Greetings,

Latex admixture for concrete costs many fold what cheap latex paint costs
($4/gallon). What would happen if I just used latex paint instead? Yes, I
know it probably won't be as good as the special purpose admixture-- but how
far off are we talking about?

Thank you for your time,
William

Acryl 60 and the other latex modifiers with which I am familiar
smell more like Elmer's glue than paint. At he cost of equivalent
volumes of glue, I do not see a reason to not use the correct
stuff.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Keep the whole world singing . . . .
DanG (remove the sevens)




"William Deans" wrote in message
news:1104079996.e9b225753d87406f8b841fda8e34f8ca@t eranews...
Greetings,

Latex admixture for concrete costs many fold what cheap latex
paint costs
($4/gallon). What would happen if I just used latex paint
instead? Yes, I
know it probably won't be as good as the special purpose
admixture-- but how
far off are we talking about?

Thank you for your time,
William

Greetings,

I don't think it is unreasonable to investigate latex paint.

According to:
http://www.cdnpaint.org/enviro11land...texpaint_e.htm

"
Uses for latex paint are also being investigated, including applications in
finished concrete products for reinforcing properties.
"

According to:
http://www.carwash.com/article.asp?IndexID=4220803

"
Ordinary latex paints typically contain about 25 percent to 30 percent
solids by volume and 70 percent to 75 percent water, while top-quality latex
paints generally have 35 percent to 45 percent solids and only 55 percent to
65 percent water.
"

"
Low PVC paints (10 percent to 22 percent) have a low ratio of pigment to
binder and are generally associated with a glossy paint. Conversely, higher
PVC paints (45 percent to 75 percent) are loaded with pigment compared to
binder which results in a flat finish. Paints with a satin finish have a PVC
in the 28 percent to 38 percent range. (See Figure 5.)
"

I think this means a cheap gloss paint is over 20% latex. As far as I know
latex is the only active ingredient in latex admixtures. This means that if
latex admixtures contain 40% latex using cheap paint is about the same as
using one part admixture and one part water.

These are just my thoughts. I could be missing important facts like "not
all latex is the same" or "latex paint contains some other chemical that
destroys concrete" etc, etc. I am looking for additional input before I
actually switch from admixture to latex paint.

Hope this helps,
William

"DanG" wrote in message
news:INCzd.3370$4h.3055@okepread03...
Acryl 60 and the other latex modifiers with which I am familiar
smell more like Elmer's glue than paint. At he cost of equivalent
volumes of glue, I do not see a reason to not use the correct
stuff.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Keep the whole world singing . . . .
DanG (remove the sevens)




"William Deans" wrote in message
news:1104079996.e9b225753d87406f8b841fda8e34f8ca@t eranews...
Greetings,

Latex admixture for concrete costs many fold what cheap latex
paint costs
($4/gallon). What would happen if I just used latex paint
instead? Yes, I
know it probably won't be as good as the special purpose
admixture-- but how
far off are we talking about?

Thank you for your time,
William

I have a bunch of latex paint that I would like to get rid of in a
responsible way. When I have time I think I will mix the old paint with
concrete mix and see if the concrete cures. Give your idea a test, won't
cost much or take too much time.

William Deans wrote:
Greetings,

Latex admixture for concrete costs many fold what cheap latex paint costs
($4/gallon). What would happen if I just used latex paint instead? Yes, I
know it probably won't be as good as the special purpose admixture-- but how
far off are we talking about?

Thank you for your time,
William

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 02:49:27 GMT, andy everett
scribbled this interesting note:

William Deans wrote:
Greetings,

Latex admixture for concrete costs many fold what cheap latex paint costs
($4/gallon). What would happen if I just used latex paint instead? Yes, I
know it probably won't be as good as the special purpose admixture-- but how
far off are we talking about?

Thank you for your time,
William



I have a bunch of latex paint that I would like to get rid of in a
responsible way. When I have time I think I will mix the old paint with
concrete mix and see if the concrete cures. Give your idea a test, won't
cost much or take too much time.


To make it a good test it will require patience. Mix up some with
conventional water and some with latex paint. Use both in identical
fashions for the exact same amount of time. Report back after several
years of use after examining both samples inside and out for
defects...

Actually, I've kind of already done this, but only with the more
expensive latex admixture. I patched a place on my driveway with
sandmix and admixture to see how it holds up as compared with sandmix
mixed with water (I admit there is an assumption here...I'm assuming
the previous patches, which were done before I arrived at this
property, were done with sandmix and water...a pretty safe assumption,
I think.)

After six years or so the sandmix mixed with the latex admixture is
still solid and holding firm with no chips and no flaking off.

Perhaps now I'll have to do the experiment with some leftover latex
house paint...I've got a bucket or two I'll not use again...I just
wonder how a multicolored driveway will look???


--
John Willis
(Remove the Primes before e-mailing me)

"William Deans" wrote in message
news:1104079996.e9b225753d87406f8b841fda8e34f8ca@t eranews...
Greetings,

Latex admixture for concrete costs many fold what cheap latex paint costs
($4/gallon). What would happen if I just used latex paint instead? Yes,
I
know it probably won't be as good as the special purpose admixture-- but
how
far off are we talking about?

Thank you for your time,
William


looks like the department of transportation uses WLP (waste platex paint) in
concrete used for barricades
http://www.productstewardship.us/sup...nPaintUses.ppt
and its benefits are similar to using virgin latex

William Deans writes:

Latex admixture for concrete costs many fold what cheap latex paint
costs ($4/gallon). What would happen if I just used latex paint
instead? Yes, I know it probably won't be as good as the special
purpose admixture-- but how far off are we talking about?

There are several items used both as concrete fortifiers and paint
polymers, including acrylics and PVA (polyvinyl acetate). PVA is also
what is in white glue or Elmer's glue. (Indeed, you can improvise your
own paint out of Elmer's and pigments).

PVA concrete admixes typically advise against immersion. Not as
resistant to water as acrylic.

The questions I would raise are (1) proportion of polymer vs water in
paint may be lower than in the more expensive admix, and (2) paint has
pigments and viscosity modifiers that will likely weaken the concrete.
So it is hard to tell whether you get more polymer per dollar in paint
vs admix.

(NB: "latex" in the context of paint or an admix has nothing to do with
rubber. It just means "emulsion", in this case of acrylic or PVA
monomers.)

As to whether it works, you can improvise scientific testing of concrete
for bonding and compressive strength with a shop press, if you are so
equipped.

If I had to guess, I would expect waste paint to improve concrete, but
not as much as a real admix.

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 00:02:51 -0600, "effi" scribbled
this interesting note:

"William Deans" wrote in message
news:1104079996.e9b225753d87406f8b841fda8e34f8ca@ teranews...
Greetings,

Latex admixture for concrete costs many fold what cheap latex paint costs
($4/gallon). What would happen if I just used latex paint instead? Yes,
I
know it probably won't be as good as the special purpose admixture-- but
how
far off are we talking about?

Thank you for your time,
William


looks like the department of transportation uses WLP (waste platex paint) in
concrete used for barricades
http://www.productstewardship.us/sup...nPaintUses.ppt
and its benefits are similar to using virgin latex



Just did a search of my own and turned this up:
http://www.csr.org/wdo_reports/finalreport.pdf

Seems to indicate that latex paint in concrete in promising, but more
work needs to be done to study it and improve on the few complications
noted.

Perhaps I'll give this a try when I finish patching up my own
driveway!:~)


--
John Willis
(Remove the Primes before e-mailing me)

Thanks Andy.

Please do let me know how it goes,
William

"andy everett" wrote in message
news:XKKzd.12401$fe5.6220@trndny06...
I have a bunch of latex paint that I would like to get rid of in a
responsible way. When I have time I think I will mix the old paint with
concrete mix and see if the concrete cures. Give your idea a test, won't
cost much or take too much time.

William Deans wrote:
Greetings,

Latex admixture for concrete costs many fold what cheap latex paint
costs
($4/gallon). What would happen if I just used latex paint instead?
Yes, I
know it probably won't be as good as the special purpose admixture-- but
how
far off are we talking about?

Thank you for your time,
William

Greetings,

It is true that I could do some experimentation - and because things look
promising I will. That said I thought the first prudent step before
experimentation was to do some research and to ask the opinion of others.
This isn't a troll. It's a legitimate inquiry with some degree or promise.

Hope this helps,

William


wrote in message
...
On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 01:08:19 GMT, 3rd eye wrote:

On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 11:59:48 -0500, "William Deans"
wrote:

Greetings,

Latex admixture for concrete costs many fold what cheap latex paint
costs
($4/gallon). What would happen if I just used latex paint instead?
Yes, I
know it probably won't be as good as the special purpose admixture--

but how
far off are we talking about?

I'm assuming this is a rhetorical question.

Or a troll.

You can't really be thinking of doing this, are you?

It's too bad you aren't half as bright as this kid.

http://www.sciencenewsforkids.org/ar...ceFairZone.asp

Greetings,

If your current paint is white (or light coloured) you might consider asking
home depot to add a bit more tent to match it up with your driveway. In
theory, a properly tinted Latex patch should be a better match than sandmix.

Hope this helps,
William


"John Willis" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 02:49:27 GMT, andy everett
scribbled this interesting note:

William Deans wrote:
Greetings,

Latex admixture for concrete costs many fold what cheap latex paint
costs
($4/gallon). What would happen if I just used latex paint instead?
Yes, I
know it probably won't be as good as the special purpose admixture--
but how
far off are we talking about?

Thank you for your time,
William



I have a bunch of latex paint that I would like to get rid of in a
responsible way. When I have time I think I will mix the old paint with
concrete mix and see if the concrete cures. Give your idea a test, won't
cost much or take too much time.


To make it a good test it will require patience. Mix up some with
conventional water and some with latex paint. Use both in identical
fashions for the exact same amount of time. Report back after several
years of use after examining both samples inside and out for
defects...

Actually, I've kind of already done this, but only with the more
expensive latex admixture. I patched a place on my driveway with
sandmix and admixture to see how it holds up as compared with sandmix
mixed with water (I admit there is an assumption here...I'm assuming
the previous patches, which were done before I arrived at this
property, were done with sandmix and water...a pretty safe assumption,
I think.)

After six years or so the sandmix mixed with the latex admixture is
still solid and holding firm with no chips and no flaking off.

Perhaps now I'll have to do the experiment with some leftover latex
house paint...I've got a bucket or two I'll not use again...I just
wonder how a multicolored driveway will look???


--
John Willis
(Remove the Primes before e-mailing me)

FIVE STAR REPLY!

You posed two questions:
(Q1) proportion of polymer vs water in paint may be lower than in the more
expensive admix

Answer:
cheap gloss latex paint is 20%+ polymer == please see numbers / sources in
previous post
Latex admixture is 4x% polymer.
Based on these numbers you get substantially more polymer/dollar with paint.
I am happy to hear that the polymers used in concrete admixtures are likely
the same as those used in paint.

(Q2) paint has pigments and viscosity modifiers that will likely weaken the
concrete.

Answer:
I am not aware that paint pigment weakens concrete (and I could always use
paint mixing base) but I am very happy you mentioned the viscosity
modifiers. They could be a deal killer and I will check them out right
away.

Thanks again,
William


"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message
. ..
William Deans writes:

Latex admixture for concrete costs many fold what cheap latex paint
costs ($4/gallon). What would happen if I just used latex paint
instead? Yes, I know it probably won't be as good as the special
purpose admixture-- but how far off are we talking about?

There are several items used both as concrete fortifiers and paint
polymers, including acrylics and PVA (polyvinyl acetate). PVA is also
what is in white glue or Elmer's glue. (Indeed, you can improvise your
own paint out of Elmer's and pigments).

PVA concrete admixes typically advise against immersion. Not as
resistant to water as acrylic.

The questions I would raise are (1) proportion of polymer vs water in
paint may be lower than in the more expensive admix, and (2) paint has
pigments and viscosity modifiers that will likely weaken the concrete.
So it is hard to tell whether you get more polymer per dollar in paint
vs admix.

(NB: "latex" in the context of paint or an admix has nothing to do with
rubber. It just means "emulsion", in this case of acrylic or PVA
monomers.)

As to whether it works, you can improvise scientific testing of concrete
for bonding and compressive strength with a shop press, if you are so
equipped.

If I had to guess, I would expect waste paint to improve concrete, but
not as much as a real admix.

I think the problem is that there isn't that much latex in the paint, it is
mostly water.
If the paint is free it might be worth a shot but I wouldn't count on it
working. You might find out there is more than one kind of "latex" or there is
something else in paint that compromises concrete.
A lot also depends on the property you desire from your admix.
ASTM spends a lot of money assuring the result you get with specified products.
Anything else is a crap shoot.
It might be noted crap shooters win about half the time tho ;-)

Why not get the MSDS for the admixture and compare it to the MSDS for your
paint? If latex is the stuff that you are looking for you can buy liquid
latex for about $20 a gallon.

But if all you are going to do is top your driveway with a skim layer, ask
yourself these questions:

1] If you are able to successfully substitute latex paint for admixture for
this project, how much will you save?

2] If you substitute latex paint for admixture and you fail to achieve the
desired result, how much will it cost you to redo the project?

Of course you could experiment on a small scale but the trick there would be
to quantify your results. For instance if you poured yourself a small slab
of concrete and then topped it wit your experimental mixture, is this going
to predict how your mixture will do when you trowel it all over your
driveway?

Seems to me that there are a lot of variables here to control for, and
given the answer I suspect will arise when you answer questions 1 and 2 it
seems to me that you will find that you are better off leaving the chemistry
to the chemists.

--

Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.
"William Deans" wrote in message
news:1104177589.5d0260be888d95d3dd18e6bc776cb457@t eranews...
FIVE STAR REPLY!

You posed two questions:
(Q1) proportion of polymer vs water in paint may be lower than in the more
expensive admix

Answer:
cheap gloss latex paint is 20%+ polymer == please see numbers / sources
in
previous post
Latex admixture is 4x% polymer.
Based on these numbers you get substantially more polymer/dollar with
paint.
I am happy to hear that the polymers used in concrete admixtures are
likely
the same as those used in paint.

(Q2) paint has pigments and viscosity modifiers that will likely weaken
the
concrete.

Answer:
I am not aware that paint pigment weakens concrete (and I could always use
paint mixing base) but I am very happy you mentioned the viscosity
modifiers. They could be a deal killer and I will check them out right
away.

Thanks again,
William


"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message
. ..
William Deans writes:

Latex admixture for concrete costs many fold what cheap latex paint
costs ($4/gallon). What would happen if I just used latex paint
instead? Yes, I know it probably won't be as good as the special
purpose admixture-- but how far off are we talking about?

There are several items used both as concrete fortifiers and paint
polymers, including acrylics and PVA (polyvinyl acetate). PVA is also
what is in white glue or Elmer's glue. (Indeed, you can improvise your
own paint out of Elmer's and pigments).

PVA concrete admixes typically advise against immersion. Not as
resistant to water as acrylic.

The questions I would raise are (1) proportion of polymer vs water in
paint may be lower than in the more expensive admix, and (2) paint has
pigments and viscosity modifiers that will likely weaken the concrete.
So it is hard to tell whether you get more polymer per dollar in paint
vs admix.

(NB: "latex" in the context of paint or an admix has nothing to do with
rubber. It just means "emulsion", in this case of acrylic or PVA
monomers.)

As to whether it works, you can improvise scientific testing of concrete
for bonding and compressive strength with a shop press, if you are so
equipped.

If I had to guess, I would expect waste paint to improve concrete, but
not as much as a real admix.

Roger Shoaf writes:

Why not get the MSDS for the admixture and compare it to the MSDS for
your paint? If latex is the stuff that you are looking for you can
buy liquid latex for about $20 a gallon.

MSDSs don't typically give emulsion concentrations.

Easy enough to test yourself from samples, though. Wet some paper towels
with the samples, let them dry. Weigh (A) before wetting, (B) after
wetting, and (C) after drying. Proportion of solids is (C-A)/(B-A).

I used this method to evaluate various brands of admix for a big job. They
like to hide their competitive facts like how much water you're buying.