Grant Erwin wrote:

I got around to inventorying the punches and dies that came with my
'80-ish ironworker. It looks like this unit punched a lot of 3/8"
and 1/2" holes as there are a lot of dies in those sizes that are
very beat up.

Logic says if I have a 3/8" die that is all beat up around the hole,
that I should be able to machine it larger, to make a usable e.g. 1/2"
die. Is this possible? I see that a die is about 11 bucks, so it
isn't worth spending a ton of time on. It's just that I seem to have
about 10 unusable dies, and I'd like to use them.

Sure, you should be able to do this. Be warned that the dies are
hardened, and so even carbide tools may find it very hard to cut.
You may want to anneal the dies first, cur to size and then harden
again. A fair amount of work to do it right. If you were just going to
open them up a few thousandths, you could grind them in the hardened
state.

What condition are the punches in?

Jon

I got around to inventorying the punches and dies that came with my
'80-ish ironworker. It looks like this unit punched a lot of 3/8"
and 1/2" holes as there are a lot of dies in those sizes that are
very beat up.

Logic says if I have a 3/8" die that is all beat up around the hole,
that I should be able to machine it larger, to make a usable e.g. 1/2"
die. Is this possible? I see that a die is about 11 bucks, so it
isn't worth spending a ton of time on. It's just that I seem to have
about 10 unusable dies, and I'd like to use them.

Grant Erwin

You might be able to sharpen them by grinding the face depending if there's
enough land. You might try grinding them out bigger with an air die grinder
mounted in the lathe.

"Grant Erwin" wrote in message
...
I got around to inventorying the punches and dies that came with my
'80-ish ironworker. It looks like this unit punched a lot of 3/8"
and 1/2" holes as there are a lot of dies in those sizes that are
very beat up.

Logic says if I have a 3/8" die that is all beat up around the hole,
that I should be able to machine it larger, to make a usable e.g. 1/2"
die. Is this possible? I see that a die is about 11 bucks, so it
isn't worth spending a ton of time on. It's just that I seem to have
about 10 unusable dies, and I'd like to use them.

Grant Erwin

Most of the punches are either usable or completely broken. - GWE

Jon Elson wrote:



Grant Erwin wrote:

I got around to inventorying the punches and dies that came with my
'80-ish ironworker. It looks like this unit punched a lot of 3/8"
and 1/2" holes as there are a lot of dies in those sizes that are
very beat up.

Logic says if I have a 3/8" die that is all beat up around the hole,
that I should be able to machine it larger, to make a usable e.g. 1/2"
die. Is this possible? I see that a die is about 11 bucks, so it
isn't worth spending a ton of time on. It's just that I seem to have
about 10 unusable dies, and I'd like to use them.


Sure, you should be able to do this. Be warned that the dies are
hardened, and so even carbide tools may find it very hard to cut.
You may want to anneal the dies first, cur to size and then harden
again. A fair amount of work to do it right. If you were just going to
open them up a few thousandths, you could grind them in the hardened
state.

What condition are the punches in?

Jon

You might be able to sharpen them by grinding the face depending if there's
enough land. You might try grinding them out bigger with an air die grinder
mounted in the lathe.

"Grant Erwin" wrote in message
...
I got around to inventorying the punches and dies that came with my
'80-ish ironworker. It looks like this unit punched a lot of 3/8"
and 1/2" holes as there are a lot of dies in those sizes that are
very beat up.

Logic says if I have a 3/8" die that is all beat up around the hole,
that I should be able to machine it larger, to make a usable e.g. 1/2"
die. Is this possible? I see that a die is about 11 bucks, so it
isn't worth spending a ton of time on. It's just that I seem to have
about 10 unusable dies, and I'd like to use them.

Grant Erwin


You can grind or turn them. Most ironworker tooling is not highly hardened. Use
carbide or ceramic inserts. I usually just use carbide on ironworker or Roper
Whitney tooling.
Be sure to leave enough land on the die for future sharpening.
This is a good time to set clearances for different thicknesses of metal. You
can take that 3/8 die to .525 or so for 1/8 thick or to .550 for 1/4 thick with
a 1/2 punch..

Be sure to stone off any grinding burrs before punching. They will dull a
freshly sharpened punch or die very quick.

Les

"Grant Erwin" wrote in message
...
and I'd like to use them.

Grant Erwin


Others have posted that the die may be too hard to machine. You should still
take a stab at it. I've machined O1 at ~56 rockwell C and it actually
machines very nicely. Excellent finish. Use about 100SFPM to start (with
brazed carbide, of course). Your edge probably won't last too long but you
should be able to get through one part. This will require lots of rigidity
and torque, although even a small machine should be fairly capable.

Remember that you should have about 1/16" land (straight walled hole) at the
cutting edge, and then it should be tapered behind that to prevent the slugs
from getting suck in the die. About 2º included should be fine. Too much of
an angle and this will weaken your cutting edge. Too little of angle and
your slug will get stuck (may not matter all that much to you, although it
may not be good to have a bunch of slugs in there).

HTH.

Regards,

Robin


I would leave more than a 1/16 land on an ironworker die. You don't have the
precise stroke control like with a punch press. An ironworker punch usually
pushes into the die a good distance as the material fractures. Take a look at
the land in the other dies you have. It doesn't hurt to have and 1/8 land or
even more.
Ironworker tooling tends to take a beating. Leave plenty of life for
resharpening.
As for the relief taper beyond the land, the 2 degrees that Robin suggested
will be fine.

I turn 58-60Rc hardened punches and dies on import 12 and 14" machines quite
often. A ceramic insert run dry like the NTK ZC-4 cuts them like butter. Chip
comes off glowing red. All the heat goes into the chip. The part stays cool to
the touch.
That ironworker tooling will be softer. Carbide should do it.

Les

This is a good time to set clearances for different thicknesses of metal. You
can take that 3/8 die to .525 or so for 1/8 thick or to .550 for 1/4 thick
with
a 1/2 punch..

3/8 die should be .387 for .125 thick material

"Wwj2110" wrote in message
...
This is a good time to set clearances for different thicknesses of
metal. You
can take that 3/8 die to .525 or so for 1/8 thick or to .550 for 1/4
thick
with
a 1/2 punch..

3/8 die should be .387 for .125 thick material

LOL I just noticed that. Grant will probably want to place a radii on the
punch and die if he wants to do drawing with them (as the numbers above
might want to suggest).

But seriously, I suppose it depends on how nice Grant wants the slug and
hole, but perhaps closer to 20% total clearence?

Regards,

Robin

"Wwj2110" wrote in message
...
This is a good time to set clearances for different thicknesses of
metal. You
can take that 3/8 die to .525 or so for 1/8 thick or to .550 for 1/4
thick
with
a 1/2 punch..

3/8 die should be .387 for .125 thick material

LOL I just noticed that. Grant will probably want to place a radii on the
punch and die if he wants to do drawing with them (as the numbers above
might want to suggest).

But seriously, I suppose it depends on how nice Grant wants the slug and
hole, but perhaps closer to 20% total clearence?

Regards,

Robin

That's right Robin. 20% total clearance for MS on an ironworker is what should
be used. It will leave nice holes, require less stripping force, and make the
tooling last longer.
Grant had mentioned opening the 3/8 die up to a 1/2 die.
I would use a .395 to .400 die for punching a 3/8 hole in 1/8 thick MS.
Different materials and different operations may require different clearances.
I generally run 20% total clearance on a daily basis with MS.

Les

That's right Robin. 20% total clearance for MS on an ironworker is what should

So, as I understand it. The punch determines the hole size and the die
is made a little bigger for clearance?

Just to be sure lets do an example:
If the punch is 0.375 and the die is 0.400.
Will it punch a .375 hole?
thanks
chuck

"Charles A. Sherwood" wrote in message
...

That's right Robin. 20% total clearance for MS on an ironworker is what
should

So, as I understand it. The punch determines the hole size and the die
is made a little bigger for clearance?

Just to be sure lets do an example:
If the punch is 0.375 and the die is 0.400.
Will it punch a .375 hole?
thanks
chuck

The punch determines the hole, the die determines the slug. Which is used
depends on if you're blanking or piercing.

Regards,

Robin

"Charles A. Sherwood" wrote in message
...

That's right Robin. 20% total clearance for MS on an ironworker is what
should

So, as I understand it. The punch determines the hole size and the die
is made a little bigger for clearance?

Just to be sure lets do an example:
If the punch is 0.375 and the die is 0.400.
Will it punch a .375 hole?
thanks
chuck

The punch determines the hole, the die determines the slug. Which is used
depends on if you're blanking or piercing.

Regards,

Robin


To explain this a little further.
For punching a 1" hole in an item, I will use a 1" punch. The clearance is on
the die. To accommodate the different thicknesses of material, I have probably
10 different size dies at least, that could be used with the 1 punch.
Now I want to punch out a 1" circle blank or slug. I will use a 1" die and the
clearance will be on the punch. And again, to accommodate the different
material thicknesses, I have 10 different diameter punches.

As you can see, the number of punches and dies needed to do different size
holes and blanks in any thickness of material can be staggering.
I have never added up the amount of punches and dies I have. The amount is well
over a thousand and I make new ones every chance I get.
This is for precision stamping and being able to do just about any size.
On an ironworker, the clearance doesn't really need to be exact for punching
holes. You could get by with the same die for a couple of different fairly
close material thicknesses. It will just make a difference on the quality of
the hole.

Les

To explain this a little further.
For punching a 1" hole in an item, I will use a 1" punch. The clearance is on
the die.

thanks!

chuck