or is it an error?

the previous owner built kind of a ragtag fence around the front yard.
it's about 260 ft. of fence.

the fence is built with 4x4 posts set into concrete, probably done in
the early 1970's. the rails are 2x4" (double). the fence pickets are 3'
tall, 1/4" x 1" W. very thin--most are broken or missing. some of the
rails are mounted flat, some vertical--not sure why. many of the flatted
rails have bowed terribly and come loose from the posts (no brackets,
all simple nailed).

questions:

my plan is to replace the loose posts (about 3 out of 30 are slightly
loose) then add new fence rails where they have bowed, hang all fence
rails vertically, use brackets on the ends (rather than just nails), and
use 7-1/2"x3/4"x3' cedar pickets as fill, with some space inbetween.

the 4x4x4ft. posts have 32" above ground and are spaced at 10'. from
what i have read, most people space at 8' or less.

comments? my biggest concern is whether or not i should respace the
posts down to 8 ft.

am in california desert in very stable, dry clay soil.

I'd certainly leave the post spacing as is unless its crooked, then I'd
straighten it.
Your pickets@3/4 are gonna be too heavy, especially during monsoon season.

"Flash" wrote in message
news:_aGxd.1314$Y57.69@trnddc08...
or is it an error?

the previous owner built kind of a ragtag fence around the front yard.
it's about 260 ft. of fence.

the fence is built with 4x4 posts set into concrete, probably done in
the early 1970's. the rails are 2x4" (double). the fence pickets are 3'
tall, 1/4" x 1" W. very thin--most are broken or missing. some of the
rails are mounted flat, some vertical--not sure why. many of the flatted
rails have bowed terribly and come loose from the posts (no brackets,
all simple nailed).

questions:

my plan is to replace the loose posts (about 3 out of 30 are slightly
loose) then add new fence rails where they have bowed, hang all fence
rails vertically, use brackets on the ends (rather than just nails), and
use 7-1/2"x3/4"x3' cedar pickets as fill, with some space inbetween.

the 4x4x4ft. posts have 32" above ground and are spaced at 10'. from
what i have read, most people space at 8' or less.

comments? my biggest concern is whether or not i should respace the
posts down to 8 ft.

am in california desert in very stable, dry clay soil.

Flash wrote:
or is it an error?

the previous owner built kind of a ragtag fence around the front yard.
it's about 260 ft. of fence.

the fence is built with 4x4 posts set into concrete, probably done in
the early 1970's. the rails are 2x4" (double). the fence pickets are
3' tall, 1/4" x 1" W. very thin--most are broken or missing. some of
the rails are mounted flat, some vertical--not sure why. many of the
flatted rails have bowed terribly and come loose from the posts (no
brackets, all simple nailed).

questions:

my plan is to replace the loose posts (about 3 out of 30 are slightly
loose) then add new fence rails where they have bowed, hang all fence
rails vertically, use brackets on the ends (rather than just nails),
and use 7-1/2"x3/4"x3' cedar pickets as fill, with some space
inbetween.
the 4x4x4ft. posts have 32" above ground and are spaced at 10'. from
what i have read, most people space at 8' or less.

comments? my biggest concern is whether or not i should respace the
posts down to 8 ft.

am in california desert in very stable, dry clay soil.

You're going to put a seven-and-a-half foot picket on a 2-3/4 foot post
system? Five foot of freeboard?

I suspect, in addition to the top looking wavy, the first little blow is
going to put so much torque on the fence that it's going to capsize with the
loss of all souls aboard.

JerryMouse wrote:
Flash wrote:

or is it an error?

the previous owner built kind of a ragtag fence around the front yard.
it's about 260 ft. of fence.

the fence is built with 4x4 posts set into concrete, probably done in
the early 1970's. the rails are 2x4" (double). the fence pickets are
3' tall, 1/4" x 1" W. very thin--most are broken or missing. some of
the rails are mounted flat, some vertical--not sure why. many of the
flatted rails have bowed terribly and come loose from the posts (no
brackets, all simple nailed).

questions:

my plan is to replace the loose posts (about 3 out of 30 are slightly
loose) then add new fence rails where they have bowed, hang all fence
rails vertically, use brackets on the ends (rather than just nails),
and use 7-1/2"x3/4"x3' cedar pickets as fill, with some space
inbetween.
the 4x4x4ft. posts have 32" above ground and are spaced at 10'. from
what i have read, most people space at 8' or less.

comments? my biggest concern is whether or not i should respace the
posts down to 8 ft.

am in california desert in very stable, dry clay soil.


You're going to put a seven-and-a-half foot picket on a 2-3/4 foot post
system? Five foot of freeboard?

I suspect, in addition to the top looking wavy, the first little blow is
going to put so much torque on the fence that it's going to capsize with the
loss of all souls aboard.


no not at all sorry if i left that impression i would swear the local
DIY had 7-1/2" WIDE (that's on inches) cedar pickets. the new pickets
will be no more than 36" long.

so the other poster says it will be too heavy with these pickets at 10
ft. spacing and also that the posts were okay but the pickets are too
heavy for the span...but did bother to say what a proper picket weight
would be...or the sizes appropriate...

i was under the impression that 5-7" (inch wide) pickets would add
stability along the rails esp. if screwed in places, off to the sides of
the picket.

also i have read that the spacing must be less than 3" due to children
possibly attempting to stick their heads through it and getting stuck.

thanks for the quick replies and sorry about failing to emphasize the
inches in width of the proposed pickets.

"Flash" wrote in message
news:_aGxd.1314$Y57.69@trnddc08...
or is it an error?

the previous owner built kind of a ragtag fence around the front yard.
it's about 260 ft. of fence.

the fence is built with 4x4 posts set into concrete, probably done in the
early 1970's.

Worked OK for 30 years right? Seems like a lot of work to correct a
non-problem.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"Flash" wrote in message
news:_aGxd.1314$Y57.69@trnddc08...

or is it an error?

the previous owner built kind of a ragtag fence around the front yard.
it's about 260 ft. of fence.

the fence is built with 4x4 posts set into concrete, probably done in the
early 1970's.


Worked OK for 30 years right? Seems like a lot of work to correct a
non-problem.


sorry if you missed it, most of the original pickets are broken or gone,
and that many of the flat-mounted rails have bowed and detached from the
posts. the fence is currently a shambles except for the posts.

the other replies were somewhat useful, especially the first where the
poster says the proposed pickets are too heavy for a 10 ft. span--yet
claims a 10 ft. span is alright (?) alright for what?

i was thinking wider pickets would be good because i could space the
screws wide across the face, reinforcing the rail to some extent.

on the other hand, it gets heavy...so does anyone know where i can find
guidelines for picket with, number of rails, length of span, picket
spacing, etc...or is this "insider only" stuff? apparently some codes
demand 3" spacing for child safety.

IMO you should re-do the entire fence. 4x4 set in concrete 30 years
ago have to be rotted out and ready to fall over by now. I would at
least extract the "loose" ones and see what they look like before
proceeding.

Harry K

Harry K wrote:
IMO you should re-do the entire fence. 4x4 set in concrete 30 years
ago have to be rotted out and ready to fall over by now. I would at
least extract the "loose" ones and see what they look like before
proceeding.

Harry K

okay will do...my neighbor drove into one last year and it shattered the
4x4 and dislodged the concrete a bit so i'm thinking they are a-ok for
the most part. stuff lasts forever in the desert as long as it's kept
painted (most of the posts still have plenty of paint on them).

an offlist msg. suggests i use sleepers at the 5 ft. mark--just simple
poles to support the extra weight, so i'm still thinking about things.

mostly, i wish the previous owner had spaced the posts at 8 ft. and used
some decent pickets and such...sigh.

---
FF

Desert...yes. I was wondering how a wood post could last 30 years in
concrete. They rot from ground level down, not up. Painting will not
affect that.

Harry K

You have a pretty good plan. Some suggestions however.

On the posts you install consider using galvanized pipe. They make
galvanized brackets to attach the rails. These will not rust or rot. If
you don't like the pipe idea, use pressure treated lumber or redwood.

If you use lumber, be sure to cut some kind of angle on the top so water
won't stand and rot the posts. When you set the posts in cement slope the
top of the cement so water drains away.

Make sure your pickets are spaced up a bit if they stand in dirt or on the
cement walkway the ends will rot.

if you use pressure treated lumber for the posts, use stainless fasteners.
The new stuff they treat the wood with will eat anything else.

If the span length is a problem, you can add truss rods from the top of the
post to the middle of the bottom rail and then tighten the turn buckle to
take out the sag.

Use hot dip galvanized nails to attach the pickets. The ring shank or screw
type hold better than common or box nails.

For 260 feet of fence consider renting or buying a nail gun.

Make a jig to hold the picket and space it properly to save you the trouble
of placing each picket and making sure it is plumb.

For your rails bevel the top edge away from the pickets so water does not
settle in between the picket and the rail.

Select carefully the lumber you make the rails from. You don't want the
rail to be cut from the center section of the tree. The straighter the end
grain is, the less twist you will have.
--

Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.



"Flash" wrote in message
news:_aGxd.1314$Y57.69@trnddc08...
or is it an error?

the previous owner built kind of a ragtag fence around the front yard.
it's about 260 ft. of fence.

the fence is built with 4x4 posts set into concrete, probably done in
the early 1970's. the rails are 2x4" (double). the fence pickets are 3'
tall, 1/4" x 1" W. very thin--most are broken or missing. some of the
rails are mounted flat, some vertical--not sure why. many of the flatted
rails have bowed terribly and come loose from the posts (no brackets,
all simple nailed).

questions:

my plan is to replace the loose posts (about 3 out of 30 are slightly
loose) then add new fence rails where they have bowed, hang all fence
rails vertically, use brackets on the ends (rather than just nails), and
use 7-1/2"x3/4"x3' cedar pickets as fill, with some space inbetween.

the 4x4x4ft. posts have 32" above ground and are spaced at 10'. from
what i have read, most people space at 8' or less.

comments? my biggest concern is whether or not i should respace the
posts down to 8 ft.

am in california desert in very stable, dry clay soil.

Roger Shoaf wrote:
You have a pretty good plan. Some suggestions however.

On the posts you install consider using galvanized pipe. They make
galvanized brackets to attach the rails. These will not rust or rot. If
you don't like the pipe idea, use pressure treated lumber or redwood.

If you use lumber, be sure to cut some kind of angle on the top so water
won't stand and rot the posts. When you set the posts in cement slope the
top of the cement so water drains away.

Make sure your pickets are spaced up a bit if they stand in dirt or on the
cement walkway the ends will rot.

if you use pressure treated lumber for the posts, use stainless fasteners.
The new stuff they treat the wood with will eat anything else.

If the span length is a problem, you can add truss rods from the top of the
post to the middle of the bottom rail and then tighten the turn buckle to
take out the sag.

Use hot dip galvanized nails to attach the pickets. The ring shank or screw
type hold better than common or box nails.

For 260 feet of fence consider renting or buying a nail gun.

Make a jig to hold the picket and space it properly to save you the trouble
of placing each picket and making sure it is plumb.

For your rails bevel the top edge away from the pickets so water does not
settle in between the picket and the rail.

Select carefully the lumber you make the rails from. You don't want the
rail to be cut from the center section of the tree. The straighter the end
grain is, the less twist you will have.

wow thanks for the great hints i'll print this and take it with me! very
little rain out here so water running off things is not too big of an issue.

Flash wrote:

No real complaints about Roger's suggestions but I'll add one
alternative...

I really like the very narrow picket look much better than wide that
you've been discussing. Look for the pre-painted twisted-wire picket
fence--will come in 50 or 100 ft rolls. Is roughly 1-1/4" wide picket
w/ shaped top, w/ three support wires. I have sections that have been
up here on the farm for nearly 50 years or so--they're just now
beginning to really need replacement. We're dry, but not desert...

Just a suggestion for an alternative look that is easy...

I suspect you're posts are in pretty good shape owing to the dry weather
if they were treated or one of the better soil-resistants woods
initially. A creosote fence post will last 50 years here easily...some
of the ones around the house have been in place here since right after
the dust bowl drought was broken in the mid-30's and Grandpa re-graded
the yard then...

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 07:16:03 GMT, Flash
wrote:

Roger Shoaf wrote:
You have a pretty good plan. Some suggestions however.

On the posts you install consider using galvanized pipe. They make
galvanized brackets to attach the rails. These will not rust or rot. If
you don't like the pipe idea, use pressure treated lumber or redwood.

If you use lumber, be sure to cut some kind of angle on the top so water
won't stand and rot the posts. When you set the posts in cement slope the
top of the cement so water drains away.

Make sure your pickets are spaced up a bit if they stand in dirt or on the
cement walkway the ends will rot.

if you use pressure treated lumber for the posts, use stainless fasteners.
The new stuff they treat the wood with will eat anything else.

If the span length is a problem, you can add truss rods from the top of the
post to the middle of the bottom rail and then tighten the turn buckle to
take out the sag.

Use hot dip galvanized nails to attach the pickets. The ring shank or screw
type hold better than common or box nails.

For 260 feet of fence consider renting or buying a nail gun.

Make a jig to hold the picket and space it properly to save you the trouble
of placing each picket and making sure it is plumb.

For your rails bevel the top edge away from the pickets so water does not
settle in between the picket and the rail.

Select carefully the lumber you make the rails from. You don't want the
rail to be cut from the center section of the tree. The straighter the end
grain is, the less twist you will have.

wow thanks for the great hints i'll print this and take it with me! very
little rain out here so water running off things is not too big of an issue.


As a construction type, I think these are good ideas for you but I
think I might make the trusses outa wood because I'm not sure how well
the endpoints of the rods will stay anchored correctly in the wood
especially under tension as the wood ages under the hot sun (rods
don't take compression in theory). Also I'd consider inverted V
trusses (at least 2 truss members between posts). The negatives here
might be more costly and more work but I think this will last longer
as well as be stronger.

No matter what you choose to do, pay particular attention to
connection details because no matter how strong the members are, if
the connections fail, the fence will weaken and in time fail.

jim wrote:

....
No matter what you choose to do, pay particular attention to
connection details because no matter how strong the members are, if
the connections fail, the fence will weaken and in time fail.

Sage advice...in arid climate (even more so than ours) following will
last a long time (TM)

Simply drill through the post and attach horizontal rails w/ carriage
bolt. Run rails, need not concern about matching ends at posts...use
either a 2x4 blocker or a flat strap at joints and bolt there. In wet
climates there's an issue of water entrapment at the joint but where
it's dry like here they lasted, as I said above, 30-40 years w/ no
attention. Grandpa/Dad set 8' post space and ran 12' to 16' rails.
Actually easier than trying to capture both ends on a single post
(although 4x4 posts are easier in that regard than the round posts
here). The rails were/are Doug fir which weathers well, albeit is now
expensive...but this was done before treated was available.

jim wrote in message ...
On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 07:16:03 GMT, Flash
wrote:


As a construction type, I think these are good ideas for you but I
think I might make the trusses outa wood because I'm not sure how well
the endpoints of the rods will stay anchored correctly in the wood
especially under tension as the wood ages under the hot sun (rods
don't take compression in theory).


Look at a garden gate. You have an 1/8 or larger rod with a nut and a
washer on each side and a turn bucle in the middle. In the case in
question, all you need to do is to attch eye bolts either the screw in type
or drill through at an angle and use eye bolts with a nut and a washer.

Also the rods are not in compression, they are in tension. The rails are
supported at the ends so sag would be in the middle. Running from the
middle of the lower rail to either the outer edge of the upper rail.

The advantage here is you put your level on the rail and give a couple of
twists to the turn buckle and you are done. 5 years from now if something
sags a couple of twists of the turn buckle and you are back in business.


Also I'd consider inverted V
trusses (at least 2 truss members between posts). The negatives here
might be more costly and more work but I think this will last longer
as well as be stronger.

You are not supporting a second story on a house here you are preventing sag
on a couple of 2X4's 10 feet long. If you were going to make inverted v out
of lumber you might as well just plant another post hole and be done with
it.

--

Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 10:08:19 -0800, "Roger Shoaf"
wrote:


jim wrote in message ...
On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 07:16:03 GMT, Flash
wrote:


As a construction type, I think these are good ideas for you but I
think I might make the trusses outa wood because I'm not sure how well
the endpoints of the rods will stay anchored correctly in the wood
especially under tension as the wood ages under the hot sun (rods
don't take compression in theory).


Look at a garden gate. You have an 1/8 or larger rod with a nut and a
washer on each side and a turn bucle in the middle. In the case in
question, all you need to do is to attch eye bolts either the screw in type
or drill through at an angle and use eye bolts with a nut and a washer.

Also the rods are not in compression, they are in tension. The rails are
supported at the ends so sag would be in the middle. Running from the
middle of the lower rail to either the outer edge of the upper rail.

The advantage here is you put your level on the rail and give a couple of
twists to the turn buckle and you are done. 5 years from now if something
sags a couple of twists of the turn buckle and you are back in business.


Also I'd consider inverted V
trusses (at least 2 truss members between posts). The negatives here
might be more costly and more work but I think this will last longer
as well as be stronger.

You are not supporting a second story on a house here you are preventing sag
on a couple of 2X4's 10 feet long. If you were going to make inverted v out
of lumber you might as well just plant another post hole and be done with
it.


That depends on what the OP wants to do. I was trying to make
suggestions based on his post layout now. 2X4's 10 feet long on the
flat is a long span and over the years will sag again so the truss
will take out the sag for a long time.

Also if the rod ends are within the wood and the wood splits the rod
ends may not hold up well especially under tension loads. The trusses
will last longer tho maybe cost more ??

"Flash" wrote in message
news:T4Qxd.6833$rL3.2506@trnddc03...

very
little rain out here so water running off things is not too big of an
issue.

It might not be a *big* issue, but taking a little time now to cut a couple
of angles will be worth your time.

Good luck,

--
Roger Shoaf
If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent.

Roger Shoaf wrote:

....
It might not be a *big* issue, but taking a little time now to cut a couple
of angles will be worth your time.

Or, more likely, his heirs' time...

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...


Or, more likely, his heirs' time...

It would only take a couple of minutes per post to do. I suppose that if
those few minutes of time were that precious then you could omit the bevels,
but I like doing the job right. I have some rental property that every
corner that could be cut was cut and fixing things there always is a
surprise taking more time than it should, so I tend not to cut corners,
especially if doing it right only takes a short amount of time more.

--

Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.

sweet...lots of great replies to read through...thanks everyone!