How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manualtransmission?
On 09/22/2017 08:21 PM, Xeno wrote:
The clutch alignment tool does not need to have splines. That said, most people of my acquaintance keep on hand a swag of transmission input shafts from trans rebuild jobs. Ask about the possibility of securing one of these at a trans place near you. Alternatively, I have had success building a shaft that is too small up to size using humble old plastic electrical insulation tape. Did that on the tractor I recently changed a clutch on since we didn't have the exact dummy pilot shaft we needed, and it worked perfectly. Necessity is the mother of invention, not to mention cost savings. At one time I had a generic alignment tool. It had a number of interchangeable ends for the various pilot bearing sizes, and a tapered guide to fit various sizes of clutch bores. However they now have very inexpensive plastic tools for most popular vehicles. iirc the one I got was $3 or $4. |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manualtransmission?
On 23/09/2017 2:46 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 09/22/2017 08:21 PM, Xeno wrote: The clutch alignment tool does not need to have splines. That said, most people of my acquaintance keep on hand a swag of transmission input shafts from trans rebuild jobs. Ask about the possibility of securing one of these at a trans place near you. Alternatively, I have had success building a shaft that is too small up to size using humble old plastic electrical insulation tape. Did that on the tractor I recently changed a clutch on since we didn't have the exact dummy pilot shaft we needed, and it worked perfectly. Necessity is the mother of invention, not to mention cost savings. At one time I had a generic alignment tool. It had a number of interchangeable ends for the various pilot bearing sizes, and a tapered guide to fit various sizes of clutch bores. However they now have very inexpensive plastic tools for most popular vehicles. iirc the one I got was $3 or $4. We had such a generic alignment tool available. The issue was that it didn't handle the dual clutch system on the tractor at all well. The local dealer didn't have a *factory one* for the tractor but he lent us one he'd made up on a lathe. It wasn't a firm fit however, hence the need to pack it up with tape. Coupled with 4 alignment dowels, made out of bolts with heads removed, fitted into the block, the mating up process was the smoothest I'd ever encountered. -- Xeno |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manual transmission?
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 11:44:43 +1000, Xeno wrote:
Most engines that I've come across are not "parallel to the garage floor". In fact, most are inclined at a slight downward angle. There are reasons for this and it has to do with driveshaft alignment. More likely to be horizontal if the vehicle has a triple jointed driveshaft. I may very well have been wrong when I said that the transmission seems to be parallel to the garage floor. When I align the transmission jack, based on what you just said, I will plan to be tilted a few degrees such that the rear is lower than the front then. |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manual transmission?
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 12:21:31 +1000, Xeno wrote:
. Starter bolts 30ft# . Bellhousing bolts 54ft# . Flywheel (either 19 ft lbs+1/4 turn for 3RZ or 65ftlbs for the 2RZ and 5VZ engines) Pressure plate bolt torques? As critical as flywheel bolt. Thanks. I appreciate your advice because most of the DIYs I read were just words, where the words meant something only to someone who has already done it. For example, I didn't even know the pressure plate had bolts. The DIYs I found just said "remove pressure plate" so I assumed there were no bolts. I added an empty spot for the pressure plate bolt torque, which I will fill in when found! Learn to differentiate between pedal free play and release bearing free play - you should be able to feel two (2) distinct steps - pedal play, then release play. I admit, the whole "clutch pedal adjustment" procedure is a fog to me at the moment. I can only distinguish, when pressing a clutch pedal, the distance that nothing happens, versus the distance that something happens. Some systems work on zero free play at the release bearing (e.g. carbon thrust block types) but, in the case of hydraulic systems, there is *always* a need for free play at the master cylinder end. This is to ensure correct operation of the MC hydraulics. I need to study that further to understand it better. No mention of what you should be inspecting for, both on bits you intend to replace and those you intend to refit. Flywheel face, for instance. That is a good point that I don't know what to look for. In the case of the DIYs, everyone shows a picture of a chewed-up clutch, but I'm expecting to replace the clutch, so that won't matter much. Also most expect to resurface the flywheel. And most expect to replace the two "bearings", the throwout & pilot. And they expect to replace the "rear engine seal". I'm not sure of what else that people routinely inspect to replace. In my case, I'm not expecting any "damage" since the transmission is essentially working fine (the clutch is merely "due" for a change based on time and miles). No mention of cleaning and safety precautions associated with same. I'm not sure what 'cleaning' is needed other than wiping off old grease. . It is said to put it in gear when aligning splines (allows output & input shaft to turn) Top gear always. The thing I didn't get is how I'm supposed to put it in gear when it's already removed from the vehicle? Is it easy to put a transmission in top gear when it's just sitting there on the garage floor without a shifter mechanism? |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manual transmission?
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 15:08:54 +1000, Xeno wrote:
We had such a generic alignment tool available. The issue was that it didn't handle the dual clutch system on the tractor at all well. The local dealer didn't have a *factory one* for the tractor but he lent us one he'd made up on a lathe. It wasn't a firm fit however, hence the need to pack it up with tape. Coupled with 4 alignment dowels, made out of bolts with heads removed, fitted into the block, the mating up process was the smoothest I'd ever encountered. What I don't understand, since I don't even know why this "alignment tool" is needed, is what happens if I don't have this special alignment tool? |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manual transmission?
On Fri, 22 Sep 2017 22:46:09 -0600, rbowman wrote:
At one time I had a generic alignment tool. It had a number of interchangeable ends for the various pilot bearing sizes, and a tapered guide to fit various sizes of clutch bores. However they now have very inexpensive plastic tools for most popular vehicles. iirc the one I got was $3 or $4. I have to openly admit I don't understand this step. None of the DIYs referenced show HOW to do this step. So it's just something I wrote - but it means as much to me as it would to a fifth grader. I can imagine that there is a shaft that has long "grooves" in it that has to fit into "something" that has correspondingly long "opposite grooves" in it. But I don't have any feel for why a special "tool" is needed to get the two sets of matching grooves to line up. I haven't seen any pictures of that yet nor videos. So it's just words to me at the moment and not an image in my mind. |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manualtransmission?
On 23/09/2017 6:39 PM, Chaya Eve wrote:
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 11:44:43 +1000, Xeno wrote: Most engines that I've come across are not "parallel to the garage floor". In fact, most are inclined at a slight downward angle. There are reasons for this and it has to do with driveshaft alignment. More likely to be horizontal if the vehicle has a triple jointed driveshaft. I may very well have been wrong when I said that the transmission seems to be parallel to the garage floor. When I align the transmission jack, based on what you just said, I will plan to be tilted a few degrees such that the rear is lower than the front then. Another point worth noting. When you are ready to remove the trans, and have removed the rear cross member and associated mounts, you often need to lower the rear of the gearbox down in order to either get clearance to undo the top bell housing bolts or to get clear of the trans tunnel when removing the gearbox. That means your trans adapter needs to accommodate the basic tilt angle plus the extended tilt angle after the rear of the trans has been lowered to accommodate removal. Which is why an adapter with a 5 degree angle doesn't cut it. -- Xeno |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manual transmission?
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 19:49:06 +1000, Xeno wrote:
Another point worth noting. When you are ready to remove the trans, and have removed the rear cross member ... Just a side point which is that in the DIYs I looked at (Tundra, for example), the cross member was bolted but in my Toyota (4Runner) it is welded so the cross member isn't going anywhere. and associated mounts, you often need to lower the rear of the gearbox down in order to either get clearance to undo the top bell housing bolts or to get clear of the trans tunnel when removing the gearbox. That means your trans adapter needs to accommodate the basic tilt angle plus the extended tilt angle after the rear of the trans has been lowered to accommodate removal. Which is why an adapter with a 5 degree angle doesn't cut it. I understand and I appreciate that you (and someone else) already said that 5 degrees is not going to cut the mustard. I think I will aim for 20 degrees minimum. A friend is coming over this weekend who will give me gratis his boxed unopened HF motorcycle lift. He bought it and never used it and then crashed the bike. So he doesn't need it. We'll assemble it and see if it does the trick. If not, then I will definitely get either the saddle or the transmission jack where I will seek out 20 degrees or more. Nobody said yet though if we need that in all three directions .. front .. back .. side I suspect only front-and-back is required but I ask because now is the time to ask (before I buy it). |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manualtransmission?
On 23/09/2017 6:39 PM, Chaya Eve wrote:
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 15:08:54 +1000, Xeno wrote: We had such a generic alignment tool available. The issue was that it didn't handle the dual clutch system on the tractor at all well. The local dealer didn't have a *factory one* for the tractor but he lent us one he'd made up on a lathe. It wasn't a firm fit however, hence the need to pack it up with tape. Coupled with 4 alignment dowels, made out of bolts with heads removed, fitted into the block, the mating up process was the smoothest I'd ever encountered. What I don't understand, since I don't even know why this "alignment tool" is needed, is what happens if I don't have this special alignment tool? You either need a very good eye - or be very good with god. Most people, in my experience anyhow, seem good with neither. I have aligned clutch plates by eye in the past, and been successful, but I have a good eye for such things. Most people do not. Hence the need for a clutch aligning tool. http://lh4.ggpht.com/_Ii1ukGkfijY/Sq...jpg?imgmax=800 In the picture link above, observe the right hand diagram. It shows the gearbox mounted up and the input shaft passing through the clutch plate and entering the spigot bush. The plate faces are clamped to the flywheel by the pressure plate. When you release that clutch, the plate comes free of the faces but is still on the input shaft. So it stays there but spinning freely. Now refer to the left hand diagram. When you are installing the clutch and pressure plate, that is what you will have - no gearbox hence no input shaft. The input shaft will be sitting on the floor still attached to the gearbox. Not a lot of use there when you need it to align that plate into the correct central location during installation. That's why you need a *dummy shaft*. A clutch aligning tool is nothing more than a dummy shaft that you can use temporarily as a substitute for that input shaft while fitting up the clutch and pressure plate to the flywheel. In short, the exact centre of the clutch plate needs to be aligned exactly with the centre of the spigot bush. The dummy shaft ensures that alignment exists as you tighten the pressure plate bolts. If you fail to align the two, and it only needs to be a poofteenth of a millifart out, when you insert the input shaft (still attached to the gearbox, remember), you will get it up to and onto the spline - possibly - but the nose of the shaft may not be able to go the next step - enter the spigot shaft bush. This is simply because of misalignment. If, for any reason, you drop the rear end of the gearbox down whilst the input shaft is partially on the clutch plate splines but not in the spigot bush, you run the real risk of distorting the clutch plate after which it will be stuffed. A distorted clutch plate will fail to release cleanly - or at all. You can get the exact tool for your vehicle that looks like this; https://frsport.com/images/detailed_...00_FG02-01.jpg Note how it looks just like a gearbox input shaft. Or a universal tool like this one; http://www.toolsinstock.com/admin/images/0314.jpg I prefer this type if I am going for a universal type. https://i.frg.im/Srp6lau/121048656058-0_600.jpg The top row of adapters is meant to fit the different internal diameters of the clutch plate spline. The bottom row of adapters is meant to fit the spigot bearing. Alignment is everything. It's also why your jack needs a lot more *tilt angle* than you think. -- Xeno |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manualtransmission?
On 23/09/2017 6:39 PM, Chaya Eve wrote:
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 12:21:31 +1000, Xeno wrote: . Starter bolts 30ft# . Bellhousing bolts 54ft# . Flywheel (either 19 ft lbs+1/4 turn for 3RZ or 65ftlbs for the 2RZ and 5VZ engines) Pressure plate bolt torques? As critical as flywheel bolt. Thanks. I appreciate your advice because most of the DIYs I read were just words, where the words meant something only to someone who has already done it. I once did the RTFM bit. Problem was, the manual I had, an aftermarket one and not a factory shop manual, had the torques for the flywheel bolts mixed up with the pressure plate bolt torques. 28 ft/lb on half inch flywheel bolts and 65 ft/lbs on 5/16th" pressure plate bolts just did not sound logical. So I reversed them. That's trade experience. Never assume. Bolts have torques that are relative to their size, the thread form, the material of which they are made, the material they are clamping, and the presence of gaskets. After decades in the trade, something that defies logic literally jumps out at you - even misprints in books. For example, I didn't even know the pressure plate had bolts. The DIYs I found just said "remove pressure plate" so I assumed there were no bolts. In this, as with everything mechanical, make no assumptions. RTFM. Preferably a factory manual. Must make a note here. Most factory workshop manuals make one major assumption - that the people using them are tradesmen and are familiar with all the basics. Ergo, they skip a lot of the basic stuff. The aftermarket ones are designed for the novice and, as such, they give step by step procedures. My issue with them is they lack the depth *I* require. I added an empty spot for the pressure plate bolt torque, which I will fill in when found! Learn to differentiate between pedal free play and release bearing free play - you should be able to feel two (2) distinct steps - pedal play, then release play. I admit, the whole "clutch pedal adjustment" procedure is a fog to me at the moment. I can only distinguish, when pressing a clutch pedal, the distance that nothing happens, versus the distance that something happens. There are three *distances*. There is the distance where absolutely nothing happens but the take up of the free play between the clutch pedal and the MC piston. You are working against the pedal return spring here. The next take up distance, with very slightly more force required, is the free play between the release bearing and the pressure plate fingers. The actual force you are acting against, apart from a miniscule amount of hydraulic resistance, is the force of the clutch release fork return spring. From that point right down to the end of pedal travel, you are acting against the diaphragm spring in the actual pressure plate. A little extra here. The diaphragm spring works differently to, say, a coil spring. A coil spring continually increases its resistance as the spring is compressed. A diaphragm spring, on the other hand, has the highest resistance at the start and at the midway point of its compression, becomes easier to compress. Less force required to go from the halfway point to the bottom of travel. The bonus of this *feature* is that the clutch is much easier to hold when the pedal is to the floor. Women love this feature. Some systems work on zero free play at the release bearing (e.g. carbon thrust block types) but, in the case of hydraulic systems, there is *always* a need for free play at the master cylinder end. This is to ensure correct operation of the MC hydraulics. I need to study that further to understand it better. All you need to know on that score is that the piston in the master cylinder needs to come right back to its stop, which is usually a circlip. A small amount of free play between the piston and the pedal push rod *ensures* that the piston can fully return. No mention of what you should be inspecting for, both on bits you intend to replace and those you intend to refit. Flywheel face, for instance. That is a good point that I don't know what to look for. Indeed, a very good point. In the case of the DIYs, everyone shows a picture of a chewed-up clutch, but I'm expecting to replace the clutch, so that won't matter much. Also most expect to resurface the flywheel. It might not need replacement or resurfacing. If it is flat, not gouged, no signs of heat marks, no fine cracking, you should be Ok to use it. Heat marks, for an example, are a judgemental thing. And most expect to replace the two "bearings", the throwout & pilot. Always. They are a pita to replace by themselves if they fail later. Replace the lot while you have it apart. And they expect to replace the "rear engine seal". Some you can, some you cannot *easily* replace in situ. I'm not sure of what else that people routinely inspect to replace. In my case, I'm not expecting any "damage" since the transmission is essentially working fine (the clutch is merely "due" for a change based on time and miles). No mention of cleaning and safety precautions associated with same. I'm not sure what 'cleaning' is needed other than wiping off old grease. In the good old days, clutch plates were made of that wonderful substance known popularly as *asbestos*. Now, in these more enlightened times people have become aware of the dangers of asbestos. That does not mean that your car may not have asbestos in the clutch plate. Older vehicles may still have some asbestos. Never assume they don't. What's more, a lot of people buy cheap Chinese made clutch replacement kits. Some of the kits are manufactured by some less than scrupulous companies and *still* contain asbestos. If your vehicle has has a clutch replacement in the past, it may contain asbestos. Never assume it doesn't. That means you *Do Not Use An Air Pistol* to blow out the clutch dust. Think of cleaning brake shoes, pads, etc and use the same techniques - always wet to keep any dust suppressed. Have a look at a few video clips on cleaning brakes to get an idea of the path you should follow. This stuff; https://www.crcindustries.com.au/pro...-parts-cleaner Is good for cleaning out the clutch housing, the back of the engine, flywheel area, etc. Note, it leaves no residue. When you get your new bits, and I advise getting a complete clutch kit which includes pressure plate, you need to know what to clean, and just as importantly, what *not to clean*. In the case of the *new* pressure plate, it will be pre-lubed and will have a coating of preservative to prevent rust. Do not under any circumstances dunk the whole unit in cleaning fluid. Only clean off the clutch face with a suitable cleaning solvent. A suitable cleaning solvent is any solvent that does not leave an oily residue. Or any residue for that matter. This should be clearly stated in the instructions that come with the clutch kit. If you use the brakleen mentioned above, do not spray the pressure plate. Spray onto a rag and use that to clean just the clutch face area of the pressure plate. Again, follow any instructions that come with the clutch kit. . It is said to put it in gear when aligning splines (allows output & input shaft to turn) Top gear always. The thing I didn't get is how I'm supposed to put it in gear when it's already removed from the vehicle? Use the lever(s), either on the side of the trans or the main change lever. If you have removed the main gear change lever, and it's likely you will need to, you can usually poke down in the hole and manually select a gear using a large screwdriver of the like. Or temporarily reinsert the lever. Is it easy to put a transmission in top gear when it's just sitting there on the garage floor without a shifter mechanism? I have never had much of an issue doing that. -- Xeno |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manualtransmission?
On 23/09/2017 6:39 PM, Chaya Eve wrote:
On Fri, 22 Sep 2017 22:46:09 -0600, rbowman wrote: At one time I had a generic alignment tool. It had a number of interchangeable ends for the various pilot bearing sizes, and a tapered guide to fit various sizes of clutch bores. However they now have very inexpensive plastic tools for most popular vehicles. iirc the one I got was $3 or $4. I have to openly admit I don't understand this step. None of the DIYs referenced show HOW to do this step. So it's just something I wrote - but it means as much to me as it would to a fifth grader. It really is a case of *I see, I know, I do and I understand*. What you need to get your head around is the relationship between the flywheel, the clutch plate and the pressure plate. Sectioned views of a clutch in operation will help a lot here. Like this; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b08UA-c0cuc Note, it shows the pressure plate bolts. Bonus! ;-) Observe what happens to the clutch plate when the clutch pedal is depressed. It is no longer clamped between the pressure plate and the flywheel. It is on the splined input shaft however so is still correctly located and, more importantly, centred. What would happen if the input shaft wasn't there? Nothing to centre the clutch plate. That is the situation you face when you are bolting the pressure plate up to the flywheel with the clutch plate sandwiched in between. A dummy shaft or an alignment tool can hold the clutch plate in the exact correct alignment while you fit up and bolt down the pressure plate. When it's in the exact centre, you will have no trouble fitting up the gearbox with its input shaft. I can imagine that there is a shaft that has long "grooves" in it that has to fit into "something" that has correspondingly long "opposite grooves" in it. Yes, it can indeed be like that - but it doesn't need to be. But I don't have any feel for why a special "tool" is needed to get the two sets of matching grooves to line up. I haven't seen any pictures of that yet nor videos. So it's just words to me at the moment and not an image in my mind. The alignment tool comes with the gearbox. It is the input shaft and the issue arises that it is an *integral part of the gearbox* and attached rather firmly to it. You need a *temporary input shaft* when assembling the clutch and pressure plate. That is all the alignment tool is. -- Xeno |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manualtransmission?
On 9/23/2017 4:39 AM, Chaya Eve wrote:
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 15:08:54 +1000, Xeno wrote: We had such a generic alignment tool available. The issue was that it didn't handle the dual clutch system on the tractor at all well. The local dealer didn't have a *factory one* for the tractor but he lent us one he'd made up on a lathe. It wasn't a firm fit however, hence the need to pack it up with tape. Coupled with 4 alignment dowels, made out of bolts with heads removed, fitted into the block, the mating up process was the smoothest I'd ever encountered. What I don't understand, since I don't even know why this "alignment tool" is needed, is what happens if I don't have this special alignment tool? Without it you curse a lot. You may need blood pressure medication too. |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manualtransmission?
On 24/09/2017 12:22 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/23/2017 4:39 AM, Chaya Eve wrote: On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 15:08:54 +1000, Xeno wrote: We had such a generic alignment tool available. The issue was that it didn't handle the dual clutch system on the tractor at all well. The local dealer didn't have a *factory one* for the tractor but he lent us one he'd made up on a lathe. It wasn't a firm fit however, hence the need to pack it up with tape. Coupled with 4 alignment dowels, made out of bolts with heads removed, fitted into the block, the mating up process was the smoothest I'd ever encountered. What I don't understand, since I don't even know why this "alignment tool" is needed, is what happens if I don't have this special alignment tool? Without it you curse a lot.Â* You may need blood pressure medication too. True that! -- Xeno |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manual transmission?
In rec.autos.tech Stormin' Norman wrote:
The splines on the clutch disc must line up with the splines on the flywheel. I REALLY don't think so. Hint: no splines on the flywheel. The clutch disk has to line up with the pilot bearing. |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manualtransmission?
On 09/23/2017 02:39 AM, Chaya Eve wrote:
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 15:08:54 +1000, Xeno wrote: We had such a generic alignment tool available. The issue was that it didn't handle the dual clutch system on the tractor at all well. The local dealer didn't have a *factory one* for the tractor but he lent us one he'd made up on a lathe. It wasn't a firm fit however, hence the need to pack it up with tape. Coupled with 4 alignment dowels, made out of bolts with heads removed, fitted into the block, the mating up process was the smoothest I'd ever encountered. What I don't understand, since I don't even know why this "alignment tool" is needed, is what happens if I don't have this special alignment tool? You need something to hold the clutch plate in the correct position as you bolt on the pressure plate. http://www.autozone.com/drivetrain/c...toyota/4runner The small end inserts into the pilot bushing/bearing on the end of the crankshaft and the splines engage the clutch splines. The pressure plate has the screws and often dowels to position it, but the clutch plate itself is free floating at that point in the assemble. If the splines and the pilot bushing aren't concentric the transmission shaft isn't going to slide into place. For $3 you want one rather than trying to eyeball the alignment as you hold the pressure plate in position and get the screws started. btw, I think my terminology has been sloppy at times; bolts have a matching nut, screws go into a threaded hole. Somehow 'bolt up the pressure plate' sounds better than 'screw up the pressure plate'. |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manualtransmission?
On 09/23/2017 08:22 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/23/2017 4:39 AM, Chaya Eve wrote: On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 15:08:54 +1000, Xeno wrote: We had such a generic alignment tool available. The issue was that it didn't handle the dual clutch system on the tractor at all well. The local dealer didn't have a *factory one* for the tractor but he lent us one he'd made up on a lathe. It wasn't a firm fit however, hence the need to pack it up with tape. Coupled with 4 alignment dowels, made out of bolts with heads removed, fitted into the block, the mating up process was the smoothest I'd ever encountered. What I don't understand, since I don't even know why this "alignment tool" is needed, is what happens if I don't have this special alignment tool? Without it you curse a lot. You may need blood pressure medication too. And if you're taking blood thinners or even common aspirin, band-aids, plenty of band-aids.... |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manualtransmission?
On 09/23/2017 04:18 AM, Chaya Eve wrote:
A friend is coming over this weekend who will give me gratis his boxed unopened HF motorcycle lift. He bought it and never used it and then crashed the bike. So he doesn't need it. I don't know exactly what HF's bike jack looks like but while mine would work and has plenty of support for a transmission you'd need at least 14" under any part of the undercarriage to get it in place. |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manualtransmission?
On 09/23/2017 02:39 AM, Chaya Eve wrote:
For example, I didn't even know the pressure plate had bolts. The DIYs I found just said "remove pressure plate" so I assumed there were no bolts. No, there are a number of them. Both removing and replacing them, you want to work your way around evenly rather than removing them one by one. The default position for a clutch is engaged so there will be considerable spring pressure. The screws themselves aren't big, usually in the 1/4 - 5/16 range so it won't be a lot of torque. Also most expect to resurface the flywheel. And most expect to replace the two "bearings", the throwout & pilot. And they expect to replace the "rear engine seal". From you description the clutch probably has quite a bit of life left and hasn't started tear things up yet.The flywheel surface may not be as smooth as a baby's but but don't get too excited by minor wear. Unless Toyota did something really strange, the throwout bearing is a loose fit on the transmission nose and it held in place by the fork on the lever. The pilot bushing usually requires a puller and driver to seat the new one. I've seated bushings with old pipe fittings or whatever else was laying around but sometimes it isn't too pretty if it's a tight press fit. Don't worry about the rear seal unless you see obvious leakage. With some engines that can turn into a whole other project. I'm not sure of what else that people routinely inspect to replace. In my case, I'm not expecting any "damage" since the transmission is essentially working fine (the clutch is merely "due" for a change based on time and miles). My pickup is 30 years old and had close to 200K miles when I replaced the clutch. My real task was replacing the throwout bearing. The OEM design was cast iron and would start to hang up; the latest one is polymer and seems to work better. Anyway I did the clutch and pressure plate while I was there and iirc it was only about $50 for the pair. They didn't need replacing. otoh, I had a Dodge pickup that had had a hard life. The clutch was slipping, no question but it came by the wear honestly hauling more than a 1/2 ton truck should. A couple of my cars suffered from my driving style when I was a kid. As my father told me "If you're going to drive like that you'd better get good at fixing stuff." Anyway, there's no 'due' for clutches in general. After I grew up, or at least got older, I stopped having clutch problems :) No mention of cleaning and safety precautions associated with same. I'm not sure what 'cleaning' is needed other than wiping off old grease. . It is said to put it in gear when aligning splines (allows output & input shaft to turn) Top gear always. The thing I didn't get is how I'm supposed to put it in gear when it's already removed from the vehicle? Is it easy to put a transmission in top gear when it's just sitting there on the garage floor without a shifter mechanism? |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manual transmission?
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 12:21:31 +1000, Xeno wrote:
No mention of what you should be inspecting for, both on bits you intend to replace and those you intend to refit. Flywheel face, for instance. This video seems to have a lot of hints about what to look for: https://youtu.be/S5xSOy03NAg No mention of cleaning and safety precautions associated with same. For example, at time 282 seconds, they cover cleaning the friction surface: https://youtu.be/S5xSOy03NAg?t=282 |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manual transmission?
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 10:22:15 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
Without it you curse a lot. You may need blood pressure medication too. Is this very first second of this video showing the alignment tool in action? https://youtu.be/NcTmlO9XN1E It seems to take a split second, but the video is artificially sped up. |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manual transmission?
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 14:47:08 +0000, Stormin' Norman
wrote: The splines on the clutch disc must line up with the splines on the flywheel. When the pressure plate is tightened in place, the clutch disc is held very firmly in place. Without aligning the splines first, you will likely have a very difficult time inserting the transmission shaft through the clutch disc and into the flywheel. Most DIYs seem to gloss over this step. As an example, this DIY at time 331 seconds, simply shows the bright red centering tool already in place! :( https://youtu.be/S5xSOy03NAg?t=331 That same video, shows at time 352 seconds, a *different* centering tool. https://youtu.be/S5xSOy03NAg?t=352 |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manual transmission?
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 12:21:31 +1000, Xeno wrote:
That movement in other than the fore and aft direction that the trans mount adapter needs to be capable of will be of great assistance here. This video, at time 92 seconds, says what you say, which is that the "crankshaft and topshaft" must be aligned "along the same axis". https://youtu.be/S5xSOy03NAg?t=92 They show that procedure of aligning the two shafts at time 409 seconds: https://youtu.be/S5xSOy03NAg?t=409 . Tip the front down an twist the front of the transmission to the driver side . Lower the transmission (most seem to do it by hand even when they have a jack???) Depends on how strong/old you are. This video, at time 62 seconds, shows a guy wrestling a Toyota transmission up but then using a regular floor jack to hold it there (but he has to adjust it a lot). https://youtu.be/NcTmlO9XN1E?t=62 |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manualtransmission?
On 9/23/2017 12:38 PM, rbowman wrote:
btw, I think my terminology has been sloppy at times; bolts have a matching nut, screws go into a threaded hole. Somehow 'bolt up the pressure plate' sounds better than 'screw up the pressure plate'. I *really* wish your definition of bolts and screws was true but the standard naming convention is "screwed" up.* ;-) https://www.mcmaster.com/#screws/=19iejis https://www.mscdirect.com/browse/Fas...navid=12108710 https://www.fastenal.com/products?r=...eners%22 %7C~ |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manual transmission?
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 12:21:31 +1000, Xeno wrote:
Learn to differentiate between pedal free play and release bearing free play - you should be able to feel two (2) distinct steps - pedal play, then release play. Some systems work on zero free play at the release bearing (e.g. carbon thrust block types) but, in the case of hydraulic systems, there is *always* a need for free play at the master cylinder end. This is to ensure correct operation of the MC hydraulics. Thanks for that information where I noticed that this video, at time 213 seconds, shows me what I think you're trying to tell me about the "release bearing" play: https://youtu.be/9UmrCl2nLKM?t=213 |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manual transmission?
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 14:47:08 +0000, Stormin' Norman
wrote: Additional hints: always replace the throwout bearing, The videos are instrumental for me to visualize what you're saying, as this one, for example, at time 195 seconds, shows that throwout bearing (aka release bearing) in action. https://youtu.be/9UmrCl2nLKM?t=195 |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manual transmission?
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 10:40:17 -0600, rbowman wrote:
And if you're taking blood thinners or even common aspirin, band-aids, plenty of band-aids.... Some videos are titled "toyota versus mechanic, round 2". |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manual transmission?
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 11:10:17 -0600, rbowman wrote:
For example, I didn't even know the pressure plate had bolts. The DIYs I found just said "remove pressure plate" so I assumed there were no bolts. No, there are a number of them. Both removing and replacing them, you want to work your way around evenly rather than removing them one by one. The default position for a clutch is engaged so there will be considerable spring pressure. The screws themselves aren't big, usually in the 1/4 - 5/16 range so it won't be a lot of torque. I see the bolt holes in this pressure plate at time 91 seconds: https://youtu.be/9UmrCl2nLKM?t=91 |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manual transmission?
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 14:57:38 +0000, Stormin' Norman
wrote: I REALLY don't think so. Hint: no splines on the flywheel. The clutch disk has to line up with the pilot bearing. Yes, you are of course correct, I made an error about spline on the flywheel. Brainfart. This seems to show exactly what you're talking about at time 142 seconds: https://youtu.be/9UmrCl2nLKM?t=142 |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manual transmission?
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 14:05:18 -0400, Ed wrote:
I *really* wish your definition of bolts and screws was true but the standard naming convention is "screwed" up.* ;-) https://www.mcmaster.com/#screws/=19iejis https://www.mscdirect.com/browse/Fas...navid=12108710 https://www.fastenal.com/products?r=...eners%22 %7C~ Personally, I use bolt when it's threaded into something that has matching threads (these are generally relatively shallow angle threads). I use screws for when it's a steeper-angled thread that "bites" into the material (often with a sharp point). Bolts generally have hex heads (for sockets) but not always. Screws generally have screwdriver notches but not always. The difference is, to me, in two things mainly: .. The angle of the threads (screw threads are steeper) .. The mating material (screws make their own mating threads) I might be wrong though as I don't follow the McMaster definition exactly. |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manual transmission?
On 9/23/2017 1:24 PM, Chaya Eve wrote:
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 10:40:17 -0600, rbowman wrote: And if you're taking blood thinners or even common aspirin, band-aids, plenty of band-aids.... Some videos are titled "toyota versus mechanic, round 2". Maybe brutal but Fiat vs Mechanic is a death match. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manualtransmission?
On 09/23/2017 12:24 PM, Chaya Eve wrote:
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 10:40:17 -0600, rbowman wrote: And if you're taking blood thinners or even common aspirin, band-aids, plenty of band-aids.... Some videos are titled "toyota versus mechanic, round 2". Work on cars long enough and you figure they're all Christine's siblings. I had a '60 Plymouth that I'm certain was a relative. It started as a pushbutton Torqueflite and ended up as a floor shift manual. That's when I learned about endless projects. Among other difficulties the parking brake for the AT was a drum on the end of the transmission. I wasn't concerned about that until the lack of a safety brake was pointed out to me by a State Trooper. So, next project was swapping out the rear axle for one that had a safety brake and fabricating the linkage. No big deal after inventing the whole hydraulic clutch system from miscellaneous parts laying around. Kept me out of trouble, I guess. |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manualtransmission?
On 09/23/2017 12:29 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/23/2017 1:24 PM, Chaya Eve wrote: On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 10:40:17 -0600, rbowman wrote: And if you're taking blood thinners or even common aspirin, band-aids, plenty of band-aids.... Some videos are titled "toyota versus mechanic, round 2". Maybe brutal but Fiat vs Mechanic is a death match. I had a Fiat Spyder but it didn't last long enough for me to work on it. After a few heated discussions with the car salesman we worked out a deal where I got a Mustang. I think the promise to park the damn Fiat in his office got his attention. I did do a rebuild on an Alfa Romeo Giulietta though. Wet sleeve engine? Who does that anymore? I also have a couple of scars from when a friend rolled his in which I was a passenger. They do not hold up well going 60mph upside down and backwards. I never had an Italian bike. Desmodromic valves are too weird even for me. |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manualtransmission?
On 09/23/2017 11:59 AM, Chaya Eve wrote:
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 10:22:15 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote: Without it you curse a lot. You may need blood pressure medication too. Is this very first second of this video showing the alignment tool in action? https://youtu.be/NcTmlO9XN1E It seems to take a split second, but the video is artificially sped up. Yeah, that's a pretty good video. It just holds the clutch plate in place and then you pull it out when the pressure plate is snugged down. The video also illustrates what I meant about working around tightening the pressure plate screws gradually and in a pattern around the pressure plate. You'll also want to do the gradual thing when removing it or it will start to cock and make removing the screws difficult. Once you've backed them out enough to release the spring pressure all around then you remove them one by one. |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manualtransmission?
On 09/23/2017 11:59 AM, Chaya Eve wrote:
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 14:47:08 +0000, Stormin' Norman wrote: The splines on the clutch disc must line up with the splines on the flywheel. When the pressure plate is tightened in place, the clutch disc is held very firmly in place. Without aligning the splines first, you will likely have a very difficult time inserting the transmission shaft through the clutch disc and into the flywheel. Most DIYs seem to gloss over this step. As an example, this DIY at time 331 seconds, simply shows the bright red centering tool already in place! :( https://youtu.be/S5xSOy03NAg?t=331 That same video, shows at time 352 seconds, a *different* centering tool. https://youtu.be/S5xSOy03NAg?t=352 It's one of those things you don't necessarily think about that screws up someone without experience in the job. It's like the whole angle discussion. They might show sliding the transmission back in place like a stick of butter in a hot frying pan but after you've laid on your back sweating and cursing trying to rattle a heavy chunk of metal just right to get it started in the splines you realize the importance of being able to line everything up nicely. |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manualtransmission?
On 09/23/2017 11:59 AM, Chaya Eve wrote:
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 12:21:31 +1000, Xeno wrote: That movement in other than the fore and aft direction that the trans mount adapter needs to be capable of will be of great assistance here. This video, at time 92 seconds, says what you say, which is that the "crankshaft and topshaft" must be aligned "along the same axis". https://youtu.be/S5xSOy03NAg?t=92 They show that procedure of aligning the two shafts at time 409 seconds: https://youtu.be/S5xSOy03NAg?t=409 . Tip the front down an twist the front of the transmission to the driver side . Lower the transmission (most seem to do it by hand even when they have a jack???) Depends on how strong/old you are. This video, at time 62 seconds, shows a guy wrestling a Toyota transmission up but then using a regular floor jack to hold it there (but he has to adjust it a lot). https://youtu.be/NcTmlO9XN1E?t=62 Yup. Been there, done that, but without the dog... There seems to be audio so that guy is very self controlled. Generally you last there screaming "F**k! F**k!" like some New Age mantra. Then when your well meaning, nice old lady neighbor wanders over to ask if you're all right you sort of have to come up with a polite reassurance through gritted teeth hoping she'll go back to her soap opera. It's really fun when the transmission is heavy enough to challenge your bench press capabilities and you realize you've got one more rep left before it's going to come down on you. |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manualtransmission?
On 09/23/2017 12:05 PM, Ed wrote:
On 9/23/2017 12:38 PM, rbowman wrote: btw, I think my terminology has been sloppy at times; bolts have a matching nut, screws go into a threaded hole. Somehow 'bolt up the pressure plate' sounds better than 'screw up the pressure plate'. I *really* wish your definition of bolts and screws was true but the standard naming convention is "screwed" up. ;-) https://www.mcmaster.com/#screws/=19iejis https://www.mscdirect.com/browse/Fas...navid=12108710 https://www.fastenal.com/products?r=...eners%22 %7C~ Yeah, it most definitely is a gray area for terminology. I've got to admit in my mental processes screws start turning into bolts at around 3/8" That second link had me guessing. I don't refer to Chicago screws as 'sex bolts' :) |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manualtransmission?
On 09/23/2017 12:28 PM, Chaya Eve wrote:
Personally, I use bolt when it's threaded into something that has matching threads (these are generally relatively shallow angle threads). I use screws for when it's a steeper-angled thread that "bites" into the material (often with a sharp point). Now you're getting into wood screws versus machine screws... That adds a whole new layer of ambiguity. I won't even go into the wondrous world of straight, Philips, Robertson, Torx, and whatever Apple dreamed up this month to make it almost impossible to take their stuff apart. |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manualtransmission?
On 09/23/2017 12:24 PM, Chaya Eve wrote:
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 14:47:08 +0000, Stormin' Norman wrote: Additional hints: always replace the throwout bearing, The videos are instrumental for me to visualize what you're saying, as this one, for example, at time 195 seconds, shows that throwout bearing (aka release bearing) in action. https://youtu.be/9UmrCl2nLKM?t=195 I don't know what we did before videos and digital photography. The last Yaris I had came without a radio. Putting a radio in these days means starting down around the console with a plastic putty knife popping of various trim pieces until you work your way up to the speedometer assembly. Thanks the Gods for the forum's step by step photos. Even for some projects where I'd draw a sketch to make sure I'd get everything back in the same place I can now just take a picture. |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manual transmission?
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 18:32:40 +0000, Stormin' Norman wrote:
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 17:59:25 +0000 (UTC), Chaya Eve wrote: On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 14:47:08 +0000, Stormin' Norman wrote: The splines on the clutch disc must line up with the splines on the flywheel. When the pressure plate is tightened in place, the clutch disc is held very firmly in place. Without aligning the splines first, you will likely have a very difficult time inserting the transmission shaft through the clutch disc and into the flywheel. Most DIYs seem to gloss over this step. As an example, this DIY at time 331 seconds, simply shows the bright red centering tool already in place! :( https://youtu.be/S5xSOy03NAg?t=331 That same video, shows at time 352 seconds, a *different* centering tool. https://youtu.be/S5xSOy03NAg?t=352 I did a search on "using clutch alignment tool" and came up with this video: I don't recall using anything but a broomstick and my eyeballs last time I did a clutch. Of course that was a '66 F-100 3-speed. I bought a new flywheel - it was only 50 bucks. Not saying that's the same as a 4Runner, and the OP should go with the flow. I did ruin a pressure plate on my VW, and had to do the job twice. Don't support your trans - engine in the case of the VW - in sand. |
How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manualtransmission?
On 24/09/2017 6:21 AM, rbowman wrote:
On 09/23/2017 12:29 PM, AMuzi wrote: On 9/23/2017 1:24 PM, Chaya Eve wrote: On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 10:40:17 -0600, rbowman wrote: And if you're taking blood thinners or even common aspirin, band-aids, plenty of band-aids.... Some videos are titled "toyota versus mechanic, round 2". Maybe brutal but Fiat vs Mechanic is a death match. I had a Fiat Spyder but it didn't last long enough for me to work on it. After a few heated discussions with the car salesman we worked out a deal where I got a Mustang. I think the promise to park the damn Fiat in his office got his attention. I did do a rebuild on an Alfa Romeo Giulietta though. Wet sleeve engine? Who does that anymore? I also have a couple of scars from when a friend rolled his in which I was a passenger. They do not hold up well going 60mph upside down and backwards. I never had an Italian bike. Desmodromic valves are too weird even for me. The concept is good, the execution sucks. -- Xeno |
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