OK, carrying on from the previous on extending circuits; have pulled to
the new junction box location--wasn't bad; actually less trouble than I
had expected and had ample cable length on the shortest without
scrimping inside the junction box.

OK, then I had another bright idea -- the dining room is the one with
the four entrance/exit points but only three switches--while not going
to even attempt to get the fourth location, it seemed like a nice
amenity to add a second on the east entrance at the dining room wall
itself instead of all the way to the exterior door.

The power is fed to the 3-way switch that was at that location (exterior
door/wall) with three wire cable running whither I cannot discern
precisely. Opening the boxes, the 4-way is on N door, the other 3-way
on the W. I made the hope that the 3-way cable went next to the 4-way
so put the two travelers between the existing 3-way and a new 4-way and
connected the 3-way cable travelers to the other side of the 4-way...

Unfortunately, that apparently is not the actual path as the new 4-way
now acts as straight on-off: in one position all other locations work
as normal; in other position none work.

I've got some other support work to keep the construction crews moving
I've got to go do so haven't been able to scratch head over this --
anybody here got time to ponder this out and see if can deduce how must
be wired and if I can manage to make this work without having to tear
into interior walls?

If I can't make this work, I'll just live with the location either being
where it was, or, perhaps even better thought, can remove the dining
room control from the exterior door location entirely and reduce the
number there...that may be even better overall solution since there will
be control of the entryway at that same new location so won't have to
backtrack to turn it off on coming home as did which is why the DR
switch needed to be clear out on the exterior door...otherwise you
turned yourself back into a dark house or had to walk back the door to
turn that one off because it was only location for it.

--

On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 10:19:37 -0500, dpb wrote:

OK, carrying on from the previous on extending circuits; have pulled to
the new junction box location--wasn't bad; actually less trouble than I
had expected and had ample cable length on the shortest without
scrimping inside the junction box.

OK, then I had another bright idea -- the dining room is the one with
the four entrance/exit points but only three switches--while not going
to even attempt to get the fourth location, it seemed like a nice
amenity to add a second on the east entrance at the dining room wall
itself instead of all the way to the exterior door.

The power is fed to the 3-way switch that was at that location (exterior
door/wall) with three wire cable running whither I cannot discern
precisely. Opening the boxes, the 4-way is on N door, the other 3-way
on the W. I made the hope that the 3-way cable went next to the 4-way
so put the two travelers between the existing 3-way and a new 4-way and
connected the 3-way cable travelers to the other side of the 4-way...

Unfortunately, that apparently is not the actual path as the new 4-way
now acts as straight on-off: in one position all other locations work
as normal; in other position none work.

I've got some other support work to keep the construction crews moving
I've got to go do so haven't been able to scratch head over this --
anybody here got time to ponder this out and see if can deduce how must
be wired and if I can manage to make this work without having to tear
into interior walls?

If I can't make this work, I'll just live with the location either being
where it was, or, perhaps even better thought, can remove the dining
room control from the exterior door location entirely and reduce the
number there...that may be even better overall solution since there will
be control of the entryway at that same new location so won't have to
backtrack to turn it off on coming home as did which is why the DR
switch needed to be clear out on the exterior door...otherwise you
turned yourself back into a dark house or had to walk back the door to
turn that one off because it was only location for it.

If the travelers all go through the J box you can add as many 4 ways
as you like. Essentially they just reverse the travelers. (2 wires in
2 out).
Just be sure this is really a 4 way and not a DPST.
There are pictures on the web if you are not sure how it gets wired.

On Thursday, June 27, 2019 at 11:19:51 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
OK, carrying on from the previous on extending circuits; have pulled to
the new junction box location--wasn't bad; actually less trouble than I
had expected and had ample cable length on the shortest without
scrimping inside the junction box.

OK, then I had another bright idea -- the dining room is the one with
the four entrance/exit points but only three switches--while not going
to even attempt to get the fourth location, it seemed like a nice
amenity to add a second on the east entrance at the dining room wall
itself instead of all the way to the exterior door.

The power is fed to the 3-way switch that was at that location (exterior
door/wall) with three wire cable running whither I cannot discern
precisely. Opening the boxes, the 4-way is on N door, the other 3-way
on the W. I made the hope that the 3-way cable went next to the 4-way
so put the two travelers between the existing 3-way and a new 4-way and
connected the 3-way cable travelers to the other side of the 4-way...

Unfortunately, that apparently is not the actual path as the new 4-way
now acts as straight on-off: in one position all other locations work
as normal; in other position none work.

I've got some other support work to keep the construction crews moving
I've got to go do so haven't been able to scratch head over this --
anybody here got time to ponder this out and see if can deduce how must
be wired and if I can manage to make this work without having to tear
into interior walls?

If I can't make this work, I'll just live with the location either being
where it was, or, perhaps even better thought, can remove the dining
room control from the exterior door location entirely and reduce the
number there...that may be even better overall solution since there will
be control of the entryway at that same new location so won't have to
backtrack to turn it off on coming home as did which is why the DR
switch needed to be clear out on the exterior door...otherwise you
turned yourself back into a dark house or had to walk back the door to
turn that one off because it was only location for it.

--

I'd start by separating the wires at the location in question and
then buzzing them out one at a time to determine what runs from
one box to another, mark them.

On 6/27/2019 11:09 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 10:19:37 -0500, dpb wrote:

....

The power is fed to the 3-way switch that was at that location (exterior
door/wall) with three wire cable running whither I cannot discern
precisely. Opening the boxes, the 4-way is on N door, the other 3-way
on the W. I made the hope that the 3-way cable went next to the 4-way
so put the two travelers between the existing 3-way and a new 4-way and
connected the 3-way cable travelers to the other side of the 4-way...

Unfortunately, that apparently is not the actual path as the new 4-way
now acts as straight on-off: in one position all other locations work
as normal; in other position none work.

....


If the travelers all go through the J box you can add as many 4 ways
as you like. Essentially they just reverse the travelers. (2 wires in
2 out).
Just be sure this is really a 4 way and not a DPST.

Well, it's brand new out of the box just brought home last night, but I
suppose it's possible could have been swapped by somebody. Not likely,
methinks, but I'll double-check--admit that thought had not crossed my
mind altho that's the way it acts.

There are pictures on the web if you are not sure how it gets wired.

I've done enough previously that I'm aware of that for the normal
configuration -- I know there are some "West Coast" ways that are no
longer allowable by Code but the ones I recall even if I couldn't
reproduce them w/o head-scratching to remember exact configuration were
being fed at the load instead of the first 3-way.

Since the one 3-way I have access to in the new construction is
definitely the feed, I was "just hoping" the two travelers from it did
just go straight to the existing 4-way; if that were the case I put the
new in for trial according to the conventional wiring a la that shown at
(rummag around for link...ah! there's a nice legible one)
http://www.electrical101.com/4way-switches.html.

I guess the next step is as trader says, ring it out to find how Dad
actually did it, or, I'm liking the idea of just moving this existing
location and not having it on the outside door location at all more and
more as I think about it. Reduces count there besides. I'll have to
see what SWMBO thinks about that idea.

Am somewhat curious how this is done, though, it doesn't come to me
otomh how else could be...

--

On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 12:58:27 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 6/27/2019 11:09 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 10:19:37 -0500, dpb wrote:

...

The power is fed to the 3-way switch that was at that location (exterior
door/wall) with three wire cable running whither I cannot discern
precisely. Opening the boxes, the 4-way is on N door, the other 3-way
on the W. I made the hope that the 3-way cable went next to the 4-way
so put the two travelers between the existing 3-way and a new 4-way and
connected the 3-way cable travelers to the other side of the 4-way...

Unfortunately, that apparently is not the actual path as the new 4-way
now acts as straight on-off: in one position all other locations work
as normal; in other position none work.

...


If the travelers all go through the J box you can add as many 4 ways
as you like. Essentially they just reverse the travelers. (2 wires in
2 out).
Just be sure this is really a 4 way and not a DPST.

Well, it's brand new out of the box just brought home last night, but I
suppose it's possible could have been swapped by somebody. Not likely,
methinks, but I'll double-check--admit that thought had not crossed my
mind altho that's the way it acts.

There are pictures on the web if you are not sure how it gets wired.

I've done enough previously that I'm aware of that for the normal
configuration -- I know there are some "West Coast" ways that are no
longer allowable by Code but the ones I recall even if I couldn't
reproduce them w/o head-scratching to remember exact configuration were
being fed at the load instead of the first 3-way.

Since the one 3-way I have access to in the new construction is
definitely the feed, I was "just hoping" the two travelers from it did
just go straight to the existing 4-way; if that were the case I put the
new in for trial according to the conventional wiring a la that shown at
(rummag around for link...ah! there's a nice legible one)
http://www.electrical101.com/4way-switches.html.

I guess the next step is as trader says, ring it out to find how Dad
actually did it, or, I'm liking the idea of just moving this existing
location and not having it on the outside door location at all more and
more as I think about it. Reduces count there besides. I'll have to
see what SWMBO thinks about that idea.

Am somewhat curious how this is done, though, it doesn't come to me
otomh how else could be...

There are essentially 2 ways to run a 3 way. One is where you are
taking the neutral along with you and the switches are basically in a
straight line. These days the code is pretty much forcing that method
since you need a neutral at all switch locations (since 11 or 14 I
think).
The other method is a switch loop where the neutral stops at the 1st 3
way and you run the 3 ungrounded conductors in a switch loop. In that
case all 3 wires in the cable will connect yo the 3 terminals on the
switch and the white should be reidentified some other color,
connected to the common terminal. That is a down and back method
where the reidentified white connects to the hot in the first box. You
always reidentify the white to a hot conductor in a switch loop.

There may be slight variations on this theme but that is the 2 basic
methods and it is identified by all 3 wires in the cable on the switch
at one switch location (the loop) or 2 neutrals tied together (the
straight run)
I have some better pictures somewhere but I don't see them right now
I don't think they are on my web site

On 6/27/2019 3:08 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 12:58:27 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 6/27/2019 11:09 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 10:19:37 -0500, dpb wrote:

...

The power is fed to the 3-way switch that was at that location (exterior
door/wall) with three wire cable running whither I cannot discern
precisely. Opening the boxes, the 4-way is on N door, the other 3-way
on the W. I made the hope that the 3-way cable went next to the 4-way
so put the two travelers between the existing 3-way and a new 4-way and
connected the 3-way cable travelers to the other side of the 4-way...

Unfortunately, that apparently is not the actual path as the new 4-way
now acts as straight on-off: in one position all other locations work
as normal; in other position none work.

...


If the travelers all go through the J box you can add as many 4 ways
as you like. Essentially they just reverse the travelers. (2 wires in
2 out).
Just be sure this is really a 4 way and not a DPST.

Well, it's brand new out of the box just brought home last night, but I
suppose it's possible could have been swapped by somebody. Not likely,
methinks, but I'll double-check--admit that thought had not crossed my
mind altho that's the way it acts.

There are pictures on the web if you are not sure how it gets wired.

I've done enough previously that I'm aware of that for the normal
configuration -- I know there are some "West Coast" ways that are no
longer allowable by Code but the ones I recall even if I couldn't
reproduce them w/o head-scratching to remember exact configuration were
being fed at the load instead of the first 3-way.

Since the one 3-way I have access to in the new construction is
definitely the feed, I was "just hoping" the two travelers from it did
just go straight to the existing 4-way; if that were the case I put the
new in for trial according to the conventional wiring a la that shown at
(rummag around for link...ah! there's a nice legible one)
http://www.electrical101.com/4way-switches.html.

I guess the next step is as trader says, ring it out to find how Dad
actually did it, or, I'm liking the idea of just moving this existing
location and not having it on the outside door location at all more and
more as I think about it. Reduces count there besides. I'll have to
see what SWMBO thinks about that idea.

Am somewhat curious how this is done, though, it doesn't come to me
otomh how else could be...

There are essentially 2 ways to run a 3 way. One is where you are
taking the neutral along with you and the switches are basically in a
straight line. These days the code is pretty much forcing that method
since you need a neutral at all switch locations (since 11 or 14 I
think).
The other method is a switch loop where the neutral stops at the 1st 3
way and you run the 3 ungrounded conductors in a switch loop. In that
case all 3 wires in the cable will connect yo the 3 terminals on the
switch and the white should be reidentified some other color,
connected to the common terminal. That is a down and back method
where the reidentified white connects to the hot in the first box. You
always reidentify the white to a hot conductor in a switch loop.

There may be slight variations on this theme but that is the 2 basic
methods and it is identified by all 3 wires in the cable on the switch
at one switch location (the loop) or 2 neutrals tied together (the
straight run)
I have some better pictures somewhere but I don't see them right now
I don't think they are on my web site

The mystery is solved -- the 4-way contacts are top/bottom not side-side
so the way I had it it was exactly a DPST. If I pay attention to the
markings (colors almost indistinguishable, couldn't really tell which
were bright/not bright but it is fairly dark out there w/o lights on)
more closely, then everything works as expected.

DOH! Sorry for the confusion; should have looked more carefully before...

--

On Sat, 29 Jun 2019 11:39:46 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 6/27/2019 3:08 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 12:58:27 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 6/27/2019 11:09 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 10:19:37 -0500, dpb wrote:

...

The power is fed to the 3-way switch that was at that location (exterior
door/wall) with three wire cable running whither I cannot discern
precisely. Opening the boxes, the 4-way is on N door, the other 3-way
on the W. I made the hope that the 3-way cable went next to the 4-way
so put the two travelers between the existing 3-way and a new 4-way and
connected the 3-way cable travelers to the other side of the 4-way...

Unfortunately, that apparently is not the actual path as the new 4-way
now acts as straight on-off: in one position all other locations work
as normal; in other position none work.

...


If the travelers all go through the J box you can add as many 4 ways
as you like. Essentially they just reverse the travelers. (2 wires in
2 out).
Just be sure this is really a 4 way and not a DPST.

Well, it's brand new out of the box just brought home last night, but I
suppose it's possible could have been swapped by somebody. Not likely,
methinks, but I'll double-check--admit that thought had not crossed my
mind altho that's the way it acts.

There are pictures on the web if you are not sure how it gets wired.

I've done enough previously that I'm aware of that for the normal
configuration -- I know there are some "West Coast" ways that are no
longer allowable by Code but the ones I recall even if I couldn't
reproduce them w/o head-scratching to remember exact configuration were
being fed at the load instead of the first 3-way.

Since the one 3-way I have access to in the new construction is
definitely the feed, I was "just hoping" the two travelers from it did
just go straight to the existing 4-way; if that were the case I put the
new in for trial according to the conventional wiring a la that shown at
(rummag around for link...ah! there's a nice legible one)
http://www.electrical101.com/4way-switches.html.

I guess the next step is as trader says, ring it out to find how Dad
actually did it, or, I'm liking the idea of just moving this existing
location and not having it on the outside door location at all more and
more as I think about it. Reduces count there besides. I'll have to
see what SWMBO thinks about that idea.

Am somewhat curious how this is done, though, it doesn't come to me
otomh how else could be...

There are essentially 2 ways to run a 3 way. One is where you are
taking the neutral along with you and the switches are basically in a
straight line. These days the code is pretty much forcing that method
since you need a neutral at all switch locations (since 11 or 14 I
think).
The other method is a switch loop where the neutral stops at the 1st 3
way and you run the 3 ungrounded conductors in a switch loop. In that
case all 3 wires in the cable will connect yo the 3 terminals on the
switch and the white should be reidentified some other color,
connected to the common terminal. That is a down and back method
where the reidentified white connects to the hot in the first box. You
always reidentify the white to a hot conductor in a switch loop.

There may be slight variations on this theme but that is the 2 basic
methods and it is identified by all 3 wires in the cable on the switch
at one switch location (the loop) or 2 neutrals tied together (the
straight run)
I have some better pictures somewhere but I don't see them right now
I don't think they are on my web site

The mystery is solved -- the 4-way contacts are top/bottom not side-side
so the way I had it it was exactly a DPST. If I pay attention to the
markings (colors almost indistinguishable, couldn't really tell which
were bright/not bright but it is fairly dark out there w/o lights on)
more closely, then everything works as expected.

DOH! Sorry for the confusion; should have looked more carefully before...

Good deal,
Any resolution that doesn't involve firemen and a water damage
recovery company is a success

On 6/29/2019 12:47 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 29 Jun 2019 11:39:46 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 6/27/2019 3:08 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 12:58:27 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 6/27/2019 11:09 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 10:19:37 -0500, dpb wrote:

...

The power is fed to the 3-way switch that was at that location (exterior
door/wall) with three wire cable running whither I cannot discern
precisely. Opening the boxes, the 4-way is on N door, the other 3-way
on the W. I made the hope that the 3-way cable went next to the 4-way
so put the two travelers between the existing 3-way and a new 4-way and
connected the 3-way cable travelers to the other side of the 4-way...

Unfortunately, that apparently is not the actual path as the new 4-way
now acts as straight on-off: in one position all other locations work
as normal; in other position none work.

...


If the travelers all go through the J box you can add as many 4 ways
as you like. Essentially they just reverse the travelers. (2 wires in
2 out).
Just be sure this is really a 4 way and not a DPST.

Well, it's brand new out of the box just brought home last night, but I
suppose it's possible could have been swapped by somebody. Not likely,
methinks, but I'll double-check--admit that thought had not crossed my
mind altho that's the way it acts.

There are pictures on the web if you are not sure how it gets wired.

I've done enough previously that I'm aware of that for the normal
configuration -- I know there are some "West Coast" ways that are no
longer allowable by Code but the ones I recall even if I couldn't
reproduce them w/o head-scratching to remember exact configuration were
being fed at the load instead of the first 3-way.

Since the one 3-way I have access to in the new construction is
definitely the feed, I was "just hoping" the two travelers from it did
just go straight to the existing 4-way; if that were the case I put the
new in for trial according to the conventional wiring a la that shown at
(rummag around for link...ah! there's a nice legible one)
http://www.electrical101.com/4way-switches.html.

I guess the next step is as trader says, ring it out to find how Dad
actually did it, or, I'm liking the idea of just moving this existing
location and not having it on the outside door location at all more and
more as I think about it. Reduces count there besides. I'll have to
see what SWMBO thinks about that idea.

Am somewhat curious how this is done, though, it doesn't come to me
otomh how else could be...

There are essentially 2 ways to run a 3 way. One is where you are
taking the neutral along with you and the switches are basically in a
straight line. These days the code is pretty much forcing that method
since you need a neutral at all switch locations (since 11 or 14 I
think).
The other method is a switch loop where the neutral stops at the 1st 3
way and you run the 3 ungrounded conductors in a switch loop. In that
case all 3 wires in the cable will connect yo the 3 terminals on the
switch and the white should be reidentified some other color,
connected to the common terminal. That is a down and back method
where the reidentified white connects to the hot in the first box. You
always reidentify the white to a hot conductor in a switch loop.

There may be slight variations on this theme but that is the 2 basic
methods and it is identified by all 3 wires in the cable on the switch
at one switch location (the loop) or 2 neutrals tied together (the
straight run)
I have some better pictures somewhere but I don't see them right now
I don't think they are on my web site

The mystery is solved -- the 4-way contacts are top/bottom not side-side
so the way I had it it was exactly a DPST. If I pay attention to the
markings (colors almost indistinguishable, couldn't really tell which
were bright/not bright but it is fairly dark out there w/o lights on)
more closely, then everything works as expected.

DOH! Sorry for the confusion; should have looked more carefully before...

Good deal,
Any resolution that doesn't involve firemen and a water damage
recovery company is a success

Chuckles Like any landing can walk away from?

This different switch than have used before and the configuration is
opposite what was used to is my story and I'm sticking to it.


--

On 6/27/19 10:19 AM, dpb wrote:
OK, carrying on from the previous on extending circuits; have pulled to
the new junction box location--wasn't bad; actually less trouble than I
had expected and had ample cable length on the shortest without
scrimping inside the junction box.

OK, then I had another bright idea -- the dining room is the one with
the four entrance/exit points but only three switches--while not going
to even attempt to get the fourth location, it seemed like a nice
amenity to add a second on the east entrance at the dining room wall
itself instead of all the way to the exterior door.

The power is fed to the 3-way switch that was at that location (exterior
door/wall) with three wire cable running whither I cannot discern
precisely.Â* Opening the boxes, the 4-way is on N door, the other 3-way
on the W.Â* I made the hope that the 3-way cable went next to the 4-way
so put the two travelers between the existing 3-way and a new 4-way and
connected the 3-way cable travelers to the other side of the 4-way...

Unfortunately, that apparently is not the actual path as the new 4-way
now acts as straight on-off:Â* in one position all other locations work
as normal; in other position none work.

I've got some other support work to keep the construction crews moving
I've got to go do so haven't been able to scratch head over this --
anybody here got time to ponder this out and see if can deduce how must
be wired and if I can manage to make this work without having to tear
into interior walls?

If I can't make this work, I'll just live with the location either being
where it was, or, perhaps even better thought, can remove the dining
room control from the exterior door location entirely and reduce the
number there...that may be even better overall solution since there will
be control of the entryway at that same new location so won't have to
backtrack to turn it off on coming home as did which is why the DR
switch needed to be clear out on the exterior door...otherwise you
turned yourself back into a dark house or had to walk back the door to
turn that one off because it was only location for it.

--
You've probably thought of some sort of motion sensors and time
delays off instead of all the switches.

On 6/30/2019 6:58 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 6/27/19 10:19 AM, dpb wrote:
OK, carrying on from the previous on extending circuits; have pulled
to the new junction box location--wasn't bad; actually less trouble
than I had expected and had ample cable length on the shortest without
scrimping inside the junction box.

OK, then I had another bright idea -- the dining room is the one with
the four entrance/exit points but only three switches--while not going
to even attempt to get the fourth location, it seemed like a nice
amenity to add a second on the east entrance at the dining room wall
itself instead of all the way to the exterior door.

The power is fed to the 3-way switch that was at that location
(exterior door/wall) with three wire cable running whither I cannot
discern precisely.Â* Opening the boxes, the 4-way is on N door, the
other 3-way on the W.Â* I made the hope that the 3-way cable went next
to the 4-way so put the two travelers between the existing 3-way and a
new 4-way and connected the 3-way cable travelers to the other side of
the 4-way...

Unfortunately, that apparently is not the actual path as the new 4-way
now acts as straight on-off:Â* in one position all other locations work
as normal; in other position none work.

I've got some other support work to keep the construction crews moving
I've got to go do so haven't been able to scratch head over this --
anybody here got time to ponder this out and see if can deduce how
must be wired and if I can manage to make this work without having to
tear into interior walls?

If I can't make this work, I'll just live with the location either
being where it was, or, perhaps even better thought, can remove the
dining room control from the exterior door location entirely and
reduce the number there...that may be even better overall solution
since there will be control of the entryway at that same new location
so won't have to backtrack to turn it off on coming home as did which
is why the DR switch needed to be clear out on the exterior
door...otherwise you turned yourself back into a dark house or had to
walk back the door to turn that one off because it was only location
for it.

--
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* You've probably thought of some sort of motion sensors and time
delays off instead of all the switches.

Have thought of but still have to get the power there, anyways, so don't
see the real benefit for the application. In earlier thread on
extending circuits had sidebar discussion same and my general
distaste for automated stuff.

Am thinking about one for the front step/porch, however, as realized the
extension of the porch roof blocks quite a lot of the yard light from
reaching the steps themselves and there's not a feasible way to get the
wiring from existing location to add another fixture where it would be
beneficial for the purpose. So, may use one of the motion sensors on
that fixture so that if don't turn it on before leaving it will provide
some direct light on steps coming home. Dad ran wiring for existing
outside light to the garage so it's possible to turn it on when coming
home and before the added porch it was ample to see the steps...we've
adding an extra 8-ft covered porch the roof of which will now be in the
way between...

But, just for the interior lights, no...

--

"dpb" wrote in message ...
On 6/30/2019 6:58 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 6/27/19 10:19 AM, dpb wrote:
OK, carrying on from the previous on extending circuits; have pulled to
the new junction box location--wasn't bad; actually less trouble than I
had expected and had ample cable length on the shortest without
scrimping inside the junction box.

OK, then I had another bright idea -- the dining room is the one with
the four entrance/exit points but only three switches--while not going
to even attempt to get the fourth location, it seemed like a nice
amenity to add a second on the east entrance at the dining room wall
itself instead of all the way to the exterior door.

The power is fed to the 3-way switch that was at that location (exterior
door/wall) with three wire cable running whither I cannot discern
precisely. Opening the boxes, the 4-way is on N door, the other 3-way
on the W. I made the hope that the 3-way cable went next to the 4-way
so put the two travelers between the existing 3-way and a new 4-way and
connected the 3-way cable travelers to the other side of the 4-way...

Unfortunately, that apparently is not the actual path as the new 4-way
now acts as straight on-off: in one position all other locations work
as normal; in other position none work.

I've got some other support work to keep the construction crews moving
I've got to go do so haven't been able to scratch head over this --
anybody here got time to ponder this out and see if can deduce how must
be wired and if I can manage to make this work without having to tear
into interior walls?

If I can't make this work, I'll just live with the location either being
where it was, or, perhaps even better thought, can remove the dining
room control from the exterior door location entirely and reduce the
number there...that may be even better overall solution since there will
be control of the entryway at that same new location so won't have to
backtrack to turn it off on coming home as did which is why the DR
switch needed to be clear out on the exterior door...otherwise you
turned yourself back into a dark house or had to walk back the door to
turn that one off because it was only location for it.

--
You've probably thought of some sort of motion sensors and
time
delays off instead of all the switches.

Have thought of but still have to get the power there, anyways,

No you dont with the Hue motion sensors and kinetic switches.

so don't see the real benefit for the application.

No need to get power there so you can put the switches
and motion sensors anywhere and move them around
effortlessly as you change your mind about the detail.

In earlier thread on extending circuits had sidebar discussion same
and my general distaste for automated stuff.

More fool you.

Am thinking about one for the front step/porch, however, as realized the
extension of the porch roof blocks quite a lot of the yard light from
reaching the steps themselves and there's not a feasible way to get the
wiring from existing location to add another fixture where it would be
beneficial for the purpose. So, may use one of the motion sensors on that
fixture so that if don't turn it on before leaving it will provide some
direct light on steps coming home. Dad ran wiring for existing outside
light to the garage so it's possible to turn it on when coming home and
before the added porch it was ample to see the steps...we've adding an
extra 8-ft covered porch the roof of which will now be in the way
between...

But, just for the interior lights, no...

More fool you, again.

On Mon, 1 Jul 2019 04:09:47 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


Have thought of but still have to get the power there, anyways,

No you don¢t with the Hue motion sensors and kinetic switches.

I told you already before and I tell you again: you can shove your Hue
motion sensors and kinetic switches up your senile arse, senile arsehole!

--
Kerr-Mudd,John addressing senile Rot:
"Auto-contradictor Rod is back! (in the KF)"
MID:

On 6/30/2019 1:09 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"dpb" wrote in message ...
On 6/30/2019 6:58 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 6/27/19 10:19 AM, dpb wrote:
OK, carrying on from the previous on extending circuits; have pulled
to the new junction box location--wasn't bad; actually less trouble
than I had expected and had ample cable length on the shortest
without scrimping inside the junction box.

OK, then I had another bright idea -- the dining room is the one
with the four entrance/exit points but only three switches--while
not going to even attempt to get the fourth location, it seemed like
a nice amenity to add a second on the east entrance at the dining
room wall itself instead of all the way to the exterior door.

The power is fed to the 3-way switch that was at that location
(exterior door/wall) with three wire cable running whither I cannot
discern precisely.Â* Opening the boxes, the 4-way is on N door, the
other 3-way on the W.Â* I made the hope that the 3-way cable went
next to the 4-way so put the two travelers between the existing
3-way and a new 4-way and connected the 3-way cable travelers to the
other side of the 4-way...

Unfortunately, that apparently is not the actual path as the new
4-way now acts as straight on-off:Â* in one position all other
locations work as normal; in other position none work.

I've got some other support work to keep the construction crews
moving I've got to go do so haven't been able to scratch head over
this -- anybody here got time to ponder this out and see if can
deduce how must be wired and if I can manage to make this work
without having to tear into interior walls?

If I can't make this work, I'll just live with the location either
being where it was, or, perhaps even better thought, can remove the
dining room control from the exterior door location entirely and
reduce the number there...that may be even better overall solution
since there will be control of the entryway at that same new
location so won't have to backtrack to turn it off on coming home as
did which is why the DR switch needed to be clear out on the
exterior door...otherwise you turned yourself back into a dark house
or had to walk back the door to turn that one off because it was
only location for it.

--
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* You've probably thought of some sort of motion sensors and
time
delays off instead of all the switches.

Have thought of but still have to get the power there, anyways,

No you dont with the Hue motion sensors and kinetic switches.

so don't see the real benefit for the application.

No need to get power there so you can put the switches
and motion sensors anywhere and move them around
effortlessly as you change your mind about the detail.

In earlier thread on extending circuits had sidebar discussion
same and my general distaste for automated stuff.

More fool you.

Am thinking about one for the front step/porch, however, as realized
the extension of the porch roof blocks quite a lot of the yard light
from reaching the steps themselves and there's not a feasible way to
get the wiring from existing location to add another fixture where it
would be beneficial for the purpose.Â* So, may use one of the motion
sensors on that fixture so that if don't turn it on before leaving it
will provide some direct light on steps coming home.Â* Dad ran wiring
for existing outside light to the garage so it's possible to turn it
on when coming home and before the added porch it was ample to see the
steps...we've adding an extra 8-ft covered porch the roof of which
will now be in the way between...

But, just for the interior lights, no...

More fool you, again.
ploink

On Sun, 30 Jun 2019 08:34:55 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 6/30/2019 6:58 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 6/27/19 10:19 AM, dpb wrote:
OK, carrying on from the previous on extending circuits; have pulled
to the new junction box location--wasn't bad; actually less trouble
than I had expected and had ample cable length on the shortest without
scrimping inside the junction box.

OK, then I had another bright idea -- the dining room is the one with
the four entrance/exit points but only three switches--while not going
to even attempt to get the fourth location, it seemed like a nice
amenity to add a second on the east entrance at the dining room wall
itself instead of all the way to the exterior door.

The power is fed to the 3-way switch that was at that location
(exterior door/wall) with three wire cable running whither I cannot
discern precisely.Â* Opening the boxes, the 4-way is on N door, the
other 3-way on the W.Â* I made the hope that the 3-way cable went next
to the 4-way so put the two travelers between the existing 3-way and a
new 4-way and connected the 3-way cable travelers to the other side of
the 4-way...

Unfortunately, that apparently is not the actual path as the new 4-way
now acts as straight on-off:Â* in one position all other locations work
as normal; in other position none work.

I've got some other support work to keep the construction crews moving
I've got to go do so haven't been able to scratch head over this --
anybody here got time to ponder this out and see if can deduce how
must be wired and if I can manage to make this work without having to
tear into interior walls?

If I can't make this work, I'll just live with the location either
being where it was, or, perhaps even better thought, can remove the
dining room control from the exterior door location entirely and
reduce the number there...that may be even better overall solution
since there will be control of the entryway at that same new location
so won't have to backtrack to turn it off on coming home as did which
is why the DR switch needed to be clear out on the exterior
door...otherwise you turned yourself back into a dark house or had to
walk back the door to turn that one off because it was only location
for it.

--
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* You've probably thought of some sort of motion sensors and time
delays off instead of all the switches.

Have thought of but still have to get the power there, anyways, so don't
see the real benefit for the application. In earlier thread on
extending circuits had sidebar discussion same and my general
distaste for automated stuff.

Am thinking about one for the front step/porch, however, as realized the
extension of the porch roof blocks quite a lot of the yard light from
reaching the steps themselves and there's not a feasible way to get the
wiring from existing location to add another fixture where it would be
beneficial for the purpose. So, may use one of the motion sensors on
that fixture so that if don't turn it on before leaving it will provide
some direct light on steps coming home. Dad ran wiring for existing
outside light to the garage so it's possible to turn it on when coming
home and before the added porch it was ample to see the steps...we've
adding an extra 8-ft covered porch the roof of which will now be in the
way between...

But, just for the interior lights, no...

Motion sensors are good inside and out but I don't use them for the
primary lighting, just "walking around" light.
You can go anywhere in the house or outside and have the light follow
you here.
It is not work light, just low level light that is enough to walk
around maybe get a drink of water or pee. The kitchen was the first,
then bathrooms, halls and the great room.

"dpb" wrote in message ...
On 6/30/2019 1:09 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"dpb" wrote in message
...
On 6/30/2019 6:58 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 6/27/19 10:19 AM, dpb wrote:
OK, carrying on from the previous on extending circuits; have pulled
to the new junction box location--wasn't bad; actually less trouble
than I had expected and had ample cable length on the shortest without
scrimping inside the junction box.

OK, then I had another bright idea -- the dining room is the one with
the four entrance/exit points but only three switches--while not going
to even attempt to get the fourth location, it seemed like a nice
amenity to add a second on the east entrance at the dining room wall
itself instead of all the way to the exterior door.

The power is fed to the 3-way switch that was at that location
(exterior door/wall) with three wire cable running whither I cannot
discern precisely. Opening the boxes, the 4-way is on N door, the
other 3-way on the W. I made the hope that the 3-way cable went next
to the 4-way so put the two travelers between the existing 3-way and a
new 4-way and connected the 3-way cable travelers to the other side of
the 4-way...

Unfortunately, that apparently is not the actual path as the new 4-way
now acts as straight on-off: in one position all other locations work
as normal; in other position none work.

I've got some other support work to keep the construction crews moving
I've got to go do so haven't been able to scratch head over this --
anybody here got time to ponder this out and see if can deduce how
must be wired and if I can manage to make this work without having to
tear into interior walls?

If I can't make this work, I'll just live with the location either
being where it was, or, perhaps even better thought, can remove the
dining room control from the exterior door location entirely and
reduce the number there...that may be even better overall solution
since there will be control of the entryway at that same new location
so won't have to backtrack to turn it off on coming home as did which
is why the DR switch needed to be clear out on the exterior
door...otherwise you turned yourself back into a dark house or had to
walk back the door to turn that one off because it was only location
for it.

--
You've probably thought of some sort of motion sensors and
time
delays off instead of all the switches.

Have thought of but still have to get the power there, anyways,

No you dont with the Hue motion sensors and kinetic switches.

so don't see the real benefit for the application.

No need to get power there so you can put the switches
and motion sensors anywhere and move them around
effortlessly as you change your mind about the detail.

In earlier thread on extending circuits had sidebar discussion same
and my general distaste for automated stuff.

More fool you.

Am thinking about one for the front step/porch, however, as realized the
extension of the porch roof blocks quite a lot of the yard light from
reaching the steps themselves and there's not a feasible way to get the
wiring from existing location to add another fixture where it would be
beneficial for the purpose. So, may use one of the motion sensors on
that fixture so that if don't turn it on before leaving it will provide
some direct light on steps coming home. Dad ran wiring for existing
outside light to the garage so it's possible to turn it on when coming
home and before the added porch it was ample to see the steps...we've
adding an extra 8-ft covered porch the roof of which will now be in the
way between...

But, just for the interior lights, no...

More fool you, again.

ploink

Like anyone actually cares what fools like you do or do not read.

On Mon, 1 Jul 2019 06:04:35 +1000, SamOscar, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:


ploink

Like anyone actually cares what fools like you do or do not read.

What a pathological asshole you are, senile Rodent! tsk

--
Richard addressing Rot Speed:
"**** you're thick/pathetic excuse for a troll."
MID:

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 30 Jun 2019 08:34:55 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 6/30/2019 6:58 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 6/27/19 10:19 AM, dpb wrote:
OK, carrying on from the previous on extending circuits; have pulled
to the new junction box location--wasn't bad; actually less trouble
than I had expected and had ample cable length on the shortest without
scrimping inside the junction box.

OK, then I had another bright idea -- the dining room is the one with
the four entrance/exit points but only three switches--while not going
to even attempt to get the fourth location, it seemed like a nice
amenity to add a second on the east entrance at the dining room wall
itself instead of all the way to the exterior door.

The power is fed to the 3-way switch that was at that location
(exterior door/wall) with three wire cable running whither I cannot
discern precisely. Opening the boxes, the 4-way is on N door, the
other 3-way on the W. I made the hope that the 3-way cable went next
to the 4-way so put the two travelers between the existing 3-way and a
new 4-way and connected the 3-way cable travelers to the other side of
the 4-way...

Unfortunately, that apparently is not the actual path as the new 4-way
now acts as straight on-off: in one position all other locations work
as normal; in other position none work.

I've got some other support work to keep the construction crews moving
I've got to go do so haven't been able to scratch head over this --
anybody here got time to ponder this out and see if can deduce how
must be wired and if I can manage to make this work without having to
tear into interior walls?

If I can't make this work, I'll just live with the location either
being where it was, or, perhaps even better thought, can remove the
dining room control from the exterior door location entirely and
reduce the number there...that may be even better overall solution
since there will be control of the entryway at that same new location
so won't have to backtrack to turn it off on coming home as did which
is why the DR switch needed to be clear out on the exterior
door...otherwise you turned yourself back into a dark house or had to
walk back the door to turn that one off because it was only location
for it.

--
You've probably thought of some sort of motion sensors and
time
delays off instead of all the switches.

Have thought of but still have to get the power there, anyways, so don't
see the real benefit for the application. In earlier thread on
extending circuits had sidebar discussion same and my general
distaste for automated stuff.

Am thinking about one for the front step/porch, however, as realized the
extension of the porch roof blocks quite a lot of the yard light from
reaching the steps themselves and there's not a feasible way to get the
wiring from existing location to add another fixture where it would be
beneficial for the purpose. So, may use one of the motion sensors on
that fixture so that if don't turn it on before leaving it will provide
some direct light on steps coming home. Dad ran wiring for existing
outside light to the garage so it's possible to turn it on when coming
home and before the added porch it was ample to see the steps...we've
adding an extra 8-ft covered porch the roof of which will now be in the
way between...

But, just for the interior lights, no...

Motion sensors are good inside and out but I don't use
them for the primary lighting, just "walking around" light.

I use them everywhere now and dont have any manual
switches at all anymore. Much more convenient.

You can go anywhere in the house or outside
and have the light follow you here.

It is not work light, just low level light that is enough to walk
around maybe get a drink of water or pee. The kitchen was
the first,then bathrooms, halls and the great room.

I use them for work light, particularly with the kitchen,
where I do the beer brewing and for seeing what is in
the pantry shelving etc and the room I store the beer in.

On Mon, 1 Jul 2019 06:47:49 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


Motion sensors are good inside and out but I don't use
them for the primary lighting, just "walking around" light.

I use them

Nobody gives a ****, lonely senile asshole!

--
"Anonymous" to trolling senile Rot Speed:
"You can **** off as you know less than pig **** you sad
little ignorant ****."
MID:

posted for all of us...



On Sat, 29 Jun 2019 11:39:46 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 6/27/2019 3:08 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 12:58:27 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 6/27/2019 11:09 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 10:19:37 -0500, dpb wrote:

...

The power is fed to the 3-way switch that was at that location (exterior
door/wall) with three wire cable running whither I cannot discern
precisely. Opening the boxes, the 4-way is on N door, the other 3-way
on the W. I made the hope that the 3-way cable went next to the 4-way
so put the two travelers between the existing 3-way and a new 4-way and
connected the 3-way cable travelers to the other side of the 4-way...

Unfortunately, that apparently is not the actual path as the new 4-way
now acts as straight on-off: in one position all other locations work
as normal; in other position none work.

...


If the travelers all go through the J box you can add as many 4 ways
as you like. Essentially they just reverse the travelers. (2 wires in
2 out).
Just be sure this is really a 4 way and not a DPST.

Well, it's brand new out of the box just brought home last night, but I
suppose it's possible could have been swapped by somebody. Not likely,
methinks, but I'll double-check--admit that thought had not crossed my
mind altho that's the way it acts.

There are pictures on the web if you are not sure how it gets wired.

I've done enough previously that I'm aware of that for the normal
configuration -- I know there are some "West Coast" ways that are no
longer allowable by Code but the ones I recall even if I couldn't
reproduce them w/o head-scratching to remember exact configuration were
being fed at the load instead of the first 3-way.

Since the one 3-way I have access to in the new construction is
definitely the feed, I was "just hoping" the two travelers from it did
just go straight to the existing 4-way; if that were the case I put the
new in for trial according to the conventional wiring a la that shown at
(rummag around for link...ah! there's a nice legible one)
http://www.electrical101.com/4way-switches.html.

I guess the next step is as trader says, ring it out to find how Dad
actually did it, or, I'm liking the idea of just moving this existing
location and not having it on the outside door location at all more and
more as I think about it. Reduces count there besides. I'll have to
see what SWMBO thinks about that idea.

Am somewhat curious how this is done, though, it doesn't come to me
otomh how else could be...

There are essentially 2 ways to run a 3 way. One is where you are
taking the neutral along with you and the switches are basically in a
straight line. These days the code is pretty much forcing that method
since you need a neutral at all switch locations (since 11 or 14 I
think).
The other method is a switch loop where the neutral stops at the 1st 3
way and you run the 3 ungrounded conductors in a switch loop. In that
case all 3 wires in the cable will connect yo the 3 terminals on the
switch and the white should be reidentified some other color,
connected to the common terminal. That is a down and back method
where the reidentified white connects to the hot in the first box. You
always reidentify the white to a hot conductor in a switch loop.

There may be slight variations on this theme but that is the 2 basic
methods and it is identified by all 3 wires in the cable on the switch
at one switch location (the loop) or 2 neutrals tied together (the
straight run)
I have some better pictures somewhere but I don't see them right now
I don't think they are on my web site

The mystery is solved -- the 4-way contacts are top/bottom not side-side
so the way I had it it was exactly a DPST. If I pay attention to the
markings (colors almost indistinguishable, couldn't really tell which
were bright/not bright but it is fairly dark out there w/o lights on)
more closely, then everything works as expected.

DOH! Sorry for the confusion; should have looked more carefully before...

Good deal,
Any resolution that doesn't involve firemen and a water damage
recovery company is a success

Yup!

--
Tekkie