Hi

I bought a new house from one of these bulk builders. THe house is a
two story house with two separate A/C units. I have been having some
trouble in the summer here in Florida with the unit upstairs. While
it cools adequetely, it seems to stay on all the time. Ie it does not
cycle on or off like a normal A/C when it is set at any temperature
below 77 degrees. The fact that it stays on continuously concerns me
as I suspect that this will ultimately affect its useful life.

In either case after bringing out the A/C company three times they
think it is quite normal and ok considering it is the summer and we
are in Florida.

Not being satisfied, I went down the street and noted that the A/C
units that were used in an exact house like mine from the same builder
were a bit bigger and more efficient. Now the house was more recently
built so I think that may explain why they have more efficient units
especially with the EPA continuously increasing the standard. HOwever
I am curious to know why they installed a larger unit in the other
house.

My question is whether the differences in the unit are large enough to
warrant further inquiry or if the differences are trivial. I am just
a lay man so I dont know what is a significant btu/h difference. In
either case, I have a regular unit and a heat pump unit whereas the
house I am comparing had two heat pump units.

Here are the specs of the two units in my house:

Lennox - 10ACC-036
10.9 Seers
Cooling - 27,600 - 29,000 btu/h

Lennox - 10HPB30
10.5 Seers
HSPF IV 6.95 / V - 5.95
Cooling 28,000 - 29,800 btu/h
Heating 25,400 - 26,000 btu/h

The house I compared had two heat pump units that were the same size.
The spec of them were as follows:

Lennox - 12HPB30 (x 2)
12 Seers
HSPF IV 8.2 / V - 7.25
Cooling 28,400 - 31,000 btu/h
Heating 29,600 - 30,400 btu/h

So the question is whether the differences in cooling and heating
between my units and the units on the comparison house are significant
enough to explain the problem I am facing.

Any other comments appreciated.

Thanks

jasguild

jas kim wrote:
Hi

I bought a new house from one of these bulk builders. THe house is a
two story house with two separate A/C units. I have been having some
trouble in the summer here in Florida with the unit upstairs. While
it cools adequetely, it seems to stay on all the time. Ie it does not
cycle on or off like a normal A/C when it is set at any temperature
below 77 degrees. The fact that it stays on continuously concerns me
as I suspect that this will ultimately affect its useful life.

Being on all the time, as long as it does cool properly is not a defect
and it means you should be getting very good humidity control, which you
would not get if it were oversized.

It is difficult to say if it really is too large or small without an
on site look.

When you are looking at the "larger" unit down the street is it
physically larger? It is only 0.6% more capacity, which is nothing. The
physically larger part has more to do with the higher SEER than the
increased capacity.


--
Joseph E. Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math

"jas kim" wrote in message
While
it cools adequetely, it seems to stay on all the time. Ie it does not
cycle on or off like a normal A/C when it is set at any temperature
below 77 degrees. The fact that it stays on continuously concerns me
as I suspect that this will ultimately affect its useful life.


Not being satisfied, I went down the street and noted that the A/C
units that were used in an exact house like mine from the same builder
were a bit bigger and more efficient.

The slightly larger size should not make a huge difference. The upstairs
unit will run longer as there is a greater heat load from the sun on the
roof.

Running longer will also dehumidify better. Thee is such a thing as having
too large of a unit. To determine if yours is correct, you'd have to run a
Manual J check to determine the load. The builder may have the information
you need.

You can also ask for information an alt.hvac

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

"jas kim" wrote in message


While
it cools adequetely, it seems to stay on all the time. Ie it does not
cycle on or off like a normal A/C when it is set at any temperature
below 77 degrees. The fact that it stays on continuously concerns me
as I suspect that this will ultimately affect its useful life.


Not being satisfied, I went down the street and noted that the A/C
units that were used in an exact house like mine from the same builder
were a bit bigger and more efficient.



The slightly larger size should not make a huge difference. The upstairs
unit will run longer as there is a greater heat load from the sun on the
roof.

Running longer will also dehumidify better. Thee is such a thing as having
too large of a unit. To determine if yours is correct, you'd have to run a
Manual J check to determine the load. The builder may have the information
you need.

You can also ask for information an alt.hvac (Don't ask there!)



Have the manual J done, or reevaluate it if already done!

There could be several factors causing the system to not be transferring
its rated BTUH of heat to the outside!

A HREF="http://www.udarrell.com/my_pages2.htm#MY_AIR_CONDITIONING_PAGES"

If you do some homework studying you may find some things that are not
up to snuff!
Print and give to your A/C tech. He will probably say it is trash, ha.

First, check the temperature rise off the condenser, and let us know
what the readings are!

udarrell Darrell

"jas kim" wrote in message
om...
Hi

I bought a new house from one of these bulk builders. THe house is a
two story house with two separate A/C units. I have been having some
trouble in the summer here in Florida with the unit upstairs. While
it cools adequetely, it seems to stay on all the time. Ie it does not
cycle on or off like a normal A/C when it is set at any temperature
below 77 degrees. The fact that it stays on continuously concerns me
as I suspect that this will ultimately affect its useful life.

In either case after bringing out the A/C company three times they
think it is quite normal and ok considering it is the summer and we
are in Florida.

Not being satisfied, I went down the street and noted that the A/C
units that were used in an exact house like mine from the same builder
were a bit bigger and more efficient. Now the house was more recently
built so I think that may explain why they have more efficient units
especially with the EPA continuously increasing the standard. HOwever
I am curious to know why they installed a larger unit in the other
house.

My question is whether the differences in the unit are large enough to
warrant further inquiry or if the differences are trivial. I am just
a lay man so I dont know what is a significant btu/h difference. In
either case, I have a regular unit and a heat pump unit whereas the
house I am comparing had two heat pump units.

Here are the specs of the two units in my house:

Lennox - 10ACC-036
10.9 Seers
Cooling - 27,600 - 29,000 btu/h

Lennox - 10HPB30
10.5 Seers
HSPF IV 6.95 / V - 5.95
Cooling 28,000 - 29,800 btu/h
Heating 25,400 - 26,000 btu/h

The house I compared had two heat pump units that were the same size.
The spec of them were as follows:

Lennox - 12HPB30 (x 2)
12 Seers
HSPF IV 8.2 / V - 7.25
Cooling 28,400 - 31,000 btu/h
Heating 29,600 - 30,400 btu/h

So the question is whether the differences in cooling and heating
between my units and the units on the comparison house are significant
enough to explain the problem I am facing.

Any other comments appreciated.

Thanks

jasguild

Did the guy down the street pay for an upgraded unit? Even an 12 seer is
no bargain in today's market. There are units getting close to 20 out there
now.

As for the upstairs unit running all of the time. Yeah that is what is going
to happen when heat rises. In the winter the bottom will run longer. One of
the biggest reasons for me not to own an 2 story home. Unless you can shut
off the stair well your always going to have heat rising.

I worked on an 2 story home in Arizona once had a 5 ton down and 3 ton up.
The 3 ton never shut off during the summer months. The owner finally tired
of the $800 a month electric bills remodeled the 6 month old home with doors
at the top of the stairs so that the upstairs unit would cycle during the
summer. The upstairs unit quit working on the third year.

If you planning on staying in the home check the insulation in the attic. At
the beginning of the summer I added R-19 to my attic, (home built in 1999)
I am new to the home, previous owner had bills of $250 a month. My high so
far is $154


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.742 / Virus Database: 495 - Release Date: 8/19/2004

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote


You can also ask for information an alt.hvac

Or you could STFU and let those from that group respond here in the
appropriate forum rather than send this person to the wrong NG.

- Robert

American Mechanical wrote:

...you could STFU and let those from that group respond here in the
appropriate forum rather than send this person to the wrong NG.

There's nothing wrong with asking hvac questions in hvac groups.

Here's one for you:

Greg wrote:

I am looking for something a little more efficient than a clothes line.
Has anyone seen plans for some closed loop dryer that can cope with the
RH you see in the sub tropics?

How about a little greenhouse? Hang a piece of plastic over an EW line
between two poles, then string another line below it. Leave the ends of
the tent mostly open.

How open? If they are completely closed, the water vapor never escapes.
If they are completely open, the greenhouse adds nothing, compared to
a clothesline.

Nick

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
news:Pik%c.1128$9P4.905@trndny02...
|
| "jas kim" wrote in message
| While
| it cools adequetely, it seems to stay on all the time. Ie it does not
| cycle on or off like a normal A/C when it is set at any temperature
| below 77 degrees.
snip
|
| You can also ask for information an alt.hvac
|
Best put on your asbestos suit before posting any questions to alt.hvac
being just a mere mortal.

bill wrote:

American Mechanical wrote:

...you could STFU and let those from that group respond here in the
appropriate forum rather than send this person to the wrong NG.

There's nothing wrong with asking hvac questions in hvac groups.

Except in the minds of the arrogant lots who wrongly claim otherwise :-)

Here's one for you:

Greg wrote:

I am looking for something a little more efficient than a clothes line.
Has anyone seen plans for some closed loop dryer that can cope with the
RH you see in the sub tropics?

How about a little greenhouse? Hang a piece of plastic over an EW line
between two poles, then string another line below it. Leave the ends of
the tent mostly open.

How open? If they are completely closed, the water vapor never escapes.
If they are completely open, the greenhouse adds nothing, compared to
a clothesline.

Nick you are a ****tard. Sci.engr heat-vent-ac. Keep your moaners ****
in alt.HOME.repair where it belongs.

Who says? :-)

You are also invited to answer this hvac science and engineering question.
Be sure to compare the drying rate to an outdoor clothesline and include
the effects of condensation, if anticipated.

Nick

In article ,
wrote:

Who says? :-)
Nick

****tard.

wrote:

bill wrote:


American Mechanical wrote:


...you could STFU and let those from that group respond here in the
appropriate forum rather than send this person to the wrong NG.

There's nothing wrong with asking hvac questions in hvac groups.


Except in the minds of the arrogant lots who wrongly claim otherwise :-)


Here's one for you:

Greg wrote:


I am looking for something a little more efficient than a clothes line.
Has anyone seen plans for some closed loop dryer that can cope with the
RH you see in the sub tropics?

How about a little greenhouse? Hang a piece of plastic over an EW line
between two poles, then string another line below it. Leave the ends of
the tent mostly open.

How open? If they are completely closed, the water vapor never escapes.
If they are completely open, the greenhouse adds nothing, compared to
a clothesline.



Nick you are a ****tard. Sci.engr heat-vent-ac. Keep your moaners ****
in alt.HOME.repair where it belongs.


Who says? :-)

You are also invited to answer this hvac science and engineering question.
Be sure to compare the drying rate to an outdoor clothesline and include
the effects of condensation, if anticipated.

Nick

I bet you think Lawyers give free advice too..

"tgilb" wrote in message
link.net...

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
news:Pik%c.1128$9P4.905@trndny02...
|
| "jas kim" wrote in message
| While
| it cools adequetely, it seems to stay on all the time. Ie it does not
| cycle on or off like a normal A/C when it is set at any temperature
| below 77 degrees.
snip
|
| You can also ask for information an alt.hvac
|
Best put on your asbestos suit before posting any questions to alt.hvac
being just a mere mortal.



Why? Oh..thats right....alt.hvac is not for homeowners, and thats why many
of us post here too..

"American Mechanical" wrote in message
om...

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote


You can also ask for information an alt.hvac

Or you could STFU and let those from that group respond here in the
appropriate forum rather than send this person to the wrong NG.

- Robert

Why? I've met a few guys from that group and they are a rather sociable
bunch.

"Steve@carolinabreezehvac"
wrote:

Best put on your asbestos suit before posting any questions to alt.hvac
being just a mere mortal.


Why? Oh..thats right....alt.hvac is not for homeowners, and thats why many
of us post here too..

Now how would your average newsgroup reader know this?

Alt.hvac seems like the place to ask about hvac stuff, until they get
flamed for asking a reasonable question,



email to (remove the "notreal-")

"CR" wrote in message
Now how would your average newsgroup reader know this?

Alt.hvac seems like the place to ask about hvac stuff, until they get
flamed for asking a reasonable question,


If the hvac guys wanted to keep the group on a professional level, they
should call the newsgroup alt.hvac.professional Instead, a few of the
members take delight in flaming anyone from outside that asks a question,
even it if is hvac related. Unless the group is moderated, I don't see
how they can prevent others reading/posting to the group.

Greg wrote:

I am looking for something a little more efficient than a clothes line.
Has anyone seen plans for some closed loop dryer that can cope with the
RH you see in the sub tropics?

How about a little greenhouse? Hang a piece of plastic over an EW line
between two poles, then string another line below it. Leave the ends of
the tent mostly open.

How open? If they are completely closed, the water vapor never escapes.
If they are completely open, the greenhouse adds nothing, compared to
a clothesline.

Don Ocean and and PJM are also invited to answer this hvac science and
engineering question. Please compare the drying rate to an outdoor
clothesline and include the effects of condensation, if anticipated.

For the sake of definiteness, if Greg wants to remove 12 pounds of water
from 12 pounds of clothes with 400 ft^2 of surface (both sides) in minimal
time in full sun in August in Key Largo, when it's 84 F and w = 0.0185,
using a 16'x16' R1 greenhouse with 90% solar transmission, how many cfm
of outdoor air should flow through the greenhouse?

Nick

In article ,
wrote:

Don Ocean and and PJM are also invited to answer this hvac science and
engineering question. Please compare the drying rate to an outdoor
clothesline and include the effects of condensation, if anticipated.

For the sake of definiteness, if Greg wants to remove 12 pounds of water
from 12 pounds of clothes with 400 ft^2 of surface (both sides) in minimal
time in full sun in August in Key Largo, when it's 84 F and w = 0.0185,
using a 16'x16' R1 greenhouse with 90% solar transmission, how many cfm
of outdoor air should flow through the greenhouse?

Nick


This is for you to answer Nick.
Just what makes you think sci.engr.heat-vent-ac is interested or the
appropriate place to discuss clothes drying?

Your mother drop you on your head or are you so desparate for attention
you have to post ****?

bill wrote:

Don Ocean and and PJM are also invited to answer this hvac science and
engineering question. Please compare the drying rate to an outdoor
clothesline and include the effects of condensation, if anticipated.

For the sake of definiteness, if Greg wants to remove 12 pounds of water
from 12 pounds of clothes with 400 ft^2 of surface (both sides) in minimal
time in full sun in August in Key Largo, when it's 84 F and w = 0.0185,
using a 16'x16' R1 greenhouse with 90% solar transmission, how many cfm
of outdoor air should flow through the greenhouse?

Just what makes you think sci.engr.heat-vent-ac is interested or the
appropriate place to discuss clothes drying?

It's a matter of basic HVAC science and engineering. Chapter 28 of the
ASHRAE Applications handbook is all about drying, drying times, and so on.
The SCI.ENGR.heat-vent-ac group should eagerly welcome such basic questions.

What are your answers?

Nick

In article ,
wrote:

bill wrote:

Don Ocean and and PJM are also invited to answer this hvac science and
engineering question. Please compare the drying rate to an outdoor
clothesline and include the effects of condensation, if anticipated.

For the sake of definiteness, if Greg wants to remove 12 pounds of water
from 12 pounds of clothes with 400 ft^2 of surface (both sides) in minimal
time in full sun in August in Key Largo, when it's 84 F and w = 0.0185,
using a 16'x16' R1 greenhouse with 90% solar transmission, how many cfm
of outdoor air should flow through the greenhouse?

Just what makes you think sci.engr.heat-vent-ac is interested or the
appropriate place to discuss clothes drying?

It's a matter of basic HVAC science and engineering. Chapter 28 of the
ASHRAE Applications handbook is all about drying, drying times, and so on.
The SCI.ENGR.heat-vent-ac group should eagerly welcome such basic questions.

What are your answers?

Nick

Funny. There isn't a single mention of clothes or dryer in the 2000
version.
And as far as I can tell. Except for venting of a clothes dryer, there
is absolutely nothing on "drying, drying times, and so on" of clothes in
ASHRAE books anywhere.

Care to explain that?

On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 13:40:58 GMT, bill
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

Don Ocean and and PJM are also invited to answer this hvac science and
engineering question. Please compare the drying rate to an outdoor
clothesline and include the effects of condensation, if anticipated.

For the sake of definiteness, if Greg wants to remove 12 pounds of water
from 12 pounds of clothes with 400 ft^2 of surface (both sides) in minimal
time in full sun in August in Key Largo, when it's 84 F and w = 0.0185,
using a 16'x16' R1 greenhouse with 90% solar transmission, how many cfm
of outdoor air should flow through the greenhouse?

Nick

Get help , Nick. Psychiatric help. Maybe they can help you
do something useful with what remains of your life.




This is for you to answer Nick.
Just what makes you think sci.engr.heat-vent-ac is interested or the
appropriate place to discuss clothes drying?

Your mother drop you on your head or are you so desparate for attention
you have to post ****?


Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'

HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/

bill wrote:

Don Ocean and and PJM are also invited to answer this hvac science and
engineering question. Please compare the drying rate to an outdoor
clothesline and include the effects of condensation, if anticipated.

For the sake of definiteness, if Greg wants to remove 12 pounds of water
from 12 pounds of clothes with 400 ft^2 of surface (both sides) in minimal
time in full sun in August in Key Largo, when it's 84 F and w = 0.0185,
using a 16'x16' R1 greenhouse with 90% solar transmission, how many cfm
of outdoor air should flow through the greenhouse?

Just what makes you think sci.engr.heat-vent-ac is interested or the
appropriate place to discuss clothes drying?

Where ELSE would we discuss this question? :-)

It's a matter of basic HVAC science and engineering. Chapter 28 of the
ASHRAE Applications handbook is all about drying, drying times, and so on.
The SCI.ENGR.heat-vent-ac group should eagerly welcome such basic questions.

...There isn't a single mention of clothes or dryer in the 2000 version.
And as far as I can tell. Except for venting of a clothes dryer, there
is absolutely nothing on "drying, drying times, and so on" of clothes in
ASHRAE books anywhere.

My 1991 Applications book has drying hygrometry and drying time calcs
on pages 28.1 and 28.2...

Care to explain that?

Chapter 28 applies to all kinds of drying, as we can see from some of
the references, eg

Bell, J. R., and P. Grosberg. 1962. The movement of vapor and moisture
during the falling rate period of drying of thick textile materials.
Journal of the Textile Institute, Transactions 53(5):T250; ABIPC 33: 72, and

Nissan, AH. 1968. Drying of sheet materials. Textile Research Journal 38:447.

Now then, got any answers?

Nick

In article ,
wrote:

Just what makes you think sci.engr.heat-vent-ac is interested or the
appropriate place to discuss clothes drying?

Where ELSE would we discuss this question? :-)

Alt.clothes, alt.clothing for starters. They probably already know what
it takes. However as anal as you are you want to continue to reinvent
the wheel. I suspect since you didn't really understand it the first
time.



It's a matter of basic HVAC science and engineering. Chapter 28 of the
ASHRAE Applications handbook is all about drying, drying times, and so on.
The SCI.ENGR.heat-vent-ac group should eagerly welcome such basic
questions.

...There isn't a single mention of clothes or dryer in the 2000 version.
And as far as I can tell. Except for venting of a clothes dryer, there
is absolutely nothing on "drying, drying times, and so on" of clothes in
ASHRAE books anywhere.

My 1991 Applications book has drying hygrometry and drying time calcs
on pages 28.1 and 28.2...

Care to explain that?

Chapter 28 applies to all kinds of drying, as we can see from some of
the references, eg

Bell, J. R., and P. Grosberg. 1962. The movement of vapor and moisture
during the falling rate period of drying of thick textile materials.
Journal of the Textile Institute, Transactions 53(5):T250; ABIPC 33: 72, and

Nissan, AH. 1968. Drying of sheet materials. Textile Research Journal
38:447.

Now then, got any answers?

Nick

Clothes drying references? Where are they? Lying isn't nice. I concede
it is a liberal thing to do though.
Try using references within the last ten years ok? Technology changes.
We don't discuss Sulphur Dioxide here much either.

Ahh. Now I see what the problem is. Some fool who thinks this forum
belongs to him got his panties in a wad because a lay person (that
would be me) posted a lay question (that would be mine) on this site.

Let me explain. I am the original poster. I know nothing about A/c
except that mine was not blowing to my expectation. I came online
like I normally do and read a bit before I posted. Then I looked at
the newsgroup that have discussions about a/c. Then I posted on such
newsgroup asking some non technical questions but after some research.
(I can only imagine what the reaction would have been if I had not
done a bit of research before I asked my question).

I apologize for not being an expert and hurting anyone's feeling for
posting on "their" newsgroup. My intent was just to get some answers.

jasguild

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message om...
"CR" wrote in message
Now how would your average newsgroup reader know this?

Alt.hvac seems like the place to ask about hvac stuff, until they get
flamed for asking a reasonable question,


If the hvac guys wanted to keep the group on a professional level, they
should call the newsgroup alt.hvac.professional Instead, a few of the
members take delight in flaming anyone from outside that asks a question,
even it if is hvac related. Unless the group is moderated, I don't see
how they can prevent others reading/posting to the group.

wrote:

Don Ocean and and PJM are also invited to answer this hvac science and
engineering question. Please compare the drying rate to an outdoor
clothesline and include the effects of condensation, if anticipated.

For the sake of definiteness, if Greg wants to remove 12 pounds of water
from 12 pounds of clothes with 400 ft^2 of surface (both sides) in minimal
time in full sun in August in Key Largo, when it's 84 F and w = 0.0185,
using a 16'x16' R1 greenhouse with 90% solar transmission, how many cfm
of outdoor air should flow through the greenhouse?

Get help , Nick. Psychiatric help...

Do I play gatekeeper in unmoderated newsgroups? :-)

Nick

bill wrote:

Where ELSE would we discuss this question? :-)

Alt.clothes, alt.clothing for starters.

I disagree. What do they know of I. S. Bowen's 1926 equation?

It's a matter of basic HVAC science and engineering. Chapter 28 of the
ASHRAE Applications handbook is all about drying, drying times, and so on.
The SCI.ENGR.heat-vent-ac group should eagerly welcome such basic
questions.

...There isn't a single mention of clothes or dryer in the 2000 version.
And as far as I can tell. Except for venting of a clothes dryer, there
is absolutely nothing on "drying, drying times, and so on" of clothes in
ASHRAE books anywhere.

My 1991 Applications book has drying hygrometry and drying time calcs
on pages 28.1 and 28.2...

Care to explain that?

Chapter 28 applies to all kinds of drying, as we can see from some of
the references, eg

Bell, J. R., and P. Grosberg. 1962. The movement of vapor and moisture
during the falling rate period of drying of thick textile materials.
Journal of the Textile Institute, Transactions 53(5):T250; ABIPC 33: 72
and Nissan, AH. 1968. Drying of sheet materials. Textile Research Journal
38:447.

Clothes drying references? Where are they?

See above, at the end of Chapter 28. Perhaps it's time to stop your silly
gatekeeper games and answer the question, if you can. If not, your silence
will suffice.

If Greg wants to remove 12 pounds of water from 12 pounds of clothes with
400 ft^2 of surface (both sides) in minimal time in full sun in August in
Key Largo, when it's 84 F and w = 0.0185, using a 16'x16' R1 greenhouse with
90% solar transmission, how many cfm of outdoor air need flow through the
greenhouse? With no ventilation, the water vapor never escapes. Too much,
and the greenhouse adds nothing, compared to a clothesline.

Please compare the drying rate to an outdoor clothesline and include
the effects of condensation, if anticipated.

Nick

In article ,
wrote:

Clothes drying references? Where are they?

See above, at the end of Chapter 28. Perhaps it's time to stop your silly
gatekeeper games and answer the question, if you can. If not, your silence
will suffice.

If Greg wants to remove 12 pounds of water from 12 pounds of clothes with
400 ft^2 of surface (both sides) in minimal time in full sun in August in
Key Largo, when it's 84 F and w = 0.0185, using a 16'x16' R1 greenhouse with
90% solar transmission, how many cfm of outdoor air need flow through the
greenhouse? With no ventilation, the water vapor never escapes. Too much,
and the greenhouse adds nothing, compared to a clothesline.

Please compare the drying rate to an outdoor clothesline and include
the effects of condensation, if anticipated.

Nick

You are posting to alt.solar.thermal and alt.home.repair
Leave sci.engr.heat-vent-ac off your ****ing clothesline bull****.

Maybe you need remedial math. The fact that you even post this ****
anywhere shows you didn't get enough mud playing time when you were a
baby.

You want to pout now you can't get your way?

bill wrote:

...Perhaps it's time to stop your silly gatekeeper games and answer
the question, if you can. If not, your silence will suffice.

If Greg wants to remove 12 pounds of water from 12 pounds of clothes with
400 ft^2 of surface (both sides) in minimal time in full sun in August in
Key Largo, when it's 84 F and w = 0.0185, using a 16'x16' R1 greenhouse with
90% solar transmission, how many cfm of outdoor air need flow through the
greenhouse? With no ventilation, the water vapor never escapes. Too much,
and the greenhouse adds nothing, compared to a clothesline.

Please compare the drying rate to an outdoor clothesline and include
the effects of condensation, if anticipated.

You are posting to alt.solar.thermal and alt.home.repair
Leave sci.engr.heat-vent-ac off your ****ing clothesline bull****.

No thanks. It's entirely on-topic. What isn't on-topic is personal attacks,
laughable bullying wrongful attempts to control an ummoderated newsgroup,
and amusing credential wars in which guys with wrenches in hand and grease
on their faces attempt to construe real engineers as "unprofessional" :-)

Nick

Don Ocean wrote:

wrote:

bill wrote:

Where ELSE would we discuss this question? :-)

Alt.clothes, alt.clothing for starters.

I disagree. What do they know of I. S. Bowen's 1926 equation?

It's a matter of basic HVAC science and engineering. Chapter 28 of the
ASHRAE Applications book is all about drying, drying times, and so on.
The SCI.ENGR.heat-vent-ac group should eagerly welcome such basic
questions.

...There isn't a single mention of clothes or dryer in the 2000 version.
And as far as I can tell. Except for venting of a clothes dryer, there
is absolutely nothing on "drying, drying times, and so on" of clothes in
ASHRAE books anywhere.

My 1991 Applications book has drying hygrometry and drying time calcs
on pages 28.1 and 28.2...

Care to explain that?

Chapter 28 applies to all kinds of drying, as we can see from some of
the references, eg

Bell, J. R., and P. Grosberg. 1962. The movement of vapor and moisture
during the falling rate period of drying of thick textile materials.
Journal of the Textile Institute, Transactions 53(5):T250; ABIPC 33: 72
and Nissan, AH. 1968. Drying of sheet materials. Textile Research Journal
38:447.

Clothes drying references? Where are they?

See above, at the end of Chapter 28. Perhaps it's time to stop your silly
gatekeeper games and answer the question, if you can. If not, your silence
will suffice.

If Greg wants to remove 12 pounds of water from 12 pounds of clothes with
400 ft^2 of surface (both sides) in minimal time in full sun in August in
Key Largo, when it's 84 F and w = 0.0185, using a 16'x16' R1 greenhouse with
90% solar transmission, how many cfm of outdoor air need flow through the
greenhouse? With no ventilation, the water vapor never escapes. Too much,
and the greenhouse adds nothing, compared to a clothesline.

Please compare the drying rate to an outdoor clothesline and include
the effects of condensation, if anticipated.

I have a better question: How many liberal assholes like you blowing
smoke can dry those same clothes in one-half hour? ;-p

***Please note that I delete all but the pertinent news group!***

I'm happy to repost this to display your good will and erudition.

Nick

In article ,
(Nick Pine) wrote:


I'm happy to repost this to display your good will and erudition.

Nick

Nick you just ****ed up. Enjoy.

****in idiot

*PLONK*

"Nick Pine" wrote in message
...
Don Ocean wrote:

wrote:

bill wrote:

Where ELSE would we discuss this question? :-)

Alt.clothes, alt.clothing for starters.

I disagree. What do they know of I. S. Bowen's 1926 equation?

It's a matter of basic HVAC science and engineering. Chapter 28 of
the
ASHRAE Applications book is all about drying, drying times, and so
on.
The SCI.ENGR.heat-vent-ac group should eagerly welcome such basic
questions.

...There isn't a single mention of clothes or dryer in the 2000
version.
And as far as I can tell. Except for venting of a clothes dryer, there
is absolutely nothing on "drying, drying times, and so on" of clothes
in
ASHRAE books anywhere.

My 1991 Applications book has drying hygrometry and drying time calcs
on pages 28.1 and 28.2...

Care to explain that?

Chapter 28 applies to all kinds of drying, as we can see from some of
the references, eg

Bell, J. R., and P. Grosberg. 1962. The movement of vapor and moisture
during the falling rate period of drying of thick textile materials.
Journal of the Textile Institute, Transactions 53(5):T250; ABIPC 33: 72
and Nissan, AH. 1968. Drying of sheet materials. Textile Research
Journal
38:447.

Clothes drying references? Where are they?

See above, at the end of Chapter 28. Perhaps it's time to stop your
silly
gatekeeper games and answer the question, if you can. If not, your
silence
will suffice.

If Greg wants to remove 12 pounds of water from 12 pounds of clothes
with
400 ft^2 of surface (both sides) in minimal time in full sun in August
in
Key Largo, when it's 84 F and w = 0.0185, using a 16'x16' R1 greenhouse
with
90% solar transmission, how many cfm of outdoor air need flow through
the
greenhouse? With no ventilation, the water vapor never escapes. Too
much,
and the greenhouse adds nothing, compared to a clothesline.

Please compare the drying rate to an outdoor clothesline and include
the effects of condensation, if anticipated.

I have a better question: How many liberal assholes like you blowing
smoke can dry those same clothes in one-half hour? ;-p

***Please note that I delete all but the pertinent news group!***

I'm happy to repost this to display your good will and erudition.

Nick

wrote in message
...
wrote:

Don Ocean and and PJM are also invited to answer this hvac science and
engineering question. Please compare the drying rate to an outdoor
clothesline and include the effects of condensation, if anticipated.

For the sake of definiteness, if Greg wants to remove 12 pounds of
water
from 12 pounds of clothes with 400 ft^2 of surface (both sides) in
minimal
time in full sun in August in Key Largo, when it's 84 F and w = 0.0185,
using a 16'x16' R1 greenhouse with 90% solar transmission, how many cfm
of outdoor air should flow through the greenhouse?

Get help , Nick. Psychiatric help...

Do I play gatekeeper in unmoderated newsgroups? :-)


Well, you have criticised me for posting about waste-water heat-exchangers
in alt.solar.thermal. Is that what you mean by 'gatekeeper' in unmoderated
newsgroups? Or are you an official moderator of alt.solar.thermal??

daestrom

In article ,
"daestrom" wrote:
Get help , Nick. Psychiatric help...

Do I play gatekeeper in unmoderated newsgroups? :-)


Well, you have criticised me for posting about waste-water heat-exchangers
in alt.solar.thermal. Is that what you mean by 'gatekeeper' in unmoderated
newsgroups? Or are you an official moderator of alt.solar.thermal??

daestrom

Too funny.

daestrom wrote:

Well, you have criticised me for posting about waste-water heat-exchangers
in alt.solar.thermal...

I don't recall that. Sorry. Altho it's not exactly on-topic here, ie not a
"practical use of the sun's heat." It's an interesting subject, but unless
it's a part of a solar water heater or a solar-heated house, it seems to me
that there are more appropriate groups, eg MCFL or sci.engr.heat-vent-ac or
alt.energy.renewable. BTW, PE Drew Gillett and PE Howdy Reichmuth and I will
have an article on solar water heaters in the Nov/Dec issue of Solar Today,
which will appear in Border's and other fine bookstores on about October 15.

Is that what you mean by 'gatekeeper' in unmoderated newsgroups?

No. The few bullys in sci.engr.heat-vent-ac are quite different. I'd like
to see more science and engineering there. IMO, it's a disgusting place at
the moment. I don't see a need for profanity, twisting the truth, personal
insults (except for Toby :-), or threats.

Or are you an official moderator of alt.solar.thermal??

No. I created alt.solar.thermal, but there is no moderator. I try to keep
it on-topic, which isn't easy at times. For instance, the turbine-blade
position sensor discussion showed up in alt.solar.thermal for a long time.
Yes, sun causes wind, but IMO, it's a stretch to call that a practical use
of the sun's heat.

Nick

wrote in message
...
daestrom wrote:

Well, you have criticised me for posting about waste-water heat-exchangers
in alt.solar.thermal...

I don't recall that. Sorry. Altho it's not exactly on-topic here, ie not a
"practical use of the sun's heat." It's an interesting subject, but unless
it's a part of a solar water heater or a solar-heated house, it seems to
me
that there are more appropriate groups, eg MCFL or sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
or
alt.energy.renewable.

As I recall, it was a discussion of how to stretch a solar-heated domestic
hot-water supply. I was suggesting that using such a heat-exchanger would
reduce the size requirements of a hot-water heating panel. And you
questioned whether it was 'on-topic' for alt.solar.thermal.

Point is, what may seem off-topic to some isn't always cut-and-dried. And
yes, you have tried to 'gatekeep', so... "Those that live in glass
houses...."

daestrom

Can you remove home.repair from this disscussion? Thanks


"daestrom" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
daestrom wrote:

Well, you have criticised me for posting about waste-water
heat-exchangers
in alt.solar.thermal...

I don't recall that. Sorry. Altho it's not exactly on-topic here, ie not
a
"practical use of the sun's heat." It's an interesting subject, but
unless
it's a part of a solar water heater or a solar-heated house, it seems to
me
that there are more appropriate groups, eg MCFL or sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
or
alt.energy.renewable.

As I recall, it was a discussion of how to stretch a solar-heated domestic
hot-water supply. I was suggesting that using such a heat-exchanger would
reduce the size requirements of a hot-water heating panel. And you
questioned whether it was 'on-topic' for alt.solar.thermal.

Point is, what may seem off-topic to some isn't always cut-and-dried. And
yes, you have tried to 'gatekeep', so... "Those that live in glass
houses...."

daestrom

wrote in message ...

This thread is what happens when you ask the unclued for a simple
direct answer. Instead of giving one, or saying they dont know, they
will question and insult anything they can to avoid dealing with the
question, you included, especially you in fact. Stage 2 is that the
convo will move onto other matters in order to avoid the
unpleasantness, but still no addressing the real question. It is a
mistake to think you can get answers to basic questions: expertise is
about depth, when theres no expertise, theres no depth to the
knowledge.

My answer to the original q is I dont know how to calculate it. Its
also not something of great significance to me personally. I know I
did ask you before for a pointer or 2 on thermal calculations, but
never got any, so I hold you entirely responsible for my ignorance


Regards, NT

On 12 Sep 2004 15:42:57 -0700, (N. Thornton) wrote:

wrote in message ...

This thread is what happens when you ask the unclued for a simple
direct answer. Instead of giving one, or saying they dont know, they

No, it's when an asshole like Nick Pine starts in on another
troll about his bull**** fantasies, spewing out his random number
strings to 'prove' it.



Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'

HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/

On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 21:34:41 GMT, "daestrom"
wrote:

Point is, what may seem off-topic to some isn't always cut-and-dried. And
yes, you have tried to 'gatekeep', so... "Those that live in glass
houses...."

daestrom

--
-john
wide-open at throttle dot info
~~~~~~~~
The keeper at the gate is blind
so you'd better be prepared to pay
-Steve Earle
~~~~~~~~

Gee, Nicks "random number strings" always seem to work fine in the real
world when I wisely apply his advise. Sounds like envy to me.


wrote in message
...
On 12 Sep 2004 15:42:57 -0700, (N. Thornton) wrote:

wrote in message
...

This thread is what happens when you ask the unclued for a simple
direct answer. Instead of giving one, or saying they dont know, they

No, it's when an asshole like Nick Pine starts in on another
troll about his bull**** fantasies, spewing out his random number
strings to 'prove' it.



Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'

HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's
http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/