I'm having a bit of a problem getting bids for a new furnace. I'm
hoping that some folks in the HVAC profession might be willing to
give me their opinion here.

I've qualified for a 'this old house' program offered by our county
to make older homes more energy efficient. In my case, the first
priority identified by the program is replacing my 1970s-era furnace
with a new high-efficiency furnace. I was told I could call any
contractor, and to submit at least three bids to the program
administrators for review. I was told I could indicate my preference
as to which contractor I'd rather go with.

The first company I had out came highly recommended by my brother.
They'd installed a/c for him a year ago, and the estimator had spent
a considerable amount of time running a Manual J and coming up with
two proposals for my brother to consider. He was very pleased with
their quality of work and the time they spent explaining the issues
with him, which is why I called them. I even arranged to have the
same estimator who'd done my brother's bid come to do my proposal.

Unfortunately, as soon as the guy showed up and learned my furnace
replacement was going to be handled under this program, he lost all
interest. He looked at my old furnace, rapidly wrote up a brief
proposal, and began to leave. I had to stop him to ask him some of
the questions that should have come up in a proper proposal process.
He told me the program would not allow me to pick the contractor and
since they'd award the job to the lowest bidder, it wasn't worth
spending any more time with me.

The estimator from the next highly-recommended company arrived, and
the process took even less time. As soon as he heard it was a
replacement under this program, he told me they only supplied one
furnace model under the program, and that he'd fax a bid to the
program. He then left.

I then called the third company, one I've done business with in the
past. They told me they don't work with this program, so they're not
interested in meeting my heating-a/c needs this time.

Okay. I've got a call into the program director, because she had
told me I'd have a choice of contractors and a choice of installs,
subject to certain pricing parameters, and that's not what the
contractors are saying. If this program provides furnace
replacement, yet is so focused on the lowest bid that it won't
permit a contractor to properly size the package to the home, it's
probably wasting money. I'm not sure if getting a (basically) free
furnace under a one-size-fits-most proposal is a better deal than
paying several thousand out of my own pocket for a properly sized
furnace. And the fact that I'm being treated like a leper by the
quality HVAC contractors scares the hell out of me.

Is there anything I can do to make this job more appealing to a
quality HVAC contractor? I don't want to hide the fact that this is
a 'this old house' replacement program deal from a prospective
contractor, but I'm floored at the difference it makes in how my
proposal is being handled. Should I call a company and offer to pay
for a proper proposal?

Thanks in advance for any comments or suggestions,

HellT

On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 15:01:03 -0500, Hell Toupee
wrote:


Is there anything I can do to make this job more appealing to a
quality HVAC contractor? I don't want to hide the fact that this is
a 'this old house' replacement program deal from a prospective
contractor, but I'm floored at the difference it makes in how my
proposal is being handled.

Should I call a company and offer to pay
for a proper proposal?

I almost missed your last statement. Lets say you get the contractor
to quote it as a straight replacement job. Then get the program
agency to counter offer whatever they think it is worth. Pay the
contractor the program's approved amount to get your program paperwork
through. Pay the contractor the balance he asked for off-book. If
this is not illegal then it might help you get your subsidy and the
contractor his real worth.

Pay for a load calclation, You are getting a FREE several thousand
dollar deal so why be a cheap ass. You are suprised the salesman dont
want to stay , why should they , they know the deal. You are wondering
if you should forget the deal, yea thats dumb. Here you could pay extra
for a better unit or even tip a few people. But dont be to generous
its all fair price for a fair job. You are lucky to have this offer. I
dont know yor local but look into a 94% furnace and pay the upgrade if
you cant get it free

I went through a similar experience in the past. In my case, it was a grant
program for nonprofits and the nonprofits had to get 3 bids from contractors
in order to qualify for the grant money.

Contractors don't like to get involved with these deals for a number of
reasons. One is that they know you have to get 3 bids, so they know up
front that -- at best -- they have a 1 in 3 chance of even getting the job
in the first place. Then, if they get the job, there are usually questions
about how and when they will get paid. Most grant programs like this are
slow to release the money to the contractor and/or they hold back money
until final inspections and other paperwork are completed. Time is money
for the contractors, so they don't want to spend their time on a lot of
bureaucracy, and they don't want to spend time answering to a third party in
the transaction. My guess is that the grant funders aren't going to give
you the money up front. Instead, they are going to require the contractor
to do the work and then, when all of the paperwork and inspections are done
and submitted, they'll issue a payment to the contractor in 30 to 60 days.
Your situation might be different than that, but that is how it often works
in other programs.

Calling the program director is a good first step. She can clarify how it
really works in terms of the money being paid to the contractor who does the
work. She will also probably say there are rules against her naming or
suggesting any particular contractors that you can use, but you can always
ask. Maybe she'll have a list of contractors in your area who have already
participated in the program. If so, they'll know how it all works and might
be willing to submit a bid.

Another option would be to try going with large companies (like Sears) and
just say what you are thinking of having done and ask for an estimate. You
don't need to tell them that you are getting 3 bids and you don't need to
tell them you are going to use grant funds to pay for the work. After you
get each estimate, just say you need to think about it. Then, after you
have 3, submit them and ask to be approved for funding. Once you are
approved, tell the company you are going to use that you found out you
qualify for funding for the work through the program. Tell them this is how
the program works and ask if they would be willing to accept payment through
that process.

The last option, if all else fails, would be to contact a general
contractor. Explain what the problem is, and that you can't qualify for the
funding unless you have three bids. Ask if he/she uses a number of
different subcontractors for HVAC work and if he/she can get 3 of them to
look at the job and prepare bids for you. Then you'll have 3 different bids
from 3 different companies that you can submit to the program when
requesting funding approval.

Good luck.

"Hell Toupee" wrote in message
...
I'm having a bit of a problem getting bids for a new furnace. I'm
hoping that some folks in the HVAC profession might be willing to
give me their opinion here.

I've qualified for a 'this old house' program offered by our county
to make older homes more energy efficient. In my case, the first
priority identified by the program is replacing my 1970s-era furnace
with a new high-efficiency furnace. I was told I could call any
contractor, and to submit at least three bids to the program
administrators for review. I was told I could indicate my preference
as to which contractor I'd rather go with.

The first company I had out came highly recommended by my brother.
They'd installed a/c for him a year ago, and the estimator had spent
a considerable amount of time running a Manual J and coming up with
two proposals for my brother to consider. He was very pleased with
their quality of work and the time they spent explaining the issues
with him, which is why I called them. I even arranged to have the
same estimator who'd done my brother's bid come to do my proposal.

Unfortunately, as soon as the guy showed up and learned my furnace
replacement was going to be handled under this program, he lost all
interest. He looked at my old furnace, rapidly wrote up a brief
proposal, and began to leave. I had to stop him to ask him some of
the questions that should have come up in a proper proposal process.
He told me the program would not allow me to pick the contractor and
since they'd award the job to the lowest bidder, it wasn't worth
spending any more time with me.

The estimator from the next highly-recommended company arrived, and
the process took even less time. As soon as he heard it was a
replacement under this program, he told me they only supplied one
furnace model under the program, and that he'd fax a bid to the
program. He then left.

I then called the third company, one I've done business with in the
past. They told me they don't work with this program, so they're not
interested in meeting my heating-a/c needs this time.

Okay. I've got a call into the program director, because she had
told me I'd have a choice of contractors and a choice of installs,
subject to certain pricing parameters, and that's not what the
contractors are saying. If this program provides furnace
replacement, yet is so focused on the lowest bid that it won't
permit a contractor to properly size the package to the home, it's
probably wasting money. I'm not sure if getting a (basically) free
furnace under a one-size-fits-most proposal is a better deal than
paying several thousand out of my own pocket for a properly sized
furnace. And the fact that I'm being treated like a leper by the
quality HVAC contractors scares the hell out of me.

Is there anything I can do to make this job more appealing to a
quality HVAC contractor? I don't want to hide the fact that this is
a 'this old house' replacement program deal from a prospective
contractor, but I'm floored at the difference it makes in how my
proposal is being handled. Should I call a company and offer to pay
for a proper proposal?

Thanks in advance for any comments or suggestions,

HellT

"Hell Toupee" wrote in message ...
I'm having a bit of a problem getting bids for a new furnace. I'm
hoping that some folks in the HVAC profession might be willing to
give me their opinion here.

I've qualified for a 'this old house' program offered by our county
to make older homes more energy efficient. In my case, the first
priority identified by the program is replacing my 1970s-era furnace
with a new high-efficiency furnace. I was told I could call any
contractor, and to submit at least three bids to the program
administrators for review. I was told I could indicate my preference
as to which contractor I'd rather go with.

The first company I had out came highly recommended by my brother.
They'd installed a/c for him a year ago, and the estimator had spent
a considerable amount of time running a Manual J and coming up with
two proposals for my brother to consider. He was very pleased with
their quality of work and the time they spent explaining the issues
with him, which is why I called them. I even arranged to have the
same estimator who'd done my brother's bid come to do my proposal.

Unfortunately, as soon as the guy showed up and learned my furnace
replacement was going to be handled under this program, he lost all
interest. He looked at my old furnace, rapidly wrote up a brief
proposal, and began to leave. I had to stop him to ask him some of
the questions that should have come up in a proper proposal process.
He told me the program would not allow me to pick the contractor and
since they'd award the job to the lowest bidder, it wasn't worth
spending any more time with me.

The estimator from the next highly-recommended company arrived, and
the process took even less time. As soon as he heard it was a
replacement under this program, he told me they only supplied one
furnace model under the program, and that he'd fax a bid to the
program. He then left.

I then called the third company, one I've done business with in the
past. They told me they don't work with this program, so they're not
interested in meeting my heating-a/c needs this time.

Okay. I've got a call into the program director, because she had
told me I'd have a choice of contractors and a choice of installs,
subject to certain pricing parameters, and that's not what the
contractors are saying. If this program provides furnace
replacement, yet is so focused on the lowest bid that it won't
permit a contractor to properly size the package to the home, it's
probably wasting money. I'm not sure if getting a (basically) free
furnace under a one-size-fits-most proposal is a better deal than
paying several thousand out of my own pocket for a properly sized
furnace. And the fact that I'm being treated like a leper by the
quality HVAC contractors scares the hell out of me.

Is there anything I can do to make this job more appealing to a
quality HVAC contractor? I don't want to hide the fact that this is
a 'this old house' replacement program deal from a prospective
contractor, but I'm floored at the difference it makes in how my
proposal is being handled. Should I call a company and offer to pay
for a proper proposal?

Thanks in advance for any comments or suggestions,

HellT

This is Turtle.

I hate to say this but when you have a third party paying and the second party taking the bids. You are just about garrentied the
bid will go to the cheapest bidder. Most professional will not bid low as hell to drum up work like a Hack will. So the job is
deston to go to the Cheapest bid and Cheapest workmanship that can be gotten.

I'm a HVAC contractor and i will tell you that when you tell me about the 3 bids and a TV show / third party is going to give the
work to you after the show. You & I know sure as hell they will use the cheapest bidder. I bid a little everyonce in a while when my
regular Commercial customer business is slow but I don't like to bid any job when price is the key to getting the job. If you want
cheap job and bid. you can go to Home depot and find out who does their work and call that contractor to come throw it in and leave.
Even the Federal and State Govenments know about the cheap bid ideal. They will not take the highest bidder or the lowest bidder and
pick out of the middle for a contractor. The last 3 or 4 times that I have submitted a bid. i was the winning bidder on about 3 but
was not the highest bidder or the lowest bidder.

Don't look down on the HVAC contractor for seeing a Cheap job in the making and just don't want any of it. Most professional HVAC
installers will not get cheap on the equipment and installation and will just move on. I will say this i have enough of business to
keep me from going the cheap route and i don't think I could look you in the eye when i collected the money for the job at the end.
So I will just bid any job as to doing it right and no short cuts. If you want cheap i will just let the Hack take care of you.

TURTLE


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That's about what I was thinking -- offer to pay the balance
between the program and the real price of the job.

--

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com


"KLM" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 15:01:03 -0500, Hell Toupee

wrote:


Is there anything I can do to make this job more appealing
to a
quality HVAC contractor? I don't want to hide the fact that
this is
a 'this old house' replacement program deal from a
prospective
contractor, but I'm floored at the difference it makes in
how my
proposal is being handled.

Should I call a company and offer to pay
for a proper proposal?

I almost missed your last statement. Lets say you get the
contractor
to quote it as a straight replacement job. Then get the
program
agency to counter offer whatever they think it is worth.
Pay the
contractor the program's approved amount to get your program
paperwork
through. Pay the contractor the balance he asked for
off-book. If
this is not illegal then it might help you get your subsidy
and the
contractor his real worth.