To All:

Sorry for crossposting, but I think it would be interesting to
see a little feedback on the results of Cliff's posting style. g


Please answer the following on a scale of 0 to 10:

1. Cliff's constructiveness: A "10" would indicate that you think
Cliff is a constructive poster, a "0" would indicate he's a destructive
poster.

[ ]


2. Cliff's credibility: A "10" is credible (Cliff's comments as
presented can be assumed to be factual), A "0" is not credible at all
(Cliff's comments as presented can't be trusted to be true and have to
be independently verified).

[ ]


3. Cliff's entertainment value: A "10" would indicate that Cliff is
very entertaining, a "0" would indicate that he's not entertaining in
the slightest.

[ ]


4. Cliff's posting value: A "10" would indicate you want MORE posts
from Cliff, a "0" would indicate you would rather Cliff just go away.

[ ]


Other comments:




--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

Sorry for crossposting,

then don't, you freaking a..hole. nobody here gives a ****.

BottleBob wrote:
To All:

Sorry for crossposting, but I think it would be interesting
to
see a little feedback on the results of Cliff's posting style. g


Please answer the following on a scale of 0 to 10:

1. Cliff's constructiveness: A "10" would indicate that you think
Cliff is a constructive poster, a "0" would indicate he's a
destructive
poster.

[0 ]


2. Cliff's credibility: A "10" is credible (Cliff's comments as
presented can be assumed to be factual), A "0" is not credible at all
(Cliff's comments as presented can't be trusted to be true and have
to
be independently verified).

[0 ]


3. Cliff's entertainment value: A "10" would indicate that Cliff is
very entertaining, a "0" would indicate that he's not entertaining in
the slightest.

[0 ]


4. Cliff's posting value: A "10" would indicate you want MORE posts
from Cliff, a "0" would indicate you would rather Cliff just go away.

[ ]


Other comments:




--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob




1. 0
2. 0
3. 0
4. I don't wish for him to go away.

Other comments:

He needs to admit he has the mental health disorder described below and
find a way to control this disorder :

http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/di...issisticpd.htm

I belive he has a lot to offer but his mental illness is robbing him of
being able to convey much of what he knows as he has turned off almost
everyone with the approach that is described perfectly in the link
above.

Make no mistake.... he is a very smart man in many ways but will never
get respect using the communication methods that his mental illness
causes.

jon

remy martin wrote:
Sorry for crossposting,

then don't, you freaking a..hole. nobody here gives a ****.

Since when do you speak for everyone ?

jon

"BottleBob" wrote in message
...
To All:

Sorry for crossposting, but I think it would be interesting to
see a little feedback on the results of Cliff's posting style. g

Please answer the following on a scale of 0 to 10:

1. Cliff's constructiveness: A "10" would indicate that you think
Cliff is a constructive poster, a "0" would indicate he's a destructive
poster.

[ 0 ]


2. Cliff's credibility: A "10" is credible (Cliff's comments as
presented can be assumed to be factual), A "0" is not credible at all
(Cliff's comments as presented can't be trusted to be true and have to
be independently verified).


[ 0 ]


3. Cliff's entertainment value: A "10" would indicate that Cliff is
very entertaining, a "0" would indicate that he's not entertaining in
the slightest.


[ 0 ]


4. Cliff's posting value: A "10" would indicate you want MORE posts
from Cliff, a "0" would indicate you would rather Cliff just go away.

[ 0 ]


Other comments:

IMO, Cliff is a Spammer (and, like all spammers, should be banned from the
NGs. I have never read one single on-topic post from this annoying clown.

BottleBob wrote in news:4283EC07.787B0BE1
@earthlink.net:


1. 2
2. 4
3. 0
4. 3



--
Anthony

You can't 'idiot proof' anything....every time you try, they just make
better idiots.

Remove sp to reply via email

http://www.machines-cnc.net:81/

remy martin wrote:

Sorry for crossposting,

then don't, you freaking a..hole. nobody here gives a ****.

Remy:

Nobody? Well "some" might care if it becomes the impetus for change.
Just consider it a public service. LOL

--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

1. Cliff's constructiveness:
[0]

2. Cliff's credibility:
[0]

3. Cliff's entertainment value:
[0]

4. Cliff's posting value:
[0]

Other comments:

I find off-topic postings to be very annoying. Cliff seems to post nothing
but bilge.

GWE

0
0
0
0

1. 0
2. 0
3. 0
4. I don't wish for him to go away.

Other comments:

He needs to admit he has the mental health disorder described below and
find a way to control this disorder :

http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/di...issisticpd.htm

I belive he has a lot to offer but his mental illness is robbing him of
being able to convey much of what he knows as he has turned off almost
everyone with the approach that is described perfectly in the link
above.

Make no mistake.... he is a very smart man in many ways but will never
get respect using the communication methods that his mental illness
causes.

jon


First, I believe that Narcissistic Personality Disorder is non-
diagnosable via postings on a NG. We have far too limited a view of the
true workings of Cliff to know if this is all just a game, a sport, a
joke to him or not. (for example: How many of you have read one of PV's
posts and wondered to yourself, "Can this guy be such a character in real
life, or is he just one hell of a creative writer?") But just because we
can't prove the causation for Cliff's behavior, it doesn't mean his
actions can't be judged.

Second, I would like to thank BB, Jon and others for speaking out, in a
rational manner, about a major problem in this group. Sure, opinions are
like assholes and the best thing to do with an annoying poster is to put
him on ignore and never take the bait, but the sheer volume and force
behind thousands of posts has a destructive influence here.

If we stop feeding the flames, the fire will go out. I know Cliff is
smart, but is he smart enough to argue with just himself?

--
Robert Davidson
President
Atlas Financial Corporation
877-750-9445

On Thu, 12 May 2005 23:51:20 GMT, BottleBob
wrote:

To All:

Sorry for crossposting, but I think it would be interesting to
see a little feedback on the results of Cliff's posting style. g


Please answer the following on a scale of 0 to 10:

1. Cliff's constructiveness: A "10" would indicate that you think
Cliff is a constructive poster, a "0" would indicate he's a destructive
poster.

[ ]


2. Cliff's credibility: A "10" is credible (Cliff's comments as
presented can be assumed to be factual), A "0" is not credible at all
(Cliff's comments as presented can't be trusted to be true and have to
be independently verified).

[ ]


3. Cliff's entertainment value: A "10" would indicate that Cliff is
very entertaining, a "0" would indicate that he's not entertaining in
the slightest.

[ ]


4. Cliff's posting value: A "10" would indicate you want MORE posts
from Cliff, a "0" would indicate you would rather Cliff just go away.

[ ]


Other comments:

Cliff is starved for attention, likely as a result of poor parenting,
closet homosexuality, and a general lack of personal hygene.

If you ignore him, he will go elsewhere in search of attention.

Strider

BottleBob wrote:
To All:

Sorry for crossposting, but I think it would be interesting to
see a little feedback on the results of Cliff's posting style. g


Please answer the following on a scale of 0 to 10:

1. Cliff's constructiveness: A "10" would indicate that you think
Cliff is a constructive poster, a "0" would indicate he's a destructive
poster.

[ ]


2. Cliff's credibility: A "10" is credible (Cliff's comments as
presented can be assumed to be factual), A "0" is not credible at all
(Cliff's comments as presented can't be trusted to be true and have to
be independently verified).

[ ]


3. Cliff's entertainment value: A "10" would indicate that Cliff is
very entertaining, a "0" would indicate that he's not entertaining in
the slightest.

[ ]


4. Cliff's posting value: A "10" would indicate you want MORE posts
from Cliff, a "0" would indicate you would rather Cliff just go away.

[ ]


Other comments:




--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

what makes you think one poster is so important he deserves his own
multi group survey ?

myal wrote:


what makes you think one poster is so important he deserves his own
multi group survey ?

Myal:

You wouldn't perhaps be jealous, would you?

But to partially answer your question, Cliff is the most voluminous
poster in the Solidworks and CNC groups. And in the CNC group he often
makes more posts per week than the rest of the top ten voluminous
posters combined. His posts can, and often do, adversely influence the
"tone" of the group.
And to reply to the comments made by Robert Davidson and Strider who
said treat him like a normal troll and "just ignore him and he'll go
away"... well I sincerely believe that won't work in this case. Cliff
tends to crosspost to other groups solely to stir up **** and give
himself newbies and posts to reply to.
IMO, about the only thing that may work is if he saw the animosity of
numerous posters from all the groups he posts to, he might think about
changing his behavior - and then he might not. But the possibility of
positive and constructive change is the reason for me starting this
little feedback thread.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Oh, one further point. If there are those that don't want to get on
Cliff's hit list by filling out my survey, they can E-mail me their
results direct, and I'll confidentially add them in, if and when I
summarize the survey.

--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

Robert Davidson wrote:
1. 0
2. 0
3. 0
4. I don't wish for him to go away.

Other comments:

He needs to admit he has the mental health disorder described below
and
find a way to control this disorder :

http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/di...issisticpd.htm

I belive he has a lot to offer but his mental illness is robbing
him of
being able to convey much of what he knows as he has turned off
almost
everyone with the approach that is described perfectly in the link
above.

Make no mistake.... he is a very smart man in many ways but will
never
get respect using the communication methods that his mental illness
causes.

jon


First, I believe that Narcissistic Personality Disorder is non-
diagnosable via postings on a NG. We have far too limited a view of
the
true workings of Cliff to know if this is all just a game, a sport, a

joke to him or not. (for example: How many of you have read one of
PV's
posts and wondered to yourself, "Can this guy be such a character in
real
life, or is he just one hell of a creative writer?") But just
because we
can't prove the causation for Cliff's behavior, it doesn't mean his
actions can't be judged.

Second, I would like to thank BB, Jon and others for speaking out, in
a
rational manner, about a major problem in this group. Sure, opinions
are
like assholes and the best thing to do with an annoying poster is to
put
him on ignore and never take the bait, but the sheer volume and force

behind thousands of posts has a destructive influence here.

If we stop feeding the flames, the fire will go out. I know Cliff is

smart, but is he smart enough to argue with just himself?

--
Robert Davidson
President
Atlas Financial Corporation
877-750-9445


Robert,

"First, I believe that Narcissistic Personality Disorder is
non- diagnosable via postings on a NG."

You have to admit he fits every single characteristic
described to a "T".

"We have far too limited a view of the true workings of
Cliff to know if this is all just a game, a sport, a joke
to him or not."

I agree we have too limited a view but what many long time
posters do know is that it's no joke. That he does it in the
context of it being a game is by now transparent to most of
us who have been around for a say 4 years.

"Second, I would like to thank BB, Jon and others for
speaking out, in a rational manner, about a major problem in
this group."

Lots of others have tried. Sam most recently. The problem is he
destroys any semblance of community in alt.machines.cnc and
has driven countless posters out of here to other moderated
web bulletin boards (where his kind of behavior would never
be tolerated), to the alt.machines.cnc chat server, etc.

"If we stop feeding the flames, the fire will go out."

Nope. Some asshole will always continue to feed the flames.
Many don't have the sense of community that a lot of us
regulars in alt.machines.cnc do and he thrives on that.
BTW, you now a regular. :)

"I know Cliff is smart, but is he smart enough to argue with
just himself?"

How smart is someone who makes so little effort to treat
their mental illness ?

jon

Any particular reason you didn't include the other offender (jb)in your
survey?

BottleBob wrote:

myal wrote:


what makes you think one poster is so important he deserves his own
multi group survey ?


Myal:

You wouldn't perhaps be jealous, would you?

But to partially answer your question, Cliff is the most voluminous
poster in the Solidworks and CNC groups. And in the CNC group he often
makes more posts per week than the rest of the top ten voluminous
posters combined. His posts can, and often do, adversely influence the
"tone" of the group.
And to reply to the comments made by Robert Davidson and Strider who
said treat him like a normal troll and "just ignore him and he'll go
away"... well I sincerely believe that won't work in this case. Cliff
tends to crosspost to other groups solely to stir up **** and give
himself newbies and posts to reply to.
IMO, about the only thing that may work is if he saw the animosity of
numerous posters from all the groups he posts to, he might think about
changing his behavior - and then he might not. But the possibility of
positive and constructive change is the reason for me starting this
little feedback thread.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Oh, one further point. If there are those that don't want to get on
Cliff's hit list by filling out my survey, they can E-mail me their
results direct, and I'll confidentially add them in, if and when I
summarize the survey.

--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

"BottleBob" wrote in message
...

Other comments:

I don't see Cliff's posts anymore... finally got to be too much even for
me.

--Mitch

Gary Knutson wrote:

Any particular reason you didn't include the other offender (jb)in your
survey?

Gary:

Well, Cliff makes between 200-300 posts per week in a.m.cnc, a
significant portion of them off-topic political rants crossposted to
misc.survivalism and rec.crafts.metalworking.
Jon, while he can definitely be abrasive, generally makes around 50
posts per week and tends to stay focused on the topic of CAD/CAM
systems, with some backlash reactions to Cliff's incessant attempts at
character assassination.

You can always initiate a survey of your own. g

--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

On Thu, 12 May 2005 23:51:20 GMT, BottleBob wrote:

To All:

Sorry for crossposting, but I think it would be interesting to
see a little feedback on the results of Cliff's posting style. g


Please answer the following on a scale of 0 to 10:

1. Cliff's constructiveness: A "10" would indicate that you think
Cliff is a constructive poster, a "0" would indicate he's a destructive
poster.

[-5 ]


2. Cliff's credibility: A "10" is credible (Cliff's comments as
presented can be assumed to be factual), A "0" is not credible at all
(Cliff's comments as presented can't be trusted to be true and have to
be independently verified).

[-10 ]


3. Cliff's entertainment value: A "10" would indicate that Cliff is
very entertaining, a "0" would indicate that he's not entertaining in
the slightest.

[ -10]


4. Cliff's posting value: A "10" would indicate you want MORE posts
from Cliff, a "0" would indicate you would rather Cliff just go away.

[ -10]


Other comments:

Cliffie is what I call an Attention Slut. He thrives on attention. He prefers
positive attention, but when he can't get that kind, he will settle for negative
attention, since that is still attention. He may not go away if he is ignored,
but at least I won't be wasting my time with him then.


--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

BottleBob wrote:
myal wrote:


what makes you think one poster is so important he deserves his own
multi group survey ?


Myal:

You wouldn't perhaps be jealous, would you?

No , just curious why a dropkick like cliff is worth so much hassle .


But to partially answer your question, Cliff is the most voluminous
poster in the Solidworks and CNC groups. And in the CNC group he often
makes more posts per week than the rest of the top ten voluminous
posters combined. His posts can, and often do, adversely influence the
"tone" of the group.
And to reply to the comments made by Robert Davidson and Strider who
said treat him like a normal troll and "just ignore him and he'll go
away"... well I sincerely believe that won't work in this case. Cliff
tends to crosspost to other groups solely to stir up **** and give
himself newbies and posts to reply to.
IMO, about the only thing that may work is if he saw the animosity of
numerous posters from all the groups he posts to, he might think about
changing his behavior - and then he might not. But the possibility of
positive and constructive change is the reason for me starting this
little feedback thread.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Understood .
Though I think it only adds to his ego giving him any attention .
Have fun and good luck .



Oh, one further point. If there are those that don't want to get on
Cliff's hit list by filling out my survey, they can E-mail me their
results direct, and I'll confidentially add them in, if and when I
summarize the survey.

--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

On Thu, 12 May 2005 23:51:20 GMT, BottleBob wrote:

To All:

Sorry for crossposting, but I think it would be interesting to
see a little feedback on the results of Cliff's posting style. g

snip

Other comments:

Think of Cliff as an abstraction, rather than a distraction:

A test for the religious to see if they *really* are prepared to turn the
other cheek.

A reminder to the "Wingers" that free speech work both ways.

An incentive for the IT-impaired to learn about kill-filters before setting
out on the murky waters of Usenet.

... and for the rest of us:

A gentle reminder that early retirement perhaps not always is as attractive as
it seems from a distance... g

"Since boredom advances and boredom is the root of all evil, no wonder, then,
that the world goes backwards, that evil spreads. This can be traced back to the
very beginning of the world. The gods were bored; therefore they created human
beings."

Soren Kierkegaard


--
- JN -

On Fri, 13 May 2005 10:38:17 +0200, Jan Nielsen
wrote:

A gentle reminder that early retirement perhaps not always is as attractive as
it seems from a distance... g

One always has jb & wingers for amusment & cheap thrills G.
Sometimes a fundie drops by too, full of hate VBG.

How jb can still get so many things wrong so often while posting
ads, things copied from others & clueless buzzwords is absolutely
amazing.

And the wingers are still looking for "WMDs" while licking up
to neocons & copying old, stale, long discredited wingerblogs.

BB has "inertia" going for him ......
--
Cliff

The Watcher wrote:

Cliffie is what I call an Attention Slut. He thrives on attention. He prefers
positive attention, but when he can't get that kind, he will settle for negative
attention, since that is still attention. He may not go away if he is ignored,
but at least I won't be wasting my time with him then.

There is nothing but absolute truth in this statement.


--

Michael Gailey
Artistic CNC Mill, Router and Engraver Programming
3D modeling for Product Design and Development
http://www.microsystemsgeorgia.com/toc.htm

"Gary Knutson" wrote in message news:B2Xge.10062$D91.8470@fed1read01...
Any particular reason you didn't include the other offender (jb)in your survey?


Very, very poor judgment on Bib's behalf is why, IMO.

There is thread in alt.machines.cnc under the subject
entitled "Physics question" *was* currently all the rage
between Cliff and BB. This Survey comes as a surprise
to me, but now my question becomes can BB sustain
himself under scrutiny to then come back to scrutinize.
The Survey thread indicates to me "She just can't take much
more captain, she can't take it".

Instead of staying course exhanging spirited discussion
with Cliff, BB will do instead create a new subject designed to
weaken Cliff, break his concentration, so maybe I can get a
few words in edge wise ROFL.

The physics thread and its two biggest proponents go figure.
Now does BB not seem to enjoy playing in the sandbox with Cliff,
just because Cliff threw some sand in my eyes! alright kids,
nuffs enough the physics sandbox is closed today and were having
JB find all the cat poop, you can come back to play tomorrow g

John

One always has jb & wingers for amusment & cheap thrills G.
Sometimes a fundie drops by too, full of hate VBG.

Sorry Cliff, but I believe you have shown the most hate and intolerance of
any poster.

On Thu, 12 May 2005 17:56:25 -0700, Grant Erwin wrote:
I find off-topic postings to be very annoying. Cliff seems to post nothing
but bilge.

And yet, rather than killfiling it and moving on, people give it attention
by starting threads about it. Odd, that.

On Fri, 13 May 2005 16:01:08 GMT, "Tom Gardner"
wrote:

One always has jb & wingers for amusment & cheap thrills G.
Sometimes a fundie drops by too, full of hate VBG.

Sorry Cliff, but I believe you have shown the most hate and intolerance of
any poster.

Pointing out jb's amusing errors is fun and so is hanging
hate-filled wingers & fundies out to dry G.
Lapses in logic are amusing as well.

HTH
--
Cliff

Robert,

"First, I believe that Narcissistic Personality Disorder is
non- diagnosable via postings on a NG."

You have to admit he fits every single characteristic
described to a "T".

I hear you, Jon. I'm just not sure how productive it is to try and
diagnose Cliff. Any guess as to the reasons for his behavior are
subjective at best. In fact, if Cliff really has NPD, trying to point
that out to him probably won't have any impact, will it?

"We have far too limited a view of the true workings of
Cliff to know if this is all just a game, a sport, a joke
to him or not."

I agree we have too limited a view but what many long time
posters do know is that it's no joke. That he does it in the
context of it being a game is by now transparent to most of
us who have been around for a say 4 years.

I've only been here for 4 or 5 months, so I respect the senior group
member's opinions very much. And, like I said before, I believe that we
can all judge Cliff (and everyone else, for that matter) based on his
actions. How each of us chooses to interact with him then becomes a
function of our individual judgment. Kind of like a democracy, no?

"Second, I would like to thank BB, Jon and others for
speaking out, in a rational manner, about a major problem in
this group."

Lots of others have tried. Sam most recently. The problem is he
destroys any semblance of community in alt.machines.cnc and
has driven countless posters out of here to other moderated
web bulletin boards (where his kind of behavior would never
be tolerated), to the alt.machines.cnc chat server, etc.

I'm sure this is quite true, but what's your solution? Urge Cliff to
seek the help of a mental health professional? Ban him from the group?

The great thing about an un-moderated board is the wide latitude all of
us have in expressing ourselves. The obvious drawback is that when
people disagree about the way things should be run here, there is no
third party mediator to decide the issue.

In other words, Cliff has as much right to express his opinions as you or
I do, and unless someone takes on the roll of moderator of the NG the
only person able to control Cliff is Cliff. As far as I know, he hasn't
broken any usenet rules here. He is rarely profane or offensive (beyond
what is the norm for this group), but much of the time his 'help' is
counter-productive. Add up thousands of marginally counter-productive
posts and you end up with a big problem. Unfortunately, other than each
of us exorcising self control when it comes to taking Cliff's bait, I
don't see any other solution, do you?

"If we stop feeding the flames, the fire will go out."

Nope. Some asshole will always continue to feed the flames.
Many don't have the sense of community that a lot of us
regulars in alt.machines.cnc do and he thrives on that.
BTW, you now a regular. :)

Yes, Cliff will always be able to get his fix as long as people remain in
this NG. I truly hope that he will, one day, end his ad hominem attacks.
If he were to confine his postings to on-topic issues and realize that
getting into fights with other posters is useless, he would be a most
valuable resource here.

"I know Cliff is smart, but is he smart enough to argue with
just himself?"

How smart is someone who makes so little effort to treat
their mental illness ?

jon

Cliff, if you are reading this, let me take the opportunity to say
Thanks. I haven't forgotten that you were one of the first to come to my
defense in this NG. You stood up for me and said I had as much right to
be here as anyone else; I appreciate that to this day.

But, I think you have so much more to offer to the group. Every time you
personally attack someone, I tune you out. Every time you make a
condescending post or try to show-up another NG member, I lose respect
for you. Please, please, please re-consider your reasons for being
here...if it's to stimulate your mind and have healthy interactions with
your peers, then change your ways and become a productive part of the
group. If it's to stir-up **** and watch people's heads explode, then
I'd rather you weren't here.



--
Robert Davidson
President
Atlas Financial Corporation
877-750-9445

"Robert Davidson" wrote in message
...
Robert,

"First, I believe that Narcissistic Personality Disorder is
non- diagnosable via postings on a NG."

You have to admit he fits every single characteristic
described to a "T".

I hear you, Jon. I'm just not sure how productive it is to try and
diagnose Cliff. Any guess as to the reasons for his behavior are
subjective at best. In fact, if Cliff really has NPD, trying to point
that out to him probably won't have any impact, will it?

It's real simple, Robert: If he bugs you, just plonk him, like I did with
Jon.

Nobody takes Jon's "psychoanalysis" seriously, so there's no loss. Nobody
takes Cliff's one-line assaults seriously, so there's nothing that anyone
has to worry about just by ignoring either or both of them. Let them talk to
each other, if that's what they want.

But, for God's sake, don't perpetuate these things by buying into the
nonsense and feeding the threads with "analyses" of your own. If it doesn't
bother you very much and you feel like sticking in an oar from time to time
(which is what I do), then have your fun, and then go back to whatever
interests you. Lord knows I've fed Jon's...ah...psychological needs g a
few times, but I've learned my lesson.

Cliff contributes almost nothing these days, and Jon's need to impress has
resulted in lots of smoke but little fire. So, let them burn on. It makes no
sense to pay attention any longer.

Oh, and the next time BB posts a survey, ignore it. They're nothing but
provocation. There really are some genuine discussions going on and a few
are interesting.

--
Ed Huntress

"Robert Davidson" wrote in message ...
Robert,


But, I think you have so much more to offer to the group. Every time you
personally attack someone,

Show us one google link which shows Cliff attacked someone.

John

"Ed Huntress" wrote in
:

"Robert Davidson" wrote in message
...
Robert,

"First, I believe that Narcissistic Personality Disorder is
non- diagnosable via postings on a NG."

You have to admit he fits every single characteristic
described to a "T".

I hear you, Jon. I'm just not sure how productive it is to try and
diagnose Cliff. Any guess as to the reasons for his behavior are
subjective at best. In fact, if Cliff really has NPD, trying to
point that out to him probably won't have any impact, will it?

It's real simple, Robert: If he bugs you, just plonk him, like I did
with Jon.

Nobody takes Jon's "psychoanalysis" seriously, so there's no loss.
Nobody takes Cliff's one-line assaults seriously, so there's nothing
that anyone has to worry about just by ignoring either or both of
them. Let them talk to each other, if that's what they want.

But, for God's sake, don't perpetuate these things by buying into the
nonsense and feeding the threads with "analyses" of your own. If it
doesn't bother you very much and you feel like sticking in an oar from
time to time (which is what I do), then have your fun, and then go
back to whatever interests you. Lord knows I've fed
Jon's...ah...psychological needs g a few times, but I've learned my
lesson.

Cliff contributes almost nothing these days, and Jon's need to impress
has resulted in lots of smoke but little fire. So, let them burn on.
It makes no sense to pay attention any longer.

Oh, and the next time BB posts a survey, ignore it. They're nothing
but provocation. There really are some genuine discussions going on
and a few are interesting.

--
Ed Huntress



That's sound advice Ed. Like you, I try not to make the problem worse in
the course of helping out. I've never made my opinion known on this
topic before, so I figured I'd make a one-time effort to try and calm the
waters. I don't have high hopes for success, but I gave it a shot.

--
Robert Davidson
President
Atlas Financial Corporation
877-750-9445

BottleBob wrote:

To All:

Sorry for crossposting, but I think it would be interesting to
see a little feedback on the results of Cliff's posting style. g


Please answer the following on a scale of 0 to 10:

1. Cliff's constructiveness: A "10" would indicate that you think
Cliff is a constructive poster, a "0" would indicate he's a destructive
poster.

[ 0 ]


2. Cliff's credibility: A "10" is credible (Cliff's comments as
presented can be assumed to be factual), A "0" is not credible at all
(Cliff's comments as presented can't be trusted to be true and have to
be independently verified).

[ 0 ]


3. Cliff's entertainment value: A "10" would indicate that Cliff is
very entertaining, a "0" would indicate that he's not entertaining in
the slightest.

[ 0 ]


4. Cliff's posting value: A "10" would indicate you want MORE posts
from Cliff, a "0" would indicate you would rather Cliff just go away.

[ 0 ]

I hope I get on his hit list now.
--
Beaner...the greasy meat no one wants or needs.

"Robert Davidson" wrote in message
...

That's sound advice Ed. Like you, I try not to make the problem worse in
the course of helping out. I've never made my opinion known on this
topic before, so I figured I'd make a one-time effort to try and calm the
waters. I don't have high hopes for success, but I gave it a shot.

FWIW, I've been here for a few years, and here's my take: Cliff has a lot of
time on his hands and he's decided to spend it by bugging the hell out of
right-wing snots who think they have the answer to everything, and that
everyone else stinks -- often by adopting their sarcasm and methods. Jon
uses this place to gain affirmation for his CAD/CAM "expertise," which he
accomplishes by belittling any other software than that which is the apple
of his eye at the moment. Anyone who defends said offending software is
labeled an incompetent or a dupe.

Thus, we have two sources of antagonism going on at the same time. I don't
think anyone is going to calm the waters. That's not on the agenda. But we
can let the arguments become no more of a problem than background noise, by
ignoring them.

--
Ed Huntress

Cliff wrote:

On Fri, 13 May 2005 16:01:08 GMT, "Tom Gardner"
wrote:

One always has jb & wingers for amusment & cheap thrills G.
Sometimes a fundie drops by too, full of hate VBG.

Sorry Cliff, but I believe you have shown the most hate and intolerance of
any poster.

Pointing out jb's amusing errors is fun and so is hanging
hate-filled wingers & fundies out to dry G.

Which you've yet to do.

Lapses in logic are amusing as well.

That, you've proved well enough with each post you make.


HTH

It didn't, as usual, nothing you post seems to. Maybe you should sell your
computer and take up knitting as was suggested by your shrink.

--
Beaner...the greasy meat no one wants or needs.

BottleBob wrote:

To All:

Sorry for crossposting, but I think it would be interesting to
see a little feedback on the results of Cliff's posting style. g


snip

--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob



Bob,

Your surveys are more worthwhile when they are _on topic_

For as long as I've been reading A.M.C.. its been mostly a discussion
group of malcontents and sociopaths. It's really a shame that it's been
spilling over into R.C.M. which is usually _on topic_ and more helpful
and educational than vindictive and provocative.

*rant mode OFF*

Thank you.
Fred

On Fri, 13 May 2005 16:42:51 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

"Robert Davidson" wrote in message
2...

That's sound advice Ed. Like you, I try not to make the problem worse in
the course of helping out. I've never made my opinion known on this
topic before, so I figured I'd make a one-time effort to try and calm the
waters. I don't have high hopes for success, but I gave it a shot.

FWIW, I've been here for a few years, and here's my take: Cliff has a lot of
time on his hands and he's decided to spend it by bugging the hell out of
right-wing snots who think they have the answer to everything, and that
everyone else stinks -- often by adopting their sarcasm and methods.

Watching them jump & whine G.
Then stick their heads in the sand.
Perhaps you just need a perverse sense of humor but they'd been
crossposting their BS, spew & hatred here (the major groups for
that are on the distribution for this thread, sorry about the
solidworks one in that specific case though) for a long, long time.

Jon
uses this place to gain affirmation for his CAD/CAM "expertise," which he
accomplishes by belittling any other software than that which is the apple
of his eye at the moment. Anyone who defends said offending software is
labeled an incompetent or a dupe.

Mostly because they can actually use it and actually have it I
suspect.
Or know what to do with it in a productive way.
He hates that as well as actual engineers, designers & programmers.

But some of what he posts is so clueless that it's funny .... and
newbies need to be protected a bit from what's usually his very bad
advice.

Others used to assist a bit more .....

Thus, we have two sources of antagonism going on at the same time.

You forgot the gone thumpers & Sunday Fundies, always willing to
tell us why we should kill for their bible or devil verses. They got a
bit logic shy g.

I don't
think anyone is going to calm the waters. That's not on the agenda. But we
can let the arguments become no more of a problem than background noise, by
ignoring them.

In my case, at least, I try to mark some threads OT as a hint.
If you don't want to play, don't.

Then there's the humor (sorry again, not usually posted
to the solidworks group - a dry bunch IMHO G).

On top of all of that there are the few interesting on-topic
threads ... but one has to wade thru 30 or so "How do I use EIA-232
on this machine?" type of posts first.
Along the way many probably get helped, in one way or another.

And BB gets educated a bit G.
--
Cliff

You should really stay with the alt.machines.cnc newsgroup. They are a
savvy enough group to put
up with your shenanigans. Which, by the way, Cliff should also.

Me personally? I couldn't care less. I just skip over most of them, but
with you adding
to the overall ...., it seems prudent just to add to the kill file.

Good luck!

"BottleBob" wrote in message
...
To All:

Sorry for crossposting, but I think it would be interesting to
see a little feedback on the results of Cliff's posting style. g


Please answer the following on a scale of 0 to 10:

1. Cliff's constructiveness: A "10" would indicate that you think
Cliff is a constructive poster, a "0" would indicate he's a destructive
poster.

[ ]


2. Cliff's credibility: A "10" is credible (Cliff's comments as
presented can be assumed to be factual), A "0" is not credible at all
(Cliff's comments as presented can't be trusted to be true and have to
be independently verified).

[ ]


3. Cliff's entertainment value: A "10" would indicate that Cliff is
very entertaining, a "0" would indicate that he's not entertaining in
the slightest.

[ ]


4. Cliff's posting value: A "10" would indicate you want MORE posts
from Cliff, a "0" would indicate you would rather Cliff just go away.

[ ]


Other comments:




--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

John Scheldroup wrote:

"Gary Knutson" wrote in message news:B2Xge.10062$D91.8470@fed1read01...
Any particular reason you didn't include the other offender (jb)in your survey?


Very, very poor judgment on Bib's behalf is why, IMO.

John:

I assume by "Bib" you mean me, correct? g


There is thread in alt.machines.cnc under the subject
entitled "Physics question" *was* currently all the rage
between Cliff and BB.

Still is, as far as I know. I just haven't been free today to read it
or respond yet.

This Survey comes as a surprise
to me, but now my question becomes can BB sustain
himself under scrutiny to then come back to scrutinize.
The Survey thread indicates to me "She just can't take much
more captain, she can't take it".

A surprise? Why should that be? I've criticized Cliff many times over
the years about his ad-homenium attacks of others, his attempted
character assassinations of those that don't share his political views,
his demonizing of those he labels "fundies", "wingers", etc. etc.


Instead of staying course exhanging spirited discussion
with Cliff, BB will do instead create a new subject designed to
weaken Cliff, break his concentration, so maybe I can get a
few words in edge wise ROFL.

What you've said sounds logically plausible, but as hypotheses
sometimes turn out, this one happens to be wrong. There is no
connection between the physics thread and this one. The connection
tenuous at best, if you can even call it that, IS that I had a day off
yesterday so therefore had the time to initiate this little survey, and
baby-sit it.

The physics thread and its two biggest proponents go figure.
Now does BB not seem to enjoy playing in the sandbox with Cliff,
just because Cliff threw some sand in my eyes!

Cliff kicked sand in my eyes? When? By his silly unicorn and lint
comments that he uses to deflect attention away from his inability to
present any valid supporting evidence for his points? You're kidding,
right? LOL

alright kids,
nuffs enough the physics sandbox is closed today and were having
JB find all the cat poop, you can come back to play tomorrow g

Win, lose, or draw, I've enjoyed my chats with Cliff on science related
issues. And even though I like Cliff, IMO, he is THE MOST DESTRUCTIVE
long term poster to a.m.cnc that there has ever been. He used to post
good info, but lately his obsession with trying to destroy Jon Banquer,
as well as belittling/demeaning Michael Gailey, Gunner, Roger N, Rick
Faust, Shu, etc. etc. is trashing a.m.cnc, in my opinion of course. If
a little survey "could possibly" show Cliff what others think about his
tactics and become the focal point for an alteration of his behavior...
don't you think that's a worthwhile goal?


--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

John Scheldroup wrote:

But, I think you have so much more to offer to the group. Every time you
personally attack someone,

Show us one google link which shows Cliff attacked someone.


John:

EXCUSE ME? Come on John, let's be a little objective here. Look at
just about any reply by Cliff to a post by Jon Banquer. Or doesn't
calling someone clueless, stupid, an idiot, a BS artist, etc. qualify as
a personal attack in your book?


--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

Robert Davidson wrote:


In fact, if Cliff really has NPD, trying to point
that out to him probably won't have any impact, will it?

Robert:

You're probably right that it won't. We've all got our psychological
quirks, some deny the evidence of this quite strenuously.


I've only been here for 4 or 5 months, so I respect the senior group
member's opinions very much. And, like I said before, I believe that we
can all judge Cliff (and everyone else, for that matter) based on his
actions. How each of us chooses to interact with him then becomes a
function of our individual judgment. Kind of like a democracy, no?


I'm sure this is quite true, but what's your solution? Urge Cliff to
seek the help of a mental health professional? Ban him from the group?

Neither one of those seem like viable solutions. BUT, if someone that
wishes to be a respected member of a community realizes that there are
limits to what most of the community sees as acceptable behavior... THAT
may be the start of a solution.


Cliff, if you are reading this, let me take the opportunity to say
Thanks. I haven't forgotten that you were one of the first to come to my
defense in this NG. You stood up for me and said I had as much right to
be here as anyone else; I appreciate that to this day.

But, I think you have so much more to offer to the group. Every time you
personally attack someone, I tune you out. Every time you make a
condescending post or try to show-up another NG member, I lose respect
for you. Please, please, please re-consider your reasons for being
here...if it's to stimulate your mind and have healthy interactions with
your peers, then change your ways and become a productive part of the
group. If it's to stir-up **** and watch people's heads explode, then
I'd rather you weren't here.

I think your post was cogent and very insightful, a breath of fresh
air.
--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

"BottleBob" wrote in message
...
John Scheldroup wrote:

But, I think you have so much more to offer to the group. Every time
you
personally attack someone,

Show us one google link which shows Cliff attacked someone.


John:

EXCUSE ME? Come on John, let's be a little objective here. Look at
just about any reply by Cliff to a post by Jon Banquer. Or doesn't
calling someone clueless, stupid, an idiot, a BS artist, etc. qualify as
a personal attack in your book?

I think the reason John doesn't get warped about those assaults by Cliff
(and I don't, either) is that everybody, including Cliff, knows that the
comments themselves aren't meant seriously. There is a real seriousness
underlying them, but the comments themselves come across as snide quips. You
can ignore them. They have no substance. They're more of an attitude than
specific accusations, except when he gets into a citation war with Gunner or
somebody like that.

Jon, on the other hand, will get real specific. Remember when he called me a
liar and a bull****ter for saying that his sacred Fords had lost to Ferraris
because of engine failure (for anyone foolish enough to care, they did,
which I documented)? He gets real specific, real nasty, all the way.

To sum it up, Jon likes to step on people and kill, as a matter of ego.
Cliff likes to knaw on living flesh, as a matter of disdain. Some people
find one or the other annoying, and one or the other reprehensible. We vary
in our reactions to them.

--
Ed Huntress