So I've been reading the Iliad and these guys are at least as interested
in grabbing each other's armor as they are in fighting and I'm wondering
why.

Economics? Did this armor have such value that they'd risk their lives
(and the lives of their comrades, by taking a time out in the middle of
battle) to pilfer the stuff? It doesn't seem that they're pilfering only
better armor than they have, I'm remembering little or no mention of
that except maybe Hector wearing Achilles' armor, and I think that was
just for spite.

Honor/dishonor? I can understand that, but it sure seems like a great
risk to allow the real bad ass to monkey around like that.. the more
successful a man is, the more time-outs he takes to harvest armor..

One thing for sure; if Homer only exaggerated, say, 500% then those guys
were Real Men.

John

In the Classical age, a man's armor usually represented his entire liquid
assetts. Wars were fought more for plunder than patriotism and if you came
home with a few sets of armor it was much like hitting the lotto today.
"JohnM" wrote in message
m...
So I've been reading the Iliad and these guys are at least as interested
in grabbing each other's armor as they are in fighting and I'm wondering
why.

Economics? Did this armor have such value that they'd risk their lives
(and the lives of their comrades, by taking a time out in the middle of
battle) to pilfer the stuff? It doesn't seem that they're pilfering only
better armor than they have, I'm remembering little or no mention of
that except maybe Hector wearing Achilles' armor, and I think that was
just for spite.

Honor/dishonor? I can understand that, but it sure seems like a great
risk to allow the real bad ass to monkey around like that.. the more
successful a man is, the more time-outs he takes to harvest armor..

One thing for sure; if Homer only exaggerated, say, 500% then those guys
were Real Men.

John

I used to be in the SCA. I've made a riveted steel helm and a butt joint
mail coif by hand. The helm didn't take that long to build since I cut the
steel from sheet but I wouldn't want to hammer out the sheet. The butted
mail took a long time to assemble. I would hate to have to draw down the
wire first. This doesn't even address the fact that medieval mail was
riveted. Try putting a rivet in several thousand 14-16 gauge by 3/8" ID
rings.
If I remember correctly a suit of amour was the price of a house. Of course
if you're poor it's a poor persons house or less.
Karl
"JohnM" wrote in message
m...
So I've been reading the Iliad and these guys are at least as interested
in grabbing each other's armor as they are in fighting and I'm wondering
why.

Economics? Did this armor have such value that they'd risk their lives
(and the lives of their comrades, by taking a time out in the middle of
battle) to pilfer the stuff? It doesn't seem that they're pilfering only
better armor than they have, I'm remembering little or no mention of that
except maybe Hector wearing Achilles' armor, and I think that was just for
spite.

Honor/dishonor? I can understand that, but it sure seems like a great risk
to allow the real bad ass to monkey around like that.. the more successful
a man is, the more time-outs he takes to harvest armor..

One thing for sure; if Homer only exaggerated, say, 500% then those guys
were Real Men.

John

Karl Vorwerk wrote:
I used to be in the SCA. I've made a riveted steel helm and a butt joint
mail coif by hand. The helm didn't take that long to build since I cut the
steel from sheet but I wouldn't want to hammer out the sheet. The butted
mail took a long time to assemble. I would hate to have to draw down the
wire first. This doesn't even address the fact that medieval mail was
riveted. Try putting a rivet in several thousand 14-16 gauge by 3/8" ID
rings.
If I remember correctly a suit of amour was the price of a house. Of course
if you're poor it's a poor persons house or less.
Karl

Thanks Ed and Karl, that makes good sense. I suppose if the guy is rich
already he'll have followers who would appreciate some good armor as
part of their plunder.

Re; riveted mail rings, yeah, that's some serious fine work. I figure it
wasn't so hard for 8-year old kids to do, they got some good eyesight
and coordination.

I sure am glad I wasn't born in the old days, either Classical Greece or
Medievel Europe.. It's all very interesting, but seeing it from the
distance I do is enough for me..

John

Remember, the Greeks and Trojans were wearing Bronze armor, not steel,
and using bronze blades. Bronze was (and is) a very expensive metal
because it used the exotic metal Tin as part of it's makeup. Only
sources were a small amount in Turkey and major deposits in Ireland,
Wales, and southern Britain. Even in Greek times, the Phoenicians were
exporting Tin from the British Isles, which was a heck of voyage for
ships not much bigger than a normal day sailer these days. The hunt for
tin is thought to be what drove the development of commercial trading in
Western Europe.

Those Homeric heroes were wearing the worth of 10 healthy slaves or a
good sized farm on their backs. If they could claim one of those, the
average foot soldier was set for life.

Even more recently scavenging battles was a major source of wealth. The
steel scavenged from Waterloo was the basis of new industrial production
in Belgium (not to mention the "scrap metal" German weaponry that was
the basis of Israel's war for independence).

Jim McGill wrote:
Remember, the Greeks and Trojans were wearing Bronze armor, not steel,
and using bronze blades. Bronze was (and is) a very expensive metal
because it used the exotic metal Tin as part of it's makeup. Only
sources were a small amount in Turkey and major deposits in Ireland,
Wales, and southern Britain. Even in Greek times, the Phoenicians were
exporting Tin from the British Isles, which was a heck of voyage for
ships not much bigger than a normal day sailer these days. The hunt for
tin is thought to be what drove the development of commercial trading in
Western Europe.

Those Homeric heroes were wearing the worth of 10 healthy slaves or a
good sized farm on their backs. If they could claim one of those, the
average foot soldier was set for life.

Even more recently scavenging battles was a major source of wealth. The
steel scavenged from Waterloo was the basis of new industrial production
in Belgium (not to mention the "scrap metal" German weaponry that was
the basis of Israel's war for independence).

That helps a lot.. I wasn't considering the value of the metal itself,
just the added value of turning it into armor.

John