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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
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another punch/die question
Grant Erwin wrote: I got around to inventorying the punches and dies that came with my '80-ish ironworker. It looks like this unit punched a lot of 3/8" and 1/2" holes as there are a lot of dies in those sizes that are very beat up. Logic says if I have a 3/8" die that is all beat up around the hole, that I should be able to machine it larger, to make a usable e.g. 1/2" die. Is this possible? I see that a die is about 11 bucks, so it isn't worth spending a ton of time on. It's just that I seem to have about 10 unusable dies, and I'd like to use them. Sure, you should be able to do this. Be warned that the dies are hardened, and so even carbide tools may find it very hard to cut. You may want to anneal the dies first, cur to size and then harden again. A fair amount of work to do it right. If you were just going to open them up a few thousandths, you could grind them in the hardened state. What condition are the punches in? Jon |
#2
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another punch/die question
I got around to inventorying the punches and dies that came with my
'80-ish ironworker. It looks like this unit punched a lot of 3/8" and 1/2" holes as there are a lot of dies in those sizes that are very beat up. Logic says if I have a 3/8" die that is all beat up around the hole, that I should be able to machine it larger, to make a usable e.g. 1/2" die. Is this possible? I see that a die is about 11 bucks, so it isn't worth spending a ton of time on. It's just that I seem to have about 10 unusable dies, and I'd like to use them. Grant Erwin |
#3
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another punch/die question
You might be able to sharpen them by grinding the face depending if there's
enough land. You might try grinding them out bigger with an air die grinder mounted in the lathe. "Grant Erwin" wrote in message ... I got around to inventorying the punches and dies that came with my '80-ish ironworker. It looks like this unit punched a lot of 3/8" and 1/2" holes as there are a lot of dies in those sizes that are very beat up. Logic says if I have a 3/8" die that is all beat up around the hole, that I should be able to machine it larger, to make a usable e.g. 1/2" die. Is this possible? I see that a die is about 11 bucks, so it isn't worth spending a ton of time on. It's just that I seem to have about 10 unusable dies, and I'd like to use them. Grant Erwin |
#4
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another punch/die question
Most of the punches are either usable or completely broken. - GWE
Jon Elson wrote: Grant Erwin wrote: I got around to inventorying the punches and dies that came with my '80-ish ironworker. It looks like this unit punched a lot of 3/8" and 1/2" holes as there are a lot of dies in those sizes that are very beat up. Logic says if I have a 3/8" die that is all beat up around the hole, that I should be able to machine it larger, to make a usable e.g. 1/2" die. Is this possible? I see that a die is about 11 bucks, so it isn't worth spending a ton of time on. It's just that I seem to have about 10 unusable dies, and I'd like to use them. Sure, you should be able to do this. Be warned that the dies are hardened, and so even carbide tools may find it very hard to cut. You may want to anneal the dies first, cur to size and then harden again. A fair amount of work to do it right. If you were just going to open them up a few thousandths, you could grind them in the hardened state. What condition are the punches in? Jon |
#5
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another punch/die question
You might be able to sharpen them by grinding the face depending if there's
enough land. You might try grinding them out bigger with an air die grinder mounted in the lathe. "Grant Erwin" wrote in message ... I got around to inventorying the punches and dies that came with my '80-ish ironworker. It looks like this unit punched a lot of 3/8" and 1/2" holes as there are a lot of dies in those sizes that are very beat up. Logic says if I have a 3/8" die that is all beat up around the hole, that I should be able to machine it larger, to make a usable e.g. 1/2" die. Is this possible? I see that a die is about 11 bucks, so it isn't worth spending a ton of time on. It's just that I seem to have about 10 unusable dies, and I'd like to use them. Grant Erwin You can grind or turn them. Most ironworker tooling is not highly hardened. Use carbide or ceramic inserts. I usually just use carbide on ironworker or Roper Whitney tooling. Be sure to leave enough land on the die for future sharpening. This is a good time to set clearances for different thicknesses of metal. You can take that 3/8 die to .525 or so for 1/8 thick or to .550 for 1/4 thick with a 1/2 punch.. Be sure to stone off any grinding burrs before punching. They will dull a freshly sharpened punch or die very quick. Les |
#6
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another punch/die question
"Grant Erwin" wrote in message
... and I'd like to use them. Grant Erwin Others have posted that the die may be too hard to machine. You should still take a stab at it. I've machined O1 at ~56 rockwell C and it actually machines very nicely. Excellent finish. Use about 100SFPM to start (with brazed carbide, of course). Your edge probably won't last too long but you should be able to get through one part. This will require lots of rigidity and torque, although even a small machine should be fairly capable. Remember that you should have about 1/16" land (straight walled hole) at the cutting edge, and then it should be tapered behind that to prevent the slugs from getting suck in the die. About 2º included should be fine. Too much of an angle and this will weaken your cutting edge. Too little of angle and your slug will get stuck (may not matter all that much to you, although it may not be good to have a bunch of slugs in there). HTH. Regards, Robin I would leave more than a 1/16 land on an ironworker die. You don't have the precise stroke control like with a punch press. An ironworker punch usually pushes into the die a good distance as the material fractures. Take a look at the land in the other dies you have. It doesn't hurt to have and 1/8 land or even more. Ironworker tooling tends to take a beating. Leave plenty of life for resharpening. As for the relief taper beyond the land, the 2 degrees that Robin suggested will be fine. I turn 58-60Rc hardened punches and dies on import 12 and 14" machines quite often. A ceramic insert run dry like the NTK ZC-4 cuts them like butter. Chip comes off glowing red. All the heat goes into the chip. The part stays cool to the touch. That ironworker tooling will be softer. Carbide should do it. Les |
#7
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another punch/die question
This is a good time to set clearances for different thicknesses of metal. You
can take that 3/8 die to .525 or so for 1/8 thick or to .550 for 1/4 thick with a 1/2 punch.. 3/8 die should be .387 for .125 thick material |
#8
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another punch/die question
"Wwj2110" wrote in message ... This is a good time to set clearances for different thicknesses of metal. You can take that 3/8 die to .525 or so for 1/8 thick or to .550 for 1/4 thick with a 1/2 punch.. 3/8 die should be .387 for .125 thick material LOL I just noticed that. Grant will probably want to place a radii on the punch and die if he wants to do drawing with them (as the numbers above might want to suggest). But seriously, I suppose it depends on how nice Grant wants the slug and hole, but perhaps closer to 20% total clearence? Regards, Robin |
#9
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another punch/die question
"Wwj2110" wrote in message
... This is a good time to set clearances for different thicknesses of metal. You can take that 3/8 die to .525 or so for 1/8 thick or to .550 for 1/4 thick with a 1/2 punch.. 3/8 die should be .387 for .125 thick material LOL I just noticed that. Grant will probably want to place a radii on the punch and die if he wants to do drawing with them (as the numbers above might want to suggest). But seriously, I suppose it depends on how nice Grant wants the slug and hole, but perhaps closer to 20% total clearence? Regards, Robin That's right Robin. 20% total clearance for MS on an ironworker is what should be used. It will leave nice holes, require less stripping force, and make the tooling last longer. Grant had mentioned opening the 3/8 die up to a 1/2 die. I would use a .395 to .400 die for punching a 3/8 hole in 1/8 thick MS. Different materials and different operations may require different clearances. I generally run 20% total clearance on a daily basis with MS. Les |
#10
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another punch/die question
That's right Robin. 20% total clearance for MS on an ironworker is what should So, as I understand it. The punch determines the hole size and the die is made a little bigger for clearance? Just to be sure lets do an example: If the punch is 0.375 and the die is 0.400. Will it punch a .375 hole? thanks chuck |
#11
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another punch/die question
"Charles A. Sherwood" wrote in message ... That's right Robin. 20% total clearance for MS on an ironworker is what should So, as I understand it. The punch determines the hole size and the die is made a little bigger for clearance? Just to be sure lets do an example: If the punch is 0.375 and the die is 0.400. Will it punch a .375 hole? thanks chuck The punch determines the hole, the die determines the slug. Which is used depends on if you're blanking or piercing. Regards, Robin |
#12
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another punch/die question
"Charles A. Sherwood" wrote in message
... That's right Robin. 20% total clearance for MS on an ironworker is what should So, as I understand it. The punch determines the hole size and the die is made a little bigger for clearance? Just to be sure lets do an example: If the punch is 0.375 and the die is 0.400. Will it punch a .375 hole? thanks chuck The punch determines the hole, the die determines the slug. Which is used depends on if you're blanking or piercing. Regards, Robin To explain this a little further. For punching a 1" hole in an item, I will use a 1" punch. The clearance is on the die. To accommodate the different thicknesses of material, I have probably 10 different size dies at least, that could be used with the 1 punch. Now I want to punch out a 1" circle blank or slug. I will use a 1" die and the clearance will be on the punch. And again, to accommodate the different material thicknesses, I have 10 different diameter punches. As you can see, the number of punches and dies needed to do different size holes and blanks in any thickness of material can be staggering. I have never added up the amount of punches and dies I have. The amount is well over a thousand and I make new ones every chance I get. This is for precision stamping and being able to do just about any size. On an ironworker, the clearance doesn't really need to be exact for punching holes. You could get by with the same die for a couple of different fairly close material thicknesses. It will just make a difference on the quality of the hole. Les |
#13
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another punch/die question
To explain this a little further. For punching a 1" hole in an item, I will use a 1" punch. The clearance is on the die. thanks! chuck |
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