So much for tough talk and bravado, diplomacy is the proper approach
with the DPRK.


U.S. Test of Missile Interceptor Fails Off Hawaiian Coast, Officials
Say

The New York Times http://tinyurl.com/y8ytbuog





--
"In matters of conscience, the law of the majority has no place."

"Truth Sounds Like Hate To Those Who Hate The Truth"

On Thu, 1 Feb 2018 01:01:19 +0000 (UTC), "Dove Tail"
wrote:

So much for tough talk and bravado, diplomacy is the proper approach
with the DPRK.

Yeah that diplomacy has worked so great up until now. 65 years later
and a state of war still exists between us. In that 65 years they have
gone from a country that could not even make their own rifles to an
intercontinental nuclear power. Way to go diplomats!

trader_4 wrote:

We need a crash missile defense program. That would not only shield
us, but also put the fear of God into the Chinese.


Once again you are worshipping at the altar of the god of technology.

"A crash missile defense program?", exactly what technologies exist
that are not currently in use? What technologies do you feel can be
improved or invented? What basis do you have for your beliefs? How
much money do you expect to expend on this crash program? When will
your crash program produce a 100% effective and deployable weapon?

You can pray to the gods of technology, but without tangible science,
technology and engineering, your missile defense prayers are about as
valuable as your religious prayers.




--
"In matters of conscience, the law of the majority has no place."

"Truth Sounds Like Hate To Those Who Hate The Truth"

On Thursday, February 1, 2018 at 9:27:50 AM UTC-5, Dove Tail wrote:
trader_4 wrote:

We need a crash missile defense program. That would not only shield
us, but also put the fear of God into the Chinese.


Once again you are worshipping at the altar of the god of technology.

"A crash missile defense program?", exactly what technologies exist
that are not currently in use? What technologies do you feel can be
improved or invented? What basis do you have for your beliefs? How
much money do you expect to expend on this crash program? When will
your crash program produce a 100% effective and deployable weapon?

Apparently you are blind to how technology and systems evolve. Did
we go to the moon with the first rocket? Have 200mBits/sec data
speeds on the first cell phones? No, but we got there by continuing
to work on it. The same applies to the missile defense systems.
And to not be putting a crash program in place is the worst betrayal
of American security in history. We are on our way to another potential
Pearl Harbor. Which, BTW, is a perfect example! We had rudimentary
radar that was just beginning to be deployed. Had more development
been done, had we been just maybe one year further along, Pearl Harbor
could have been prevented.

And meanwhile, a crash program would immediately put tremendous pressure
on China. Just like SDI scared the **** out of the Russians, this will
pressure the Chinese to get rid of KJU.




You can pray to the gods of technology, but without tangible science,
technology and engineering, your missile defense prayers are about as
valuable as your religious prayers.


Are you blind? We have tangible science. It's not an issue of science,
more of engineering at this point. The system that just failed,
the previous test worked. We had one success out of 3. We've had
mixed success with other missile defense systems. What was the
success rate of our first rocket programs? Following your logic, we
should have just thrown up our hands, it will never work, the tech isn't
there. Instead with a crash program in a decade we went from total
failure to the moon landing! Why do you libs always sell America short?

trader_4 wrote:

Apparently you are blind to how technology and systems evolve.


Trader, rather than see you continue to embarrass yourself on the topic
of missile defense, here is an essay from Brookings on the limits of
U.S. missile defense.


Read and learn:

https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/t...ssile-defense/





--
"In matters of conscience, the law of the majority has no place."

"Truth Sounds Like Hate To Those Who Hate The Truth"

On Thursday, February 1, 2018 at 10:16:41 AM UTC-5, Dove Tail wrote:
trader_4 wrote:

Apparently you are blind to how technology and systems evolve.


Trader, rather than see you continue to embarrass yourself on the topic
of missile defense, here is an essay from Brookings on the limits of
U.S. missile defense.


Read and learn:

https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/t...ssile-defense/





--
"In matters of conscience, the law of the majority has no place."

"Truth Sounds Like Hate To Those Who Hate The Truth"

When you have a link that shows diplomacy with NK has worked, then
I'll be interested. The fact is we have rudimentary missile defense
systems already deployed? Is the pentagon stupid? With more funding
we can accelerate the development. Why do you libs want to leave
America vulnerable to an attack? I notice you didn't comment on the
Pearl Harbor example. It's very similar. Radar was in it's early
prototype stage. We had just put an installation in Hawaii. It
actually picked up the planes, but it being new, the system was not
in place to correctly interpret and act what it showed. Imagine that
development had been accelerated by a couple years, that better radar
had been deployed, that it was in regular use, that we had experience
with it, etc. Why do libs always want to repeat the mistakes of the
past? You reject defense and instead salute caving in to NK, sending
them a cake, hoping for the best. How well did diplomacy work with
Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Saddam Hussein?

wrote:

Yeah that diplomacy has worked so great up until now.

It might juice up your diminished testosterone to bluster about making
a preemptive first, "bloody nose", strike against the DPRK, but the
reality is, the DPRK will make at least one smoking hole in the ground
on US territory, most likely killing hundreds of thousands if not
millions of Americans, not to mention the likely casualties in Japan
and the ROK.

If Trump and his people aren't capable of dealing diplomatically with
the DPRK, they should leave and turn it over to people who are capable.

Nuclear war is simply not an acceptable option, regardless of Trump's
low testosterone.


--
"In matters of conscience, the law of the majority has no place."

"Truth Sounds Like Hate To Those Who Hate The Truth"

On Thursday, February 1, 2018 at 11:28:56 AM UTC-5, Dove Tail wrote:
wrote:

Yeah that diplomacy has worked so great up until now.

It might juice up your diminished testosterone to bluster about making
a preemptive first, "bloody nose", strike against the DPRK, but the
reality is, the DPRK will make at least one smoking hole in the ground
on US territory, most likely killing hundreds of thousands if not
millions of Americans, not to mention the likely casualties in Japan
and the ROK.

If Trump and his people aren't capable of dealing diplomatically with
the DPRK, they should leave and turn it over to people who are capable.

Like who? Jimmy Carter? He went over there and negotiated a deal where
we gave them food and oil, promised them nuclear reactors, and they
promised not to develop nukes. NK cheated on that deal from day one.

Madeline Albright? She went over there and wound up a their big stadium
in the middle of an event to praise the brutal communist regime and
Dear Leader. ROFL. Never saw that happen with George Schultz or
Jim Baker.

After all the "diplomacy" all the "negotiating", NK has ICBMs and Nukes!

And now you salute SK undermining all the pressure that's finally being
put on NK by honoring them! While most of the world is isolating them,
SK is honoring them? Send them a cake! Send them oil. Send them food!
They'll come around, right? ROFL






Nuclear war is simply not an acceptable option, regardless of Trump's
low testosterone.



Why is it that we're now faced with the prospect of a nuclear war?
Because of all the lib "diplomacy" and cake sending. We could have
whacked them in 2008, when they first tested a nuke. We should
have been at the point we are at now, then. And if it was not resolved
in a year or two, put them out of the nuke and ICBM business for good.
And even now, instead of a crash missile defense program, we're sitting
here, exposed, waiting for another Pearl Harbor, another 9/11. Why
can't libs every learn?

On Thu, 1 Feb 2018 15:16:38 +0000 (UTC), "Dove Tail"
wrote:

trader_4 wrote:

Apparently you are blind to how technology and systems evolve.


Trader, rather than see you continue to embarrass yourself on the topic
of missile defense, here is an essay from Brookings on the limits of
U.S. missile defense.


Read and learn:

https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/t...ssile-defense/

The best missile defense, the one that kept the soviets at bay for 50
years, would be to publish a map of north korea with 192 475 kiloton
holes in it (the load from just one sub). The Destruction of each
would cover a couple hundred square miles (8 mile radius) That is
about half the total area of north korea, especially when you consider
the area between those blasts will not be a walk in the park on a
spring day.
.... from one sub that might be 5 minutes away. We also know our
missiles work.
Trump really does have a bigger button and it is not hard to convince
them he is nuts enough to push it.

trader_4 wrote:

After all the "diplomacy" all the "negotiating", NK has ICBMs and
Nukes



Yes, they do have nukes and delivery systems.

No, we do not have and there does not exist 100% reliable ABM
technology, even after spending $100+ billion trying to develop such
since the 1960's.

Yes, if we attack them, they will retaliate.

No, we cannot prevent every warhead from getting through.

No, there is no magical technology on the horizon, regardless of how
much money we spend.

Yes, there is a point of diminishing returns with regards to throwing
money at a problem.

No defense system has ever been perfect.

Yes, we can wipe them out, woo-hoo.

Yes, the Russians and Chinese will help them with technology to defeat
or evade our defense systems.

YES, diplomacy has been effective in preventing nuclear war, ever since
the Soviets detonated their first atomic weapon in 1949.

Yes, you can delude yourself into believing we can develop an
infallible defense shield, but, you have zero evidence to justify such
confidence.

Yes, it only takes one weapon getting through to kill hundreds of
thousands of Americans, Japanese, and or Koreans.




--
"In matters of conscience, the law of the majority has no place."

"Truth Sounds Like Hate To Those Who Hate The Truth"

On Thursday, February 1, 2018 at 12:35:47 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thu, 1 Feb 2018 15:16:38 +0000 (UTC), "Dove Tail"
wrote:

trader_4 wrote:

Apparently you are blind to how technology and systems evolve.


Trader, rather than see you continue to embarrass yourself on the topic
of missile defense, here is an essay from Brookings on the limits of
U.S. missile defense.


Read and learn:

https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/t...ssile-defense/

The best missile defense, the one that kept the soviets at bay for 50
years, would be to publish a map of north korea with 192 475 kiloton
holes in it (the load from just one sub). The Destruction of each
would cover a couple hundred square miles (8 mile radius) That is
about half the total area of north korea, especially when you consider
the area between those blasts will not be a walk in the park on a
spring day.
... from one sub that might be 5 minutes away. We also know our
missiles work.
Trump really does have a bigger button and it is not hard to convince
them he is nuts enough to push it.

You're making the serious mistake that all dictators are rational and
not willing to see their country destroyed and themselves dead. In
most cases it's true. But in others, it's not. Was Hitler rational?
Or more recently Saddam Hussein? A rational man would have just let
those UN inspectors do their job, cooperate, show that he had no WMD
programs. There was little Saddam had to give to comply and everything
to lose by not complying. Instead he chose the totally irrational,
nutty course of action, even with 300,000 coalition troops on the border
ready to invade. He sacrificed the country and himself. You're willing to
take that gamble with KJU, instead of mounting a crash program on
missile defense. And even if KJU is somewhat rational, he could very
well believe that SK and the US will fold, that say 3 years from now,
he can demand reunification of SK under his terms, or else he'll launch
on LA, SF, NYC, DC. And then what? Cave? Call his bluff? Why should
we have to be in that position without a robust missile defense, instead
of with one? It really is that simple.

wrote:

On Thu, 1 Feb 2018 15:16:38 +0000 (UTC), "Dove Tail"
wrote:

trader_4 wrote:

Apparently you are blind to how technology and systems evolve.


Trader, rather than see you continue to embarrass yourself on the
topic of missile defense, here is an essay from Brookings on the
limits of U.S. missile defense.


Read and learn:


https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/t...ssile-defense/

The best missile defense, the one that kept the soviets at bay for 50
years, would be to publish a map of north korea with 192 475 kiloton
holes in it (the load from just one sub). The Destruction of each
would cover a couple hundred square miles (8 mile radius) That is
about half the total area of north korea, especially when you consider
the area between those blasts will not be a walk in the park on a
spring day.
... from one sub that might be 5 minutes away. We also know our
missiles work.
Trump really does have a bigger button and it is not hard to convince
them he is nuts enough to push it.


Brilliant #1, you think a map, a drawing would keep the DPRK at bay?

Brilliant #2, to hell with the nuclear winter which would impact the
planet not to mention the massive amounts of nuclear fallout which
would contaminate North America not to mention the the rest of the
Earth.





--
"In matters of conscience, the law of the majority has no place."

"Truth Sounds Like Hate To Those Who Hate The Truth"

On Thu, 1 Feb 2018 17:52:19 +0000 (UTC), "Dove Tail"
wrote:

YES, diplomacy has been effective in preventing nuclear war, ever since
the Soviets detonated their first atomic weapon in 1949.

It was not diplomacy that deterred the Soviets. It was the very real
knowledge that they would be totally destroyed in a nuclear exchange
even if they did the same to us. Any two of our boomers could lay
waste to every square inch of North Korea, not just damaged, totally
destroyed with virtually 100% casualties. That is 384 475 kiloton
warheads 12 per missile 16 missiles per sub. There would not be a spot
in the entire country that would not either be in the fire ball or
sustain F5 tornado winds from the blast. If the blast didn't get them
the radiation would.
Of course we would never actually fire that many but just one MIRVed
Trident could wipe out 12 cities if they were close enough together.
We also have other options that are not that destructive but kill by
radiation alone. Somebody needs to convince Kim that he is entering
into a situation from which he will not succeed and that is probably
going to be the chinese.

OTOH I would say, reunifying Korea might be the best option. Kim is
not going to be able to "reeducate" 51 million south koreans and they
will quickly reveal the lies he has told the people of the north. We
only have to look at Vietnam to see that in action. If you don't think
capitalism will win out in the end, turn over a wooden table at a
furniture store and see where it was made.
China is complaining that Vietnam is cutting into their markets and
displacing their workers. They are probably the ones fighting
reunification the hardest.
Imagine the capitalists in south korea with the cheap labor force of
the north at their disposal. That is pretty much what happened to
Vietnam and their technology at the time was only what the Americans
left behind. They did not have anything like Samsung, LG or
Hyundai/Kia.
It may be why the Americans are not looking very hard for a peaceful
solution either.

On Thu, 1 Feb 2018 18:04:12 +0000 (UTC), "Dove Tail"
wrote:

wrote:

On Thu, 1 Feb 2018 15:16:38 +0000 (UTC), "Dove Tail"
wrote:

trader_4 wrote:

Apparently you are blind to how technology and systems evolve.


Trader, rather than see you continue to embarrass yourself on the
topic of missile defense, here is an essay from Brookings on the
limits of U.S. missile defense.


Read and learn:


https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/t...ssile-defense/

The best missile defense, the one that kept the soviets at bay for 50
years, would be to publish a map of north korea with 192 475 kiloton
holes in it (the load from just one sub). The Destruction of each
would cover a couple hundred square miles (8 mile radius) That is
about half the total area of north korea, especially when you consider
the area between those blasts will not be a walk in the park on a
spring day.
... from one sub that might be 5 minutes away. We also know our
missiles work.
Trump really does have a bigger button and it is not hard to convince
them he is nuts enough to push it.


Brilliant #1, you think a map, a drawing would keep the DPRK at bay?

It worked with the soviets for almost 60 years

Brilliant #2, to hell with the nuclear winter which would impact the
planet not to mention the massive amounts of nuclear fallout which
would contaminate North America not to mention the the rest of the
Earth.

We could stop worrying about that ****ing global warming that you
folks think is the #1 problem facing mankind.

wrote:

It was not diplomacy that deterred the Soviets.

Rubbish, diplomacy played a very big role is avoiding a nuclear
exchange with the Soviets. The Cuban missile crisis of 1962 was
resolved through diplomacy.

There were countless other examples during the cold war of diplomacy
defusing tensions.


Apparently, we need to establish a baseline definition for the word:

Noun: diplomacy
1. Negotiation between nations
2. Subtly skillful handling of a situation
3. Wisdom in the management of public affairs



--
"In matters of conscience, the law of the majority has no place."

"Truth Sounds Like Hate To Those Who Hate The Truth"

wrote:

Brilliant #2, to hell with the nuclear winter which would impact the
planet not to mention the massive amounts of nuclear fallout which
would contaminate North America not to mention the the rest of the
Earth.

We could stop worrying about that ****ing global warming that you
folks think is the #1 problem facing mankind.



Actually, right now, I am firmly convinced that Donald Trump and the
emergence of fascism in the United States is the number one problem
facing mankind.

However, I am glad to see you are looking for solutions to global
warming, even if they involve genocide, nuclear winter and radioactive
poisoning of the entire planet. Sigh.




--
"In matters of conscience, the law of the majority has no place."

"Truth Sounds Like Hate To Those Who Hate The Truth"

On Thursday, February 1, 2018 at 1:35:59 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Thu, 1 Feb 2018 18:04:12 +0000 (UTC), "Dove Tail"
wrote:

wrote:

On Thu, 1 Feb 2018 15:16:38 +0000 (UTC), "Dove Tail"
wrote:

trader_4 wrote:

Apparently you are blind to how technology and systems evolve.


Trader, rather than see you continue to embarrass yourself on the
topic of missile defense, here is an essay from Brookings on the
limits of U.S. missile defense.


Read and learn:


https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/t...ssile-defense/

The best missile defense, the one that kept the soviets at bay for 50
years, would be to publish a map of north korea with 192 475 kiloton
holes in it (the load from just one sub). The Destruction of each
would cover a couple hundred square miles (8 mile radius) That is
about half the total area of north korea, especially when you consider
the area between those blasts will not be a walk in the park on a
spring day.
... from one sub that might be 5 minutes away. We also know our
missiles work.
Trump really does have a bigger button and it is not hard to convince
them he is nuts enough to push it.


Brilliant #1, you think a map, a drawing would keep the DPRK at bay?

It worked with the soviets for almost 60 years

Brilliant #2, to hell with the nuclear winter which would impact the
planet not to mention the massive amounts of nuclear fallout which
would contaminate North America not to mention the the rest of the
Earth.

We could stop worrying about that ****ing global warming that you
folks think is the #1 problem facing mankind.


Liberal Leftist Cloud Huggers are so arrogant that they believe mankind can control the climate of Planet Earth. All they have to do is adjust the output of The Sun. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Climate Monster

On Thu, 1 Feb 2018 19:43:47 +0000 (UTC), "Dove Tail"
wrote:

wrote:

Brilliant #2, to hell with the nuclear winter which would impact the
planet not to mention the massive amounts of nuclear fallout which
would contaminate North America not to mention the the rest of the
Earth.

We could stop worrying about that ****ing global warming that you
folks think is the #1 problem facing mankind.



Actually, right now, I am firmly convinced that Donald Trump and the
emergence of fascism in the United States is the number one problem
facing mankind.

However, I am glad to see you are looking for solutions to global
warming, even if they involve genocide, nuclear winter and radioactive
poisoning of the entire planet. Sigh.

The only real cure for CO2 rise is scrubbing a few billion off the
population since CO2 levels follow population as close as any other
metric.
Throwing another hummer into the volcano is not going to help, unless
that volcano is erupting anyway.

On Thursday, February 1, 2018 at 9:18:18 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Thu, 1 Feb 2018 19:43:47 +0000 (UTC), "Dove Tail"
wrote:

wrote:

Brilliant #2, to hell with the nuclear winter which would impact the
planet not to mention the massive amounts of nuclear fallout which
would contaminate North America not to mention the the rest of the
Earth.

We could stop worrying about that ****ing global warming that you
folks think is the #1 problem facing mankind.



Actually, right now, I am firmly convinced that Donald Trump and the
emergence of fascism in the United States is the number one problem
facing mankind.

However, I am glad to see you are looking for solutions to global
warming, even if they involve genocide, nuclear winter and radioactive
poisoning of the entire planet. Sigh.

The only real cure for CO2 rise is scrubbing a few billion off the
population since CO2 levels follow population as close as any other
metric.
Throwing another hummer into the volcano is not going to help, unless
that volcano is erupting anyway.


Soylent Green production should solve the problem. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Green Monster

On Thu, 1 Feb 2018 19:38:34 +0000 (UTC), "Dove Tail"
wrote:

wrote:

It was not diplomacy that deterred the Soviets.

Rubbish, diplomacy played a very big role is avoiding a nuclear
exchange with the Soviets. The Cuban missile crisis of 1962 was
resolved through diplomacy.

If you are complaining about a rock star president who is driven more
by arrogance than good sense you really do not want to bring up JFK.
The Cuban ":crisis" was totally preventable, long before the first
missile shipped from the Soviet Union. When it was all over, we ended
up exactly where we would have been if we did what the Soviets
demanded in 61. We pulled our missiles out of Turkey. We just had to
take the world to the brink of disaster to massage JFKs ego.