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Generator on kerosene
Many years ago, I was told that a small (or large?) gasoline engine will run
fine on kerosene. However, it will only run after it's warmed up, needs gasoline to get it started and running. The application for this is remote pump houses, and fire pumps in remote locations. The engine has a valve system for the fuels. A couple galons of gasoline are kept on hand, and replaced every couple months. A larger tank of kerosene is also present. The operation plan is that if the pump is needed, the operator comes in. Sets the valve to "gasoline" and pours in a galon into the smaller gas tank. Runs the engine to get it started, and warm, and then changes the valve to kerosene. When shutting down, it is then necessary to either run the engine dry, or change it back to gasoline. Now, to make this personal. I have a Coleman generator at home, with a 5 HP Briggs and Stratton engine. Supposing for the sake of discussion, we have an extended duration power cut. Has anyone personally had experience with this? Is this a correct description? I've got maybe 5 galons of gasoline at home, and about 20 galons of kerosene. It would be very nice to use a quart of gas to get my generator warmed up, and then pour kerosene into the tank. But I'd sure feel more reassured if someone else out there had done this, and knows that it it will work. Would have to run the generator dry, when shutting down. So as to allow to restart the next time on a quart or so of gasoline. I appreciate any ideas, advice, or thoughts. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org www.mormons.com |
A few years ago someone came out with low-volatile gasoline. The idea was
that you stick a gallon in your car trunk, and if you ever run out of gas, you have the spare gallon. But they removed the most volatile components, so it would not explode in a collision. It would not start a cold motor, but would run in a warm motor. It cost 10X the price of gasoline. If you could just use kerosene for that, then the product would have been unnecessary. (but since I haven't seen it in a few years, maybe it was unnecessary.) |
Back in the 50s - we had a farm - Dad was a coal miner - but he tried to
run a 10 acre farm on the side. One of the ways he used to "stretch" his money was to run a mixture of 50% kerosene and 50% gasoline. At the time gasoline was about 17 cents a gallon and kerosene was 5 cents a gallon - at the time that was a big savings. The tractor would jug along just fine on the mixture - it was a Ford Cub with the spread out front wheels. I used to love to "drive" it on the seat with him. Today - since home heating oil is "virtually" kerosene - one may be considering running a mixture of fuel oil and gasoline in their car to "save" money because fuel oil does not have a road tax on it. Just remember the government colors fuels for just that reason. I doubt if one would get caught - but it is a risk. During the 1978 "energy crisis" - I had a friend that bought a VW diesel - and used to run it on home heating oil which was half the price because of no road tax. He used to pull the car into the basement and gravity feed the fuel from the big red oil tank by the furnace. He would have gotten away with it if he didn't brag about it everyday in the faculty room - and some disgruntled soul turned him in. He got a big fine - plus a lot of bad publicity in the newspapers. PS - one time I owned a diesel Cadillac - never a diesel VW ;-) Harry |
Stormin Mormon wrote:
Many years ago, I was told that a small (or large?) gasoline engine will run fine on kerosene. However, it will only run after it's warmed up, needs gasoline to get it started and running. The application for this is remote pump houses, and fire pumps in remote locations. The engine has a valve system for the fuels. A couple galons of gasoline are kept on hand, and replaced every couple months. A larger tank of kerosene is also present. The operation plan is that if the pump is needed, the operator comes in. Sets the valve to "gasoline" and pours in a galon into the smaller gas tank. Runs the engine to get it started, and warm, and then changes the valve to kerosene. When shutting down, it is then necessary to either run the engine dry, or change it back to gasoline. Now, to make this personal. I have a Coleman generator at home, with a 5 HP Briggs and Stratton engine. Supposing for the sake of discussion, we have an extended duration power cut. Has anyone personally had experience with this? Is this a correct description? I've got maybe 5 galons of gasoline at home, and about 20 galons of kerosene. It would be very nice to use a quart of gas to get my generator warmed up, and then pour kerosene into the tank. But I'd sure feel more reassured if someone else out there had done this, and knows that it it will work. Would have to run the generator dry, when shutting down. So as to allow to restart the next time on a quart or so of gasoline. I appreciate any ideas, advice, or thoughts. Are you sure that was a gasoline engine they were talking about. Diesel and kerosene are very close. Gasoline is different. At best, I would expect that it would do the engine no good, if it worked. I am sure it would really screw up a modern automotive gasoline engine. It might have been a better idea to have bought a diesel engine generator tot start with. -- Joseph Meehan 26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math |
"Harry Everhart" wrote During the 1978 "energy crisis" - I had a friend that bought a VW diesel - and used to run it on home heating oil which was half the price because of no road tax. He used to pull the car into the basement and gravity feed the fuel from the big red oil tank by the furnace. He would have gotten away with it if he didn't brag about it everyday in the faculty room - and some disgruntled soul turned him in. He got a big fine - plus a lot of bad publicity in the newspapers. #2 Heating oil and diesel are basically the same thing. A lot of people were doing what you described and that is why they started putting the red dye in the heating oil (and kerosene). Supposedly if the cops pull over a trucker and they do an inspection, any dyed fuel in the tank will cost them $10,000 in fines. |
One thing for sure you will carbon up everything. A carboned piston,
head and valves will ruin a motors power. So get ready to dissasemble it for cleaning. Overall a dumb idea. |
"Joseph Meehan" wrote in message ... Stormin Mormon wrote: Many years ago, I was told that a small (or large?) gasoline engine will run fine on kerosene. However, it will only run after it's warmed up, needs gasoline to get it started and running. The application for this is remote pump houses, and fire pumps in remote locations. The engine has a valve system for the fuels. A couple galons of gasoline are kept on hand, and replaced every couple months. A larger tank of kerosene is also present. The operation plan is that if the pump is needed, the operator comes in. Sets the valve to "gasoline" and pours in a galon into the smaller gas tank. Runs the engine to get it started, and warm, and then changes the valve to kerosene. When shutting down, it is then necessary to either run the engine dry, or change it back to gasoline. Now, to make this personal. I have a Coleman generator at home, with a 5 HP Briggs and Stratton engine. Supposing for the sake of discussion, we have an extended duration power cut. Has anyone personally had experience with this? Is this a correct description? I've got maybe 5 galons of gasoline at home, and about 20 galons of kerosene. It would be very nice to use a quart of gas to get my generator warmed up, and then pour kerosene into the tank. But I'd sure feel more reassured if someone else out there had done this, and knows that it it will work. Would have to run the generator dry, when shutting down. So as to allow to restart the next time on a quart or so of gasoline. I appreciate any ideas, advice, or thoughts. Are you sure that was a gasoline engine they were talking about. Diesel and kerosene are very close. Gasoline is different. At best, I would expect that it would do the engine no good, if it worked. I am sure it would really screw up a modern automotive gasoline engine. It might have been a better idea to have bought a diesel engine generator tot start with. Yes, kerosene is basically super refined diesel fuel or heating oil. I can't imagine a gasoline engine could even combust it being it has such a lower flash point. I know you can easily run a diesel engine on kerosene..Been there done that.. Had an Oldsmobile Ninety Eight diesel and ran out of fuel backing out of the driveway. Ran to the shed, got my five gallon can of Kerosene and poured it in. Started right up and ran fine all the way to the fuel station. Don't think putting diesel in a gas engine would hurt the engine, other than quickly fouling the plugs if you could even get it to fire, but doing the opposite, putting gas in a diesel engine can cause damage quick... John |
"Harry Everhart" wrote in message Today - since home heating oil is "virtually" kerosene - one may be considering running a mixture of fuel oil and gasoline in their car to "save" money because fuel oil does not have a road tax on it. Just remember the government colors fuels for just that reason. I doubt if one would get caught - but it is a risk. With the the fuel filters and precision fuel injcetors, coupled with the computer tuning, I wonder if it would run at all. Years ago, I remember running a 1950 Chevy six with about half and half after a trucker filled the wrong tank. PS - one time I owned a diesel Cadillac - never a diesel VW ;-) I think the VW was probably faster . That GM diesel was a god awful engine. |
In article ,
"Joseph Meehan" wrote: Are you sure that was a gasoline engine they were talking about. Diesel and kerosene are very close. Gasoline is different. At best, I would expect that it would do the engine no good, if it worked. I am sure it would really screw up a modern automotive gasoline engine. It might have been a better idea to have bought a diesel engine generator tot start with. Joe - This was done in the 30s - 40s - 50s to save money. Yeah - the gasoline engine did not run the greatest on a mixture of kerosene/gasoline but it ran well enough to do the work. Times were tough and money was tight. You made do with whatever worked. We ran a Ford Cub Tractor on the mixture for 10 years - by the way - it was a very used tractor to start with :-) We also had a gasoline clothes washer on the back porch that ran on the same mixture. It was a two cylinder opposed engine - no carb - just a reeded dial that mixed the air and fuel. You twisted it open for more air - twisted it closed to stop it. The washe has a pedal similar to a motorcycle to start it. That was a sight seeing my 200 pound Mom "dancing" up and down on that starter pedal every Monday morning. Harry |
"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:
I think the VW was probably faster . That GM diesel was a god awful engine. No wonder I bought it so cheaply. :-) It did cruise well - it was one of the later ones. I set a personal best time record from PA to FL in it with only one stop for fuel. Don't ask. Harry PS - Wife loved it but we never drove with the windows down. |
Harry Everhart wrote:
"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote: I think the VW was probably faster . That GM diesel was a god awful engine. No wonder I bought it so cheaply. :-) It did cruise well - it was one of the later ones. I set a personal best time record from PA to FL in it with only one stop for fuel. Don't ask. Harry PS - Wife loved it but we never drove with the windows down. Initially those had terrible failure rates...they were simply the large-block gas engine w/ higher compression heads--head failures and cooling problems were rampant. They made modifications over the years and eventually they were servicable if not great...as you note, lack of convenient auto diesel pumps and noise/cold-starting/odor/initial cost made them a no-go w/ the public. Of course, now, w/ diesel as high or higher than gasoline, there's little incentive, either. |
Harry Everhart wrote:
In article , "Joseph Meehan" wrote: Are you sure that was a gasoline engine they were talking about. Diesel and kerosene are very close. Gasoline is different. At best, I would expect that it would do the engine no good, if it worked. I am sure it would really screw up a modern automotive gasoline engine. It might have been a better idea to have bought a diesel engine generator tot start with. Joe - This was done in the 30s - 40s - 50s to save money. Yeah - the gasoline engine did not run the greatest on a mixture of kerosene/gasoline but it ran well enough to do the work. Times were tough and money was tight. You made do with whatever worked. We ran a Ford Cub Tractor on the mixture for 10 years - by the way - it was a very used tractor to start with :-) Yes I've seen small single cylinder engines used for irrigation pumps and similar which had dual compartment fuel tanks. A large section for kero and a small one for gasoline. There was a valve you could turn to switch from one to the other, and you had to remember to switch it back to gas for a while before stopping it so there was gas, not kero in the carb bowl for the next start. Kero run farm tractors were quite common, again with gasoline used for starting. I strongly doubt that today's sophisticated engines and fuel systems could take that kind of treatment without serious modifications. Back during WWII I remember reading an article in either Popular Mechinics or Mechanix Illustrated showing how to add No.2 fuel oil burning capability to an ordinary car. IIRC in addition to needing two fuel tanks, they had you wrap a bunch of copper tubing around the exhaust manifold to deliver the fuel oil to the carb heated up so it would "work better". Gas was rationed during that war. I remember my dad had an "A" sticker on his windshield which was the lowest priority and entitled him to buy only 3 or 4 gallons of gasoline a week. (Actually it was RUBBER that was the big problem, the US had pretty good supplies of oil, but at the time the Japanese declared war we were getting over 95% of our rubber from Japan, and synthetics weren't really on line yet. So, rationing gas saved rubber.) We also had a gasoline clothes washer on the back porch that ran on the same mixture. It was a two cylinder opposed engine - no carb - just a reeded dial that mixed the air and fuel. You twisted it open for more air - twisted it closed to stop it. The washe has a pedal similar to a motorcycle to start it. That was a sight seeing my 200 pound Mom "dancing" up and down on that starter pedal every Monday morning. Harry I've still got a spark plug from one of those beasts in my box of "fun junk" It comes apart for cleaning. The name "Maytag" is printed on the other side of the insulator, you can just see the ending "g" in Maytag to the left of the "CHAM" in the right hand photo: http://home.comcast.net/~jwisnia18/temp/plug.jpg Thanks for the mammaries, Jeff -- Jeffry Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE) "As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public schools" |
In article ,
Jeff Wisnia wrote: I've still got a spark plug from one of those beasts in my box of "fun junk" It comes apart for cleaning. The name "Maytag" is printed on the other side of the insulator, you can just see the ending "g" in Maytag to the left of the "CHAM" in the right hand photo: http://home.comcast.net/~jwisnia18/temp/plug.jpg Thanks for the mammaries, Jeff Jeff - Thanks for the pix of the Maytag spark plug. That was it! I remember the whole washing machine was made of cast parts - maybe not iron - but something cast. Years later in the 60s - I made a "buggie" like a soap box racer with that engine in it. We hooked a belt to it and it barely powered the car - maybe 2 mph tops - you could walk faster than that. But I do remember the police coming up to "pull us over" and tell us we couldn't operate a motor powered vehicle without a license. Boy - times have changed. Even though it only went maybe two miles per hour - I was the envy of the neighborhood for a week. I guess I got "street cred" for being stopped by the cops. Harry |
My late father farmed in England and had many tractors that were
designed to start on gasoline, then switch over to TVO (="Tractor Vaporising Oil" = kerosene) once they warmed up. However, IMO an engine would have to be designed to run primarily on kerosene: if its viscosity is different from that of gasoline, the carburetor would need different-size jets; and what about the air-fuel proportions? (I even recall an International Harvester TD9 tracklayer that started on gasoline, then switched over to diesel!) Perce On 03/08/05 09:09 am Stormin Mormon tossed the following ingredients into the ever-growing pot of cybersoup: Many years ago, I was told that a small (or large?) gasoline engine will run fine on kerosene. However, it will only run after it's warmed up, needs gasoline to get it started and running. The application for this is remote pump houses, and fire pumps in remote locations. The engine has a valve system for the fuels. A couple galons of gasoline are kept on hand, and replaced every couple months. A larger tank of kerosene is also present. The operation plan is that if the pump is needed, the operator comes in. Sets the valve to "gasoline" and pours in a galon into the smaller gas tank. Runs the engine to get it started, and warm, and then changes the valve to kerosene. When shutting down, it is then necessary to either run the engine dry, or change it back to gasoline. Now, to make this personal. I have a Coleman generator at home, with a 5 HP Briggs and Stratton engine. Supposing for the sake of discussion, we have an extended duration power cut. Has anyone personally had experience with this? Is this a correct description? I've got maybe 5 galons of gasoline at home, and about 20 galons of kerosene. It would be very nice to use a quart of gas to get my generator warmed up, and then pour kerosene into the tank. But I'd sure feel more reassured if someone else out there had done this, and knows that it it will work. Would have to run the generator dry, when shutting down. So as to allow to restart the next time on a quart or so of gasoline. I appreciate any ideas, advice, or thoughts. |
Duane Bozarth wrote:
They made modifications over the years and eventually they were servicable if not great...as you note, lack of convenient auto diesel pumps and noise/cold-starting/odor/initial cost made them a no-go w/ the public. Of course, now, w/ diesel as high or higher than gasoline, there's little incentive, either. I did NOT love my Caddy diesel - but it was a good dependable car. The reason I bought it was because - it was two years old and it was at least $5000 less than a gas powered one of the same year - like $9000 instead of $14,000. In the winter - I would fuel up with diesel and put 5 gallons of kerosene in to prevent fuel gelling. You had to drive it like a diesel - lots of torque - good top end cruising - low RPM - but noisy - smelly - hated to fuel up - smelly hands. also it has two 12 volt batteries for cranking. Nothing like today's fine VW diesels. Harry |
On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 12:46:14 -0500, Jeff Wisnia
wrote: Harry Everhart wrote: In article , "Joseph Meehan" wrote: Are you sure that was a gasoline engine they were talking about. Diesel and kerosene are very close. Gasoline is different. At best, I would expect that it would do the engine no good, if it worked. I am sure it would really screw up a modern automotive gasoline engine. It might have been a better idea to have bought a diesel engine generator tot start with. Joe - This was done in the 30s - 40s - 50s to save money. Yeah - the gasoline engine did not run the greatest on a mixture of kerosene/gasoline but it ran well enough to do the work. Times were tough and money was tight. You made do with whatever worked. We ran a Ford Cub Tractor on the mixture for 10 years - by the way - it was a very used tractor to start with :-) Yes I've seen small single cylinder engines used for irrigation pumps and similar which had dual compartment fuel tanks. A large section for kero and a small one for gasoline. There was a valve you could turn to switch from one to the other, and you had to remember to switch it back to gas for a while before stopping it so there was gas, not kero in the carb bowl for the next start. Kero run farm tractors were quite common, again with gasoline used for starting. I strongly doubt that today's sophisticated engines and fuel systems could take that kind of treatment without serious modifications. Back during WWII I remember reading an article in either Popular Mechinics or Mechanix Illustrated showing how to add No.2 fuel oil burning capability to an ordinary car. IIRC in addition to needing two fuel tanks, they had you wrap a bunch of copper tubing around the exhaust manifold to deliver the fuel oil to the carb heated up so it would "work better". Gas was rationed during that war. I remember my dad had an "A" sticker on his windshield which was the lowest priority and entitled him to buy only 3 or 4 gallons of gasoline a week. (Actually it was RUBBER that was the big problem, the US had pretty good supplies of oil, but at the time the Japanese declared war we were getting over 95% of our rubber from Japan, and synthetics weren't really on line yet. So, rationing gas saved rubber.) We also had a gasoline clothes washer on the back porch that ran on the same mixture. It was a two cylinder opposed engine - no carb - just a reeded dial that mixed the air and fuel. You twisted it open for more air - twisted it closed to stop it. The washe has a pedal similar to a motorcycle to start it. That was a sight seeing my 200 pound Mom "dancing" up and down on that starter pedal every Monday morning. Harry I've still got a spark plug from one of those beasts in my box of "fun junk" It comes apart for cleaning. The name "Maytag" is printed on the other side of the insulator, you can just see the ending "g" in Maytag to the left of the "CHAM" in the right hand photo: http://home.comcast.net/~jwisnia18/temp/plug.jpg Thanks for the mammaries, Jeff You'll probably like this link as well.. Look half way down the page for the washing machine.. http://galthistory.org/gasengine/2003.htm Chuck |
Harry Everhart wrote:
In article , Jeff Wisnia wrote: I've still got a spark plug from one of those beasts in my box of "fun junk" It comes apart for cleaning. The name "Maytag" is printed on the other side of the insulator, you can just see the ending "g" in Maytag to the left of the "CHAM" in the right hand photo: http://home.comcast.net/~jwisnia18/temp/plug.jpg Thanks for the mammaries, Jeff Jeff - Thanks for the pix of the Maytag spark plug. That was it! I remember the whole washing machine was made of cast parts - maybe not iron - but something cast. Years later in the 60s - I made a "buggie" like a soap box racer with that engine in it. We hooked a belt to it and it barely powered the car - maybe 2 mph tops - you could walk faster than that. But I do remember the police coming up to "pull us over" and tell us we couldn't operate a motor powered vehicle without a license. Boy - times have changed. Even though it only went maybe two miles per hour - I was the envy of the neighborhood for a week. I guess I got "street cred" for being stopped by the cops. Harry Did your family's washing machine also have that rolling mill like water squeezer outer thingus on top which gave birth to the expression, "I got my tit in a wringer"...? Jeff -- Jeffry Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE) "As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public schools" |
Chuck wrote:
http://galthistory.org/gasengine/2003.htm Thanks Chuck! The gray washing machine behind the green washing machine was ours. I do remember both of them though. Pictures like that jog the memory so much. Wow. Don't get me wrong - things are so much better now - cars - houses - TVs - appliances - medications - schools - planes - clothes - you name it. But your past is fleeting - gone forever - it is nice for just a taste of it. :-) In our case - we had to fill the washing machine with pots of water that we hand pumped from the well and put on the stove. Then you would wash the clothes - then run them thru the wringer by hand - then fill with cold water from the pump again - then rinse the clothes - then run them thru the ringer - then hang them on the line - then iron them because they were really wrinkled. Harry |
Harry Everhart wrote:
....regarding old GM diesel... ... I bought it was because ... it was at least $5000 less than a gas powered one of the same year ... Yeah, that was the result of the rampant earlier failures and thus the resale value was the pits for them...I considered one once for the same reason but decided not to take the chance... |
Harry Everhart wrote:
.... old times... .... In our case - we had to fill the washing machine with pots of water that we hand pumped from the well and put on the stove. Then ... Just out of curiousity, where/when was this? We didn't get REA power until '48, but had wind Delco generator well prior to that... |
According to Joseph Meehan :
Are you sure that was a gasoline engine they were talking about. Diesel and kerosene are very close. Gasoline is different. gasoline, kerosene and diesel are _almost_ exactly the same thing. Each is a mixture of varying weight hydrocarbons, more or less directly off a fractionating tower. The only difference is that the average molecular weight of the hydrocarbons is lowest in gasoline, higher in kerosene, and highest in diesel. [In a standard fractionating tower, there's usually "taps" off for LPG, butane, light and heavy gasoline, light and heavy kerosene, light and heavy diesel, and then various kinds of asphalt. You make various grades of gasoline primarily by varying the light/heavy ratio. Similarly summer versus winter weight diesel etc] Conceptually, there's no reason a gasoline engine couldn't run off diesel. In practise, gasoline engines are pretty finely tuned, and something thicker than gasoline will throw it off, perhaps too far off to operate properly. -- Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them. |
Duane Bozarth wrote:
Yeah, that was the result of the rampant earlier failures and thus the resale value was the pits for them...I considered one once for the same reason but decided not to take the chance... Quite frankly - I bought the Caddy with the intention of switching it over to a gas 350 engine. Each time I took it to a shop to do it - they told me I had the "good" diesel engine - and that it would run forever - and I was wasting money. I drove it for 4 years and 60,000 miles - traded in on a new car. Harry |
Duane Bozarth wrote:
In our case - we had to fill the washing machine with pots of water that we hand pumped from the well and put on the stove. Then ... Just out of curiousity, where/when was this? We didn't get REA power until '48, but had wind Delco generator well prior to that... I was born in a farm house about 30 miles north of Allentown PA in Schuylkill County. I lived there from 1948 when I born until 1954. We moved to big city of Tamaqua PA 10 miles away(10,000 people at the time - now closer to 7000) so that I could go to a school building that had each grade in a separate room. I attended part of first grade in a one room school that had 8 rows of desks - one for each grade. We had electricity - but no plumbing. We had a hand pump on the well - and later I remember getting and electric well pump and one cold faucet in the sink. We were so proud of that - but never had an indoor bathroom. We took Saturday night baths in a metal tub in front of the coal stove with water heated on the stove. We even had to cross a paved road to the outhouse - to keep the sewage away from our well. But we did have TV and I remember seeing Harry Truman being sworn in when I was just 4 in 1952. We had a big party and all the neighbors came over. In 1954 we sold 10 acres with a stream and railroad frontage - a big house - and three level barn for $3000. Boy I wish I had that back. The place recently sold for $350,000 - it has a bathroom now but the hand pump well is still out back. Do the math - I am only 57. Harry |
Jeff Wisnia wrote:
Did your family's washing machine also have that rolling mill like water squeezer outer thingus on top which gave birth to the expression, "I got my tit in a wringer"...? Jeff We called that a wringer and I could see how easily one could get a teat caught there - I remember getting my fingers pinched there more than once :-) |
Re GM Diesels:: I had an 82 Olds 98 Diesel. We went from San Antonio to
Michigan on slightly over 2 tanks of fuel. I finally got rid of it because it looked so ratty, but it still ran fine. I bought it wrecked for $500 in about 1990 or 91. Spent about $50 fixing the wreck damage. A black junk yard fender on a brown car LOL. Kept intending to paint it but never did. The first couple of years they had the Diesel (78 & 79) they were converted gas blocks. They had all kinds of problems. Over the years they improved them gradually- blocks had a higher nickel content, stronger crankshafts, heavier main bearing webs, roller lifters, better head bolts. They still had head gasket problems to the end. The biggest problem IMO is that they only have 10 head bolts. Supposedly there is a set of stainless steel studs available, and some kind of improved gasket, that they claim will nearly eliminate problems. There are still some die hard fans of them. I have seen several Olds and Caddys bring a fortune on EBay. I remember going to a house with my former neighbor, an electrician, to help him on a side job. The guy had an oil furnace-- one of very few around here. There was a big above ground tank, I would guess 500 gal or so. up on legs. On the outlet to the tank was a Tee, on one side was the line going to the house, the other want to a regular fuel hose and nozzle. Parked right next to the tank was a beautiful top of the line Buick station wagon. One guess what engine it had. At the time I think heating oil was about $.65/gal. I had toyed with the idea of putting an oil furnace in my house and doing the same thing, but figured with my luck I'd get caught. Larry |
I have summer home in PA with an oil furnace and one of those big oil
tanks. See it at - www.harry.everhart.com. There is a picture of furnace - you will surprised how small it is. It burns maybe 300 gallons a year. My "friend" had a VW rabbit diesel. He even had a spare fuel tank in it where the spare tire went. He carried 30 gallons - went about 1000 miles between fills. He was caught. |
Harry Everhart wrote:
Duane Bozarth wrote: In our case - we had to fill the washing machine with pots of water that we hand pumped from the well and put on the stove. Then ... Just out of curiousity, where/when was this? We didn't get REA power until '48, but had wind Delco generator well prior to that... I was born in a farm house about 30 miles north of Allentown PA in Schuylkill County. I lived there from 1948 when I born until 1954. We moved to big city of Tamaqua PA 10 miles away(10,000 people at the time - now closer to 7000) so that I could go to a school building that had each grade in a separate room. I attended part of first grade in a one room school that had 8 rows of desks - one for each grade. We had electricity - but no plumbing. We had a hand pump on the well - and later I remember getting and electric well pump and one cold faucet in the sink. We were so proud of that - but never had an indoor bathroom. We took Saturday night baths in a metal tub in front of the coal stove with water heated on the stove. We even had to cross a paved road to the outhouse - to keep the sewage away from our well. But we did have TV and I remember seeing Harry Truman being sworn in when I was just 4 in 1952. We had a big party and all the neighbors came over. In 1954 we sold 10 acres with a stream and railroad frontage - a big house - and three level barn for $3000. Boy I wish I had that back. The place recently sold for $350,000 - it has a bathroom now but the hand pump well is still out back. Do the math - I am only 57. Harry Well, I'm just 3 years ahead of you, Harry... :) It's interesting the difference in areas...in SW KS when Grandad broke out the home quarter around 1900 he was still a very young feller working for the Santa Fe "back east" about 100 miles and coming out for a week or so at a time. By 1910 or thereabouts he had saved enough w/ a brother to quit and borrow $300 for a mule and a wagon. The house was started in 1914 (prior to that they lived in a shed/barn combination) but had lighting (the Delco windcharger system) and indoor plumbing from the beginning. I was born in '45 and remember the Delco but we were so far from anywhere there was no point in having a TV until after I was out of college. While in VA/TN and traveling on business through most of the E-TN/SW-VA/WVA/E-PN coal country (we manufactured/sold/serviced online ashmeters to mines/prep plants) I became really aware of the differences in cultures. Working w/ TVA in later years also emphasised the difference. As noted, we got "real" power in '48 in large part because my folks started the drive to spur the formation of a local rural-electric co-op as soon as the war was over--they had been plotting during the last year or so prior to that. Dad served on the board for 50 years as well as farming. I came back after he passed away. We know own/rent/farm rough 1200 A and the whole land value isn't much more than what your 10A w/ house went for... :) |
Two requirements for running satisfactorily on kerosene are missing on your
engine. Compression ratio must be much lower; I do not recall exactly what ratios are used but I think about 4 or 5 to 1. A lot of intake manifold heat or a separate "vaporizer" to get the kerosene vapor hot enough to ignite readily. My wife mistakenly put kerosene in the tank of a hot lawnmower. The engine started but knocked severely with lots of white smoke from the exhaust. Don Young "Stormin Mormon" wrote in message .. . Many years ago, I was told that a small (or large?) gasoline engine will run fine on kerosene. However, it will only run after it's warmed up, needs gasoline to get it started and running. The application for this is remote pump houses, and fire pumps in remote locations. The engine has a valve system for the fuels. A couple galons of gasoline are kept on hand, and replaced every couple months. A larger tank of kerosene is also present. The operation plan is that if the pump is needed, the operator comes in. Sets the valve to "gasoline" and pours in a galon into the smaller gas tank. Runs the engine to get it started, and warm, and then changes the valve to kerosene. When shutting down, it is then necessary to either run the engine dry, or change it back to gasoline. Now, to make this personal. I have a Coleman generator at home, with a 5 HP Briggs and Stratton engine. Supposing for the sake of discussion, we have an extended duration power cut. Has anyone personally had experience with this? Is this a correct description? I've got maybe 5 galons of gasoline at home, and about 20 galons of kerosene. It would be very nice to use a quart of gas to get my generator warmed up, and then pour kerosene into the tank. But I'd sure feel more reassured if someone else out there had done this, and knows that it it will work. Would have to run the generator dry, when shutting down. So as to allow to restart the next time on a quart or so of gasoline. I appreciate any ideas, advice, or thoughts. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org www.mormons.com |
In my case it was blue smoke and the engine was a 2-cycle, a Dolmar
chainsaw. I bouhgt the saw second -hand for a brushing project, where we had to cut alder trees about 2-5" in diam. A couple of days into the project, bush camp, I woke up sick, went out, filled my jugs from a 5 gallon jug we kept under a tarp there, and rode up to the job site. Of course the fiver was full of kerosene for the space heater, and i was so plugged up i never even smelled it. The saw was full of gas from the day before. I ran three tanks of kerosene through it before coffee, blowing smoke like a house on fire, and finally got over to where my buddies were, asked to borrow a tuning screwdriver, get the piece of %$* to rev up right. "Did you spill kerosene on your pants this morning?" somebody sez, handing me a screwdriver and sniffing the air. Yeah we had a good laugh about that. No harm done, and that saw ran till it shook itself apart many years later. JohnK |
Stormin, What are you using to heat your home? If your are hooked up to LP gas or natural gas, then there are conversion kits which will enable your generator to run off that fuel instead of gasoline. There are a few problems with such a conversion: 1) You've got to spend some money ($100 or so) for the conversion parts. 2) Unless you buy a much more expensive conversion, then you can't easily switch back and forth between gasoline and natural gas. 3) Your engine will produce fewer horsepower, which means fewer watts being output. Crude estimate - about 10% less power. On the plus side, you'll usually never fear running out of fuel for even a long term power outage and you don't have the danger of storing large quantities of gasoline. If the conversion isn't a viable option and I were making the decision, then I'd just buy a couple of large gasoline containers and store another 15 or 20 gallons of gasoline (with stabilizer added). Rotate your stock every year or two. How many vehicles do you own? If you are concerned about power outages, then top off your vehicle gas tanks frequently and have a good gasoline pump available. If you store the gasoline for a long time in plastic containers, then be aware that the more volatile components of the gasoline will leech through the plastic during long term storage. Blend old storage gasoline at least 50-50 with new gasoline when rotating stock to your vehicles. Likewise, be aware that the generator won't start as easily on gasoline which has been stored long term in plastic. Have some starting fluid around or (better yet) keep at least one gallon of gasoline stored in a metal container. I've got over twenty gallons of gasoline in storage containers. I've got 4 vehicles, with an average total of at least 50 additional gallons of gasoline which can be pumped out if needed during an outage. If I'm really desperate, then I've also got a few gallons of assorted gas-oil mixes which can be blended into the fuel for a generator (about 1 part in 10). Obviously, I'd prefer to not have oil in the fuel, but a small amount isn't a big problem if I'm concerned about a serious power outage. With 70 or more gallons of gasoline at my disposal, I can keep one or both of my generators running for a fair amount of time. Probably longer than the short life of those cheap Briggs engines in the generators. :) Obviously I'm not going to pump all of the gasoline out of my vehicles, so I can always send somebody out for more gasoline after I've used up most of the 70 or so gallons. Gideon |
Some of this discussion has moved from talking about diesel fuel in generators
and moved to diesel fuel in automobiles. I skimmed through my file of "car talk" columns from the newspaper and found a familiar column which I had read last year. I was surprised by the apparent severity of even small amount of diesel, such as 1 gallon in 20, in the fuel for modern gasoline engines. I found this same article on the Internet and I've copied it below, along with appropriate credit to the authors (who have written several good books). I am curious how extension the recommended fix would be if this person had actually run the engine with the diesel-gasoline mixture. All his wife did was put the mixture into the fuel tank. Gideon http://www.cartalk.com/content/colum...4/July/08.html Tom & Ray Magliozzi (The "Car Talk" guys) July 2004 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Dear Tom and Ray: This evening, my overworked, overbooked, type-A wife accidentally put about 3.5 gallons of diesel into her nearly empty 1998 Honda Odyssey. Upon realizing her mistake, she filled up the rest of the 12-gallon tank with gasoline. At that point, she wisely decided to call me before trying to drive it. I told her to park it, and I immediately called two mechanics to get their advice. I first called the dealer, and he said not to drive the car and to have it towed in. He said he would have to drain the gas tank and steam-clean it to get the diesel out and then check to see how far into the system the diesel fuel might have gotten. If we were lucky, it wouldn't have gotten sucked into the fuel pump, the fuel line or the injectors. If we weren't lucky, the dealer sure would be! Then I called my trusty curbside mechanic, who comes to the house with all his tools and equipment in his truck and always provides me with reliable repair service for about a quarter of what the dealer quotes. He said that we probably could drive it. It would smoke some while the diesel burned out, but he thought that it might be OK, except maybe we would have to replace the oxygen sensors. I usually like to take the path of least resistance, but in this case I felt it would be better to be safe than sorry, and we had the car towed in for service. What should we do before driving it? Thank you, and don't fuel like my wife. -- Neil RAY: Well, I think the dealer gave you the correct advice, Neil. But you might not need to be quite as thorough as he's suggesting. And you certainly don't have to let him do the work, if you like your buddy, Crusty McToolbox, better. TOM: It sounds like your wife never even ran the engine with the diesel fuel. So, we can say with confidence that none of it got into the fuel lines. All of it's still in the tank. RAY: The tank needs to be removed and drained. You can probably skip the steam-cleaning phase, as I'm guessing that less than half a cup of diesel will remain on the fuel-tank walls. TOM: After you reinstall the tank and refill it with gasoline, I'd have Crusty remove the fuel line where it joins the fuel rail, up in the engine compartment. Then you can cycle the fuel pump (without running the engine) and take a sample of the fuel in a glass bottle. Let it settle out and see if it looks clean. Do this several times, or until you get good, clean-looking gasoline. Then hook everything back up and drive it. RAY: The fuel injectors shouldn't be bothered, even if there is still a tiny amount of diluted diesel fuel in the tank -- it'll just burn right up in the cylinders without any problem. Crusty is right, though, that if you ran a quantity of diesel through the engine, you'd be putting the oxygen sensors at real risk. And they're not cheap to replace. TOM: But I don't think the diluted remnants of half a cup of diesel fuel in 12 gallons of gasoline will do any harm. Of course, if we're wrong and your fuel system is ruined, let us know, so we can warn the next poor schlub who does this. Good luck, Neil. |
I've seen that in stores. I wonder if a galon of kerosene would do the same
job. Or if it's possible to run a gasoline auto or truck engine on kero. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org www.mormons.com "toller" wrote in message ... A few years ago someone came out with low-volatile gasoline. The idea was that you stick a gallon in your car trunk, and if you ever run out of gas, you have the spare gallon. But they removed the most volatile components, so it would not explode in a collision. It would not start a cold motor, but would run in a warm motor. It cost 10X the price of gasoline. If you could just use kerosene for that, then the product would have been unnecessary. (but since I haven't seen it in a few years, maybe it was unnecessary.) |
Hmm. That gets me thinking. I wonder if kerosene would do damage to a modern
vehicle? I'm thinking like the times when the power is out, and I've got some kero around the house. But the truck is low on gas. Pour some kero into the truck.... or not? -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org www.mormons.com "Gideon" wrote in message ... Some of this discussion has moved from talking about diesel fuel in generators and moved to diesel fuel in automobiles. I skimmed through my file of "car talk" columns from the newspaper and found a familiar column which I had read last year. I was surprised by the apparent severity of even small amount of diesel, such as 1 gallon in 20, in the fuel for modern gasoline engines. I found this same article on the Internet and I've copied it below, along with appropriate credit to the authors (who have written several good books). I am curious how extension the recommended fix would be if this person had actually run the engine with the diesel-gasoline mixture. All his wife did was put the mixture into the fuel tank. Gideon http://www.cartalk.com/content/colum...4/July/08.html Tom & Ray Magliozzi (The "Car Talk" guys) July 2004 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- - Dear Tom and Ray: This evening, my overworked, overbooked, type-A wife accidentally put about 3.5 gallons of diesel into her nearly empty 1998 Honda Odyssey. Upon realizing her mistake, she filled up the rest of the 12-gallon tank with gasoline. At that point, she wisely decided to call me before trying to drive it. I told her to park it, and I immediately called two mechanics to get their advice. I first called the dealer, and he said not to drive the car and to have it towed in. He said he would have to drain the gas tank and steam-clean it to get the diesel out and then check to see how far into the system the diesel fuel might have gotten. If we were lucky, it wouldn't have gotten sucked into the fuel pump, the fuel line or the injectors. If we weren't lucky, the dealer sure would be! Then I called my trusty curbside mechanic, who comes to the house with all his tools and equipment in his truck and always provides me with reliable repair service for about a quarter of what the dealer quotes. He said that we probably could drive it. It would smoke some while the diesel burned out, but he thought that it might be OK, except maybe we would have to replace the oxygen sensors. I usually like to take the path of least resistance, but in this case I felt it would be better to be safe than sorry, and we had the car towed in for service. What should we do before driving it? Thank you, and don't fuel like my wife. -- Neil RAY: Well, I think the dealer gave you the correct advice, Neil. But you might not need to be quite as thorough as he's suggesting. And you certainly don't have to let him do the work, if you like your buddy, Crusty McToolbox, better. TOM: It sounds like your wife never even ran the engine with the diesel fuel. So, we can say with confidence that none of it got into the fuel lines. All of it's still in the tank. RAY: The tank needs to be removed and drained. You can probably skip the steam-cleaning phase, as I'm guessing that less than half a cup of diesel will remain on the fuel-tank walls. TOM: After you reinstall the tank and refill it with gasoline, I'd have Crusty remove the fuel line where it joins the fuel rail, up in the engine compartment. Then you can cycle the fuel pump (without running the engine) and take a sample of the fuel in a glass bottle. Let it settle out and see if it looks clean. Do this several times, or until you get good, clean-looking gasoline. Then hook everything back up and drive it. RAY: The fuel injectors shouldn't be bothered, even if there is still a tiny amount of diluted diesel fuel in the tank -- it'll just burn right up in the cylinders without any problem. Crusty is right, though, that if you ran a quantity of diesel through the engine, you'd be putting the oxygen sensors at real risk. And they're not cheap to replace. TOM: But I don't think the diluted remnants of half a cup of diesel fuel in 12 gallons of gasoline will do any harm. Of course, if we're wrong and your fuel system is ruined, let us know, so we can warn the next poor schlub who does this. Good luck, Neil. |
More inserted.
-- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org www.mormons.com "Gideon" wrote in message ... Stormin, What are you using to heat your home? If your are hooked up to LP gas or natural gas, then there are conversion kits which will enable your generator to run off that fuel instead of gasoline. CY: I'm on NG. However, this isn't totally about one home. Last power cut, I took the generator to some friends house, and ran their furnace. There are a few problems with such a conversion: 1) You've got to spend some money ($100 or so) for the conversion parts. 2) Unless you buy a much more expensive conversion, then you can't easily switch back and forth between gasoline and natural gas. 3) Your engine will produce fewer horsepower, which means fewer watts being output. Crude estimate - about 10% less power. CY: A ten percent power cut doesn't bother me all that much. But, spending a hundred bucks for a conversion does. The "even more expensive" conversion sounds less desirable. On the plus side, you'll usually never fear running out of fuel for even a long term power outage and you don't have the danger of storing large quantities of gasoline. CY: I've found the NG to be very dependable, here. So you're right about less concern about running out of fuel. Of course, it's just a pipe in the ground. If the fuel company stops pushing NG into the pipe, I'll stop getting NG out of the pipe. If the conversion isn't a viable option and I were making the decision, then I'd just buy a couple of large gasoline containers and store another 15 or 20 gallons of gasoline (with stabilizer added). Rotate your stock every year or two. CY: That is very practical answer. This might be the year to build an outdoor shed. How many vehicles do you own? If you are concerned about power outages, then top off your vehicle gas tanks frequently and have a good gasoline pump available. CY: Two, and that is a very good thought. I've got a couple of those squeeze bulb siphons, which aren't all that useful. I had a hand pump, that also wasn't all that useful. If you store the gasoline for a long time in plastic containers, then be aware that the more volatile components of the gasoline will leech through the plastic during long term storage. CY: I did not think of htat. Yes, my gas "can" is plastic. A plastic gas can, to me, is like a plastic knife. It just isn't the same. Blend old storage gasoline at least 50-50 with new gasoline when rotating stock to your vehicles. CY: Or pour in a gas "can" every couple weeks into a tank of fuel. Likewise, be aware that the generator won't start as easily on gasoline which has been stored long term in plastic. Have some starting fluid around or (better yet) keep at least one gallon of gasoline stored in a metal container. CY: I'll have to try to find metal gas CANS for when I build my shed. I've got over twenty gallons of gasoline in storage containers. I've got 4 vehicles, with an average total of at least 50 additional gallons of gasoline which can be pumped out if needed during an outage. If I'm really desperate, then I've also got a few gallons of assorted gas-oil mixes which can be blended into the fuel for a generator (about 1 part in 10). Obviously, I'd prefer to not have oil in the fuel, but a small amount isn't a big problem if I'm concerned about a serious power outage. CY: Well, it runs in the chainsaw.... I'm with you, two stroke mix goes in the generator if it has to. With 70 or more gallons of gasoline at my disposal, I can keep one or both of my generators running for a fair amount of time. Probably longer than the short life of those cheap Briggs engines in the generators. :) CY: Yes, that's for sure. And mine is a cheapo consumer model. The challenge is to stay out of sight, so your neighbors aren't coming over for a cup of sugar, and a galon of gas. Obviously I'm not going to pump all of the gasoline out of my vehicles, so I can always send somebody out for more gasoline after I've used up most of the 70 or so gallons. CY: Right, don't want to be caught without transportation. Gideon CY: GReat bunch of thoughts, and I do thank you. |
In 1971 - don't ask me why - I was young and "green." I was a science
teacher that wanted to show off my knowledge I guess. I bought a new Chevy Vega - and had a propane tank put in the trunk and a carb fitted that would work with propane. I was so proud that I had a car that could "run inside" with little pollution. Clean burning propane would allow the engine to run forever without needing new plugs or tuneups. In those days when cars started up - especially in winter - they idled terribly until they were warm but propane startups were really smooth. I would be helping the energy crisis - I told my students. What I did not tell them was - what a problem it was finding places to fill up. Also - that you got less miles per gallon on propane than gasoline. After a year or so - the whole idea wore thin (I got married) - I put the old carb back on and ran it on gasoline. In 1973 - Winnebago made the Brave motor home with a dual fuel option - gasoline and propane. Just the other day I was in the junk yard - buying a replacement engine for a friend's car. The junk yard guy - took us out in the yard with a 20 pound propane tank and a battery. Whenever we wanted to start and engine - that was sitting for months - he would stick a propane tube in the carb - hook up the battery - and the engine would fire right up and run smoothly. Harry |
Duane Bozarth wrote:
It's interesting the difference in areas...in SW KS when Grandad broke out the home quarter around 1900 he was still a very young feller working for the Santa Fe "back east" about 100 miles and coming out for a week or so at a time. Hi Duane - That is a great story. Like I said - we remember the good stuff about back then - not the trudging to the outhouse on cold snowy nights or peeing in a bed pan and sliding it under the bed. The cold feeling on your feet from "oil cloth" on a cold wood floor over a crawl space. Throw rugs woven from rags. Being the third person in a tub on Saturday night. I would like to go back and visit for a couple days - but I really enjoy our modern things like - satellite tv - tivo - computers - cell phones - campers - GPS - motor scooters - sports cars - jets - bikinis - mp3's. Harry |
NO
"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message ... I've seen that in stores. I wonder if a galon of kerosene would do the same job. Or if it's possible to run a gasoline auto or truck engine on kero. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org www.mormons.com "toller" wrote in message ... A few years ago someone came out with low-volatile gasoline. The idea was that you stick a gallon in your car trunk, and if you ever run out of gas, you have the spare gallon. But they removed the most volatile components, so it would not explode in a collision. It would not start a cold motor, but would run in a warm motor. It cost 10X the price of gasoline. If you could just use kerosene for that, then the product would have been unnecessary. (but since I haven't seen it in a few years, maybe it was unnecessary.) |
Stormin,
The article I posted was a year old and was discussing a 1998 Honda Odyssey. I'd consider that to be a modern car - It's newer than 3 of my four vehicles. :) Based upon that article which I posted, I'd avoid fuel oil in any gasoline engine. Gideon |
Toller,
We're drifting off topic a bit, but for those who want to have a moderately safe gallon of gas in the truck for emergencies, I've sometimes carried one of those sealed 1 gallon containers of Coleman white gas for the Coleman lanterns. It is more expensive that gasoline at the pump, but still far less than 10x. It is absolutely spill proof since it has that metal seal on top which must be pierced before you can pour out the product. I'm sure that it has been pre-treated with a gasoline stabilizing compound. I do not know about the volatile components - it could still be explosive if/when the container is punctured in an accident. When I've carried it, I have stored it an area of the trunk which I consider to be the safest area. I also protect it as much as possible from moving about. Note: I've carried these gallon cans but never actually needed to use one. But I have been assured by my chemist friends that this white gas works fine in an auto and that a modern computer-controlled car should start on this gas. Gideon |
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