'Farewell Address" was a
headline added by one of the papers carrying the speech.

John Adams, our second president, who also served as chairman of the
American Bible Society: In an address to military leaders he said, "We
have no government armed with the power capable of contending with human
passions, unbridled by morality and true religion. Our constitution was
made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to
the government of any other."

Actually it was his son, John Quincy Adams. This quote is mentioned in
Boller & George's book "They Never Said It".


Our first Court Justice, John Jay, stated that when we select our
national leaders, if we are to preserve our Nation, we must select
Christians. "Providence has given to our people the choice of their
rulers and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of our
Christian Nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers."

Interestingly enough, during the Constitutional Congress in 1787, it was
proposed to start each day's meeting with a prayer. John Jay, one of the
most religious of the delegates rose to oppose the motion.

John Quincy Adams, son of John Adams, was the sixth U.S. President and
chairman of the American Bible Society, which he considered his highest
and most important role. On July 4, 1821, President Adams said, "The
highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected in one
indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles
of Christianity."

This quote does not appear in any of his speeches or writings. It
originally appeared in an 1860 book without quotes around it as a
paraphrase of the authors idea of what Adams believed.


Calvin Coolidge, 30th President of the United States wrote "The
foundations of our society and our government rest so much on the
teachings of the Bible that it would be difficult to support them if
faith in these teachings would cease to be practically universal in our
country."

The fundamental precept of liberty is toleration. We cannot permit any
inquisition either from within or from without the law or apply any
religious test to the holding of office. The mind of America must be
forever free. (Calvin Coolidge, 30th U. S. President [1923-1929],
Inaugural Address on March 4, 1925,

In 1782, the United States Congress voted this resolution: "The congress
of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in
all schools."

James Madison, the primary author of the Constitution of the United
States, said "We have staked the whole future of our new nation, not upon
the power of government; far from it. We have staked the future of all
our political constitutions upon the capacity of each of ourselves to
govern ourselves according to the moral principles of the Ten
Commandments.

While extensively used, this quote cannot be found among any of Madison's
speeches or writings.

Laurie, we all know that ALL of the political PR folks lie pretty much
anytime their lips are moving, both the Republicans and Democrats
alike.

Given that fact, why are you posting this?

Harry C.

wrote in message
oups.com...
Laurie, we all know that ALL of the political PR folks lie pretty much
anytime their lips are moving, both the Republicans and Democrats
alike.

Given that fact, why are you posting this?

Harry C.

Hi Harry:

Mainly because I suspected the original claims were wrong or exaggerated and
needed refutation no matter what their political perspective. As I
mentioned, I am no student of US history so I went to a source of
individuals whom I respect and trust for a counterpoint. If the original
claims were in support of the democrat/liberal viewpoint, and, were also
suspect, I likely would have acted in a similar fashion.

Now, I realize that this forum is hardly ideal for such a debate but that's
where the claims were posted so that's where I posted my response.

From a personal perspective, I believe most strongly in separation of church
and state and so take an interest in such topics, especially where the
events at issue lie in a country closely associated with my own (Canada)
and, since it is apparent (at least to me) that the US is headed in the
direction of a theocratic/authoritarian government to an extent that is
quite alarming.

At least so it seems to me..........

Laurie Forbes

Laurie Forbes wrote:

The original post caught my eye for some reason as it, with my admittedly
somewhat limited knowledge of US history, never-the-less seemed somehow not
very credible. Seeking a second opinion, I resubmitted the post to a
skeptics' group I subscribe to and received the following response. Offered
for FWIW.............
................................

"This BS comes from material written by David Barton and is mostly made up.



During the 2004 campaign, he got a lot of press as he was hired by the
Republican party to appear at events and give his rather distorted version
of history.

http://www.michiganatheists.org/quotes2.html

http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/...ng.htm#MYTHING

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/boston1.htm

http://www.livingston.net/wilkyjr/link28.htm

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=David_Barton

If you really want to see some scary stuff, check out his web site.

http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/issues.php







52 of the 55 signers of The Declaration of Independence were orthodox,
deeply committed Christians.


Made up.



The same congress formed the American Bible Society. Immediately after
creating the Declaration of Independence, the Continental Congress voted
to purchase and import 20,000 copies of scripture for the people of this
nation.


Minor problem. The American Bible Society was founded in 1816 some 40
years later.



Patrick Henry wrote in 1776 "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too
often that this great nation was founded not by religionists, but by
Christians; not on religion, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For that
reason alone, people of other faiths have been afforded freedom of
worship here."


This quote has not been found in any of Henry's recorded speeches or
letters.



Thomas Jefferson wrote on the front of his well- worn Bible: "I am a
Christian, that is to say a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus. I have
little doubt that our whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of
our Creator and, I hope, to the pure doctrine of Jesus also."


"The truth is that the greatest enemies to the doctrines of Jesus are
those calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them
for the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and
without any foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come when
the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as father in the
womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of
Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But we may hope that the dawn of reason
and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this
artificial scaffolding, and restore us to the primitive and genuine
doctrines of this the most venerated reformer of human errors." -- letter
to John Adams, 11 April 1823



George Washington, the Father of our Nation, in his farewell speech on
September 19, 1796:
"It is impossible to govern the world without God and the Bible. Of all
the dispositions and habits that lead to political prosperity, our
religion and morality are the indispensable supporters. Let us with
caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without
religion. Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that our
national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."


This quote has not been found in any of his writings or speeches. It's
found in a lot of places without any valid attribution.

It should also be noted that George Washington did not give a farewell
speech in September, 1796. He gave a farewell address. It was not
spoken, it was published in a number of important newspapers and was
titled "Presidents Declination". The title 'Farewell Address" was a
headline added by one of the papers carrying the speech.



John Adams, our second president, who also served as chairman of the
American Bible Society: In an address to military leaders he said, "We
have no government armed with the power capable of contending with human
passions, unbridled by morality and true religion. Our constitution was
made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to
the government of any other."


Actually it was his son, John Quincy Adams. This quote is mentioned in
Boller & George's book "They Never Said It".




Our first Court Justice, John Jay, stated that when we select our
national leaders, if we are to preserve our Nation, we must select
Christians. "Providence has given to our people the choice of their
rulers and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of our
Christian Nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers."


Interestingly enough, during the Constitutional Congress in 1787, it was
proposed to start each day's meeting with a prayer. John Jay, one of the
most religious of the delegates rose to oppose the motion.



John Quincy Adams, son of John Adams, was the sixth U.S. President and
chairman of the American Bible Society, which he considered his highest
and most important role. On July 4, 1821, President Adams said, "The
highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected in one
indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles
of Christianity."


This quote does not appear in any of his speeches or writings. It
originally appeared in an 1860 book without quotes around it as a
paraphrase of the authors idea of what Adams believed.




Calvin Coolidge, 30th President of the United States wrote "The
foundations of our society and our government rest so much on the
teachings of the Bible that it would be difficult to support them if
faith in these teachings would cease to be practically universal in our
country."


The fundamental precept of liberty is toleration. We cannot permit any
inquisition either from within or from without the law or apply any
religious test to the holding of office. The mind of America must be
forever free. (Calvin Coolidge, 30th U. S. President [1923-1929],
Inaugural Address on March 4, 1925,



In 1782, the United States Congress voted this resolution: "The congress
of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in
all schools."

James Madison, the primary author of the Constitution of the United
States, said "We have staked the whole future of our new nation, not upon
the power of government; far from it. We have staked the future of all
our political constitutions upon the capacity of each of ourselves to
govern ourselves according to the moral principles of the Ten
Commandments.


While extensively used, this quote cannot be found among any of Madison's
speeches or writings.






Excellent rebuttal to the original poster. Thanks for the input and
research.

Fred

"ff" wrote in message
. ..
Laurie Forbes wrote:

The original post caught my eye for some reason as it, with my admittedly
somewhat limited knowledge of US history, never-the-less seemed somehow
not very credible. Seeking a second opinion, I resubmitted the post to a
skeptics' group I subscribe to and received the following response.
Offered for FWIW.

............................................

Excellent rebuttal to the original poster. Thanks for the input and
research.

Fred

While I can't take credit for the contents, I am pleased you found it
informative.

Laurie Forbes

"ff" wrote in message
. ..
Laurie Forbes wrote:

The original post caught my eye for some reason as it, with my admittedly
somewhat limited knowledge of US history, never-the-less seemed somehow
not very credible. Seeking a second opinion, I resubmitted the post to a
skeptics' group I subscribe to and received the following response.
Offered for FWIW.............
................................

"This BS comes from material written by David Barton and is mostly made
up.


During the 2004 campaign, he got a lot of press as he was hired by the
Republican party to appear at events and give his rather distorted
version
of history.

http://www.michiganatheists.org/quotes2.html

http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/...ng.htm#MYTHING

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/boston1.htm

http://www.livingston.net/wilkyjr/link28.htm

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=David_Barton

If you really want to see some scary stuff, check out his web site.

http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/issues.php


52 of the 55 signers of The Declaration of Independence were orthodox,
deeply committed Christians.

Made up.

snip


Excellent rebuttal to the original poster. Thanks for the input and
research.

Fred


So far, I see no rebuttal other than anonymous claims that the quotes are
"made up" or unsubstantiated, combined with some links to
biased/agenda-driven Web sites (that go to great lengths to castigate a Mr.
David Barton, but provide no validated proof that all of these quotes are
directly attributable to Barton, or are false). That's not research, that's
simply a game of "he said, she said."

I'm not defending the original quotes as being correct or accurate. I'm just
pointing out that the rebuttal has no more veracity than the originally
posted quotes. On the Internet, anyone can say anything (especially
anonymously) and anyone can create a Web page to promote their own agenda.
That does not make the content any more credible than a fairy tale.

Btw, I am not a Christian; in fact, I am an atheist (based upon years of my
own scientific reasoning). But only an ignorant fool -- or an agenda-driven
revisionist -- would try to argue that America was not founded on
Judeo-Christian values and precepts. As for our current society, I have MUCH
MORE to fear from the militant atheists on the Left (who are trying to
install an authoritarian State as our new "Deity" and Marxism as our new
"religion"), than I have ever had to worry about "fundamentalists" espousing
their Christian faith. And my second greatest fear is from radical
Islamists, whom the Left has dangerously chosen to embrace.

- Michael

On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 21:22:27 GMT, "DeepDiver"
wrote:

"ff" wrote in message
...
Laurie Forbes wrote:

The original post caught my eye for some reason as it, with my admittedly
somewhat limited knowledge of US history, never-the-less seemed somehow
not very credible. Seeking a second opinion, I resubmitted the post to a
skeptics' group I subscribe to and received the following response.
Offered for FWIW.............
................................

"This BS comes from material written by David Barton and is mostly made
up.


During the 2004 campaign, he got a lot of press as he was hired by the
Republican party to appear at events and give his rather distorted
version
of history.

http://www.michiganatheists.org/quotes2.html

http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/...ng.htm#MYTHING

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/boston1.htm

http://www.livingston.net/wilkyjr/link28.htm

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=David_Barton

If you really want to see some scary stuff, check out his web site.

http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/issues.php


52 of the 55 signers of The Declaration of Independence were orthodox,
deeply committed Christians.

Made up.

snip


Excellent rebuttal to the original poster. Thanks for the input and
research.

Fred


So far, I see no rebuttal other than anonymous claims that the quotes are
"made up" or unsubstantiated, combined with some links to
biased/agenda-driven Web sites (that go to great lengths to castigate a Mr.
David Barton, but provide no validated proof that all of these quotes are
directly attributable to Barton, or are false). That's not research, that's
simply a game of "he said, she said."

I'm not defending the original quotes as being correct or accurate. I'm just
pointing out that the rebuttal has no more veracity than the originally
posted quotes. On the Internet, anyone can say anything (especially
anonymously) and anyone can create a Web page to promote their own agenda.
That does not make the content any more credible than a fairy tale.

Btw, I am not a Christian; in fact, I am an atheist (based upon years of my
own scientific reasoning). But only an ignorant fool -- or an agenda-driven
revisionist -- would try to argue that America was not founded on
Judeo-Christian values and precepts. As for our current society, I have MUCH
MORE to fear from the militant atheists on the Left (who are trying to
install an authoritarian State as our new "Deity" and Marxism as our new
"religion"), than I have ever had to worry about "fundamentalists" espousing
their Christian faith. And my second greatest fear is from radical
Islamists, whom the Left has dangerously chosen to embrace.

- Michael


Bravo!!!!!!!!!!

Gunner

"Considering the events of recent years,
the world has a long way to go to regain
its credibility and reputation with the US."
unknown

DeepDiver wrote:

"ff" wrote in message
...


Laurie Forbes wrote:



The original post caught my eye for some reason as it, with my admittedly
somewhat limited knowledge of US history, never-the-less seemed somehow
not very credible. Seeking a second opinion, I resubmitted the post to a
skeptics' group I subscribe to and received the following response.
Offered for FWIW.............
................................

"This BS comes from material written by David Barton and is mostly made
up.




During the 2004 campaign, he got a lot of press as he was hired by the
Republican party to appear at events and give his rather distorted
version
of history.

http://www.michiganatheists.org/quotes2.html

http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/...ng.htm#MYTHING

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/boston1.htm

http://www.livingston.net/wilkyjr/link28.htm

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=David_Barton

If you really want to see some scary stuff, check out his web site.

http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/issues.php




52 of the 55 signers of The Declaration of Independence were orthodox,
deeply committed Christians.



Made up.



snip



Excellent rebuttal to the original poster. Thanks for the input and
research.

Fred




So far, I see no rebuttal other than anonymous claims that the quotes are
"made up" or unsubstantiated, combined with some links to
biased/agenda-driven Web sites (that go to great lengths to castigate a Mr.
David Barton, but provide no validated proof that all of these quotes are
directly attributable to Barton, or are false). That's not research, that's
simply a game of "he said, she said."

I'm not defending the original quotes as being correct or accurate. I'm just
pointing out that the rebuttal has no more veracity than the originally
posted quotes. On the Internet, anyone can say anything (especially
anonymously) and anyone can create a Web page to promote their own agenda.
That does not make the content any more credible than a fairy tale.

Btw, I am not a Christian; in fact, I am an atheist (based upon years of my
own scientific reasoning). But only an ignorant fool -- or an agenda-driven
revisionist -- would try to argue that America was not founded on
Judeo-Christian values and precepts. As for our current society, I have MUCH
MORE to fear from the militant atheists on the Left (who are trying to
install an authoritarian State as our new "Deity" and Marxism as our new
"religion"), than I have ever had to worry about "fundamentalists" espousing
their Christian faith. And my second greatest fear is from radical
Islamists, whom the Left has dangerously chosen to embrace.

- Michael




Pot Kettle Black

In other words, where is the proof for your point of view? Can you
prove you are not a Christian? Do you have sources for the claims you
make about the groups you mentioned?

Fred

"ff" wrote in message
. com...
DeepDiver wrote:

Excellent rebuttal to the original poster. Thanks for the input and
research.

Fred


So far, I see no rebuttal other than anonymous claims that the quotes are
"made up" or unsubstantiated, combined with some links to
biased/agenda-driven Web sites (that go to great lengths to castigate a
Mr. David Barton, but provide no validated proof that all of these quotes
are directly attributable to Barton, or are false). That's not research,
that's simply a game of "he said, she said."

I'm not defending the original quotes as being correct or accurate. I'm
just pointing out that the rebuttal has no more veracity than the
originally posted quotes. On the Internet, anyone can say anything
(especially anonymously) and anyone can create a Web page to promote their
own agenda. That does not make the content any more credible than a fairy
tale.

Btw, I am not a Christian; in fact, I am an atheist (based upon years of
my own scientific reasoning). But only an ignorant fool -- or an
agenda-driven revisionist -- would try to argue that America was not
founded on Judeo-Christian values and precepts. As for our current
society, I have MUCH MORE to fear from the militant atheists on the Left
(who are trying to install an authoritarian State as our new "Deity" and
Marxism as our new "religion"), than I have ever had to worry about
"fundamentalists" espousing their Christian faith. And my second greatest
fear is from radical Islamists, whom the Left has dangerously chosen to
embrace.

- Michael
Pot Kettle Black

In other words, where is the proof for your point of view? Can you prove
you are not a Christian? Do you have sources for the claims you make about
the groups you mentioned?

Fred


I just knew some shallow-thinker would try to make that absurd comparison. I
don't have to prove my point of view, my beliefs (or lack thereof), or my
opinions. They are MINE. I'm not attributing them to anyone else.

There is a world of difference between my saying "I say..." and my saying
"John said...". In the former, you can either take me at my word
(particularly when we're discussing opinions or faith), or you can not:
that's up to you (and is a decision you have to make with every statement
made by every person you ever meet or hear throughout your life -- whether
in person, or on TV, or in print, or via the Internet). However, in the
latter case, how do you really know what John said, when you only have my
statement to go on? Even if you trust me, I may have made a mistake. Without
offering proof to back up my claim of John's statement, we have nothing.
That's why, as a witness in a court of law, a person's testimony as to what
he himself said is admissible, but his claims as to what someone else said
is inadmissible as hearsay.

So returning to the topic of this thread, what Laurie Forbes posted (and you
applauded because it obviously affirmed your own personal agenda) was
nothing more than hearsay: anonymous claims of what others said or didn't
say with no proof to back those claims up. On the other hand, what I wrote
is my personal testimony: it was offered without proof because it is
impossible to prove (plus, I really don't care what you think of my personal
beliefs). Now, just as in a court of law, I challenge you to find *any*
proof to rebut my testimony. If not, then just shut up because you're making
a fool of yourself.

- Michael

DeepDiver wrote:


Btw, I am not a Christian; in fact, I am an atheist (based upon years of
my own scientific reasoning). But only an ignorant fool -- or an
agenda-driven revisionist -- would try to argue that America was not
founded on Judeo-Christian values and precepts. As for our current
society, I have MUCH MORE to fear from the militant atheists on the Left
(who are trying to install an authoritarian State as our new "Deity" and
Marxism as our new "religion"), than I have ever had to worry about
"fundamentalists" espousing their Christian faith. And my second greatest
fear is from radical Islamists, whom the Left has dangerously chosen to
embrace.

- Michael


Pot Kettle Black

In other words, where is the proof for your point of view? Can you prove
you are not a Christian? Do you have sources for the claims you make about
the groups you mentioned?

Fred




I just knew some shallow-thinker would try to make that absurd comparison. I
don't have to prove my point of view, my beliefs (or lack thereof), or my
opinions. They are MINE. I'm not attributing them to anyone else.

There is a world of difference between my saying "I say..." and my saying
"John said...". In the former, you can either take me at my word
(particularly when we're discussing opinions or faith), or you can not:
that's up to you (and is a decision you have to make with every statement
made by every person you ever meet or hear throughout your life -- whether
in person, or on TV, or in print, or via the Internet). However, in the
latter case, how do you really know what John said, when you only have my
statement to go on? Even if you trust me, I may have made a mistake. Without
offering proof to back up my claim of John's statement, we have nothing.
That's why, as a witness in a court of law, a person's testimony as to what
he himself said is admissible, but his claims as to what someone else said
is inadmissible as hearsay.


There are *all kinds* of different hearsay rules in
the legal world. And each one of them is as "right" as another. It's true
that in U.S. -criminal- cases there is a constitutional right to "confront"
hostile witnesses. When possible. With various exceptions. But otherwise,
there are no hard and fast rules about hearsay. The most common-occurring
distinction is that *juries* are protected fairly strongly against hearing
hearsay. But when *judges* try the case without a jury, the hearsay
rules get
relaxed. In deference to the presumed greater skill of the judges.

Fred