On Monday, December 11, 2017 at 8:38:34 AM UTC-5, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 11 Dec 2017 02:14:09 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Sunday, December 10, 2017 at 6:17:44 PM UTC-5, pjp wrote:
In article ,
says...

I was told that there is a manual auto repair shops look up to find the
number of shop hours they charge for a job.

To be fair, I'm told they all charge that many hours even if it doesn't
take that many hours.

For example if three jobs are done, and even if they associate with each
other, they just add up the shop hours and then charge by the $200/hour
that the local shops all seem to charge for their shop rate.

Where can we car owners get that manual online?

I'd be surprised if any such page exists that would/could remain valid
for entire country. Too much "local" pressures etc.

What I dislike about their fixed cost repair arrangements is that if it
doesn't take that long we are giving them money for nothing but if it
takes longer you can be damn sure it's tacked onto the bill. And Yes I'm
sure if there's three separate repairs that they charge you for three
hours yet it's done in two saves you nothing but does put money in their
pocket for nothing.

Next new car I buy will be partially determined by my negotiating legal
requirement by them about markup on parts (100% no way), cost of repair
and labor.

Good luck with that. I'd like to be there to watch.

Me too.



they pay the mechanic approx. $25 Hr yet charges over $125
locally here. We are paying so management can drive a free car and owner
can generate equity in his company. neither of which makes the car any
better, e.g. last longer with fewer repairs required during it's
lifespan, for me.

Work at a dealer, you are not welcome in my house.

I would bet that mechanics at a dealer that's charging $125 an hour
are making more than $25. Then they also have all those service advisers.
The BMW dealer here has half a dozen, at least. I'll bet they are
commission, making sure to recommend the max service possible. They
have to get paid. I'm not too happy with the rates charged by the
stealership either, but I don't see much we can do about it. I used
to use a independent decades ago, when they were substantially less
both in labor rate and parts cost. But they jacked their rates up
to with $10 of the dealer hourly rate and they put the BMW part #
on the bill, God only knows if it's a real BMW part or aftermarket.
They used to use aftermarket and charge less. I concluded that since
the indy works on all kinds of cars, but charges almost the same as
the dealer, you're better off going to the dealer. Presumably the
mechanics there see more of your particular car, have more experience,
better diagnostics, etc. If they fix it in 3 hours instead of 4 or
5 at an indy, you wind up saving money.

But I thought both used the flat rate manual and both charged the same
number of hours.


Even if they do, the dealer charges more per hour. And AFAIK, no
indy is requied to us any flat rate manual. They can issue a quote
that says " $300 to fix xyz", or " 2 hours labor, plue $50 for part"
that's just based on their opinion, unless state law says otherwise.

Anyhow, 2 years ago after I replaced the right half-axle, right ball
joint, right rotor, and one other part, I took the car to the dealer for
wheel alignment, on the theory he could do the best job. He even had an
offer that made him as cheap as Firestone. (That alone should have made
me suspicious.) They told me that I needed right and left CV boots,
even though the right boot had only 50 miles on it, and the left boot
was perfect too. They said I had a major oil leak, even though I didn't
have to add any oil in the next 3000 miles. And they told me a bunch of
other crap they claimed needed repair.

Agree, I've seen the same thing, the one's I've seen have been from
dealerships.

On 12/11/2017 11:36 AM, trader_4 wrote:



Maybe. The Buick dealer tried to charge me a diagnostic fee to tell me
my heated seat did not work. Hey, that's why I came here and told you
what the problem was. They just built in a 1 hour diagnostic time for
every trip in. That and other problems made it the last GM car I ever
owned.

What do you think the minutes incurred actually are, including you calling
up, scheduling, then rolling the car into the shop, connecting the
diagnostic cable, running the tests? Those tests typically include
disconnect the seat cable and connect test cable XYZ. What voltage does
the test software now show. If it's under 12V, do this next procedure....
And on it goes. I have the test software for BMW and that is how it.
goes. I could easily spend a half hour diagnosing, following their
procedure. Then you still have all the other overhead.


About two minutes. I told him what the problem was, and exactly where
it burned out. just wanted to know how much to replace it. They took
it upon themselves if they "diagnosed" it. Turns out they don't replace
the element, but the whole seat bottom. For $672 I did without. In
addition, the warranty was 3 year 36000 and it failed in 2 years and
38000 so GM said tough crap. No problem, I bought 5 non-GM cars since
including the G80 I bought 6 weeks ago..

In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 11 Dec 2017 08:43:50 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, December 11, 2017 at 8:38:34 AM UTC-5, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 11 Dec 2017 02:14:09 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Sunday, December 10, 2017 at 6:17:44 PM UTC-5, pjp wrote:
In article ,
says...

I was told that there is a manual auto repair shops look up to find the
number of shop hours they charge for a job.

To be fair, I'm told they all charge that many hours even if it doesn't
take that many hours.

For example if three jobs are done, and even if they associate with each
other, they just add up the shop hours and then charge by the $200/hour
that the local shops all seem to charge for their shop rate.

Where can we car owners get that manual online?

I'd be surprised if any such page exists that would/could remain valid
for entire country. Too much "local" pressures etc.

What I dislike about their fixed cost repair arrangements is that if it
doesn't take that long we are giving them money for nothing but if it
takes longer you can be damn sure it's tacked onto the bill. And Yes I'm
sure if there's three separate repairs that they charge you for three
hours yet it's done in two saves you nothing but does put money in their
pocket for nothing.

Next new car I buy will be partially determined by my negotiating legal
requirement by them about markup on parts (100% no way), cost of repair
and labor.

Good luck with that. I'd like to be there to watch.

Me too.



they pay the mechanic approx. $25 Hr yet charges over $125
locally here. We are paying so management can drive a free car and owner
can generate equity in his company. neither of which makes the car any
better, e.g. last longer with fewer repairs required during it's
lifespan, for me.

Work at a dealer, you are not welcome in my house.

I would bet that mechanics at a dealer that's charging $125 an hour
are making more than $25. Then they also have all those service advisers.
The BMW dealer here has half a dozen, at least. I'll bet they are
commission, making sure to recommend the max service possible. They
have to get paid. I'm not too happy with the rates charged by the
stealership either, but I don't see much we can do about it. I used
to use a independent decades ago, when they were substantially less
both in labor rate and parts cost. But they jacked their rates up
to with $10 of the dealer hourly rate and they put the BMW part #
on the bill, God only knows if it's a real BMW part or aftermarket.
They used to use aftermarket and charge less. I concluded that since
the indy works on all kinds of cars, but charges almost the same as
the dealer, you're better off going to the dealer. Presumably the
mechanics there see more of your particular car, have more experience,
better diagnostics, etc. If they fix it in 3 hours instead of 4 or
5 at an indy, you wind up saving money.

But I thought both used the flat rate manual and both charged the same
number of hours.


Even if they do, the dealer charges more per hour. And AFAIK, no
indy is requied to us any flat rate manual. They can issue a quote
that says " $300 to fix xyz", or " 2 hours labor, plue $50 for part"
that's just based on their opinion, unless state law says otherwise.

I think you're right on all this. A lot of their success is probabably
based on how affable they are. A lot of customers, including me, like
people who smile, have a friendly, comfortable way of talking, and other
stuff not really related to how much they know about cars or how well
they can work. I try to ignore that.

The place I had the second car inspected, also affable, is only a tenth
of a mile farther away from me, 2 miles, and it's in the woods, pretty
much. Last time I waited for the brakes it had been raining, but next
time I might be able to sit and read, or nap, in the woods, and that's
an advantage.

Anyhow, 2 years ago after I replaced the right half-axle, right ball
joint, right rotor, and one other part, I took the car to the dealer for
wheel alignment, on the theory he could do the best job. He even had an
offer that made him as cheap as Firestone. (That alone should have made
me suspicious.) They told me that I needed right and left CV boots,
even though the right boot had only 50 miles on it, and the left boot
was perfect too. They said I had a major oil leak, even though I didn't
have to add any oil in the next 3000 miles. And they told me a bunch of
other crap they claimed needed repair.

Agree, I've seen the same thing, the one's I've seen have been from
dealerships.

yeah.

In alt.home.repair, on 11 Dec 2017 09:50:19 -0500,
(Scott Dorsey) wrote:

micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 10 Dec 2017 19:17:24 -0400, pjp
wrote:

What I dislike about their fixed cost repair arrangements is that if it
doesn't take that long we are giving them money for nothing

I hate to bring up my blown engine again, but when I had my car towed
into the shop last summer, he charged me about $90 for diagnosing the
problem -- that's his standard rate -- even though I figure he knew what
the problem was in 1 minute, just based on the sound.

Presumably you get that $90 refunded when you get an engine rebuild, though.
--scott

It was 4500 for a used engine and 6500 for a rebuilt one. Not worth it,
and he knew it.

On 12/12/2017 8:04 PM, Wolf K wrote:
On 2017-12-12 17:07, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on 11 Dec 2017 09:50:19 -0500,
(Scott Dorsey) wrote:

mickyÂ* wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 10 Dec 2017 19:17:24 -0400, pjp
wrote:

What I dislike about their fixed cost repair arrangements is that
if it
doesn't take that long we are giving them money for nothing

I hate to bring up my blown engine again, but when I had my car towed
into the shop last summer, he charged me about $90 for diagnosing the
problem -- that's his standard rate -- even though I figure he knew
what
the problem was in 1 minute, just based on the sound.

Presumably you get that $90 refunded when you get an engine rebuild,
though.
--scott

It was 4500 for a used engine and 6500 for a rebuilt one.Â* Not worth it,
and he knew it.


That depends on how much additional transportation you buy. As my cars
age, I begin to think in terms of, for example, "this brake job will
cost $450, that's about two months of financing a new(er) car, so if I
get more than two months out of it, I'm money ahead." Which, as it
turned out, I was, because the car wasn't at the stage of bits and
pieces falling off it. :-)


Just to add a little perspective to this topic, 1953 to 1970 I was a
practicing Auto mechanic.
1960 to 1970 I owned my own business in a 2 car service station/garage.
Our labor rates were $6.50 per hour, Increased to $7.00 an hour in 1965
much to the crying and hollering of our customers.
I ran a strictly honest place and had an abundance of loyal customers.
Imperial Oil sold the property in 1970 and I left the auto trade.
Back then I could do a 4 wheel brake job (no extras or complications}
for the sum of $24.00 Shoes and labor On GM, Ford, Dodge or Plymouth.
I moved into the field of power Engineering till I retired in year 2000

Rene

On 12/12/2017 9:26 PM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:

1960 to 1970 I owned my own business in a 2 car service station/garage.
Our labor rates were $6.50 per hour, Increased to $7.00 an hour in 1965
much to the crying and hollering of our customers.
I ran a strictly honest place and had an abundance of loyal customers.
Imperial Oil sold the property in 1970 and I left the auto trade.
Back then I could do a 4 wheel brake job (no extras or complications}
for the sum of $24.00 Shoes and labor On GM, Ford, Dodge or Plymouth.

Things have not changed all that much. You can get 4 wheels none now
for as low as $500.

In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 12 Dec 2017 21:04:23 -0500, Wolf K
wrote:

On 2017-12-12 17:07, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on 11 Dec 2017 09:50:19 -0500,
(Scott Dorsey) wrote:

micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 10 Dec 2017 19:17:24 -0400, pjp
wrote:

What I dislike about their fixed cost repair arrangements is that if it
doesn't take that long we are giving them money for nothing

I hate to bring up my blown engine again, but when I had my car towed
into the shop last summer, he charged me about $90 for diagnosing the
problem -- that's his standard rate -- even though I figure he knew what
the problem was in 1 minute, just based on the sound.

Presumably you get that $90 refunded when you get an engine rebuild, though.
--scott

It was 4500 for a used engine and 6500 for a rebuilt one. Not worth it,
and he knew it.


That depends on how much additional transportation you buy. As my cars

I'm telling you all, it was not worth it and he knew it. And he said
from his pov, it wasn't worth it. It didn't depend on anything he
didn't know. It's not a 20,000 car, it was a $2800 car and a used
engine would have all the same chance of breaking that the first engine
did. He said the rebuilt engines were rebuilt with better parts than
the original, but it's still 6500. So it wasn't worth it and he knew
it.

age, I begin to think in terms of, for example, "this brake job will
cost $450, that's about two months of financing a new(er) car, so if I
get more than two months out of it, I'm money ahead." Which, as it
turned out, I was, because the car wasn't at the stage of bits and
pieces falling off it. :-)

Frank S
news GMT in alt.windows7.general, wrote:

I was told that there is a manual auto repair shops look up to
find the number of shop hours they charge for a job.

It's not a manual per say. It's the cost/quote/job bids/expected
billable hours modules present in atleast two software packages I
know of that provide automechanics intimate details on your
car/truck/suv so that they can make repairs the right way. The
software database information is provided by the various
manufacturers of your ride, so that the repairs are proper and right
for your make/model.

I have alldata and Mitchell myself; which is what most of the shops
use (one or both) to work on your car and properly diagnose issues.
It also tells them how much time each job they need to perform on
your car should take. Billable hours, that is.

Some shops will go ahead and charge you the market value for the
repairs based on the full amount of hours the software told them it
should take, even if they were able to do it a couple of hours
faster. Others do not.

To be fair, I'm told they all charge that many hours even if it
doesn't take that many hours.

The software tells them how long a job should take from start to
finish, yes. it's upto the shop itself though if they want to go
ahead and bill you for the full amount of hours or not.

Where can we car owners get that manual online?

The same places the autoshops who make use of the software can, but,
expect to pay some serious money for the software and have plenty of
storage space available to contain the database. Or, you can opt for
the online version that's subscription based. You can access it from
anywhere you have an internet connection and compatible browser.

If you feel that you're being cheated, and, it sounds like you feel
that way, I'd suggest taking your vehicle to another repair shop and
see how they treat you in so far as billable time goes for the
repairs you request/need performed.



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Frank S
news in alt.windows7.general, wrote:

In news Rene Lamontagne said:

Try Chilton manuals
, Used to be our source waybackwhen.

The original question asks for a database *online* for the shop
hours for any given job.

I know Mitchells has it in paper manuals but I'm seeking an
*online* source.

A flatrate amount most likely isn't in paper manuals, but the time it
should take a qualified mechanic to do the repair is. As the repair
cost varies from shop to shop and location to location. The shop
owner sets the hourly rate, but, the software tells them how many
hours this or that job should take to complete.

I just want the flat rate time. Online. If it exists.

It doesn't provide a flat rate, it provides the time it should take a
qualified mechanic to do the repair. The shop sets the price they
charge per hour.




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