OK, I know they are legally necessary, but why? What is the benefit of
obtaining a permit when I renovate the interior of my home? We're expanding
a bathroom.

"Michelle" wrote in message
...
OK, I know they are legally necessary, but why? What is the benefit of
obtaining a permit when I renovate the interior of my home? We're
expanding
a bathroom.

Primarily insurance. Let's say you install wiring in the house, and it is
not up to code, and there is no permit to show it was done properly. Then
your house burns down and the fire is traced to that wiring. You'll be hard
pressed to get an insurance company to pay for the damages. Another
potential pit fall is selling the home. It's possible the lack of a permit
could hold up the sale.

I know where you are coming from. I was contemplating not getting permits
for my pool install. Seeing some mistakes that were made, and then were
caught by the inspectors, gives me a sweet peace of mind. Get the permits,
it's worth it.

BV.

Permits is the way your jurisdiction funds it's building department. For that
you get an inspection or two.
Mainly you get the permit so if one of your neighbors "rats you out" you will
be covered.
"Insurance" is bull****. The "inspection" is so minimal that thwere is no
aassurance that you actually did the work right. Insurance companied know that.
Your rate might change because of specific additions you add (like a pool) but
that is really just a call to your agent. If your insurance company is going to
screw you, they are going to screw you no matter what. Get a better insurance
company.
Sometimes the inspector barely even gets out of his car. It is not his fault,
they are expected to do between 20 and 40 a day depending on where you live and
how much construction is going on there. I always read that you should "ask the
inspector". In most places the answer you get is "I am an inspector, not an
instructor". Maybe if your wife is wearing "Daisy Dukes" and a wet T shirt she
can get a conversation started but usually the inspector is too damned busy to
say more than yes or no. I had 5 inspections on my pool, I was there every day,
I actually saw the inspector twice. The other times I think he didn't even walk
around back.

BTW don't be shocked when you see how much permits cost. A shed permit is $145
in my county and $40 more if you want a light in it. If you are just setting a
prebuilt shed it is "only" $100.

Primarily insurance. Let's say you install wiring in the house, and it is
not up to code, and there is no permit to show it was done properly. Then
your house burns down and the fire is traced to that wiring. You'll be hard
pressed to get an insurance company to pay for the damages. Another
potential pit fall is selling the home. It's possible the lack of a permit
could hold up the sale.

Not to mention safety, liability, etc. What if your kid's friend is
electrocuted in your home during a slumber party because you didn't use
a GFCI outlet as required, or it was wired improperly? Or your basement
is flooded because of incorrect plumbing from the bathroom above?

Bathrooms and kitchens are the places you definitely want to go
*strictly* by the book, and fulfill all the local code requirements.
For instance, did you know that a ceiling light fixture over a shower
area typically must be enclosed (no bulb exposed).

How much is a good night's sleep worth to you?

Michelle writes:

OK, I know they are legally necessary, but why? What is the benefit of
obtaining a permit when I renovate the interior of my home?

While the technical aspects are always cited, the big motivation is
protecting the building trades and limiting the housing supply, which puts
and entire lucrative industry under the control of local politicians. In
many areas the tax revenue is important. Zoning type controls are another
factor.

The only reason you have "codes" applied to buildings and not automobiles
or food or any number of things, is merely the fact that the buildings are
fixed to a location, making them vulnerable to this.

Michelle wrote:

OK, I know they are legally necessary, but why? What is the benefit of
obtaining a permit when I renovate the interior of my home? We're expanding
a bathroom.

Most of the other answers in this thread touch on the truth. You
cannot get a permit if the plans are sub par, and many times home
made plans must be submitted to an engineer or architect for
approval before the permit is issued. So permits will rule out some
bad construction.

The city or county bases its property taxes on property valuation
and the permit helps to insure that the additional value of your
improvements are duly noted.

--
Robert Allison
Rimshot, Inc.
Georgetown, TX

The city or county bases its property taxes on property valuation
and the permit helps to insure that the additional value of your
improvements are duly note

I have done a lot of unpermitted improvements to my property, I hope the permit
police aren't watching this NG.
One thing was certain, the tax assessor found them pretty quick and I did pay
my taxes on them. He has better drawings of my house than I do. The last time
when I did get a permit I used the tax assessor's drawings for the starting
point of my plans and I used his plot plan. The last plans of my house on file
are the current configuration
I guess that means I am legal now ;-)

"Buck Turgidson" wrote in message
...


Not to mention safety, liability, etc. What if your kid's friend is
electrocuted in your home during a slumber party because you didn't use a
GFCI outlet as required, or it was wired improperly? Or your basement is
flooded because of incorrect plumbing from the bathroom above?

Bathrooms and kitchens are the places you definitely want to go *strictly*
by the book, and fulfill all the local code requirements.

But you can follow the codes and not get a permit. Or you can get a permit
and have shoddy work because the inspector never came around.

You can tell all the stories you want, but not have the same impact as my
personal experience. In my last house, I remodeled the kitchen, installed
100A service (there was electrical inspection of the panel by the electric
company), replaced some of the plumbing, installed fences, replaced windows,
made holes in the wall for airconditioning, put on a new roof, removed
garage and changed it to a basement room, and probably a few things I
forgot.

Never had a permit. Never had an inspection. Never had a question from my
insurance company. Never had a question when I sold the house. Never had a
neighbor squeal as they all did the same things over time.

In my present house I got a permit for a new roof. I paid $25, but never saw
an inspector. All I have is a receipt.

For outside work, I'd get the permit just in case a sleazy neighbor rats you
out. Inside, none of anyone's business what you do, IMO. Most codes are
for legitimate reasons and should be followed for your safety.

Michelle wrote:
OK, I know they are legally necessary, but why? What is the benefit of
obtaining a permit when I renovate the interior of my home? We're
expanding
a bathroom.

The reasons are easy

- It's the law
- Insurance
- Liability
- Possible repercussions if found out later (they can make you take them
out)
- Lack of input. Yes in many areas the building inspectors try to help
you do the job right, by pointing out things you might not be aware of.

How well the system works does depend on the local authorities. Some
work well and others not so well.

--
Joseph E. Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math

Michelle wrote:
OK, I know they are legally necessary, but why? What is the benefit of
obtaining a permit when I renovate the interior of my home? We're expanding
a bathroom.



Permits, I think, are intended to maintain property up to a standard,
and to provide a record of what is built and/or changed. You know what
you do to a house, but if you have your drunk brother-in-law rewire it,
sell it, and the buyer has no idea they are in danger. Some of the
DIYers I know aren't fit to take out my trash - I've seen some really
horrid work done. Some people are so clueless they will remove a
structural wall or put in substandard wiring, sell a home and leave
their unknown mess for someone else. Of course, "little" rules are
meant to be broken, and a lot of people think the law is for everone else.

In our town, a homeowner in a single family dwelling can do work that
normally requires a license, with the restriction it won't be rented for
the next year. Gives the homeowner freedom to do his own work, and be
his own victim. )

For outside work, I'd get the permit just in case a sleazy neighbor rats you
out. Inside, none of anyone's business what you do, IMO. Most codes are
for legitimate reasons and should be followed for your safety.

A bunch of questions hidden he

*1: What is the theoretical purpose of producing a building/electrical code?
*2: Why should you follow it?
*3: What is the theoretical justification for requiring a building permit?
*4: Why should you get one?

Since OP asked:
"I know they are legally necessary, but why? What is the benefit of
obtaining a permit when I renovate the interior of my home?"
I assume that he means either 3 or 4,

The answer to 4 is easy:
The local government will be unreasonably punitive if it finds out that
you have failed to comply with it's regulations.

The answers to 3 include the desire to compel you to meet code,
and the desire to tax you, both FOR the right to make changes to
your dwelling, and ON the improvements. Other justifications
spring up in multitudes as people try to explain why they're doing
something that they never really thought much about.

See, I always thought that there would be a problem with insurance
pay-out if there was not a permit taken out, but I called my insurance
company and they said that this was not true. The policy would pay
out even if the homeowner completed work without permit.

Now.....I don't have that in writing from them either.........

Our code (Ontario, Canada) is restrictive enough that you are supposed
to get a permit to change an old fixture or switch for a new one. Now
having seen what can happen in DIY installations, I guess I can
understand -- but for anyone who knows what they're doing
electrically, it seems a bit overboard.

Mr Fixit eh

wrote in message


To accurately evaluate the property for tax purposes!

Not the only reason. My step-father was a contractor in a big city. He did
mostly house renovations and kitchens. The permit not only ensured the city
got its taxes, the inspector usually would pick up the plain envelop left
out for him, just like the cookies and milk for Santa.

The city/county is the one who wants to make sure that they are
aware of improvements. I will leave it up to you as to why they
want to know this.

They just want to be paid for your improvements. It is a tax.

If it was really a service you would be involved with plan review and the
inspector would talk to you. In reality, plan review is a joke and the
inspector may not even show up. If you do get an inspection, don't expect the
guy to be there more than a minute or two. He may have 40 to do that day,
spread across a 50 mile wide county.

Michelle wrote:
OK, I know they are legally necessary, but why? What is the benefit of
obtaining a permit when I renovate the interior of my home? We're
expanding a bathroom.

Permits are a real money-maker for some cities. Keeps everybody's taxes
down.

Permits are a real money-maker for some cities. Keeps everybody's taxes
down.

Actually they barely fund the building department. That is why inspectors are
spread so thin.
Of course the bureaucracy of the building department is a black hole that would
suck up any surplus if it did exist.
Unfortunately Harry Homeowner has to jump through the same hoops to build a dog
house as a developer does to build a condo.

The real answer might be to privatize the whole process of homeowner permitting
and inspection. Let the insurance company administer it. They are the ones with
skin in the game.

On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 09:57:37 -0400, "Michelle"
wrote:

OK, I know they are legally necessary, but why? What is the benefit of
obtaining a permit when I renovate the interior of my home? We're expanding
a bathroom.



Your local government looks in various ways to make a buck?
Seriously, without a permit you could be in trouble when you sell the
house and it is out of code. Or, there could be safety concerns.

On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 22:04:18 GMT, Phisherman wrote:

On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 09:57:37 -0400, "Michelle"
wrote:

OK, I know they are legally necessary, but why? What is the benefit of
obtaining a permit when I renovate the interior of my home? We're expanding
a bathroom.



Your local government looks in various ways to make a buck?
Seriously, without a permit you could be in trouble when you sell the
house and it is out of code. Or, there could be safety concerns.
if you did electrical and there is a fire, you may be out-of-luck.
for plumbing, i wouldn't worry.
....thehick

Phisherman wrote:

On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 09:57:37 -0400, "Michelle"
wrote:



OK, I know they are legally necessary, but why? What is the benefit of
obtaining a permit when I renovate the interior of my home? We're expanding
a bathroom.





Your local government looks in various ways to make a buck?
Seriously, without a permit you could be in trouble when you sell the
house and it is out of code. Or, there could be safety concerns.

Without permits for changes you make to your dwelling, if you sell, the
new owners wll not be able to get a CO (certificate of occupancy) until
changes that have been made to the dwelling since the last CO are
inspected and the proper permits are obtained. This may require that any
obstructions to inspection, such as walls, be removed to inspect the
changes. Guess who pays for it?
Like the motor oil commercial says, "You can pay me now (for the right
oil) , or you can pay me later (for a new engine)"

On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 18:37:00 -0400, willshak
scribbled this interesting note:

Phisherman wrote:

On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 09:57:37 -0400, "Michelle"
wrote:



OK, I know they are legally necessary, but why? What is the benefit of
obtaining a permit when I renovate the interior of my home? We're expanding
a bathroom.





Your local government looks in various ways to make a buck?
Seriously, without a permit you could be in trouble when you sell the
house and it is out of code. Or, there could be safety concerns.

Without permits for changes you make to your dwelling, if you sell, the
new owners wll not be able to get a CO (certificate of occupancy) until
changes that have been made to the dwelling since the last CO are
inspected and the proper permits are obtained. This may require that any
obstructions to inspection, such as walls, be removed to inspect the
changes. Guess who pays for it?
Like the motor oil commercial says, "You can pay me now (for the right
oil) , or you can pay me later (for a new engine)"

This is purely a matter of location. Perhaps this is the case where
you are, but to assume that is the case everywhere is just wrong. I've
never had any such situation with any house I've bought, ever, nor
have I ever heard of anyone else in Texas having a problem like this.

--
John Willis
(Remove the Primes before e-mailing me)

John Willis wrote:

On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 18:37:00 -0400, willshak
scribbled this interesting note:



Phisherman wrote:



On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 09:57:37 -0400, "Michelle"
wrote:





OK, I know they are legally necessary, but why? What is the benefit of
obtaining a permit when I renovate the interior of my home? We're expanding
a bathroom.





Your local government looks in various ways to make a buck?
Seriously, without a permit you could be in trouble when you sell the
house and it is out of code. Or, there could be safety concerns.



Without permits for changes you make to your dwelling, if you sell, the
new owners wll not be able to get a CO (certificate of occupancy) until
changes that have been made to the dwelling since the last CO are
inspected and the proper permits are obtained. This may require that any
obstructions to inspection, such as walls, be removed to inspect the
changes. Guess who pays for it?
Like the motor oil commercial says, "You can pay me now (for the right
oil) , or you can pay me later (for a new engine)"



This is purely a matter of location. Perhaps this is the case where
you are, but to assume that is the case everywhere is just wrong. I've
never had any such situation with any house I've bought, ever, nor
have I ever heard of anyone else in Texas having a problem like this.

Oh, yeah! I forgot about Texas.

"willshak" wrote in message

Without permits for changes you make to your dwelling, if you sell, the
new owners wll not be able to get a CO (certificate of occupancy) until
changes that have been made to the dwelling since the last CO are
inspected and the proper permits are obtained. This may require that any
obstructions to inspection, such as walls, be removed to inspect the
changes. Guess who pays for it?


I've only lived in a few houses in a couple of states. I never needed a new
CO, never needed any inspection. It may be in some areas, but I've never
encountered it in a used home. In my 59 years in living in private
dwellings, I've never had a CO or been asked about one.

I know a CO must be issued on a new house.
Ed

In article ,
says...

Your local government looks in various ways to make a buck?
Seriously, without a permit you could be in trouble when you sell the
house and it is out of code. Or, there could be safety concerns.

Without permits for changes you make to your dwelling, if you sell, the
new owners wll not be able to get a CO (certificate of occupancy) until
changes that have been made to the dwelling since the last CO are
inspected and the proper permits are obtained. This may require that any
obstructions to inspection, such as walls, be removed to inspect the
changes. Guess who pays for it?
Like the motor oil commercial says, "You can pay me now (for the right
oil) , or you can pay me later (for a new engine)"


How would anyone know when the changes were made to deny a CO?? I'm not
sure where you live, but here in Maryland, if I sell the house, there's
no CO requirement. No inspection needed at all, though most buyers get
them for peace of mind to know what they are getting into. In the hot
sellers' market many homes in fine condition are nonetheless sold "as
is" just to simplify things.

Marc

Dan Hartung writes:

Yeah, that's the reason nobody ever invented the term "street legal".

Which has nothing to do with permits.

wrote:

On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 03:31:30 GMT, "George E. Cawthon"
wrote:


And I want to ensure that the improvement is noted because......? so
my taxes will go up. Do you suppose that it is really the tax
assessor that wants to ensure that the improvements are noted.

When we lived in NJ the code official in the town our town
'surrounded' (like in the hole of a doughnut) spent most of his time
hanging out in local hardware, lumber, and DIY business looking for
residents buying materials they would probably use to make home
improvements - the rest of the time he spent walking through the town
"eye balling" homes for any visible signs of improvements. We had
friends who moved into a colonial style house with an unfinished
attic, but it had dormers in the roof - they put curtains on the
windows and a table with a lamp on it in front of each window. Within
a week there was a knock on the door and the code official was there
asking about their failure to obtain a permit to finish the unfinished
attic!

Good Grief!

MAG wrote in message iganews.com...
In article ,
says...

Your local government looks in various ways to make a buck?
Seriously, without a permit you could be in trouble when you sell the
house and it is out of code. Or, there could be safety concerns.

Without permits for changes you make to your dwelling, if you sell, the
new owners wll not be able to get a CO (certificate of occupancy) until
changes that have been made to the dwelling since the last CO are
inspected and the proper permits are obtained. This may require that any
obstructions to inspection, such as walls, be removed to inspect the
changes. Guess who pays for it?
Like the motor oil commercial says, "You can pay me now (for the right
oil) , or you can pay me later (for a new engine)"


How would anyone know when the changes were made to deny a CO?? I'm not
sure where you live, but here in Maryland, if I sell the house, there's
no CO requirement. No inspection needed at all, though most buyers get
them for peace of mind to know what they are getting into. In the hot
sellers' market many homes in fine condition are nonetheless sold "as
is" just to simplify things.

Marc


The type of change that may be discovered during a CO inspection is a
major one, like finishing off a basement, or turning attic space into
a bedroom. And if they do, then you could be required to tear it out,
at least to the point of being able to be inspected. Locally, I know
of a guy that got caught after he put in a deck without permits.

"Chet Hayes" wrote in message

The type of change that may be discovered during a CO inspection is a
major one, like finishing off a basement, or turning attic space into
a bedroom. And if they do, then you could be required to tear it out,
at least to the point of being able to be inspected. Locally, I know
of a guy that got caught after he put in a deck without permits.

Putting on a deck is different than finishing off the attic. The deck is
outside and if a neighbor does not like you, they may turn you in.

IMO, no one has the right to come into your house because they suspect you
are making improvements. Perhaps some states have different laws, but I've
never heard of a new inspection for a CO when a house is sold. What state or
local government requires it?

Dumb question but if one wanted to buy some raw
land...and build a small cabin (very small) to use as a
camp of sorts.... does one need any kind of permit for
that especially if the cabin will have no plumbing and
no electricity and no heating cooling source?

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 08:04:20 -0500, scribbled this
interesting note:

Dumb question but if one wanted to buy some raw
land...and build a small cabin (very small) to use as a
camp of sorts.... does one need any kind of permit for
that especially if the cabin will have no plumbing and
no electricity and no heating cooling source?

Probably depends on where said proposed cabin is. Some places probably
yes, others probably no.

--
John Willis
(Remove the Primes before e-mailing me)

wrote in message
...
Dumb question but if one wanted to buy some raw
land...and build a small cabin (very small) to use as a
camp of sorts.... does one need any kind of permit for
that especially if the cabin will have no plumbing and
no electricity and no heating cooling source?

Not dumb at all. It would depend on the location

In my town, you need 2 acres to build anything. A permit is required at 200
square feet, even if it is a storage shed. I'm sure it would vary in other
locations due to zoning laws.

You may get away building a shed, but could run into problems if you tried
to inhabit it as it would not meet codes for a house.

A friend of mine built a house a few years ago. Of course he had to get a
CO before moving in, but he needed space to put his belongings as his old
house was old and they were living with his parents He was allowed to move
in boxes of stuff, some furniture, but not beds or anything that would be
deemed as having someone live there.

Ed

You may get away building a shed, but could run into problems if you tried
to inhabit it as it would not meet codes for a house.

What if you only wanted to live the temporarily each
year?

Say 6 weeks in Jan-Feb?

wrote:

You may get away building a shed, but could run into problems if you tried
to inhabit it as it would not meet codes for a house.

What if you only wanted to live the temporarily each
year?

Say 6 weeks in Jan-Feb?

Like was said before, it depends on where you are. There are
parts of america that still think this is a free country, and you
can build anything you damn well want, as long as you stay
away from wetlands. And there are other parts of the country
where you're not allowed to replace an outlet or park an RV.

wrote in message
...
Dumb question but if one wanted to buy some raw
land...and build a small cabin (very small) to use as a
camp of sorts.... does one need any kind of permit for
that especially if the cabin will have no plumbing and
no electricity and no heating cooling source?

do you want it insured?

Dumb question but if one wanted to buy some raw
land...and build a small cabin

do you want it insured?


This gets back to my idea. Get the damned government out of the "owner/builder"
permit business altogether. Let the insurance company administer it with
private inspectors.
They already do this with building loan "draw" inspections so the
infrastructure is in place now.

Dumb question but if one wanted to buy some raw
land...and build a small cabin (very small) to use as a
camp of sorts.... does one need any kind of permit for
that especially if the cabin will have no plumbing and
no electricity and no heating cooling source?

do you want it insured?

No

This would basically be a "cabin" back in the woods. No
lights, running water.

Just a wooden shelter only. Heck it might even be a
small wooden shed or Tuff Shed like you'd buy from Home
Depot. Big enough to sleep in and keep some gear

A place to "live: for a 4 week hunting trip

Does that info help?

do you want it insured?

No

This would basically be a "cabin" back in the woods

So who is going to rat you out if you do?
I say go for it.
Your biggest chance of getting in trouble is if you build it on the nest of
some endangered stink beetle or something.

Greg wrote:
Dumb question but if one wanted to buy some raw
land...and build a small cabin


do you want it insured?



This gets back to my idea. Get the damned government out of the "owner/builder"
permit business altogether. Let the insurance company administer it with
private inspectors.
They already do this with building loan "draw" inspections so the
infrastructure is in place now.


Who do you want to fine us for code violations - Allstate or State Farm?
Are you in favor of tarpaper shacks? They meet the community standard
in some places.

Who do you want to fine us for code violations - Allstate or State Farm?


You don't get "fined" for permitted code violations, you just get a failure
card that has to be cleared before you get a certificate of compliance.
If the insurance company was involved you would fix the violation before youir
insurance would kick in. Folks say that is true now, where is the change?

Are you in favor of tarpaper shacks? They meet the community standard
in some places.

If that is the standard, who am I to dissagree?
Who are YOU?
It still gets back to who is hurt and who is liable?
I am talking about OWNER BUILDER, not homes for sale or work for hire.
The government has made the permit process so complicated and expensive that
MOST people will avoid it if they can, hence this thread.
There should be a simpler way for a homeowner to get a real inspection of their
work, perhaps even some guidance. You sure don't get either from most building
departments. You never will when they are doing an inspection every 12 minutes,
including travel time.

On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 09:57:37 -0400, "Michelle"
wrote:

OK, I know they are legally necessary, but why? What is the benefit of
obtaining a permit when I renovate the interior of my home? We're expanding
a bathroom.

Permits have two functions. The first is to notify the local
authorities that you are performing the work so they can verify that
the work meets standards adopted by the jurisdiction you're in. The
second is so that authorities can verify that what you intend to do is
allowed within the jurisdiction.

For example, expanding a bathroom may require that you meet certain
plumbing and electrical codes. In addition, your jurisdiction may
have restirctions on what you can do in your bathroom remodel. For
instance, if you move a window it may hve to be a certain size or
style in your area.

The drawback of not obtaining a permit is the possibility your local
authority will find out, in which case there are penalties and
remedies you can be required to pay or meet.

A third factor permitting in some cases is the noyification to local
taxing authorities of a potential increae in the taxable value of your
property due to the renovation.

Jeff

On 15 Sep 2004 20:27:19 GMT, (Greg) wrote:

Permits are a real money-maker for some cities. Keeps everybody's taxes
down.

Actually they barely fund the building department. That is why inspectors are
spread so thin.

That depends greatly on the location, as well as the quantitiy of
permits issued. In our area for example, about 60% of the properties
receive permits in a year, and permit revenue generates significant
reserves.

Of course the bureaucracy of the building department is a black hole that would
suck up any surplus if it did exist.

In most areas permit fee income must be spent in the process of
managing the permitting and inspection process. Which means a surplus
in building department revenues can't be used to buy a new fire truck
or hire more trash collectors.

Unfortunately Harry Homeowner has to jump through the same hoops to build a dog
house as a developer does to build a condo.

Depends on the jurisdiction, and it's quite doubtful a dog house would
require a permit in most areas.

The real answer might be to privatize the whole process of homeowner permitting
and inspection. Let the insurance company administer it. They are the ones with
skin in the game.

Not really. Nor are they the ones charged with creating and
administering the codes. Permitting is an area that really can't be
privatized.

Jeff