Hi all,

We are currently looking for an architect to help us design an addition to
our house. We are interested in 2 firms. Both are small, one is a purely
architectural firm, the other a design/build firm. The problem is that
estimates for the fees to design the addition are VERY different. I want to
know if I was missing something?

The architectural firm's estimate is about $3000 for what they estimate is
66 hours of services to design a 3 story ~500sq' addition (which we are
estimating will cost $80-100K to build). The design/build firm is charging
10% of construction costs for the design portion. With an estimated
$80,000-100,000 to build, their costs would be $8,000-$10,000. Up to 3x the
architecture firm's price. Of course we could be vastly overestimating the
cost of construction, so the cost of the design would be less.
Unfortunately, my experience is that one rarely OVER estimates the cost of
construction.

Am I missing something here? Is one vastly over or under charging? I
suppose we could get a 3rd quote to "break the tie"

We are in central Virginia.

TIA

Bart

Get more estimates for the job, don't settle for just two. Get references
similar to the work you want performed, contact the references and see how
they feel about the work done for them. Then you would have a better idea
on sizing up the original two bidders you were interested in.

"BRN" wrote in message
...
Hi all,

We are currently looking for an architect to help us design an addition to
our house. We are interested in 2 firms. Both are small, one is a purely
architectural firm, the other a design/build firm. The problem is that
estimates for the fees to design the addition are VERY different. I want
to
know if I was missing something?

The architectural firm's estimate is about $3000 for what they estimate is
66 hours of services to design a 3 story ~500sq' addition (which we are
estimating will cost $80-100K to build). The design/build firm is
charging
10% of construction costs for the design portion. With an estimated
$80,000-100,000 to build, their costs would be $8,000-$10,000. Up to 3x
the
architecture firm's price. Of course we could be vastly overestimating
the
cost of construction, so the cost of the design would be less.
Unfortunately, my experience is that one rarely OVER estimates the cost of
construction.

Am I missing something here? Is one vastly over or under charging? I
suppose we could get a 3rd quote to "break the tie"

We are in central Virginia.

TIA

Bart

BRN wrote:
The architectural firm's estimate is about $3000 for what they
estimate is 66 hours of services to design a 3 story ~500sq'
addition (which we are estimating will cost $80-100K to build).
The design/build firm is charging 10% of construction costs for the
design portion. With an estimated $80,000-100,000 to build, their
costs would be $8,000-$10,000. Up to 3x the architecture firm's
price. Of course we could be vastly overestimating the cost of
construction, so the cost of the design would be less.
Unfortunately, my experience is that one rarely OVER estimates the
cost of construction.

Am I missing something here?

Yes. You are missing the fact that there is no Federal Office of Building
Design Fee Control...people can charge whatever they wish.

As far as cost to build, why not ask both what basic per foot cost runs in
your area? Consider that a 2-car garage is roughly the same size...would
you expect a garage to run 80-100K? I wouldn't either. Yes, you have to
allow more for interior partitions and drywall (plumbing too maybe) but
those aren't all that much for that size area.

--
dadiOH
_____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.0...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
____________________________

You're focusing on the wrong target, or perhaps, not focusing at all.
I'm not necessarily a big fan of design/build, naturally.
D/B can distort costs.
The architectural firms fee seems pretty low.
Anyway, this is what I will suggest.
Take the bull by the horns, STEER the project in the direction you would
like it to go.
Hire a design firm, with loads of experience in 3 story additions, to do
*Preliminary Design* concept drawings.
As a minimum this should include 1/4" scale drawings of all 3 floors and
front & rear elevations and a site plan, about 5-6 24"x36" drawings total.
Then you can take those drawings to several contractors *experienced* in
this kind of construction for *ball park* figures to see if the project is
inline with your budget.
Here's the long and the short of it, you must find out how much building you
can afford and it is best to do this while NOT laying out vast sums of green
for a project that may never come to fruition. If the addition costs more
than you can afford, why pay long money to find out, and have a complete set
of plans to irritate you in perpetuity?
You described the addition as being 500 s.f., so I will assume that means
500 s.f. per floor, times 3 floors, for a total of 1500 s.f.
I would charge about 10-20 cents per s.f., depending on complexity, for the
preliminary design package.
That would be roughly $1.5k - $3k for the preliminary design.
The preliminary design is the toughest task, for me, because that is where I
do all of the structural analysis as well as address the functionality and
aesthetic aspects.

"BRN" wrote in message
...
Hi all,

We are currently looking for an architect to help us design an addition to
our house. We are interested in 2 firms. Both are small, one is a purely
architectural firm, the other a design/build firm. The problem is that
estimates for the fees to design the addition are VERY different. I want
to
know if I was missing something?

The architectural firm's estimate is about $3000 for what they estimate is
66 hours of services to design a 3 story ~500sq' addition (which we are
estimating will cost $80-100K to build). The design/build firm is
charging
10% of construction costs for the design portion. With an estimated
$80,000-100,000 to build, their costs would be $8,000-$10,000. Up to 3x
the
architecture firm's price. Of course we could be vastly overestimating
the
cost of construction, so the cost of the design would be less.
Unfortunately, my experience is that one rarely OVER estimates the cost of
construction.

Am I missing something here? Is one vastly over or under charging? I
suppose we could get a 3rd quote to "break the tie"

We are in central Virginia.

TIA

Bart

i am VERY leery of anyone that wants a percentage of anything. and simply
put, the cost of the design has very little to do with the cost of the
build. i could design a very labor intensive addon, or specify higher cost
materials, but that doesnt mean its a better design or that it would
actually take more time to design it.

but to be honest; 100k for a 500 sq ft addon? if you think that sounds even
remotely reasonable you got money to burn and need not worry about the costs
anyway...

randy

"BRN" wrote in message
...
Hi all,

We are currently looking for an architect to help us design an addition to
our house. We are interested in 2 firms. Both are small, one is a purely
architectural firm, the other a design/build firm. The problem is that
estimates for the fees to design the addition are VERY different. I want
to
know if I was missing something?

The architectural firm's estimate is about $3000 for what they estimate is
66 hours of services to design a 3 story ~500sq' addition (which we are
estimating will cost $80-100K to build). The design/build firm is
charging
10% of construction costs for the design portion. With an estimated
$80,000-100,000 to build, their costs would be $8,000-$10,000. Up to 3x
the
architecture firm's price. Of course we could be vastly overestimating
the
cost of construction, so the cost of the design would be less.
Unfortunately, my experience is that one rarely OVER estimates the cost of
construction.

Am I missing something here? Is one vastly over or under charging? I
suppose we could get a 3rd quote to "break the tie"

We are in central Virginia.

TIA

Bart

The fees noted of $3000 seems low and they would likely lose money on it
or skimp on services. Typically, fees for this sort of work are between
7 and 10% of construction cost NIC permits and other fees. I would shop
further and get a complete understanding of services provided. and
liabilities included.

THe cost of 80 to $100K of a 500 sf addition seem about right for an
order of magnatude estimate. Costs could be higher or lower due to your
choices. Your mileage may vary.

BRN wrote:
Hi all,

We are currently looking for an architect to help us design an addition to
our house. We are interested in 2 firms. Both are small, one is a purely
architectural firm, the other a design/build firm. The problem is that
estimates for the fees to design the addition are VERY different. I want to
know if I was missing something?

The architectural firm's estimate is about $3000 for what they estimate is
66 hours of services to design a 3 story ~500sq' addition (which we are
estimating will cost $80-100K to build). The design/build firm is charging
10% of construction costs for the design portion. With an estimated
$80,000-100,000 to build, their costs would be $8,000-$10,000. Up to 3x the
architecture firm's price. Of course we could be vastly overestimating the
cost of construction, so the cost of the design would be less.
Unfortunately, my experience is that one rarely OVER estimates the cost of
construction.

Am I missing something here? Is one vastly over or under charging? I
suppose we could get a 3rd quote to "break the tie"

We are in central Virginia.

TIA

Bart

"BRN" wrote in message
...
Hi all,

We are currently looking for an architect to help us design an addition to
our house. We are interested in 2 firms. Both are small, one is a purely
architectural firm, the other a design/build firm. The problem is that
estimates for the fees to design the addition are VERY different. I want
to
know if I was missing something?

The architectural firm's estimate is about $3000 for what they estimate is
66 hours of services to design a 3 story ~500sq' addition (which we are
estimating will cost $80-100K to build). The design/build firm is
charging
10% of construction costs for the design portion. With an estimated
$80,000-100,000 to build, their costs would be $8,000-$10,000. Up to 3x
the
architecture firm's price. Of course we could be vastly overestimating
the
cost of construction, so the cost of the design would be less.
Unfortunately, my experience is that one rarely OVER estimates the cost of
construction.

Am I missing something here? Is one vastly over or under charging? I
suppose we could get a 3rd quote to "break the tie"

We are in central Virginia.

TIA

Bart

First thing that comes to mind is that you may be confusing the D/B firm's
price. When I worked for a D/B firm as a designer, we charged a fee that
included project management AND design. If the client asked, we'd give them
a breakdown of what percent was for what. Is their total fee 10% and that
included design? Or is it 10% for design and another 10% for contruction?
If it's the flat 10%, then the design fees are 1) Hidden in the
construction costs, or 2) not nearly as high as you think they are (or
both).

As for the architecture firm's fee...they're giving you their services for
$45/hour. There's no way I'd work that cheap. But that's me. Maybe they
need the work. Maybe they're a young firm. Maybe they think they can do it
30 hours, and have given themselves some slop. I have a friend who works in
a major city who has to do work for half of what I'd charge because of the
competition.

Having been "in" D/B, I'm not a big fan. I like the protection an
indpendent architect(/designer) offers, especially if the contract between
you and the builder is written correctly. But yours is a smallish addition
(is that 500 sq. ft. / floor? Or 500 sq. ft. total? 500 sq. ft. per floor
would put the costs at 3 times what you're estimating, YMMV).

Finally, if you're shopping fees...you're probably looking at it the wrong
way. You should be shopping service. Which firm is going to give you the
services you need. Then look at the fees. 7-15% is a reasonable range for
architecture fees. Some will work for less, other's more. Size of the
project also makes a difference. For me, a smaller project has a higher
percentage of fee because I still have a certain minumum of work to do
regardless of the size of the project.

HTH

P

"xrongor" wrote in message
...
i am VERY leery of anyone that wants a percentage of anything. and simply
put, the cost of the design has very little to do with the cost of the
build.

That's not really true. It CAN be true sometimes, but isn't always true.
I've done some very intricate, detailed work that cost much more to design
than the same "square foot" of a simple design.

I would agree that determining the actual fee based on the cost alone is an
unwise idea. I only give a ball park range when someone asks what a fee
might be. Then I offer them the option of a fixed fee (which is determined
after a better understanding of the project is obtained), or straight
hourly.

i could design a very labor intensive addon, or specify higher cost
materials, but that doesnt mean its a better design or that it would
actually take more time to design it.

It all depends... for instance, if you spec. out standard plastic laminate
counter tops, the amount of "design" work is less. But what if you spec.
out a custom laminate top? Or a floating top with special supports to make
it appear as if it's floating?


but to be honest; 100k for a 500 sq ft addon? if you think that sounds
even
remotely reasonable you got money to burn and need not worry about the
costs
anyway...

It depends on the addition...a custom master bath suite could easily run
$100K... Also, if it's 500 sq. ft. / floor, then the addition is a 1,500
sq. ft., not 500.

P

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 09:08:52 -0400, "dadiOH" wrote:

As far as cost to build, why not ask both what basic per foot cost runs in
your area? Consider that a 2-car garage is roughly the same size...would
you expect a garage to run 80-100K? I wouldn't either. Yes, you have to
allow more for interior partitions and drywall (plumbing too maybe) but
those aren't all that much for that size area.

How many 3 story garages have you seen? Your comparison seems to fit the
subject well.

doubter wrote:
On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 09:08:52 -0400, "dadiOH" wrote:

As far as cost to build, why not ask both what basic per foot cost
runs in your area? Consider that a 2-car garage is roughly the
same size...would you expect a garage to run 80-100K? I wouldn't
either. Yes, you have to allow more for interior partitions and
drywall (plumbing too maybe) but those aren't all that much for
that size area.

How many 3 story garages have you seen? Your comparison seems to
fit the subject well.

That depends. OP said 500sq.ft. Doesn't make a whole lot of difference if
500 sq.ft. is in one story or three. If, OTOH, he meant three stories
*each* with 500 sq.ft. then it would be a BIG garage.

--
dadiOH
_____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.0...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
____________________________

"dadiOH" wrote
As far as cost to build, why not ask both what basic per foot cost runs in
your area?


There is no such animal as cost per _square_ foot when it comes to
renovation work. Each project is unique. Renovation is not a tract project.


Consider that a 2-car garage is roughly the same size...would
you expect a garage to run 80-100K? I wouldn't either. Yes, you have to
allow more for interior partitions and drywall (plumbing too maybe) but
those aren't all that much for that size area.

There is a substantial difference between a garage and living space. If
this is a 2 floor with a full basement being added, you can't even begin to
compare with standard footer work. I believe you're overlooking HVAC work,
maybe a complete new system in because the existing is not sufficient to
properly heat or cool. You also need supplies and returns for the system.
This could be a bathroom addition which adds substantial costs beyond a
couple of partion walls. How about an upgrade to the service panel, because
the original met only what was needed at the time. Maybe the main electric
feed needs moved, or the water main, sewer moved or modified. Tying into
existing is always more than building a free standing structure. You have
cutting existing for entry/exits, headers for your openings of the existing,
siding & roofing issues, all types of finishing issues besides the new.

80-100k would be the minimum to even think about a project should it entail
such upgrades or modifications, even for 500 sq.ft. Being in the business
I've seen much more $ than that poured into projects simply because people
like where they live.

"3D Peruna" wrote in message
...

"xrongor" wrote in message
...
i am VERY leery of anyone that wants a percentage of anything. and
simply
put, the cost of the design has very little to do with the cost of the
build.

That's not really true. It CAN be true sometimes, but isn't always true.
I've done some very intricate, detailed work that cost much more to design
than the same "square foot" of a simple design.

sure. you can even argue that a good design lowers the build cost hence if
you charge a percentage you actually make less for a good design. but you
dont pay computer programmers by the number of lines of code they write for
the same reason. it just doesnt correlate that well.


I would agree that determining the actual fee based on the cost alone is
an
unwise idea. I only give a ball park range when someone asks what a fee
might be. Then I offer them the option of a fixed fee (which is
determined
after a better understanding of the project is obtained), or straight
hourly.

this is reasonable.


i could design a very labor intensive addon, or specify higher cost
materials, but that doesnt mean its a better design or that it would
actually take more time to design it.

It all depends... for instance, if you spec. out standard plastic laminate
counter tops, the amount of "design" work is less. But what if you spec.
out a custom laminate top? Or a floating top with special supports to
make
it appear as if it's floating?

well thats basically the point. it all depends. thats why i dont like the
percentage thing.



but to be honest; 100k for a 500 sq ft addon? if you think that sounds
even
remotely reasonable you got money to burn and need not worry about the
costs
anyway...

It depends on the addition...a custom master bath suite could easily run
$100K... Also, if it's 500 sq. ft. / floor, then the addition is a 1,500
sq. ft., not 500.

sounds high for just an average addon. even for 1500 sq ft. i smell luxury
items like that fancy soap in the fancy new tub g

randy

The smart thing to do is
Step one: contract with an architectural & engineering firm to generate an
approved set of plans & specifications.
Step two: solicit bids from as many building contractors as you want using
those plans & specs.

with plan/spec, you call the shots and all the bidders are bidding on the same
work

with design/build, it's a crap shoot, and you have no real basis to compare
bids

"dadiOH" wrote in message
...
doubter wrote:
On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 09:08:52 -0400, "dadiOH" wrote:

As far as cost to build, why not ask both what basic per foot cost
runs in your area? Consider that a 2-car garage is roughly the
same size...would you expect a garage to run 80-100K? I wouldn't
either. Yes, you have to allow more for interior partitions and
drywall (plumbing too maybe) but those aren't all that much for
that size area.

How many 3 story garages have you seen? Your comparison seems to
fit the subject well.

That depends. OP said 500sq.ft. Doesn't make a whole lot of difference
if
500 sq.ft. is in one story or three. If, OTOH, he meant three stories
*each* with 500 sq.ft. then it would be a BIG garage.

The OP also didn't mention what the new spaces are going to be. If, for
instance, they are going to be 3 bedrooms that's a whole lot different (in
both design & construction costs) than a Kitchen, Media Room, Screen Porch,
and a Bathroom. The bedroom option maybe costs $100k to build, the second
option could easily cost three times that.

Michael (LS)

Firstly, you need to know what you want to build. Each individual component
has a price range from low quality cheap to high quality expensive. You need
to know where every item fits in this range or you may be paying too much
for junk or a great price for quality. I don't like percentages. Why pay 10%
if you choose a $1000.00 toilet, or settle for a $49.99 special to avoid
paying commission on it. Everything should be detailed, including the
pricing and how it is applied. Don't forget to ask about prices on changes.
This is where most in the industry make their money. Once construction
starts, you will see areas that can be improved, and you need to know how
much they will hit you with to make that change.


"BRN" wrote in message
...
Hi all,

We are currently looking for an architect to help us design an addition to
our house. We are interested in 2 firms. Both are small, one is a purely
architectural firm, the other a design/build firm. The problem is that
estimates for the fees to design the addition are VERY different. I want
to
know if I was missing something?

The architectural firm's estimate is about $3000 for what they estimate is
66 hours of services to design a 3 story ~500sq' addition (which we are
estimating will cost $80-100K to build). The design/build firm is
charging
10% of construction costs for the design portion. With an estimated
$80,000-100,000 to build, their costs would be $8,000-$10,000. Up to 3x
the
architecture firm's price. Of course we could be vastly overestimating
the
cost of construction, so the cost of the design would be less.
Unfortunately, my experience is that one rarely OVER estimates the cost of
construction.

Am I missing something here? Is one vastly over or under charging? I
suppose we could get a 3rd quote to "break the tie"

We are in central Virginia.

TIA

Bart

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 16:17:44 -0400, someone wrote:


That depends. OP said 500sq.ft. Doesn't make a whole lot of difference if
500 sq.ft. is in one story or three.

Wrong wrong wrong wrong. "Square Foot" costs are really the RESULT
not the determinate. Take the total costs and divide. Its just that
similar projects tend to have similar costs so there is such a thing
as an "average" s.f. cost FOR SIMILAR PROJECTS.

A 3-story, 500sf addn means each floor is quite small, thus maximizing
the cost per s.f. from things like perimeter area to floor area ratio,
etc. Generally, to build 500 s.f. over 3 stories is WAY morre
expensive than to do it as a one-story garage!!!

-v.