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How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manualtransmission?
On 24/09/2017 6:33 AM, rbowman wrote:
On 09/23/2017 11:59 AM, Chaya Eve wrote: On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 14:47:08 +0000, Stormin' Norman wrote: The splines on the clutch disc must line up with the splines on the flywheel. When the pressure plate is tightened in place, the clutch disc is held very firmly in place.* Without aligning the splines first, you will likely have a very difficult time inserting the transmission shaft through the clutch disc and into the flywheel. Most DIYs seem to gloss over this step. As an example, this DIY at time 331 seconds, simply shows the bright red centering tool already in place! :( *https://youtu.be/S5xSOy03NAg?t=331 That same video, shows at time 352 seconds, a *different* centering tool. *https://youtu.be/S5xSOy03NAg?t=352 It's one of those things you don't necessarily think about that screws up someone without experience in the job. It's like the whole angle discussion. They might show sliding the transmission back in place like a stick of butter in a hot frying pan but after you've laid on your back sweating and cursing trying to rattle a heavy chunk of metal just right to get it started in the splines you realize the importance of being able to line everything up nicely. Amen to that. -- Xeno |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manualtransmission?
On 24/09/2017 6:42 AM, rbowman wrote:
On 09/23/2017 11:59 AM, Chaya Eve wrote: On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 12:21:31 +1000, Xeno wrote: That movement in other than the fore and aft direction that the trans mount adapter needs to be capable of will be of great assistance here. This video, at time 92 seconds, says what you say, which is that the "crankshaft and topshaft" must be aligned "along the same axis". https://youtu.be/S5xSOy03NAg?t=92 They show that procedure of aligning the two shafts at time 409 seconds: https://youtu.be/S5xSOy03NAg?t=409 . Tip the front down an twist the front of the transmission to the driver side . Lower the transmission (most seem to do it by hand even when they have a jack???) Depends on how strong/old you are. This video, at time 62 seconds, shows a guy wrestling a Toyota transmission up but then using a regular floor jack to hold it there (but he has to adjust it a lot). https://youtu.be/NcTmlO9XN1E?t=62 Yup. Been there, done that, but without the dog... There seems to be audio so that guy is very self controlled. Generally you last there screaming "F**k! F**k!" like some New Age mantra. Then when your well meaning, nice old lady neighbor wanders over to ask if you're all right you sort of have to come up with a polite reassurance through gritted teeth hoping she'll go back to her soap opera. Any mechanic who doesn't swear like a trooper hasn't been there, done that! It's really fun when the transmission is heavy enough to challenge your bench press capabilities and you realize you've got one more rep left before it's going to come down on you. -- Xeno |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manualtransmission?
On 24/09/2017 6:49 AM, rbowman wrote:
On 09/23/2017 12:05 PM, Ed wrote: On 9/23/2017 12:38 PM, rbowman wrote: btw, I think my terminology has been sloppy at times; bolts have a matching nut, screws go into a threaded hole. Somehow 'bolt up the pressure plate' sounds better than 'screw up the pressure plate'. I *really* wish your definition of bolts and screws was true but the standard naming convention is "screwed" up.* ;-) https://www.mcmaster.com/#screws/=19iejis https://www.mscdirect.com/browse/Fas...navid=12108710 https://www.fastenal.com/products?r=...eners%22 %7C~ Yeah, it most definitely is a gray area for terminology. I've got to admit in my mental processes screws start turning into bolts at around 3/8" A hex bolt that screws into a threaded hole is a *set screw*. If it has a recessed hex, then it's a cap screw. But it does depend on which part of the world you're in too. I'll call it a bolt and I'm quite happy with that. That second link had me guessing. I don't refer to Chicago screws as 'sex bolts' :) -- Xeno |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manualtransmission?
It's one of those things you don't necessarily think about that screws
up someone without experience in the job. It's like the whole angle discussion. They might show sliding the transmission back in place like a stick of butter in a hot frying pan but after you've laid on your back sweating and cursing trying to rattle a heavy chunk of metal just right to get it started in the splines you realize the importance of being able to line everything up nicely. Amen to that. It is remarkably easy to do on the BMW 2002.... you can have one person lifting it on a couple 2X4s while another person rocks it back and forth until it slides right in. The five-speed Getrag on the E28 isn't that much worse. You can drop the damn transmission in the driveway without a lift and have it back in the same afternoon. Part of this is because the manual is very good, part is because the transmission is light, and part of it is because you can actually see the thing well enough to see that it's lined up or not. On the other hand, you couldn't pay me enough to do a Ford Econoline again. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manualtransmission?
On 24/09/2017 6:59 AM, rbowman wrote:
On 09/23/2017 12:24 PM, Chaya Eve wrote: On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 14:47:08 +0000, Stormin' Norman wrote: Additional hints: always replace the throwout bearing, The videos are instrumental for me to visualize what you're saying, as this one, for example, at time 195 seconds, shows that throwout bearing (aka release bearing) in action. *https://youtu.be/9UmrCl2nLKM?t=195 I don't know what we did before videos and digital photography. The last Yaris I had came without a radio. Putting a radio in these days means starting down around the console with a plastic putty knife popping of various trim pieces until you work your way up to the speedometer assembly. Thanks the Gods for the forum's step by step photos. I love the little toolkits you can now buy very cheaply for that sort of work. This is the one I bought recently; http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/like/3720...=ps&dispItem=1 Even for some projects where I'd draw a sketch to make sure I'd get everything back in the same place I can now just take a picture. Yep, and the phone is perfect for that task. What's more it's the one thing you tend to carry all the time. -- Xeno |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manualtransmission?
On 24/09/2017 9:18 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
It's one of those things you don't necessarily think about that screws up someone without experience in the job. It's like the whole angle discussion. They might show sliding the transmission back in place like a stick of butter in a hot frying pan but after you've laid on your back sweating and cursing trying to rattle a heavy chunk of metal just right to get it started in the splines you realize the importance of being able to line everything up nicely. Amen to that. It is remarkably easy to do on the BMW 2002.... you can have one person lifting it on a couple 2X4s while another person rocks it back and forth until it slides right in. The five-speed Getrag on the E28 isn't that much worse. You can drop the damn transmission in the driveway without a lift and have it back in the same afternoon. Part of this is because the manual is very good, part is because the transmission is light, and part of it is because you can actually see the thing well enough to see that it's lined up or not. On the other hand, you couldn't pay me enough to do a Ford Econoline again. --scott SB Bedford bus, cast iron case gearbox, no pits or hoist. Did I mention the side skirt on the bus were *low*? -- Xeno |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manualtransmission?
On 09/23/2017 08:28 PM, Xeno wrote:
Yep, and the phone is perfect for that task. What's more it's the one thing you tend to carry all the time. Point taken but about all my flip phone does is make phone calls. I do have a couple of tablets that are more versatile. |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manual transmission?
On Fri, 22 Sep 2017 03:04:09 +0000 (UTC), Chaya Eve
wrote: On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 20:25:53 -0600, rbowman wrote: Do you have any idea how much forward/backward tilt is usually needed? That depends on how level you can get the engine. Hmmmm... this is another thing I never thought of. I will be on "adjustable" jack stands from HF. The 6 ton size. They have those gear teeth. That's the limit of adjustability. How do you measure that the engine is "level"? I have levels, of course. In fact, I "tried" to measure the level of the transmission when I did the lube change a few days ago. Here is a picture that I didn't put in the DIY of me trying to figure out if the tranny is level. https://s26.postimg.org/d5pocivnt/level.jpg I gave up because I didn't have a good flat spot. I knew the garage floor was level though. https://s26.postimg.org/d53ughagp/00...uid_Change.jpg So how do you check the level of the engine? Do you just try what I tried with the transmission and look for a suitable flat spot? Leveling the engine has NOTHING to do with it. The vast majority of light/medium duty vehicles have the bell housing integral to or dastened to the transmission, and without dropping the back of the transmission the bell housing will hit the firewall before the transmission can come out. Therefore the engine and transmission MUST be able to tilt - and often quite a bit - to come off of the engine in a straight line, and to go back onto the engine. |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manual transmission?
On Fri, 22 Sep 2017 03:04:13 +0000 (UTC), Chaya Eve
wrote: On Fri, 22 Sep 2017 11:09:29 +1000, Xeno wrote: I didn't know that "tilt" was a spec that mattered! :) It is the *critical spec*. Without it you can easily end up with a buckled clutch plate or difficulty getting the shafts aligned. The tractor I did recently had a dual clutch, one plate was for the PTO, so there were two splines to line up plus a pilot shaft. Flexibility is key. Well, then, I'm officially edified that tilt *is* the spec! https://www.harborfreight.com/automo...ion-jacks.html How much is the "minimum" tilt needed in degrees? This $160 transmission jack, for example, says: Saddle tilt backwards (deg) 8° Saddle tilt forward (deg) 55° Saddle tilt side (deg) 30° https://www.harborfreight.com/800-lb...ack-60234.html But this $100 one says: Saddle tilt forward (deg) 5 deg. https://www.harborfreight.com/automo...ack-39178.html This $300 one says: Saddle tilt forward (deg) 55° forward, 10° back, 12° side https://www.harborfreight.com/automo...ack-60240.html Obviously more is better in most cases, but what is a minimum required? Forward = ? Back = ? Side = ? I think they have the directions mixed up unless they are talking about a front drive. The side to side isn't terribly critical in your application, and the rear tilt needs to be more than the front - As I said before, a bare minimum of 15 - 20 more likely - and if it can tilt 30, so much the better. The adapter saddle previously shown spec'd 30 forward and back - perfect. For heaviuer transmissions - and 4X4 with transfer case, the side to side tilt ispretty handy. For a relatively lighr RWD, not so much. |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manual transmission?
On Fri, 22 Sep 2017 03:04:14 +0000 (UTC), Chaya Eve
wrote: On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 21:11:25 -0400, wrote: The floor jack you have, with a proper attachment, is better than a $100 transmission jack This is really good to know for a whole bunch of reasons. One is that the saddle will be easier to store and less money than a complete transmission jack. The other is that the floor jack is the beefiest one that Costco sold years ago (maybe ten years ago?) where the only thing I would change if/when it breaks is I'd go to aluminum instead of the heavy steel. How does this "Floor jack transmission adapter" model 39152 look? http://images.harborfreight.com/manu...9999/39152.pdf Unfortunately, it looks like it's no longer sold though. Looks decent. General generic adapter sold by many importers under many brands. |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manual transmission?
On Fri, 22 Sep 2017 04:43:29 -0400, Bubba wrote:
On 09/21/2017 11:04 PM, Chaya Eve wrote: On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 20:25:53 -0600, rbowman wrote: Do you have any idea how much forward/backward tilt is usually needed? That depends on how level you can get the engine. Hmmmm... this is another thing I never thought of. I will be on "adjustable" jack stands from HF. The 6 ton size. They have those gear teeth. That's the limit of adjustability. How do you measure that the engine is "level"? I have levels, of course. In fact, I "tried" to measure the level of the transmission when I did the lube change a few days ago. You need screw style jack stands for precision leveling: https://www.amazon.com/Esco-Screw-St.../dp/B00FG09NS4 Please explain why precision leveling is any kind of an issue???? |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manual transmission?
On Fri, 22 Sep 2017 15:05:16 -0400, Tekkie®
wrote: posted for all of us... A friend's wifes BMW snapped an aluminum bolt on a motor mount, causing the engine to shift out of position. Being a retired machinist he took it apart and was able to remove the threaded portion of the bolt from the block? and replaced it with a steel bolt. This was the mount that fastens the engine to the chassis - and I believe it was the bolt that fastened the mount to the engine block. MAYBE they had this there as part of crash protection... IDK why they would do this? likely because they COULD. |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manual transmission?
On Fri, 22 Sep 2017 21:26:53 +0000 (UTC), Chaya Eve
wrote: On Fri, 22 Sep 2017 06:47:18 -0600, rbowman wrote: How do you measure that the engine is "level"? I have levels, of course. I hesitated when I wrote that. The axis of the engine's crankshaft when it is supported has to be the same as that of the transmission's input shaft. The whole lashup could be at a 20 degree angle relative to the floor as long as both match. Another way to look at is the perpendicular mating surfaces need to have matching angles. Thanks for clarifying that the engine needs to be in line with the transmission shaft, where they look (to the naked eye) parallel to the garage floor that the vehicle will be parked on. They are pretty close untill you remove the rear mount and pivot the engine back to slide the transmission out from under the floor - without the bellhousing hitting the floor. |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manual transmission?
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 08:39:05 +0000 (UTC), Chaya Eve
wrote: On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 12:21:31 +1000, Xeno wrote: . Starter bolts 30ft# . Bellhousing bolts 54ft# . Flywheel (either 19 ft lbs+1/4 turn for 3RZ or 65ftlbs for the 2RZ and 5VZ engines) Pressure plate bolt torques? As critical as flywheel bolt. Thanks. I appreciate your advice because most of the DIYs I read were just words, where the words meant something only to someone who has already done it. For example, I didn't even know the pressure plate had bolts. The DIYs I found just said "remove pressure plate" so I assumed there were no bolts. I added an empty spot for the pressure plate bolt torque, which I will fill in when found! Learn to differentiate between pedal free play and release bearing free play - you should be able to feel two (2) distinct steps - pedal play, then release play. I admit, the whole "clutch pedal adjustment" procedure is a fog to me at the moment. I can only distinguish, when pressing a clutch pedal, the distance that nothing happens, versus the distance that something happens. Some systems work on zero free play at the release bearing (e.g. carbon thrust block types) but, in the case of hydraulic systems, there is *always* a need for free play at the master cylinder end. This is to ensure correct operation of the MC hydraulics. I need to study that further to understand it better. No mention of what you should be inspecting for, both on bits you intend to replace and those you intend to refit. Flywheel face, for instance. That is a good point that I don't know what to look for. In the case of the DIYs, everyone shows a picture of a chewed-up clutch, but I'm expecting to replace the clutch, so that won't matter much. Also most expect to resurface the flywheel. And most expect to replace the two "bearings", the throwout & pilot. And they expect to replace the "rear engine seal". I'm not sure of what else that people routinely inspect to replace. In my case, I'm not expecting any "damage" since the transmission is essentially working fine (the clutch is merely "due" for a change based on time and miles). Like a said, "time" or "mileage" to replace a clutch is generally BS. It is "on condition" - meaning dependent on operation. No mention of cleaning and safety precautions associated with same. I'm not sure what 'cleaning' is needed other than wiping off old grease. You will soon find out. every bit of what USED to be the clutch plate (friction material) is now dirty, sticky, black dust fouling everything in sight! . It is said to put it in gear when aligning splines (allows output & input shaft to turn) Top gear always. The thing I didn't get is how I'm supposed to put it in gear when it's already removed from the vehicle? Thke it OUT in gear. Is it easy to put a transmission in top gear when it's just sitting there on the garage floor without a shifter mechanism? Sometimes. Generally not. REMOVE the transmission IN GEAR. |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manual transmission?
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 08:39:06 +0000 (UTC), Chaya Eve
wrote: On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 15:08:54 +1000, Xeno wrote: We had such a generic alignment tool available. The issue was that it didn't handle the dual clutch system on the tractor at all well. The local dealer didn't have a *factory one* for the tractor but he lent us one he'd made up on a lathe. It wasn't a firm fit however, hence the need to pack it up with tape. Coupled with 4 alignment dowels, made out of bolts with heads removed, fitted into the block, the mating up process was the smoothest I'd ever encountered. What I don't understand, since I don't even know why this "alignment tool" is needed, is what happens if I don't have this special alignment tool? The air will turn VERY blue before the transmission gets back into place. The clutch disc needs to be installed virtually 100% concentric with the crankshaft/pilot beating/ flywheel, and the ONLY way to do it easily is with a dummy spline - AKA a clutch alignment tool. You can make one if you can't buy one - I've made them from a broomstick in a pinch - I've also used a deep socket wrapped with tape - but I've worked in the "bush" in central/east and west Africa where you end up making more than you buy - - - |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manual transmission?
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 18:28:26 +0000 (UTC), Chaya Eve
wrote: On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 14:05:18 -0400, Ed wrote: I *really* wish your definition of bolts and screws was true but the standard naming convention is "screwed" up.* ;-) https://www.mcmaster.com/#screws/=19iejis https://www.mscdirect.com/browse/Fas...navid=12108710 https://www.fastenal.com/products?r=...eners%22 %7C~ Personally, I use bolt when it's threaded into something that has matching threads (these are generally relatively shallow angle threads). I use screws for when it's a steeper-angled thread that "bites" into the material (often with a sharp point). Bolts generally have hex heads (for sockets) but not always. Screws generally have screwdriver notches but not always. The difference is, to me, in two things mainly: . The angle of the threads (screw threads are steeper) . The mating material (screws make their own mating threads) I might be wrong though as I don't follow the McMaster definition exactly. So what about a "cap screw" or a "grub screw" or a "machine screw" or a "set screw" - all od which are ":technically" bolts by your description ???. There are other examples. |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manual transmission?
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 13:29:47 -0500, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/23/2017 1:24 PM, Chaya Eve wrote: On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 10:40:17 -0600, rbowman wrote: And if you're taking blood thinners or even common aspirin, band-aids, plenty of band-aids.... Some videos are titled "toyota versus mechanic, round 2". Maybe brutal but Fiat vs Mechanic is a death match. Try Moscavitch or Lada Vs Mechanic on for size. Or Peugeot - or old Jag. |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manual transmission?
On Sun, 24 Sep 2017 08:48:32 +1000, Xeno
wrote: On 24/09/2017 6:49 AM, rbowman wrote: On 09/23/2017 12:05 PM, Ed wrote: On 9/23/2017 12:38 PM, rbowman wrote: btw, I think my terminology has been sloppy at times; bolts have a matching nut, screws go into a threaded hole. Somehow 'bolt up the pressure plate' sounds better than 'screw up the pressure plate'. I *really* wish your definition of bolts and screws was true but the standard naming convention is "screwed" up.* ;-) https://www.mcmaster.com/#screws/=19iejis https://www.mscdirect.com/browse/Fas...navid=12108710 https://www.fastenal.com/products?r=...eners%22 %7C~ Yeah, it most definitely is a gray area for terminology. I've got to admit in my mental processes screws start turning into bolts at around 3/8" A hex bolt that screws into a threaded hole is a *set screw*. If it has a recessed hex, then it's a cap screw. But it does depend on which part of the world you're in too. You are mixed up I'll call it a bolt and I'm quite happy with that. Good idea - - - That second link had me guessing. I don't refer to Chicago screws as 'sex bolts' :) |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manual transmission?
wrote:
Please explain why precision leveling is any kind of an issue???? Because you can't just wiggle it back and forth until everything slides into place. Well, you CAN do that with a VW bug, but once the thing gets bigger than one person can lift it becomes a problem. So you have to line everything up so it's all straight in a line and then push it together straight. It's not as hard as some people are making it out to be.... unless you have one of those vehicles where it is. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manual transmission?
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How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manual transmission?
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How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manualtransmission?
On 25/09/2017 8:43 AM, Pack wrote:
On 9/24/2017 6:28 PM, wrote: On Fri, 22 Sep 2017 04:43:29 -0400, Bubba wrote: You need screw style jack stands for precision leveling: https://www.amazon.com/Esco-Screw-St.../dp/B00FG09NS4 Â* Please explain why precision leveling is any kind of an issue???? The owners manual says the car must be level when you check the oil. That direction is for people who are unable to make mental allowances for situations that aren't 100% spot on. -- Xeno |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manualtransmission?
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How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manualtransmission?
On 25/09/2017 8:58 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 18:28:26 +0000 (UTC), Chaya Eve wrote: On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 14:05:18 -0400, Ed wrote: I *really* wish your definition of bolts and screws was true but the standard naming convention is "screwed" up.Â* ;-) https://www.mcmaster.com/#screws/=19iejis https://www.mscdirect.com/browse/Fas...navid=12108710 https://www.fastenal.com/products?r=...eners%22 %7C~ Personally, I use bolt when it's threaded into something that has matching threads (these are generally relatively shallow angle threads). I use screws for when it's a steeper-angled thread that "bites" into the material (often with a sharp point). Bolts generally have hex heads (for sockets) but not always. Screws generally have screwdriver notches but not always. The difference is, to me, in two things mainly: . The angle of the threads (screw threads are steeper) . The mating material (screws make their own mating threads) I might be wrong though as I don't follow the McMaster definition exactly. So what about a "cap screw" or a "grub screw" or a "machine screw" or a "set screw" - all od which are ":technically" bolts by your description ???. There are other examples. Yes, literally hundreds of different types. ;-) -- Xeno |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manualtransmission?
On 09/24/2017 06:53 PM, wrote:
On 24 Sep 2017 19:08:35 -0400, (Scott Dorsey) wrote: wrote: Please explain why precision leveling is any kind of an issue???? Because you can't just wiggle it back and forth until everything slides into place. Well, you CAN do that with a VW bug, but once the thing gets bigger than one person can lift it becomes a problem. So you have to line everything up so it's all straight in a line and then push it together straight. It's not as hard as some people are making it out to be.... unless you have one of those vehicles where it is. --scott except leveling has NOTHING to do with it. it is just lining both the engine and tramsmissin on the same plane. Once again I phrased it wrong. Theoretically if the transmission assembly and floor were both dead level you wouldn't need any tilt in the jack. The greater the angle respective to the floor, the more tilt required. I did not mean to suggest leveling the transmission was necessary or even possible in many cases. |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manualtransmission?
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How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manual transmission?
"Chaya Eve" wrote: . Pilot bearing puller (or blind hole puller from HF or autozone) Okay, you've mentioned them. Read on...... Here is my tentative DIY (composite from a few non-correct-truck DIYs): Why not just use the correct DIY, from the place you mentioned? Section 2 : W59 and R150 Transmissions 4RUNNER http://www.autozone.com/repairinfo/r...00c15280261f01 You could sign up (it's free), and access info on manymanymanymany cars + trucks. (Lemme guess... you didn't know they had repair info?) |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manualtransmission?
On 26/09/2017 9:46 AM, Sanity Clause wrote:
"Chaya Eve" wrote: . Pilot bearing puller (or blind hole puller from HF or autozone) Okay, you've mentioned them. Read on...... Here is my tentative DIY (composite from a few non-correct-truck DIYs): Why not just use the correct DIY, from the place you mentioned? Section 2 : W59 and R150 Transmissions 4RUNNER http://www.autozone.com/repairinfo/r...00c15280261f01 You could sign up (it's free), and access info on manymanymanymany cars + trucks. (Lemme guess... you didn't know they had repair info?) I didn't but then, it's a different country to the one I live in. What I saw as being useful was they give a good rundown on all things you need to think about when removing the gearbox. A lot of people, when removing a gearbox, pay scant consideration to the effect that engine/gearbox tilt have on underhood bits and pieces; top radiator hose, wiring, linkages, etc. -- Xeno |
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