Clare - are smaller car tires easier to balance than SUV tires?
https://i.postimg.cc/kG1M7cLd/mount15.jpg

A neighbor was in need of tires who knew that I had bought a few extra for
her long ago where they've been sitting outside in the rain & mud for
months waiting for her to need them.
https://i.postimg.cc/7L8HPbtb/mount16.jpg

She finally wore through the belts and had to stop over for an "emergency"
tire change, which I did for her, but she was in a rush so we did it in
about 20 minutes from start to finish.

I had to do it so fast that I didn't see the yellow dot until I looked at
this picture, where I mounted the red dot to the valve stem instead of the
yellow dot as you had recommended for when there are no match mounting
marks.

I did statically balance and she reported no vibration whatsoever. I didn't
spend a lot of time cleaning up things so I'm surprised there's no
imbalance given how quickly I did the job for her.

Just wondering if you've found that these tiny 14-inch tires are a piece of
cake compared to the normal truck SUV tires (like the Optimo's that I'm
used to) both in terms of mounting and balancing?

On 6/12/19 1:52 AM, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
she was in a rush so we did it in
about 20 minutes from start to finish.

Now that's a quickie!

On 6/12/2019 6:24 AM, devnull wrote:
On 6/12/19 1:52 AM, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
she was in a rush so we did it in
about 20 minutes from start to finish.

Now that's a quickie!


Yeah, but it was 19 minutes foreplay.

On 6/12/19 4:17 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 6/12/2019 6:24 AM, devnull wrote:
On 6/12/19 1:52 AM, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
she was in a rush so we did it in
about 20 minutes from start to finish.

Now that's a quickie!


Yeah, but it was 19 minutes foreplay.


If the nuts are rusty, sometimes you got to heat up the stud to get them off.

On 6/12/2019 4:43 PM, devnull wrote:
On 6/12/19 4:17 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 6/12/2019 6:24 AM, devnull wrote:
On 6/12/19 1:52 AM, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
she was in a rush so we did it in
about 20 minutes from start to finish.

Now that's a quickie!


Yeah, but it was 19 minutes foreplay.


If the nuts are rusty, sometimes you got to heat up the stud to get them
off.


Better than having them bleed
https://nypost.com/2019/06/11/florid...hey-bled-cops/

Ed Pawlowski posted for all of us...



On 6/12/2019 4:43 PM, devnull wrote:
On 6/12/19 4:17 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 6/12/2019 6:24 AM, devnull wrote:
On 6/12/19 1:52 AM, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
she was in a rush so we did it in
about 20 minutes from start to finish.

Now that's a quickie!


Yeah, but it was 19 minutes foreplay.


If the nuts are rusty, sometimes you got to heat up the stud to get them
off.


Better than having them bleed
https://nypost.com/2019/06/11/florid...hey-bled-cops/

Remember Lorena Bobbitt? (How appropriate is the last name? 8~(

--
Tekkie

On Wed, 12 Jun 2019 05:52:33 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder"
wrote:

Clare - are smaller car tires easier to balance than SUV tires?
https://i.postimg.cc/kG1M7cLd/mount15.jpg

A neighbor was in need of tires who knew that I had bought a few extra for
her long ago where they've been sitting outside in the rain & mud for
months waiting for her to need them.
https://i.postimg.cc/7L8HPbtb/mount16.jpg

She finally wore through the belts and had to stop over for an "emergency"
tire change, which I did for her, but she was in a rush so we did it in
about 20 minutes from start to finish.

I had to do it so fast that I didn't see the yellow dot until I looked at
this picture, where I mounted the red dot to the valve stem instead of the
yellow dot as you had recommended for when there are no match mounting
marks.

I did statically balance and she reported no vibration whatsoever. I didn't
spend a lot of time cleaning up things so I'm surprised there's no
imbalance given how quickly I did the job for her.

Just wondering if you've found that these tiny 14-inch tires are a piece of
cake compared to the normal truck SUV tires (like the Optimo's that I'm
used to) both in terms of mounting and balancing?


Yes and no. The smaller tire has less total mass so a small amount
of weight has more effect than it would on a bigger tire - but it is
not as far from the center (shorter moment arm) so it has less effect.

GOOD tires of any size are easier to ballance than crappy tires. Ealy
Hankooks were a real pain to ballance. Apparentlythey have gotten
better.

On Wed, 12 Jun 2019 21:37:49 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote:

Yes and no. The smaller tire has less total mass so a small amount
of weight has more effect than it would on a bigger tire - but it is
not as far from the center (shorter moment arm) so it has less effect.

Thanks Clare as I never mounted and balanced a tire so fast on purpose, not
even taking time to clean the wheel or even remove the old weights until
AFTER I put it on the static balance stand.

These tires are Lexani LXTR 203 model tires, of size P185/65R14 with load
range 86 and speed range H (traction A, temperature A, and treadwear 500),
where I don't know WHAT specific thing makes these so easy to balance, but
they're so easy that something is very different.

I was surprised that I skipped a bunch of steps, and yet, the wheel _still_
didn't cause any perceptible vibration, according to the driver, even as
it's a front wheel drive vehicle with the tire being the driver side front
tire.

I had told the owner to take it to Costco for the $5 wheel balancing, but
that wasn't even necessary, even as I skipped a bunch of balancing steps.

The old tires on her car were model "Grand Prix" of size P185/65R14 load
range 86 and speed of T (traction A, temperature B, and treadwear 500)
which seem to be wearing on both edges, where here are the front two tires
of this FWD vehicle with the tires set up in the appropriate position.
https://i.postimg.cc/JzvTyjKg/mount18.jpg

I had previously replaced her passenger front tire due to this gouge
https://i.postimg.cc/4dTBPZDQ/mount19.jpg

Where the driver front tire wore into the steel belts which jutted out
https://i.postimg.cc/85Bwn9DQ/mount20.jpg

She needed to be somewhere so I was in such a rush, that I didn't even
_see_ the yellow (weight) dot when I mounted the valve stem to the red
(uniformity) dot:
https://i.postimg.cc/7L8HPbtb/mount16.jpg

Where I only noticed the yellow dot when I looked at this picture!
https://i.postimg.cc/kG1M7cLd/mount15.jpg

Back to how easy it was to statically balance these tires, not only did
this tiny car have the only four-lug wheel I've ever worked on, but popping
the first bead of this tiny 14-inch P185 tire was so simple that it took
only a couple of pumps and about triple that to break the second bead.

Removing the third bead and fourth bead was, likewise, surprisingly simple.
Popping on the fifth bead was almost entirely done by hand, it was that
easy, where only the sixth bead took any effort whatsoever that required a
force that any teenager could exert.

With two wheel weights already on the rim, and by match mounting the red
dot (I didn't even _see_ that yellow dot until I looked at the picture
afterward), the balance was spot on in the middle of the bubble level.

So I didn't even remove the _old_ wheel weights, which I normally would
have done as part of the wheel prep after breaking the bead and removing
the old tire. I didn't even replace the valve stem, as I recently used up
the four valve stems I had bought after speaking to you about getting the
bolt-in kind so I didn't have any available.

The tires have been waiting for her outside in the mud and rain, so I
simply bounced and blew out the leaves and crud where I would have cleaned
the tires more had I more time, where I might have noticed that yellow dot
which was slightly worn away from being outside all winter.

GOOD tires of any size are easier to ballance than crappy tires. Ealy
Hankooks were a real pain to ballance. Apparentlythey have gotten
better.

Funny you mention the Hankook's where I just snapped this for you!
https://i.postimg.cc/zGVtXxwK/mount17.jpg

Those are Hancook Optimo H724 model tires of size P225/75R15, with the load
range of 102 and speed range of S (traction A, temperature B, and treadwear
500), which were MUCH HARDER to mount and dismount and harder to balance
too, it seems.

I'm planning on mounting and balancing them this weekend on an SUV which
keeps wearing out the front tires which I have to get alignment tools to
check the camber mostly since they're wearing on the outside edge.

When I mount those thick-sided Hancooks, on steel wheels, I will mount by
the _yellow_ (minimum weight) dot for the first time, instead of by the red
(maximum runout) dot, as I recall you recommended for when there's no match
mounting mark on the rims.

Thanks for being helpful where you're just about the only guy on this
newsgroup who knows anything about this subject matter, which I greatly
appreciate your advice, and where I try to remember it all over the years,
where I'm starting to lose count of how many tires I've done in the past
five years with the crappy Harbor Freight tools (they work, but they suck).

On 13/6/19 2:32 pm, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
On Wed, 12 Jun 2019 21:37:49 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote:

Yes and no. The smaller tire has less total mass so a small amount
of weight has more effect than it would on a bigger tire - but it is
not as far from the center (shorter moment arm) so it has less effect.

Thanks Clare as I never mounted and balanced a tire so fast on purpose, not
even taking time to clean the wheel or even remove the old weights until
AFTER I put it on the static balance stand.

These tires are Lexani LXTR 203 model tires, of size P185/65R14 with load
range 86 and speed range H (traction A, temperature A, and treadwear 500),
where I don't know WHAT specific thing makes these so easy to balance, but
they're so easy that something is very different.

I was surprised that I skipped a bunch of steps, and yet, the wheel _still_
didn't cause any perceptible vibration, according to the driver, even as
it's a front wheel drive vehicle with the tire being the driver side front
tire.

I had told the owner to take it to Costco for the $5 wheel balancing, but
that wasn't even necessary, even as I skipped a bunch of balancing steps.

The old tires on her car were model "Grand Prix" of size P185/65R14 load
range 86 and speed of T (traction A, temperature B, and treadwear 500)
which seem to be wearing on both edges, where here are the front two tires
of this FWD vehicle with the tires set up in the appropriate position.
https://i.postimg.cc/JzvTyjKg/mount18.jpg

I had previously replaced her passenger front tire due to this gouge
https://i.postimg.cc/4dTBPZDQ/mount19.jpg

Where the driver front tire wore into the steel belts which jutted out
https://i.postimg.cc/85Bwn9DQ/mount20.jpg

She needed to be somewhere so I was in such a rush, that I didn't even
_see_ the yellow (weight) dot when I mounted the valve stem to the red
(uniformity) dot:
https://i.postimg.cc/7L8HPbtb/mount16.jpg

Where I only noticed the yellow dot when I looked at this picture!
https://i.postimg.cc/kG1M7cLd/mount15.jpg

Back to how easy it was to statically balance these tires, not only did
this tiny car have the only four-lug wheel I've ever worked on, but popping
the first bead of this tiny 14-inch P185 tire was so simple that it took
only a couple of pumps and about triple that to break the second bead.

Removing the third bead and fourth bead was, likewise, surprisingly simple.
Popping on the fifth bead was almost entirely done by hand, it was that
easy, where only the sixth bead took any effort whatsoever that required a
force that any teenager could exert.

With two wheel weights already on the rim, and by match mounting the red
dot (I didn't even _see_ that yellow dot until I looked at the picture
afterward), the balance was spot on in the middle of the bubble level.

So I didn't even remove the _old_ wheel weights, which I normally would
have done as part of the wheel prep after breaking the bead and removing
the old tire. I didn't even replace the valve stem, as I recently used up
the four valve stems I had bought after speaking to you about getting the
bolt-in kind so I didn't have any available.

The tires have been waiting for her outside in the mud and rain, so I
simply bounced and blew out the leaves and crud where I would have cleaned
the tires more had I more time, where I might have noticed that yellow dot
which was slightly worn away from being outside all winter.

GOOD tires of any size are easier to ballance than crappy tires. Ealy
Hankooks were a real pain to ballance. Apparentlythey have gotten
better.

Funny you mention the Hankook's where I just snapped this for you!
https://i.postimg.cc/zGVtXxwK/mount17.jpg

Those are Hancook Optimo H724 model tires of size P225/75R15, with the load
range of 102 and speed range of S (traction A, temperature B, and treadwear
500), which were MUCH HARDER to mount and dismount and harder to balance
too, it seems.

I'm planning on mounting and balancing them this weekend on an SUV which
keeps wearing out the front tires which I have to get alignment tools to
check the camber mostly since they're wearing on the outside edge.

You can check the camber all you like but the answer is more likely in
the SAI angles and you will be able to do SFA about that. Quiz the owner
about type of use instead. If it is all city and suburban driving, tyre
wear on the outside of the tread can be considered 100% normal.
Turn the wheels to a high level of lock and the obvious will confront
you. The type of feathering will tell you what the actual cause is.

When I mount those thick-sided Hancooks, on steel wheels, I will mount by
the _yellow_ (minimum weight) dot for the first time, instead of by the red
(maximum runout) dot, as I recall you recommended for when there's no match
mounting mark on the rims.

Thanks for being helpful where you're just about the only guy on this
newsgroup who knows anything about this subject matter, which I greatly
appreciate your advice, and where I try to remember it all over the years,
where I'm starting to lose count of how many tires I've done in the past
five years with the crappy Harbor Freight tools (they work, but they suck).



--

Xeno


Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On Thu, 13 Jun 2019 17:11:14 +1000, Xeno wrote:

You can check the camber all you like but the answer is more likely in
the SAI angles and you will be able to do SFA about that.

Hi Xeno,

Thanks for your purposefully helpful advice on kingpin inclination angle
(aka steering axis inclination), and perhaps included angle, neither of
which have I delved into yet (as I'm starting with camber, which is the
basis for caster calculations, and where toe is relatively simple).
http://www.valleyofhastings.com/WheelAlignment2.pdf

Other than Clare, you and maybe one or two other folks here are
knowledgeable in the important details of home alignment checks &
adjustments, where I don't usually disagree with anything you guys say, as
you know more than I do.

We have to remember a home DIY alignment check & adjust is sort of like
doing a DIY tuneup versus a complete engine overhaul
o A DIY caster/camber/toe check/adjust is to a professional alignment
o as a DIY tuneup is to a professional engine blueprinting overhaul

The fact is that the SIA is a "non adujstable" angle:
https://www.freeasestudyguides.com/included-angle.html

The fact it's not adjustable means it is in a different category than
o caster
o camber
o toe

While SIA is not normally adjustable, looking this up anyway for more
insight, it seems SIA checks generally simply need yet _another_ magnetic
bubble gauge, much like the camber gauge apparently, but offset by 90
degrees, according to this cite:
o Checking the Steering Axis Inclination Angle
http://route66hotrodhigh.com/Inclination.html
Which says:
"To measure steering axis inclination, the method is identical to caster
measurement except that you use the steering axis inclination guage [sic]
which is at a 90 deg angle to the caster gauge. The wheel is turned 20 deg
inward. The steering axis inclination gauge is centered for 0 deg caster.
There is an adjustment screw on the back of the gauge that allows you to
set it for 0 deg. The wheel is then turned to 20 deg outward for a total
movement of 40 degrees. The steering axis inclination angle is read off the
gauge."

The key question is where to get that SIA gauge, which, apparently, can be
replaced with a normal magnetic caster gauge according to this patent:
o Device & method for measuring SAI on a steerable wheel (#4,546,548)
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4546548.pdf

In short, if we're aligning a vehicle that we own and drive often, then we
don't have any reason to suspect SIA changes (which will only occur with
bent or worn parts), and hence, they aren't part of what typically changes
(which is caster, camber, and toe).
https://www.motor.com/magazinepdfs/062002_05.pdf

about type of use instead. If it is all city and suburban driving, tyre
wear on the outside of the tread can be considered 100% normal.

On this mountain, everyone wears tires sooner than people who drive in
flatland do, where there is just "something" horrific about five miles of
steep driving,

Most seem to wear on the outside edge, which I still haven't figured out
exactly why. The road is about 5 miles at about a 9 percent angle with very
many 180 degree and even 270 degree switchbacks, but the speeds are rather
slow, where the road is too narrow to even have panted centerlines and
where the nominal speed limit for such roads is 25mph.

Given nobody drives 25 mph anywhere, we can figure it's something like 30
mph to 40 mph top speed but there's a lot of braking in between. Me? I just
put the tranny in neutral and roll down the entire five miles by giving up
potential energy, where I only brake when I must and I take the turns very
wide (as most people do) which helps maintain speed.

Somehow, _that_ process (which most people do, I think, but in gear most
likely), wears tires out like you can't believe, where tires get half the
stated mileage, as far as I can tell by aggregate conversations.

Turn the wheels to a high level of lock and the obvious will confront
you. The type of feathering will tell you what the actual cause is.

I do admit that I can't 'read' a tire very well. I've tried, but rotations
screw up the readings, and certainly there can be multiple causes.

The type of feathering I mostly see is the kind you can feel after only
about 1000 miles on the outside edge, for about 3 inches of tread, where
there is a sharp lip that is feathered into that outside tread that you can
only feel moving your hand clockwise over the front tire tread on the
outside 3 inches.

I need to learn more, but I think that's "normal" since it happens even
after I get a professional alignment. I'm due for one soon for a couple of
cars, which is why, instead of paying the $150 per vehicle, which for the 3
cars I want to do first, will be almost five hundred bucks, I'd rather buy
the tools to do it myself for that same five hundred bucks.
o Caster gauge (to measure caster & calculate camber)
o Caster jig (to lock onto the wheel for the caster gauge to be accurate)
o Wheel plates (to move the wheels for adjustment under suspension loading)
o Toe plates (to enable single-person linear measurement to centerline)

After having discussed this with Clare in the past, I know we can redneck
some of that, but overall, those four items seem to be the key items needed
for a home DIY check/change of caster, camber, & toe, do you agree?

On Thu, 13 Jun 2019 20:28:17 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder"
wrote:

On Thu, 13 Jun 2019 17:11:14 +1000, Xeno wrote:

You can check the camber all you like but the answer is more likely in
the SAI angles and you will be able to do SFA about that.

Hi Xeno,

Thanks for your purposefully helpful advice on kingpin inclination angle
(aka steering axis inclination), and perhaps included angle, neither of
which have I delved into yet (as I'm starting with camber, which is the
basis for caster calculations, and where toe is relatively simple).
http://www.valleyofhastings.com/WheelAlignment2.pdf

Other than Clare, you and maybe one or two other folks here are
knowledgeable in the important details of home alignment checks &
adjustments, where I don't usually disagree with anything you guys say, as
you know more than I do.

We have to remember a home DIY alignment check & adjust is sort of like
doing a DIY tuneup versus a complete engine overhaul
o A DIY caster/camber/toe check/adjust is to a professional alignment
o as a DIY tuneup is to a professional engine blueprinting overhaul

The fact is that the SIA is a "non adujstable" angle:
https://www.freeasestudyguides.com/included-angle.html

The fact it's not adjustable means it is in a different category than
o caster
o camber
o toe

While SIA is not normally adjustable, looking this up anyway for more
insight, it seems SIA checks generally simply need yet _another_ magnetic
bubble gauge, much like the camber gauge apparently, but offset by 90
degrees, according to this cite:
o Checking the Steering Axis Inclination Angle
http://route66hotrodhigh.com/Inclination.html
Which says:
"To measure steering axis inclination, the method is identical to caster
measurement except that you use the steering axis inclination guage [sic]
which is at a 90 deg angle to the caster gauge. The wheel is turned 20 deg
inward. The steering axis inclination gauge is centered for 0 deg caster.
There is an adjustment screw on the back of the gauge that allows you to
set it for 0 deg. The wheel is then turned to 20 deg outward for a total
movement of 40 degrees. The steering axis inclination angle is read off the
gauge."

The key question is where to get that SIA gauge, which, apparently, can be
replaced with a normal magnetic caster gauge according to this patent:
o Device & method for measuring SAI on a steerable wheel (#4,546,548)
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4546548.pdf

In short, if we're aligning a vehicle that we own and drive often, then we
don't have any reason to suspect SIA changes (which will only occur with
bent or worn parts), and hence, they aren't part of what typically changes
(which is caster, camber, and toe).
https://www.motor.com/magazinepdfs/062002_05.pdf

about type of use instead. If it is all city and suburban driving, tyre
wear on the outside of the tread can be considered 100% normal.

On this mountain, everyone wears tires sooner than people who drive in
flatland do, where there is just "something" horrific about five miles of
steep driving,

I'd be cranking in a couple degrees of negative camber for extensive
downhill twisties. And running about 36PSI minimum pressure in the
front tires.

Most seem to wear on the outside edge, which I still haven't figured out
exactly why. The road is about 5 miles at about a 9 percent angle with very
many 180 degree and even 270 degree switchbacks, but the speeds are rather
slow, where the road is too narrow to even have panted centerlines and
where the nominal speed limit for such roads is 25mph.

Given nobody drives 25 mph anywhere, we can figure it's something like 30
mph to 40 mph top speed but there's a lot of braking in between. Me? I just
put the tranny in neutral and roll down the entire five miles by giving up
potential energy, where I only brake when I must and I take the turns very
wide (as most people do) which helps maintain speed.

Somehow, _that_ process (which most people do, I think, but in gear most
likely), wears tires out like you can't believe, where tires get half the
stated mileage, as far as I can tell by aggregate conversations.

Turn the wheels to a high level of lock and the obvious will confront
you. The type of feathering will tell you what the actual cause is.

I do admit that I can't 'read' a tire very well. I've tried, but rotations
screw up the readings, and certainly there can be multiple causes.

The type of feathering I mostly see is the kind you can feel after only
about 1000 miles on the outside edge, for about 3 inches of tread, where
there is a sharp lip that is feathered into that outside tread that you can
only feel moving your hand clockwise over the front tire tread on the
outside 3 inches.

I need to learn more, but I think that's "normal" since it happens even
after I get a professional alignment. I'm due for one soon for a couple of
cars, which is why, instead of paying the $150 per vehicle, which for the 3
cars I want to do first, will be almost five hundred bucks, I'd rather buy
the tools to do it myself for that same five hundred bucks.
o Caster gauge (to measure caster & calculate camber)

You got that backwards - - - - You MEASURE camber and calculate
caster (unless you have PROPER equipment which measures both)
o Caster jig (to lock onto the wheel for the caster gauge to be accurate)
o Wheel plates (to move the wheels for adjustment under suspension loading)
o Toe plates (to enable single-person linear measurement to centerline)

After having discussed this with Clare in the past, I know we can redneck
some of that, but overall, those four items seem to be the key items needed
for a home DIY check/change of caster, camber, & toe, do you agree?


It might take a REAL PRO to modify the camber properly likely require
installation of either camber plates or long lower control arms (or
offset bushings)

On 14/6/19 6:28 am, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
On Thu, 13 Jun 2019 17:11:14 +1000, Xeno wrote:

You can check the camber all you like but the answer is more likely in
the SAI angles and you will be able to do SFA about that.

Hi Xeno,

Thanks for your purposefully helpful advice on kingpin inclination angle
(aka steering axis inclination), and perhaps included angle, neither of
which have I delved into yet (as I'm starting with camber, which is the
basis for caster calculations, and where toe is relatively simple).
http://www.valleyofhastings.com/WheelAlignment2.pdf

Use the term Steering Axis Inclination (SAI) as your vehicle likely does
not have kingpins. They are only found on trucks these days. I am of the
old school so I still use KPI but I found, when teaching apprentices,
the term is meaningless to them because most have never seen kingpins
much less worked on a vehicle so equipped.

Other than Clare, you and maybe one or two other folks here are
knowledgeable in the important details of home alignment checks &
adjustments, where I don't usually disagree with anything you guys say, as
you know more than I do.

We have to remember a home DIY alignment check & adjust is sort of like
doing a DIY tuneup versus a complete engine overhaul
o A DIY caster/camber/toe check/adjust is to a professional alignment
o as a DIY tuneup is to a professional engine blueprinting overhaul

The fact is that the SIA is a "non adujstable" angle:
https://www.freeasestudyguides.com/included-angle.html

The fact it's not adjustable means it is in a different category than
o caster
o camber
o toe

SAI, to the serviceman, is a *diagnosis angle* in much the same way as
*toe out on turns* (TOOT) is a diagnosis angle. If your toe is correct
but TOOT is incorrect, you can be assured that you have something that
is *bent*, usually a steering arm. Note, you cannot *adjust* TOOT in
cars as it is *designed in* as part of the Ackermann Angle.

While SIA is not normally adjustable, looking this up anyway for more
insight, it seems SIA checks generally simply need yet _another_ magnetic
bubble gauge, much like the camber gauge apparently, but offset by 90
degrees, according to this cite:
o Checking the Steering Axis Inclination Angle
http://route66hotrodhigh.com/Inclination.html
Which says:
"To measure steering axis inclination, the method is identical to caster
measurement except that you use the steering axis inclination guage [sic]
which is at a 90 deg angle to the caster gauge. The wheel is turned 20 deg
inward. The steering axis inclination gauge is centered for 0 deg caster.
There is an adjustment screw on the back of the gauge that allows you to
set it for 0 deg. The wheel is then turned to 20 deg outward for a total
movement of 40 degrees. The steering axis inclination angle is read off the
gauge."

The key question is where to get that SIA gauge, which, apparently, can be
replaced with a normal magnetic caster gauge according to this patent:
o Device & method for measuring SAI on a steerable wheel (#4,546,548)
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4546548.pdf

In short, if we're aligning a vehicle that we own and drive often, then we
don't have any reason to suspect SIA changes (which will only occur with
bent or worn parts), and hence, they aren't part of what typically changes
(which is caster, camber, and toe).
https://www.motor.com/magazinepdfs/062002_05.pdf

about type of use instead. If it is all city and suburban driving, tyre
wear on the outside of the tread can be considered 100% normal.

On this mountain, everyone wears tires sooner than people who drive in
flatland do, where there is just "something" horrific about five miles of
steep driving,

Steep driving, urban driving, same thing really. You are at a greater
lock more often, even at slow speed, than when you are out on the
highways and freeways.

Most seem to wear on the outside edge, which I still haven't figured out
exactly why.

The term is Camber Scrub, and it caused a particular type of feathered
wear (for and aft feather IIRC) on the outside of the tyre, but it isn't
caused by the *camber angle* per se. It is caused by what SAI does to
the camber angles in a turn. Here is a video clip describing *one* of
the reasons for SAI.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZLiP_37Oso

The narrator focuses on the need to reduce unwanted feedback through the
steering. No mention is made of the other major reasons for SAI and that
is steering self centering and torque steer reduction. There are a
number of factors involved in steering stability and self centering
including; SAI, Caster, Camber, mechanical trail and tyre trail.

In this video clip he mentions the self centering effect at the end. He
states that turning the steering forces the axle (and wheel) down and,
in effect, lifts the front of the car. That provides the self centering
effect as the weight of the car will tend to return the steering to its
central or straight ahead position. That downward force also creates a
change in the *camber angle*.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUcZ63unEyU

But it is the camber angle the wheel adopts when at the turn position,
caused by SAI, that causes *camber scrub*.

This clip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbReLNi2JP4 provides a very
good description of the steering functions. Skip to 13:50 for a
graphical display of the camber angle change when turning.

The road is about 5 miles at about a 9 percent angle with very
many 180 degree and even 270 degree switchbacks, but the speeds are rather
slow, where the road is too narrow to even have panted centerlines and
where the nominal speed limit for such roads is 25mph.

Definitely camber scrub territory.

Given nobody drives 25 mph anywhere, we can figure it's something like 30
mph to 40 mph top speed but there's a lot of braking in between. Me? I just
put the tranny in neutral and roll down the entire five miles by giving up
potential energy, where I only brake when I must and I take the turns very
wide (as most people do) which helps maintain speed.

Somehow, _that_ process (which most people do, I think, but in gear most
likely), wears tires out like you can't believe, where tires get half the
stated mileage, as far as I can tell by aggregate conversations.

Do the same distance on straight roads and you will have fairly even
tyre wear.

Turn the wheels to a high level of lock and the obvious will confront
you. The type of feathering will tell you what the actual cause is.

I do admit that I can't 'read' a tire very well. I've tried, but rotations
screw up the readings, and certainly there can be multiple causes.

It takes practice and, since I haven't operated a wheel aligner for a
very long time, I am *out of practice* but I've had the priciples
hammered into me over the decades ably assisted by having taught the
principles for some 20 years.

The type of feathering I mostly see is the kind you can feel after only
about 1000 miles on the outside edge, for about 3 inches of tread, where
there is a sharp lip that is feathered into that outside tread that you can
only feel moving your hand clockwise over the front tire tread on the
outside 3 inches.

That sounds like camber scrub feathering - if I'm reading your
description correctly.

I need to learn more, but I think that's "normal" since it happens even
after I get a professional alignment. I'm due for one soon for a couple of

A *professional alignment* cannot fix a *symptom* that is considered
*normal* for the kind of driving you do. Any changes made to mitigate
camber scrub will cause a reduction in handling capability at speed.

cars, which is why, instead of paying the $150 per vehicle, which for the 3
cars I want to do first, will be almost five hundred bucks, I'd rather buy
the tools to do it myself for that same five hundred bucks.
o Caster gauge (to measure caster & calculate camber)
o Caster jig (to lock onto the wheel for the caster gauge to be accurate)
o Wheel plates (to move the wheels for adjustment under suspension loading)
o Toe plates (to enable single-person linear measurement to centerline)

After having discussed this with Clare in the past, I know we can redneck
some of that, but overall, those four items seem to be the key items needed
for a home DIY check/change of caster, camber, & toe, do you agree?

Yes, that is basically all the small service station had next door to
where I did my apprenticeship. You have missed the primary requisite
however - a guaranteed dead flat and level garage floor. Also a lock to
lock the steering wheel to the desired centre position;
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/sJIAA...58p/s-l225.jpg



--

Xeno


Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On Thu, 13 Jun 2019 04:32:45 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder"
wrote:

On Wed, 12 Jun 2019 21:37:49 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote:

Yes and no. The smaller tire has less total mass so a small amount
of weight has more effect than it would on a bigger tire - but it is
not as far from the center (shorter moment arm) so it has less effect.

Thanks Clare as I never mounted and balanced a tire so fast on purpose, not
even taking time to clean the wheel or even remove the old weights until
AFTER I put it on the static balance stand.

These tires are Lexani LXTR 203 model tires, of size P185/65R14 with load
range 86 and speed range H (traction A, temperature A, and treadwear 500),
where I don't know WHAT specific thing makes these so easy to balance, but
they're so easy that something is very different.

I was surprised that I skipped a bunch of steps, and yet, the wheel _still_
didn't cause any perceptible vibration, according to the driver, even as
it's a front wheel drive vehicle with the tire being the driver side front
tire.

I had told the owner to take it to Costco for the $5 wheel balancing, but
that wasn't even necessary, even as I skipped a bunch of balancing steps.

The old tires on her car were model "Grand Prix" of size P185/65R14 load
range 86 and speed of T (traction A, temperature B, and treadwear 500)
which seem to be wearing on both edges, where here are the front two tires
of this FWD vehicle with the tires set up in the appropriate position.
https://i.postimg.cc/JzvTyjKg/mount18.jpg

I had previously replaced her passenger front tire due to this gouge
https://i.postimg.cc/4dTBPZDQ/mount19.jpg

Running the dang things half flat or cornering like an idiot - - -

Where the driver front tire wore into the steel belts which jutted out
https://i.postimg.cc/85Bwn9DQ/mount20.jpg

Driving on tires like that should be criminal

She needed to be somewhere so I was in such a rush, that I didn't even
_see_ the yellow (weight) dot when I mounted the valve stem to the red
(uniformity) dot:
https://i.postimg.cc/7L8HPbtb/mount16.jpg

Where I only noticed the yellow dot when I looked at this picture!
https://i.postimg.cc/kG1M7cLd/mount15.jpg

Back to how easy it was to statically balance these tires, not only did
this tiny car have the only four-lug wheel I've ever worked on, but popping
the first bead of this tiny 14-inch P185 tire was so simple that it took
only a couple of pumps and about triple that to break the second bead.

Removing the third bead and fourth bead was, likewise, surprisingly simple.
Popping on the fifth bead was almost entirely done by hand, it was that
easy, where only the sixth bead took any effort whatsoever that required a
force that any teenager could exert.

With two wheel weights already on the rim, and by match mounting the red
dot (I didn't even _see_ that yellow dot until I looked at the picture
afterward), the balance was spot on in the middle of the bubble level.

So I didn't even remove the _old_ wheel weights, which I normally would
have done as part of the wheel prep after breaking the bead and removing
the old tire. I didn't even replace the valve stem, as I recently used up
the four valve stems I had bought after speaking to you about getting the
bolt-in kind so I didn't have any available.

The tires have been waiting for her outside in the mud and rain, so I
simply bounced and blew out the leaves and crud where I would have cleaned
the tires more had I more time, where I might have noticed that yellow dot
which was slightly worn away from being outside all winter.

GOOD tires of any size are easier to ballance than crappy tires. Ealy
Hankooks were a real pain to ballance. Apparentlythey have gotten
better.

Funny you mention the Hankook's where I just snapped this for you!
https://i.postimg.cc/zGVtXxwK/mount17.jpg

Those are Hancook Optimo H724 model tires of size P225/75R15, with the load
range of 102 and speed range of S (traction A, temperature B, and treadwear
500), which were MUCH HARDER to mount and dismount and harder to balance
too, it seems.

I'm planning on mounting and balancing them this weekend on an SUV which
keeps wearing out the front tires which I have to get alignment tools to
check the camber mostly since they're wearing on the outside edge.

When I mount those thick-sided Hancooks, on steel wheels, I will mount by
the _yellow_ (minimum weight) dot for the first time, instead of by the red
(maximum runout) dot, as I recall you recommended for when there's no match
mounting mark on the rims.

Thanks for being helpful where you're just about the only guy on this
newsgroup who knows anything about this subject matter, which I greatly
appreciate your advice, and where I try to remember it all over the years,
where I'm starting to lose count of how many tires I've done in the past
five years with the crappy Harbor Freight tools (they work, but they suck).

On Thu, 13 Jun 2019 11:45:55 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote:

Running the dang things half flat or cornering like an idiot

Hi Clare,

Thanks for that advice, as I am "trying" to "read" the story of tires, but
I'm not doing well as most of it is cryptic to me, while it might be
obvious to you - so I appreciate any insight you can give on how you read
tire wear.

I agree with you that it's unusual for a gouge that big that the treads
were visible underneath, as shown below...
https://i.postimg.cc/hjgtsc3Z/mount21.jpg
and where the tire finally just deflated in split second while she was
pulling out of her driveway.
https://i.postimg.cc/4dTBPZDQ/mount19.jpg

Driving on tires like that should be criminal

I have two more tires to put on for her for her rears, which are worn more
evenly (she probably doesn't rotate?) so I told her to wait until she
needed them since they are just sitting outside (I moved them into the
garage as they were getting dirty in the rain over the winter).

I have never owned a FWD vehicle so I'm not sure yet how the wear patterns
differ, but this set of tires seems to be worn on both outside edges with
the actual edge being hit the hardest.
https://i.postimg.cc/RCRdRMWd/mount22.jpg

On Thu, 13 Jun 2019 20:28:06 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder"
wrote:

On Thu, 13 Jun 2019 11:45:55 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote:

Running the dang things half flat or cornering like an idiot

Hi Clare,

Thanks for that advice, as I am "trying" to "read" the story of tires, but
I'm not doing well as most of it is cryptic to me, while it might be
obvious to you - so I appreciate any insight you can give on how you read
tire wear.

I agree with you that it's unusual for a gouge that big that the treads
were visible underneath, as shown below...
https://i.postimg.cc/hjgtsc3Z/mount21.jpg
and where the tire finally just deflated in split second while she was
pulling out of her driveway.
https://i.postimg.cc/4dTBPZDQ/mount19.jpg

Driving on tires like that should be criminal

I have two more tires to put on for her for her rears, which are worn more
evenly (she probably doesn't rotate?) so I told her to wait until she
needed them since they are just sitting outside (I moved them into the
garage as they were getting dirty in the rain over the winter).

I have never owned a FWD vehicle so I'm not sure yet how the wear patterns
differ, but this set of tires seems to be worn on both outside edges with
the actual edge being hit the hardest.
https://i.postimg.cc/RCRdRMWd/mount22.jpg
I always try to run my front tires aver placard pressure by a few
pounds - ESPECIALLY on front wheel drive vehicles that will be
cornered hard (basically anything I drive except for the baby Fiat I'm
currently (babysitting) driving - which is a rear engine rear drive
swing axle car with bad rear shocks - - -

Arlen G. Holder posted for all of us...



I have two more tires to put on for her for her rears, which are worn more
evenly (she probably doesn't rotate?) so I told her to wait until she
needed them since they are just sitting outside (I moved them into the
garage as they were getting dirty in the rain over the winter).


The better tires should-by tire manufacturers recommendation-be mounted on
the back.

--
Tekkie

Clare Snyder posted for all of us...



Running the dang things half flat or cornering like an idiot - - -


Looked to me to be major under-inflation.

--
Tekkie

Clare Snyder posted for all of us...



On Wed, 12 Jun 2019 05:52:33 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder"
wrote:

Clare - are smaller car tires easier to balance than SUV tires?
https://i.postimg.cc/kG1M7cLd/mount15.jpg

A neighbor was in need of tires who knew that I had bought a few extra for
her long ago where they've been sitting outside in the rain & mud for
months waiting for her to need them.
https://i.postimg.cc/7L8HPbtb/mount16.jpg

She finally wore through the belts and had to stop over for an "emergency"
tire change, which I did for her, but she was in a rush so we did it in
about 20 minutes from start to finish.

I had to do it so fast that I didn't see the yellow dot until I looked at
this picture, where I mounted the red dot to the valve stem instead of the
yellow dot as you had recommended for when there are no match mounting
marks.

I did statically balance and she reported no vibration whatsoever. I didn't
spend a lot of time cleaning up things so I'm surprised there's no
imbalance given how quickly I did the job for her.

Just wondering if you've found that these tiny 14-inch tires are a piece of
cake compared to the normal truck SUV tires (like the Optimo's that I'm
used to) both in terms of mounting and balancing?


Yes and no. The smaller tire has less total mass so a small amount
of weight has more effect than it would on a bigger tire - but it is
not as far from the center (shorter moment arm) so it has less effect.

GOOD tires of any size are easier to ballance than crappy tires. Ealy
Hankooks were a real pain to ballance. Apparentlythey have gotten
better.

I had a set of early Hankooks and could not get rid of the vibration. IIRC I
got Conti's with very good results.

--
Tekkie

On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 14:51:53 -0400, Tekkie®
wrote:

Clare Snyder posted for all of us...



On Wed, 12 Jun 2019 05:52:33 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder"
wrote:

Clare - are smaller car tires easier to balance than SUV tires?
https://i.postimg.cc/kG1M7cLd/mount15.jpg

A neighbor was in need of tires who knew that I had bought a few extra for
her long ago where they've been sitting outside in the rain & mud for
months waiting for her to need them.
https://i.postimg.cc/7L8HPbtb/mount16.jpg

She finally wore through the belts and had to stop over for an "emergency"
tire change, which I did for her, but she was in a rush so we did it in
about 20 minutes from start to finish.

I had to do it so fast that I didn't see the yellow dot until I looked at
this picture, where I mounted the red dot to the valve stem instead of the
yellow dot as you had recommended for when there are no match mounting
marks.

I did statically balance and she reported no vibration whatsoever. I didn't
spend a lot of time cleaning up things so I'm surprised there's no
imbalance given how quickly I did the job for her.

Just wondering if you've found that these tiny 14-inch tires are a piece of
cake compared to the normal truck SUV tires (like the Optimo's that I'm
used to) both in terms of mounting and balancing?


Yes and no. The smaller tire has less total mass so a small amount
of weight has more effect than it would on a bigger tire - but it is
not as far from the center (shorter moment arm) so it has less effect.

GOOD tires of any size are easier to ballance than crappy tires. Ealy
Hankooks were a real pain to ballance. Apparentlythey have gotten
better.

I had a set of early Hankooks and could not get rid of the vibration. IIRC I
got Conti's with very good results.
Could never figure out exactly how many corners Hankook figured
there were in a circle - - - -

Clare Snyder posted for all of us...



On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 14:51:53 -0400, Tekkie®
wrote:

Clare Snyder posted for all of us...



On Wed, 12 Jun 2019 05:52:33 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder"
wrote:

Clare - are smaller car tires easier to balance than SUV tires?
https://i.postimg.cc/kG1M7cLd/mount15.jpg

A neighbor was in need of tires who knew that I had bought a few extra for
her long ago where they've been sitting outside in the rain & mud for
months waiting for her to need them.
https://i.postimg.cc/7L8HPbtb/mount16.jpg

She finally wore through the belts and had to stop over for an "emergency"
tire change, which I did for her, but she was in a rush so we did it in
about 20 minutes from start to finish.

I had to do it so fast that I didn't see the yellow dot until I looked at
this picture, where I mounted the red dot to the valve stem instead of the
yellow dot as you had recommended for when there are no match mounting
marks.

I did statically balance and she reported no vibration whatsoever. I didn't
spend a lot of time cleaning up things so I'm surprised there's no
imbalance given how quickly I did the job for her.

Just wondering if you've found that these tiny 14-inch tires are a piece of
cake compared to the normal truck SUV tires (like the Optimo's that I'm
used to) both in terms of mounting and balancing?


Yes and no. The smaller tire has less total mass so a small amount
of weight has more effect than it would on a bigger tire - but it is
not as far from the center (shorter moment arm) so it has less effect.

GOOD tires of any size are easier to ballance than crappy tires. Ealy
Hankooks were a real pain to ballance. Apparentlythey have gotten
better.

I had a set of early Hankooks and could not get rid of the vibration. IIRC I
got Conti's with very good results.
Could never figure out exactly how many corners Hankook figured
there were in a circle - - - -

Good one!

--
Tekkie