A friend of mine is after me to buy a new car** and she found the
Buick Cascada. I've wanted a Buick for a long time, because I like GM
cars, but the Chevy I-forget-the-model-name was so cheap. Bucket
seats but not even a center console. And I've avoided Ford and
rice-burners. And the Cadillac seemed showy, so that left a
Buick. And the Skylark was beautful (And my Buick was okay too. I
forget its model name. Centurion?)

But the Cascada comes standard with 20" wheels, and they say that like
it's a good thing. Well if you're in the Gran Prix races, I'm sure
it's a good thing, but I like a comfortable ride. They don't even
mention smaller optional wheels (although I'm sure I could get them if
I pay someone to go to the Chevy dealer and get them there.

(It also has "sport-tuned suspension" I don't want that either, but I
suspect it's not like a violin that you can retune to something else.

It also comes with a black top, no other choice given. Don't these
designers ever drive the cars they design? It's like the charge-card
email notifications all over again. (I had two convertibles with
black tops. When the second one needed a new top, I changed to green,
to match the turquoise car, which was imo primarily green, and it was
much better. Since then I've had tan, a rather light version of tan.)

I suppose if I order the card before it's built, I can get a tan top,
and they probably "won't charge me much extra", but any negotiation on
the price will be over.

I've never bought a new car, but the idea was to get what I wanted,
not what I don't want. For $35,000 dollars, which I gather is not
much these days, but they don't offer to let me spend more and get
what I want.

**and indeed it will be possible to get a 7-year old car like I like,
but v. hard I think to get a 3, 4, or 5 year old car, because they
stopped making Sebrings, Solara convertibles, and maybe only Mustangs
are left.

Any other new or late model American convertibles bigger than a Miata
for sale these days?? At least as big as a mustang.

On 05/08/2017 04:31 AM, Micky wrote:
A friend of mine is after me to buy a new car** and she found the
Buick Cascada.


Ever notice women love to spend money? What's next? A new kitchen?

On 5/8/17 3:31 AM, Micky wrote:
A friend of mine is after me to buy a new car** and she found the
Buick Cascada. I've wanted a Buick for a long time, because I like GM
cars, but the Chevy I-forget-the-model-name was so cheap. Bucket
seats but not even a center console. And I've avoided Ford and
rice-burners. And the Cadillac seemed showy, so that left a
Buick. And the Skylark was beautful (And my Buick was okay too. I
forget its model name. Centurion?)

Cut a bunch.
Consumer Reports has an auto issue. Look through the magazine racks
of your grocery store, Walmart, etc. Some of the car magazine
publishers had
an issue showing all of the model year's new buggies.
A number of the "foreign" models are built in the U.S.A. if that's
an issue.

On 05/08/2017 3:31 AM, Micky wrote:
....

Any other new or late model American convertibles bigger than a Miata
for sale these days?? At least as big as a mustang.

Camaro

And on the subject topic, the 20" rims will make for a better ride than
the smaller. The only one I would strongly recommend to avoid is the
19" and only because they're so much less common that tires are in
ordinately expensive. I didn't think about it when bought the Enclave
some years ago is how happen to now know...

--

On 5/8/2017 4:31 AM, Micky wrote:
A friend of mine is after me to buy a new car** and she found the
Buick Cascada. I've wanted a Buick for a long time, because I like GM
cars, but the Chevy I-forget-the-model-name was so cheap. Bucket
seats but not even a center console. And I've avoided Ford and
rice-burners. And the Cadillac seemed showy, so that left a
Buick. And the Skylark was beautful (And my Buick was okay too. I
forget its model name. Centurion?)

But the Cascada comes standard with 20" wheels, and they say that like
it's a good thing. Well if you're in the Gran Prix races, I'm sure
it's a good thing, but I like a comfortable ride. They don't even
mention smaller optional wheels (although I'm sure I could get them if
I pay someone to go to the Chevy dealer and get them there.

(It also has "sport-tuned suspension" I don't want that either, but I
suspect it's not like a violin that you can retune to something else.

It also comes with a black top, no other choice given. Don't these
designers ever drive the cars they design? It's like the charge-card
email notifications all over again. (I had two convertibles with
black tops. When the second one needed a new top, I changed to green,
to match the turquoise car, which was imo primarily green, and it was
much better. Since then I've had tan, a rather light version of tan.)

I suppose if I order the card before it's built, I can get a tan top,
and they probably "won't charge me much extra", but any negotiation on
the price will be over.

I've never bought a new car, but the idea was to get what I wanted,
not what I don't want. For $35,000 dollars, which I gather is not
much these days, but they don't offer to let me spend more and get
what I want.



Bigger wheel are as much for appearance as anything else. Remember when
they went to 14' for a while back in 1958? Made the car lower. The
larger diameter will give you more miles on he tires as it travels
further each revolution.

As for ride, most tires today have low aspect ratio. Good for cornering,
not so much for soft ride.

Not many convertibles to choose from thee days. Maybe they got better,
but I no longer drive Buicks after the last one fell apart. It was a
2001 LeSabre Limited loaded with espensive problems, as all my GM cars
had. I buy quality cars by Hyundia now including a Korea made Genesis.
Love driving it.

Improvements in suspension design
have allowed for lower profile tires with
larger diameter rims - up to a point. As
Pawlowski stated, those 20+" WAGON
WHEELS are cosmetic, nothing more
than libido boosters or for cruising the
beach parking lot on a Friday evening.

On Mon, 8 May 2017 05:40:34 -0700 (PDT), wrote:


Improvements in suspension design

If it can give an adequate ride with 20" rims, wouldn't that same
improved design give an even more comfortable ride with 15" rims?

It also has a sports-tuned suspension, which that girl who wants me to
buy a new car likes. I like a soft, comfy suspension, so my
passengers can sleep.

have allowed for lower profile tires with
larger diameter rims - up to a point. As
Pawlowski stated, those 20+" WAGON
WHEELS are cosmetic, nothing more
than libido boosters or for cruising the
beach parking lot on a Friday evening.

So what is a reasonable size wheel?

Micky wrote: "On Mon, 8 May 2017 05:40:34 -0700 (PDT), wrote:


Improvements in suspension design

If it can give an adequate ride with 20" rims, wouldn't that same
improved design give an even more comfortable ride with 15" rims?

It also has a sports-tuned suspension, which that girl who wants me to
buy a new car likes. I like a soft, comfy suspension, so my
passengers can sleep.

have allowed for lower profile tires with
larger diameter rims - up to a point. As
Pawlowski stated, those 20+" WAGON
WHEELS are cosmetic, nothing more
than libido boosters or for cruising the
beach parking lot on a Friday evening.

"So what is a reasonable size wheel? "

15-16" diameter.

On 5/8/2017 7:09 PM, wrote:
Micky wrote: "On Mon, 8 May 2017 05:40:34 -0700 (PDT), wrote:


Improvements in suspension design

If it can give an adequate ride with 20" rims, wouldn't that same
improved design give an even more comfortable ride with 15" rims?

It also has a sports-tuned suspension, which that girl who wants me to
buy a new car likes. I like a soft, comfy suspension, so my
passengers can sleep.

have allowed for lower profile tires with
larger diameter rims - up to a point. As
Pawlowski stated, those 20+" WAGON
WHEELS are cosmetic, nothing more
than libido boosters or for cruising the
beach parking lot on a Friday evening.

"So what is a reasonable size wheel?"

15-16" diameter.


Another fa ctor is the aspect ratio of the tire as it can change the OD
of the wheel a bit, next is the roads you travel on. Better to hit a pot
hole or bump with a larger wheel/tire. Just as the difference in
hitting a curb with a bicycle wheel or a chair canister. One takes the
bump better.

On Mon, 08 May 2017 22:16:00 +0300, Micky wrote:

On Mon, 8 May 2017 05:40:34 -0700 (PDT), wrote:


Improvements in suspension design

If it can give an adequate ride with 20" rims, wouldn't that same
improved design give an even more comfortable ride with 15" rims?

It also has a sports-tuned suspension, which that girl who wants me to
buy a new car likes. I like a soft, comfy suspension, so my
passengers can sleep.

have allowed for lower profile tires with
larger diameter rims - up to a point. As
Pawlowski stated, those 20+" WAGON
WHEELS are cosmetic, nothing more
than libido boosters or for cruising the
beach parking lot on a Friday evening.

So what is a reasonable size wheel?
Depends on the car, but whatever sized rim allows a 70 series tire to
be the right rolling diameter is about as good as it gets. Not only
the right rolling diameter, but fits the wheelwell to make it look
decent, and llows full suspension and steering movement without
hitting body or frame. Different for each vehicle.

16 inchers fit the bill for the majority of todays cars.

On 5/8/2017 9:29 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 08 May 2017 22:16:00 +0300, Micky wrote:

On Mon, 8 May 2017 05:40:34 -0700 (PDT), wrote:


Improvements in suspension design

If it can give an adequate ride with 20" rims, wouldn't that same
improved design give an even more comfortable ride with 15" rims?

It also has a sports-tuned suspension, which that girl who wants me to
buy a new car likes. I like a soft, comfy suspension, so my
passengers can sleep.

have allowed for lower profile tires with
larger diameter rims - up to a point. As
Pawlowski stated, those 20+" WAGON
WHEELS are cosmetic, nothing more
than libido boosters or for cruising the
beach parking lot on a Friday evening.

So what is a reasonable size wheel?
Depends on the car, but whatever sized rim allows a 70 series tire to
be the right rolling diameter is about as good as it gets. Not only
the right rolling diameter, but fits the wheelwell to make it look
decent, and llows full suspension and steering movement without
hitting body or frame. Different for each vehicle.

16 inchers fit the bill for the majority of todays cars.


Yes, and many offer 17 or 18 on the upscale models. Common to also have
a $12,000 price difference between the basic and fancy models of the
same car.

On Mon, 8 May 2017 08:12:47 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Bigger wheel are as much for appearance as anything else. Remember when
they went to 14' for a while back in 1958? Made the car lower. The
larger diameter will give you more miles on he tires as it travels
further each revolution.

As for ride, most tires today have low aspect ratio. Good for cornering,
not so much for soft ride.

Not many convertibles to choose from thee days. Maybe they got better,
but I no longer drive Buicks after the last one fell apart. It was a
2001 LeSabre Limited loaded with espensive problems, as all my GM cars
had. I buy quality cars by Hyundia now including a Korea made Genesis.
Love driving it.

There are several reasons for larger diameter wheels, none of which is styling.

1. Larger diameter wheels allow larger diameter brake rotors that will result in a greater mechanical
advantage. This results in increased stopping power.

2. Larger diameter wheels, for a given rolling radius, reduces the vehicle's un-sprung weight which will
allow the tire to remain on the road, where it's suppose to be, improving safety and handling.

3. Larger diameter wheels in conjunction with lower profile tires will improve handling as well.

Styling is nothing more than an offshoot of the above.

On Monday, May 8, 2017 at 12:05:35 PM UTC-4, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Mon, 8 May 2017 08:12:47 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Bigger wheel are as much for appearance as anything else. Remember when
they went to 14' for a while back in 1958? Made the car lower. The
larger diameter will give you more miles on he tires as it travels
further each revolution.

As for ride, most tires today have low aspect ratio. Good for cornering,
not so much for soft ride.

Not many convertibles to choose from thee days. Maybe they got better,
but I no longer drive Buicks after the last one fell apart. It was a
2001 LeSabre Limited loaded with espensive problems, as all my GM cars
had. I buy quality cars by Hyundia now including a Korea made Genesis.
Love driving it.

There are several reasons for larger diameter wheels, none of which is styling.

1. Larger diameter wheels allow larger diameter brake rotors that will result in a greater mechanical
advantage. This results in increased stopping power.

Agree


2. Larger diameter wheels, for a given rolling radius, reduces the vehicle's un-sprung weight which will
allow the tire to remain on the road, where it's suppose to be, improving safety and handling.


I don't see why it would necessarily have to be true that for a given
rolling radius, larger diameter wheels reduce the un-sprung weight.
For starters, there are all kinds of wheel styles and I would think
the weight will vary among them. Plus, I don't think Micky is talking
about a "given rolling radius", sounds like he just wants smaller wheels.



3. Larger diameter wheels in conjunction with lower profile tires will improve handling as well.

Styling is nothing more than an offshoot of the above.

I'd say for many cars, probably most, styling, having the wheels look
cool, is more important to the customer than all the above. They
paint brake calipers for example, I don't suppose that has anything
to do with performance either.

On Mon, 8 May 2017 09:19:30 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote:

On Monday, May 8, 2017 at 12:05:35 PM UTC-4, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Mon, 8 May 2017 08:12:47 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Bigger wheel are as much for appearance as anything else. Remember when
they went to 14' for a while back in 1958? Made the car lower. The
larger diameter will give you more miles on he tires as it travels
further each revolution.

As for ride, most tires today have low aspect ratio. Good for cornering,
not so much for soft ride.

Not many convertibles to choose from thee days. Maybe they got better,
but I no longer drive Buicks after the last one fell apart. It was a
2001 LeSabre Limited loaded with espensive problems, as all my GM cars
had. I buy quality cars by Hyundia now including a Korea made Genesis.
Love driving it.

There are several reasons for larger diameter wheels, none of which is styling.

1. Larger diameter wheels allow larger diameter brake rotors that will result in a greater mechanical
advantage. This results in increased stopping power.

Agree


2. Larger diameter wheels, for a given rolling radius, reduces the vehicle's un-sprung weight which will
allow the tire to remain on the road, where it's suppose to be, improving safety and handling.


I don't see why it would necessarily have to be true that for a given
rolling radius, larger diameter wheels reduce the un-sprung weight.

The larger diameter wheel will have a considerably greater area of space between its' spokes than a smaller
diameter wheel. Therefore, as we all know, air weighs less than an equal volume of wheel or tire.

For starters, there are all kinds of wheel styles and I would think
the weight will vary among them. Plus, I don't think Micky is talking
about a "given rolling radius", sounds like he just wants smaller wheels.

We're never sure what Mickey is talking about.

3. Larger diameter wheels in conjunction with lower profile tires will improve handling as well.

Styling is nothing more than an offshoot of the above.

I'd say for many cars, probably most, styling, having the wheels look
cool, is more important to the customer than all the above. They
paint brake calipers for example, I don't suppose that has anything
to do with performance either.

Whatever.

On Mon, 08 May 2017 11:42:05 -0500
Gordon Shumway wrote:

Whatever.

Very clever answer...

On Monday, May 8, 2017 at 12:42:39 PM UTC-4, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Mon, 8 May 2017 09:19:30 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote:

On Monday, May 8, 2017 at 12:05:35 PM UTC-4, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Mon, 8 May 2017 08:12:47 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Bigger wheel are as much for appearance as anything else. Remember when
they went to 14' for a while back in 1958? Made the car lower. The
larger diameter will give you more miles on he tires as it travels
further each revolution.

As for ride, most tires today have low aspect ratio. Good for cornering,
not so much for soft ride.

Not many convertibles to choose from thee days. Maybe they got better,
but I no longer drive Buicks after the last one fell apart. It was a
2001 LeSabre Limited loaded with espensive problems, as all my GM cars
had. I buy quality cars by Hyundia now including a Korea made Genesis.
Love driving it.

There are several reasons for larger diameter wheels, none of which is styling.

1. Larger diameter wheels allow larger diameter brake rotors that will result in a greater mechanical
advantage. This results in increased stopping power.

Agree


2. Larger diameter wheels, for a given rolling radius, reduces the vehicle's un-sprung weight which will
allow the tire to remain on the road, where it's suppose to be, improving safety and handling.


I don't see why it would necessarily have to be true that for a given
rolling radius, larger diameter wheels reduce the un-sprung weight.

The larger diameter wheel will have a considerably greater area of space between its' spokes than a smaller
diameter wheel. Therefore, as we all know, air weighs less than an equal volume of wheel or tire.


So, a 20" wheel weighs less than the same design wheel in 18"? 16"
14""? You might want to rethink that one. The larger wheel has more
metal due to the length of it's spokes and the metal around it's
circumference. We all know that more metal weighs more.

On Mon, 08 May 2017 11:42:05 -0500, Gordon Shumway
wrote:

On Mon, 8 May 2017 09:19:30 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote:

On Monday, May 8, 2017 at 12:05:35 PM UTC-4, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Mon, 8 May 2017 08:12:47 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Bigger wheel are as much for appearance as anything else. Remember when
they went to 14' for a while back in 1958? Made the car lower. The
larger diameter will give you more miles on he tires as it travels
further each revolution.

As for ride, most tires today have low aspect ratio. Good for cornering,
not so much for soft ride.

Not many convertibles to choose from thee days. Maybe they got better,
but I no longer drive Buicks after the last one fell apart. It was a
2001 LeSabre Limited loaded with espensive problems, as all my GM cars
had. I buy quality cars by Hyundia now including a Korea made Genesis.
Love driving it.

There are several reasons for larger diameter wheels, none of which is styling.

1. Larger diameter wheels allow larger diameter brake rotors that will result in a greater mechanical
advantage. This results in increased stopping power.

Agree


2. Larger diameter wheels, for a given rolling radius, reduces the vehicle's un-sprung weight which will
allow the tire to remain on the road, where it's suppose to be, improving safety and handling.


I don't see why it would necessarily have to be true that for a given
rolling radius, larger diameter wheels reduce the un-sprung weight.

The larger diameter wheel will have a considerably greater area of space between its' spokes than a smaller
diameter wheel. Therefore, as we all know, air weighs less than an equal volume of wheel or tire.

That is assuming spokes, and assuming the spokes are not larger Also
the larger the rim the more aluminum in the rim - and aluminum weighs
more than sidewalls and air.

For starters, there are all kinds of wheel styles and I would think
the weight will vary among them. Plus, I don't think Micky is talking
about a "given rolling radius", sounds like he just wants smaller wheels.
He wants smaller rims with the same radius if he wants a good ride. -
but you are right below - - -

We're never sure what Mickey is talking about.

3. Larger diameter wheels in conjunction with lower profile tires will improve handling as well.

Styling is nothing more than an offshoot of the above.

I'd say for many cars, probably most, styling, having the wheels look
cool, is more important to the customer than all the above. They
paint brake calipers for example, I don't suppose that has anything
to do with performance either.

Whatever.

In article ,
says...


3. Larger diameter wheels in conjunction with lower profile tires will improve handling as well.

Styling is nothing more than an offshoot of the above.

I'd say for many cars, probably most, styling, having the wheels look
cool, is more important to the customer than all the above. They
paint brake calipers for example, I don't suppose that has anything
to do with performance either.

Unless on some high performance car (and even then it is doubtful) just
about everything on a car is made for looks. The average car buyer does
not have any idea about the handling or other advantages of the tire
size.

On Mon, 8 May 2017 12:57:43 -0400, Ralph Mowery wrote:

In article ,
says...


3. Larger diameter wheels in conjunction with lower profile tires will improve handling as well.

Styling is nothing more than an offshoot of the above.

I'd say for many cars, probably most, styling, having the wheels look
cool, is more important to the customer than all the above. They
paint brake calipers for example, I don't suppose that has anything
to do with performance either.

Unless on some high performance car (and even then it is doubtful) just
about everything on a car is made for looks. The average car buyer does
not have any idea about the handling or other advantages of the tire
size.

Your statement may be true, but that doesn't change the fact that the trend to larger wheels and brakes was
born on the race track.

On Mon, 8 May 2017 09:19:30 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, May 8, 2017 at 12:05:35 PM UTC-4, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Mon, 8 May 2017 08:12:47 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Bigger wheel are as much for appearance as anything else. Remember when
they went to 14' for a while back in 1958? Made the car lower. The
larger diameter will give you more miles on he tires as it travels
further each revolution.

As for ride, most tires today have low aspect ratio. Good for cornering,
not so much for soft ride.

Not many convertibles to choose from thee days. Maybe they got better,
but I no longer drive Buicks after the last one fell apart. It was a
2001 LeSabre Limited loaded with espensive problems, as all my GM cars
had. I buy quality cars by Hyundia now including a Korea made Genesis.
Love driving it.

There are several reasons for larger diameter wheels, none of which is styling.

1. Larger diameter wheels allow larger diameter brake rotors that will result in a greater mechanical
advantage. This results in increased stopping power.

Agree


2. Larger diameter wheels, for a given rolling radius, reduces the vehicle's un-sprung weight which will
allow the tire to remain on the road, where it's suppose to be, improving safety and handling.


I don't see why it would necessarily have to be true that for a given
rolling radius, larger diameter wheels reduce the un-sprung weight.
For starters, there are all kinds of wheel styles and I would think
the weight will vary among them. Plus, I don't think Micky is talking
about a "given rolling radius", sounds like he just wants smaller wheels.

I want a comfortable ride, and don't care about impressing chicks at
the beach or maneuvering through hazards at high speeds.

I din't comment on it in my own reply, but I don't know what a "given
rolling radius" is. I know given, rolling, and radius, but put them
together and I don't know.

3. Larger diameter wheels in conjunction with lower profile tires will improve handling as well.

Styling is nothing more than an offshoot of the above.

I'd say for many cars, probably most, styling, having the wheels look
cool, is more important to the customer than all the above. They

I think so too. That and the length of the hair of the girl sitting
on the hood.

paint brake calipers for example, I don't suppose that has anything
to do with performance either.

If they paint them the right color, they stop better so they can drive
faster.

On 05/08/2017 01:24 PM, Micky wrote:
I din't comment on it in my own reply, but I don't know what a "given
rolling radius" is. I know given, rolling, and radius, but put them
together and I don't know.

Put a chalk mark on the tire's sidewall the lowest point, continuing the
mark down on the pavement. Drive forward until the chalk mark is at the
lowest point and again mark the pavement. Measure the distance between
the two marks on the pavement and do the math. Voila, the rolling radius.

trader_4
Mon, 08
May 2017 16:19:30 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

I'd say for many cars, probably most, styling, having the wheels
look cool, is more important to the customer than all the above.
They paint brake calipers for example, I don't suppose that has
anything to do with performance either.

That depends on the paint being used. Some paints have additional heat
dissipation properties which can extend the life of the caliper, rotor,
and brake pads. As, over heated pads aren't providing much if any
stopping ability; and depending on the amount of excessive heat and
resulting damage, they may not provide much or any stopping ability
when they cool down to normal temps, either. Just ask a trucker who's
ever had the misfortune of heating his brakes up too much.

I suspect you know very little about race cars of various kinds based
on what you've written...I'm no pro racer myself, but, I do have a
track truck, and know professionals who are. It's not all about looks
for them. as Gordon pointed out, previously.


--
I would like to apologize for not having offended you yet.
Please be patient. I will get to you shortly.

On Monday, May 8, 2017 at 8:47:09 PM UTC-4, Diesel wrote:
trader_4
Mon, 08
May 2017 16:19:30 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

I'd say for many cars, probably most, styling, having the wheels
look cool, is more important to the customer than all the above.
They paint brake calipers for example, I don't suppose that has
anything to do with performance either.

That depends on the paint being used. Some paints have additional heat
dissipation properties which can extend the life of the caliper, rotor,
and brake pads.

When you have a credible study that backs that up, let us know.
Until then, I'm betting that any difference in radiated heat because
of paint color are inconsequential.



As, over heated pads aren't providing much if any
stopping ability; and depending on the amount of excessive heat and
resulting damage, they may not provide much or any stopping ability
when they cool down to normal temps, either. Just ask a trucker who's
ever had the misfortune of heating his brakes up too much.


Which, until proven otherwise, has virtually nothing to do with the
color.


I suspect you know very little about race cars of various kinds based
on what you've written...I'm no pro racer myself,

I see, but sure, go ahead and start another attack with your typical
disparaging opening remarks. When you have a study that shows what
you claim, let us know.



but, I do have a
track truck, and know professionals who are. It's not all about looks
for them. as Gordon pointed out, previously.


Funny, I thought we were talking about Micky's car, not a race car,
driven at extremes. But go ahead, show us a study of race cars and
the effect of brake component color being significant and we'll all
look at it.

On Mon, 08 May 2017 11:05:17 -0500, Gordon Shumway
wrote:

On Mon, 8 May 2017 08:12:47 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Bigger wheel are as much for appearance as anything else. Remember when
they went to 14' for a while back in 1958? Made the car lower. The
larger diameter will give you more miles on he tires as it travels
further each revolution.

As for ride, most tires today have low aspect ratio. Good for cornering,
not so much for soft ride.

Not many convertibles to choose from thee days. Maybe they got better,
but I no longer drive Buicks after the last one fell apart. It was a
2001 LeSabre Limited loaded with espensive problems, as all my GM cars
had. I buy quality cars by Hyundia now including a Korea made Genesis.
Love driving it.

There are several reasons for larger diameter wheels, none of which is styling.

1. Larger diameter wheels allow larger diameter brake rotors that will result in a greater mechanical
advantage. This results in increased stopping power.

How much braking does the average driver require at legal road speeds?

2. Larger diameter wheels, for a given rolling radius, reduces the vehicle's un-sprung weight which will
allow the tire to remain on the road, where it's suppose to be, improving safety and handling.

That depends how heavy the rim design is. A lot of the big rim low
profile tire combinations are every bit as heavy as a lot of smaller
rim taller tire combinations for the same rolling diameter.

3. Larger diameter wheels in conjunction with lower profile tires will improve handling as well.

Styling is nothing more than an offshoot of the above.

Not in most cases. In most cases the big wheels are just more "bling"

On Mon, 08 May 2017 13:17:47 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 08 May 2017 11:05:17 -0500, Gordon Shumway
wrote:

On Mon, 8 May 2017 08:12:47 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Bigger wheel are as much for appearance as anything else. Remember when
they went to 14' for a while back in 1958? Made the car lower. The
larger diameter will give you more miles on he tires as it travels
further each revolution.

As for ride, most tires today have low aspect ratio. Good for cornering,
not so much for soft ride.

Not many convertibles to choose from thee days. Maybe they got better,
but I no longer drive Buicks after the last one fell apart. It was a
2001 LeSabre Limited loaded with espensive problems, as all my GM cars
had. I buy quality cars by Hyundia now including a Korea made Genesis.
Love driving it.

There are several reasons for larger diameter wheels, none of which is styling.

1. Larger diameter wheels allow larger diameter brake rotors that will result in a greater mechanical
advantage. This results in increased stopping power.

How much braking does the average driver require at legal road speeds?

That depends. Imagine you are traveling at 60 mph and you suddenly see an obstacle 150 feet in front of you.
Your reaction time decreases that distance to 125 feet and your car takes 130 feet to stop... do you really
need greater stopping power?

2. Larger diameter wheels, for a given rolling radius, reduces the vehicle's un-sprung weight which will
allow the tire to remain on the road, where it's suppose to be, improving safety and handling.

That depends how heavy the rim design is. A lot of the big rim low
profile tire combinations are every bit as heavy as a lot of smaller
rim taller tire combinations for the same rolling diameter.

True. Styling has no weight requirements.

3. Larger diameter wheels in conjunction with lower profile tires will improve handling as well.

Styling is nothing more than an offshoot of the above.

Not in most cases. In most cases the big wheels are just more "bling"

Again, whatever.

On Mon, 08 May 2017 12:44:38 -0500, Gordon Shumway
wrote:

On Mon, 08 May 2017 13:17:47 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 08 May 2017 11:05:17 -0500, Gordon Shumway
wrote:

On Mon, 8 May 2017 08:12:47 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Bigger wheel are as much for appearance as anything else. Remember when
they went to 14' for a while back in 1958? Made the car lower. The
larger diameter will give you more miles on he tires as it travels
further each revolution.

As for ride, most tires today have low aspect ratio. Good for cornering,
not so much for soft ride.

Not many convertibles to choose from thee days. Maybe they got better,
but I no longer drive Buicks after the last one fell apart. It was a
2001 LeSabre Limited loaded with espensive problems, as all my GM cars
had. I buy quality cars by Hyundia now including a Korea made Genesis.
Love driving it.

There are several reasons for larger diameter wheels, none of which is styling.

1. Larger diameter wheels allow larger diameter brake rotors that will result in a greater mechanical
advantage. This results in increased stopping power.

How much braking does the average driver require at legal road speeds?

That depends. Imagine you are traveling at 60 mph and you suddenly see an obstacle 150 feet in front of you.
Your reaction time decreases that distance to 125 feet and your car takes 130 feet to stop... do you really
need greater stopping power?
Only need more braking power if the tires can hold it - otherwise the
ABS just shuts them down anyway.

That said, I DID put bigger brakes on my Ranger - it really needed
them BECAUSE I put on bigger wheels. So which came first - the chicken
or the egg?? With the little 14 inch wheels and tires the 10.25 nch
rotors were plenty adequate. With the big boots on the 16 inch rims,
the extra leverage made the 10.25s imadequate, and the 11s made a big
difference. Same pads and calipers, just applying the braking farther
from the axle.

2. Larger diameter wheels, for a given rolling radius, reduces the vehicle's un-sprung weight which will
allow the tire to remain on the road, where it's suppose to be, improving safety and handling.

That depends how heavy the rim design is. A lot of the big rim low
profile tire combinations are every bit as heavy as a lot of smaller
rim taller tire combinations for the same rolling diameter.

True. Styling has no weight requirements.

3. Larger diameter wheels in conjunction with lower profile tires will improve handling as well.

Styling is nothing more than an offshoot of the above.

Not in most cases. In most cases the big wheels are just more "bling"

Again, whatever.

On Monday, May 8, 2017 at 1:45:24 PM UTC-4, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Mon, 08 May 2017 13:17:47 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 08 May 2017 11:05:17 -0500, Gordon Shumway
wrote:

On Mon, 8 May 2017 08:12:47 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Bigger wheel are as much for appearance as anything else. Remember when
they went to 14' for a while back in 1958? Made the car lower. The
larger diameter will give you more miles on he tires as it travels
further each revolution.

As for ride, most tires today have low aspect ratio. Good for cornering,
not so much for soft ride.

Not many convertibles to choose from thee days. Maybe they got better,
but I no longer drive Buicks after the last one fell apart. It was a
2001 LeSabre Limited loaded with espensive problems, as all my GM cars
had. I buy quality cars by Hyundia now including a Korea made Genesis.
Love driving it.

There are several reasons for larger diameter wheels, none of which is styling.

1. Larger diameter wheels allow larger diameter brake rotors that will result in a greater mechanical
advantage. This results in increased stopping power.

How much braking does the average driver require at legal road speeds?

That depends. Imagine you are traveling at 60 mph and you suddenly see an obstacle 150 feet in front of you.
Your reaction time decreases that distance to 125 feet and your car takes 130 feet to stop... do you really
need greater stopping power?


Imagine that your tires don't have infinite adhesion to the pavement
and that any braking system can lock up the brakes. In other words,
it's a lot more complicated than you assume.

On 05/08/2017 11:17 AM, wrote:
How much braking does the average driver require at legal road speeds?

If you're driving at 80 mph, the legal speed on the interstate in this
state, how far away can Bambi be when you do 80 to 0 if you don't want
to scrape the hood?

Of course, 20" rims may or may not decrease the stopping distance.

On Mon, 08 May 2017 11:05:17 -0500, Gordon Shumway
wrote:

On Mon, 8 May 2017 08:12:47 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Bigger wheel are as much for appearance as anything else. Remember when
they went to 14' for a while back in 1958? Made the car lower. The
larger diameter will give you more miles on he tires as it travels
further each revolution.

As for ride, most tires today have low aspect ratio. Good for cornering,
not so much for soft ride.

Not many convertibles to choose from thee days. Maybe they got better,
but I no longer drive Buicks after the last one fell apart. It was a
2001 LeSabre Limited loaded with espensive problems, as all my GM cars
had. I buy quality cars by Hyundia now including a Korea made Genesis.
Love driving it.

There are several reasons for larger diameter wheels, none of which is styling.

1. Larger diameter wheels allow larger diameter brake rotors that will result in a greater mechanical
advantage. This results in increased stopping power.

2. Larger diameter wheels, for a given rolling radius, reduces the vehicle's un-sprung weight which will
allow the tire to remain on the road, where it's suppose to be, improving safety and handling.

I understand the first one, but why does it reduce the weight if the
wheels are bigger? Does the tire weigh more than the wheel at the 15
to 20" distance from the center?

In fact, when tires went from 14 to 15 to 16, I thought they just made
the sidewall shorter, but to get to 20, they can't take 4 more inches
off the side wall, so the whole radius must be bigger, and does't that
increase the unsprung weight?

3. Larger diameter wheels in conjunction with lower profile tires will improve handling as well.

Styling is nothing more than an offshoot of the above.

On Monday, May 8, 2017 at 3:20:35 PM UTC-4, Micky wrote:
On Mon, 08 May 2017 11:05:17 -0500, Gordon Shumway
wrote:

On Mon, 8 May 2017 08:12:47 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Bigger wheel are as much for appearance as anything else. Remember when
they went to 14' for a while back in 1958? Made the car lower. The
larger diameter will give you more miles on he tires as it travels
further each revolution.

As for ride, most tires today have low aspect ratio. Good for cornering,
not so much for soft ride.

Not many convertibles to choose from thee days. Maybe they got better,
but I no longer drive Buicks after the last one fell apart. It was a
2001 LeSabre Limited loaded with espensive problems, as all my GM cars
had. I buy quality cars by Hyundia now including a Korea made Genesis.
Love driving it.

There are several reasons for larger diameter wheels, none of which is styling.

1. Larger diameter wheels allow larger diameter brake rotors that will result in a greater mechanical
advantage. This results in increased stopping power.

2. Larger diameter wheels, for a given rolling radius, reduces the vehicle's un-sprung weight which will
allow the tire to remain on the road, where it's suppose to be, improving safety and handling.

I understand the first one, but why does it reduce the weight if the
wheels are bigger? Does the tire weigh more than the wheel at the 15
to 20" distance from the center?


It would seem to me that a 20" wheel is going to weigh more than an 18"
or 16" wheel of the same design. Gordon said something about there
being more air between the spokes, IDK, must be some new science thing.
Even if you factor in lower profile tires on the larger rims, I doubt
you get less overall weight for the larger rim and tire together.

On Mon, 8 May 2017 12:44:51 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, May 8, 2017 at 3:20:35 PM UTC-4, Micky wrote:
On Mon, 08 May 2017 11:05:17 -0500, Gordon Shumway
wrote:

On Mon, 8 May 2017 08:12:47 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Bigger wheel are as much for appearance as anything else. Remember when
they went to 14' for a while back in 1958? Made the car lower. The
larger diameter will give you more miles on he tires as it travels
further each revolution.

As for ride, most tires today have low aspect ratio. Good for cornering,
not so much for soft ride.

Not many convertibles to choose from thee days. Maybe they got better,
but I no longer drive Buicks after the last one fell apart. It was a
2001 LeSabre Limited loaded with espensive problems, as all my GM cars
had. I buy quality cars by Hyundia now including a Korea made Genesis.
Love driving it.

There are several reasons for larger diameter wheels, none of which is styling.

1. Larger diameter wheels allow larger diameter brake rotors that will result in a greater mechanical
advantage. This results in increased stopping power.

2. Larger diameter wheels, for a given rolling radius, reduces the vehicle's un-sprung weight which will
allow the tire to remain on the road, where it's suppose to be, improving safety and handling.

I understand the first one, but why does it reduce the weight if the
wheels are bigger? Does the tire weigh more than the wheel at the 15
to 20" distance from the center?


It would seem to me that a 20" wheel is going to weigh more than an 18"
or 16" wheel of the same design. Gordon said something about there
being more air between the spokes, IDK, must be some new science thing.
Even if you factor in lower profile tires on the larger rims, I doubt
you get less overall weight for the larger rim and tire together.

The Car and Driver Frank posted at the end of the thread starts off by
saying. in general, the bigger rims and tires weight more. "In
general, larger wheels are heavier, and additional weight hinders
performance. " The article is from 2010. Maybe that's why he didn't
test 20" rims.

On Mon, 08 May 2017 22:20:28 +0300, Micky wrote:

On Mon, 08 May 2017 11:05:17 -0500, Gordon Shumway
wrote:

On Mon, 8 May 2017 08:12:47 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Bigger wheel are as much for appearance as anything else. Remember when
they went to 14' for a while back in 1958? Made the car lower. The
larger diameter will give you more miles on he tires as it travels
further each revolution.

As for ride, most tires today have low aspect ratio. Good for cornering,
not so much for soft ride.

Not many convertibles to choose from thee days. Maybe they got better,
but I no longer drive Buicks after the last one fell apart. It was a
2001 LeSabre Limited loaded with espensive problems, as all my GM cars
had. I buy quality cars by Hyundia now including a Korea made Genesis.
Love driving it.

There are several reasons for larger diameter wheels, none of which is styling.

1. Larger diameter wheels allow larger diameter brake rotors that will result in a greater mechanical
advantage. This results in increased stopping power.

2. Larger diameter wheels, for a given rolling radius, reduces the vehicle's un-sprung weight which will
allow the tire to remain on the road, where it's suppose to be, improving safety and handling.

I understand the first one, but why does it reduce the weight if the
wheels are bigger? Does the tire weigh more than the wheel at the 15
to 20" distance from the center?

In fact, when tires went from 14 to 15 to 16, I thought they just made
the sidewall shorter, but to get to 20, they can't take 4 more inches
off the side wall, so the whole radius must be bigger, and does't that
increase the unsprung weight?


GENERALLY speaking, the bigger the rim the more it weighs. Same with
the tire. The sidewalls are the lightest part of the tire.
3. Larger diameter wheels in conjunction with lower profile tires will improve handling as well.

Styling is nothing more than an offshoot of the above.

On 05/08/2017 10:05 AM, Gordon Shumway wrote:
2. Larger diameter wheels, for a given rolling radius, reduces the vehicle's un-sprung weight which will
allow the tire to remain on the road, where it's suppose to be, improving safety and handling.

It *may* decrease the unsprung weight. Some of the 20" wheels marketed
for the bling factor may be heavier than a smaller wheel/tire
combination with the same rolling diameter.

On 05/08/2017 7:12 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
....

Bigger wheel are as much for appearance as anything else. Remember when
they went to 14' for a while back in 1958? Made the car lower. The
larger diameter will give you more miles on he tires as it travels
further each revolution.
....

The reversion to larger diameter wheels most recently is primarily owing
to the EPA-mandated fleet mileage rules--lower rpm.

Early vintage autos followed the precedent of the carriage at the
time--wheels were big on them so the trend followed albeit 23-26" or so
was probably about the middle range. The 30" Model-T clincher tires
were on 23" rims; the dimensions were the tire OD, not the rim. Roughly
mid-20s was the advent of pneumatic tire similar to what we now know;
rims went to 20-21" with wide profile and they could be run at 35 psi or
so whereas the clincher tire needed about 65 psi to keep it mounted.
Needless to say that didn't lead to a cushiony ride.

In 30s, 'til after WWII pretty similar range altho 19-20 probably about
most common. By 1950, 15" was pretty-much de facto standard, the 14" on
some the lighter/smaller (for what was "small" back then, anywya )
was prevalent by mid-50s; the '55 Ford had in HS was 14", the folks'
Chrysler New Yorker was 15. That pretty-much remained the way it was
until the tiny car phase hit and there were things running around with
as small as 12 and 13"...

Then the mileage standards hit and the trend has been reverse direction
since...

--

On Monday, May 8, 2017 at 12:15:52 PM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 05/08/2017 7:12 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
...

Bigger wheel are as much for appearance as anything else. Remember when
they went to 14' for a while back in 1958? Made the car lower. The
larger diameter will give you more miles on he tires as it travels
further each revolution.
...

The reversion to larger diameter wheels most recently is primarily owing
to the EPA-mandated fleet mileage rules--lower rpm.

Seems to me the choice of gear ratio in the tranny would give you whatever
final ratio you want with any size wheel.

On Mon, 8 May 2017 09:38:50 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote:

On Monday, May 8, 2017 at 12:15:52 PM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 05/08/2017 7:12 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
...

Bigger wheel are as much for appearance as anything else. Remember when
they went to 14' for a while back in 1958? Made the car lower. The
larger diameter will give you more miles on he tires as it travels
further each revolution.
...

The reversion to larger diameter wheels most recently is primarily owing
to the EPA-mandated fleet mileage rules--lower rpm.

Seems to me the choice of gear ratio in the tranny would give you whatever
final ratio you want with any size wheel.

Agreed. Wheel diameter had nothing to do with the tree-hugger CAFE requirements.

On Mon, 08 May 2017 11:15:47 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 05/08/2017 7:12 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
...

Bigger wheel are as much for appearance as anything else. Remember when
they went to 14' for a while back in 1958? Made the car lower. The
larger diameter will give you more miles on he tires as it travels
further each revolution.
...

The reversion to larger diameter wheels most recently is primarily owing
to the EPA-mandated fleet mileage rules--lower rpm.

Early vintage autos followed the precedent of the carriage at the
time--wheels were big on them so the trend followed albeit 23-26" or so
was probably about the middle range. The 30" Model-T clincher tires
were on 23" rims; the dimensions were the tire OD, not the rim. Roughly
mid-20s was the advent of pneumatic tire similar to what we now know;
rims went to 20-21" with wide profile and they could be run at 35 psi or
so whereas the clincher tire needed about 65 psi to keep it mounted.
Needless to say that didn't lead to a cushiony ride.

In 30s, 'til after WWII pretty similar range altho 19-20 probably about
most common. By 1950, 15" was pretty-much de facto standard, the 14" on
some the lighter/smaller (for what was "small" back then, anywya )
was prevalent by mid-50s; the '55 Ford had in HS was 14", the folks'
Chrysler New Yorker was 15. That pretty-much remained the way it was
until the tiny car phase hit and there were things running around with
as small as 12 and 13"...


Even 10 inch on the Mini - and 8 on the King Midget.
Then the mileage standards hit and the trend has been reverse direction
since...
But thatb does not explain the insanely low profile tires. 80
profile 15 inch tires can ve taller than 50 profile 20s.

On Mon, 08 May 2017 11:15:47 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 05/08/2017 7:12 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
...

Bigger wheel are as much for appearance as anything else. Remember when
they went to 14' for a while back in 1958? Made the car lower. The
larger diameter will give you more miles on he tires as it travels
further each revolution.
...

The reversion to larger diameter wheels most recently is primarily owing
to the EPA-mandated fleet mileage rules--lower rpm.

Early vintage autos followed the precedent of the carriage at the
time--wheels were big on them so the trend followed albeit 23-26" or so
was probably about the middle range. The 30" Model-T clincher tires
were on 23" rims; the dimensions were the tire OD, not the rim. Roughly
mid-20s was the advent of pneumatic tire similar to what we now know;
rims went to 20-21" with wide profile and they could be run at 35 psi or
so whereas the clincher tire needed about 65 psi to keep it mounted.
Needless to say that didn't lead to a cushiony ride.

In 30s, 'til after WWII pretty similar range altho 19-20 probably about
most common. By 1950, 15" was pretty-much de facto standard, the 14" on
some the lighter/smaller (for what was "small" back then, anywya )
was prevalent by mid-50s; the '55 Ford had in HS was 14", the folks'
Chrysler New Yorker was 15. That pretty-much remained the way it was
until the tiny car phase hit and there were things running around with
as small as 12 and 13"...

All very interesting. Will take time to digest.

Then the mileage standards hit and the trend has been reverse direction
since...

This especially.

On Mon, 8 May 2017 08:12:47 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 5/8/2017 4:31 AM, Micky wrote:
A friend of mine is after me to buy a new car** and she found the
Buick Cascada. I've wanted a Buick for a long time, because I like GM
cars, but the Chevy I-forget-the-model-name was so cheap. Bucket
seats but not even a center console. And I've avoided Ford and
rice-burners. And the Cadillac seemed showy, so that left a
Buick. And the Skylark was beautful (And my Buick was okay too. I
forget its model name. Centurion?)

But the Cascada comes standard with 20" wheels, and they say that like
it's a good thing. Well if you're in the Gran Prix races, I'm sure
it's a good thing, but I like a comfortable ride. They don't even
mention smaller optional wheels (although I'm sure I could get them if
I pay someone to go to the Chevy dealer and get them there.

(It also has "sport-tuned suspension" I don't want that either, but I
suspect it's not like a violin that you can retune to something else.

It also comes with a black top, no other choice given. Don't these
designers ever drive the cars they design? It's like the charge-card
email notifications all over again. (I had two convertibles with
black tops. When the second one needed a new top, I changed to green,
to match the turquoise car, which was imo primarily green, and it was
much better. Since then I've had tan, a rather light version of tan.)

I suppose if I order the card before it's built, I can get a tan top,
and they probably "won't charge me much extra", but any negotiation on
the price will be over.

I've never bought a new car, but the idea was to get what I wanted,
not what I don't want. For $35,000 dollars, which I gather is not
much these days, but they don't offer to let me spend more and get
what I want.



Bigger wheel are as much for appearance as anything else. Remember when
they went to 14' for a while back in 1958? Made the car lower. The
larger diameter will give you more miles on he tires as it travels
further each revolution.

As for ride, most tires today have low aspect ratio. Good for cornering,
not so much for soft ride.

Not many convertibles to choose from thee days. Maybe they got better,
but I no longer drive Buicks after the last one fell apart. It was a
2001 LeSabre Limited loaded with espensive problems, as all my GM cars
had. I buy quality cars by Hyundia now including a Korea made Genesis.
Love driving it.
My 16 inch tires on my Pickup are bigger 'round than most 20 inch car
tires. Those low profile tires ride lake crap - and are much more
expensive - not to mention they only come in "performance" tires that
don't stand up worth crap.

On Mon, 08 May 2017 13:12:50 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 8 May 2017 08:12:47 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 5/8/2017 4:31 AM, Micky wrote:
A friend of mine is after me to buy a new car** and she found the
Buick Cascada. I've wanted a Buick for a long time, because I like GM
cars, but the Chevy I-forget-the-model-name was so cheap. Bucket
seats but not even a center console. And I've avoided Ford and
rice-burners. And the Cadillac seemed showy, so that left a
Buick. And the Skylark was beautful (And my Buick was okay too. I
forget its model name. Centurion?)

But the Cascada comes standard with 20" wheels, and they say that like
it's a good thing. Well if you're in the Gran Prix races, I'm sure
it's a good thing, but I like a comfortable ride. They don't even
mention smaller optional wheels (although I'm sure I could get them if
I pay someone to go to the Chevy dealer and get them there.

(It also has "sport-tuned suspension" I don't want that either, but I
suspect it's not like a violin that you can retune to something else.

It also comes with a black top, no other choice given. Don't these
designers ever drive the cars they design? It's like the charge-card
email notifications all over again. (I had two convertibles with
black tops. When the second one needed a new top, I changed to green,
to match the turquoise car, which was imo primarily green, and it was
much better. Since then I've had tan, a rather light version of tan.)

I suppose if I order the card before it's built, I can get a tan top,
and they probably "won't charge me much extra", but any negotiation on
the price will be over.

Looked at Ford Mustangs since I first posted, and they too, the new
ones, only come with a black top. If I want tan, I'm sure what
they'll want to do is take it to a shop in Baltimore and have him
replace it, but I can't help thinking that the factory would have done
a better job with the original top than he's likely to do with the
replacement.

I've never bought a new car, but the idea was to get what I wanted,
not what I don't want. For $35,000 dollars, which I gather is not
much these days, but they don't offer to let me spend more and get
what I want.



Bigger wheel are as much for appearance as anything else. Remember when
they went to 14' for a while back in 1958? Made the car lower. The
larger diameter will give you more miles on he tires as it travels
further each revolution.

As for ride, most tires today have low aspect ratio. Good for cornering,
not so much for soft ride.

Not many convertibles to choose from thee days. Maybe they got better,
but I no longer drive Buicks after the last one fell apart. It was a
2001 LeSabre Limited loaded with espensive problems, as all my GM cars
had. I buy quality cars by Hyundia now including a Korea made Genesis.
Love driving it.
My 16 inch tires on my Pickup are bigger 'round than most 20 inch car
tires. Those low profile tires ride lake crap - and are much more

By low-profile, you mean the 20 inch tires, right? I don't want to
get this wrong.

If so, that was my point, that the ride is hard. A long time ago
when most people, especially single girls,. had small cars, and I stil
had a 73 Buick Centurion, after riding with me for a while, she said,
This car is really comfortable. She meant it too, she wasn't
buttering me up or anything.

OTOH, I'm driving a tiny Kia Picanto with a 5-speed automatic** on my
vacation, and it's quiet, has lots of pickup (especially if you do the
downshifting yourself), does fine on gravel roads and climbing hills
on gravel roads, but -- I'll check again tomorrow -- it doesn't have
that comfort feeling that I like.

**Only about 20 dollars more per month than the manual, iirc. I know
it wasn't much.


expensive - not to mention they only come in "performance" tires that
don't stand up worth crap.