On Mon, 10 May 2004 17:25:31 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"Ignoramus15189" wrote in message
...
In article , Doug Kanter wrote:
"Ignoramus15189" wrote in message
...
forgot to say, trapping and releasing raccoons would be educational
for my 3 year old son.

Is it an ego thing, or is there some other reason you don't want to
enlist
your local animal control people?

I hate spending money on various contractors. Hiring contractors is an
unbelievable waste of time and money.

Are we on the same planet? I'm referring to your TOWN'S animal control
department. I've never heard of those people charging a citizen for removing
an animal.

Where I live (a little north of Seattle, Washington) you have to pay for this
service unless you can show they are injured or diseased. I had a family of 4
destroying my ponds last year and was told to either live with it or pay the
cities subcontractor $300 to remove them. And keep paying about $75 per animal
after that as new ones arrived to fill the created void.

Tony

In article ,
says...

"bill" wrote in message
news:MPG.1b09865a96075c6c98970b@localhost...
In article ,
says...


snip
I'm pretty sure it takes more than 9v to scare off a racoon. So how much
voltage would you use that would do the job but not hurt the child? I
know
you can die from as little as 50v. Even less if you got imaginative.




Voltage doen't kill you, current does. You get hit a lot of
voltage when zapped with static electricity, but very little
current.

Yes but they dont use static electricity in electric fences, do they?




Electricity is electricity. Lightning is static electricty, but I
wouldn't want to get hit with it.

Bill

(Charles H. Buchholtz) wrote in message ...
Ignoramus15189 ) wrote:
: I have a fenced backyard where I have a vegetable garden that is
: somewhat ransacked by raccoons. (or some other animals).

Here's the advice I hear frequently on "You Bet Your Garden" with Mike
McGrath:

Dig a trench two feet deep around your garden, and put 6 foot tall
wire fence into it. No burrowing animal burrows deeper than two feet.
Use stakes to support the fence, and fill in the trench. You now have
four feet of fence above ground and two feet of fence below.

Don't secure the top foot of the fence to the stakes. Instead, bend
it outwards at least 45 degrees.

Now you have a fence that burrowing creatures can't burrow under, and
climbing creatures can't climb over. When they try to climb, they
have to hang upside down from the unsecured part of the fence, which
bends under their weight and drops them on t
he ground.

The only way a critter can get through such a fence is by jumping over
it, knocking it down, or going through it.

I've never tried this myself, but it sounds reasonable.

--- Chip


------
In the ancient days they used a mote.


You had one around your castle... with a drawbridge.


Zebrin

I have no love for raccoons. They have killed too many of my pet ducks.
They kill just for the fun of killing as they do not eat the meat. Dogs
are fairly effective at chasing them but you want to make sure your dog
is big enough that it will be the winner if it actually catches the
raccoon. The Have-a-heart trap is good. However my idea is to submerge
the trap in the swimming pool if you actually catch a raccoon.

Dick

"Sunflower" wrote in message ...
"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"Ignoramus15189" wrote in message
...
forgot to say, trapping and releasing raccoons would be educational
for my 3 year old son.

Is it an ego thing, or is there some other reason you don't want to enlist
your local animal control people? The process you're describing might be
more educational than you think, but not for the right reasons. Your son
might learn how boring it is to sit around holding your dick in an
emergency
room for 3 hours while they take care of victims of car crashes &
gunshots.

You didn't say how large your garden is, but if the 'coons are attacking
just a few things, you could try sprinkling cayenne powder on the leaves
and
the soil around those plants. Works great for keeping cats out of the
garden, or from scratching furniture.



Animal Control here WILL NOT deal with anything but dogs and cats and the
occasional potbelly pig. Raccoons are *wildlife* and therefore non-domestic
and not their problem. If you have an injured one, the state wildlife guys
will direct you to a vet and foster parent, but they don't deal with them
either unless they're possibly rabid, and since that's not happened since
sometime in the 70's, you just get told to call a pest control firm who'll
charge you big bucks and still not solve your problem.

If the original poster and his child are too stupid to install an electric
wire like was recommended, then let him deal with no fish in the fish ponds
and no veggies in the garden and several ER bites from trying to trap them.
Evolution in action. He'll either learn what futility is, or he'll actually
educate himself on electric fences and not subscribe to ignorant hysteria.
I'll bet he's even touched his tongue to a battery as a child, but somehow
he thinks that should have electrocuted him.
***
Next time your aldermen or county council meets for budget
deliberations, show up. When the animal control people put in for
their appropriation, point out their dereliction of duty. Pack the
gallery with your supporters if you can, with the press if they will
send a reporter. Democracy in action.-Jitney

"bill" wrote in message
news:MPG.1b09eda2ef2138ea98970e@localhost...
In article ,
says...

"bill" wrote in message
news:MPG.1b09865a96075c6c98970b@localhost...
In article ,
says...


snip
I'm pretty sure it takes more than 9v to scare off a racoon. So how
much
voltage would you use that would do the job but not hurt the child? I
know
you can die from as little as 50v. Even less if you got imaginative.




Voltage doen't kill you, current does. You get hit a lot of
voltage when zapped with static electricity, but very little
current.

Yes but they dont use static electricity in electric fences, do they?




Electricity is electricity. Lightning is static electricty, but I
wouldn't want to get hit with it.

No, there's a difference. A static charge of 1000v will (in most cases)
dissipate so quick you barely hear the snap, where 1000v ac or dc will kill
you more than likely. Now that I think of it some, it may be that they *do*
use static electricity for fences. Looked up electric fence on the
internet. What I read doesnt explicitely say static charge, but they are
talking about powering it with a low voltage battery so that does kind of
imply a short lived charge.

In article ,
says...

"bill" wrote in message
news:MPG.1b09eda2ef2138ea98970e@localhost...
snip
Voltage doen't kill you, current does. You get hit a lot of
voltage when zapped with static electricity, but very little
current.

Yes but they dont use static electricity in electric fences, do they?




Electricity is electricity. Lightning is static electricty, but I
wouldn't want to get hit with it.

No, there's a difference. A static charge of 1000v will (in most cases)
dissipate so quick you barely hear the snap, where 1000v ac or dc will kill
you more than likely. Now that I think of it some, it may be that they *do*
use static electricity for fences. Looked up electric fence on the
internet. What I read doesnt explicitely say static charge, but they are
talking about powering it with a low voltage battery so that does kind of
imply a short lived charge.




Your static charge is DC. It's the same as the charge stored in a
capacitor. It just happens to be created by friction instead of a
battery or other mechanism. The zap you feel when you get charged
up shuffling across a carpet then touching a door knob is just the
electrons flowing from you to the door knob hence DC. It doesn't
kill you because there isn't a lot of current flow for a long
period of time.

"Ampere. The unit of electrical current. Also milliamp (one
thousandth of an amp) and microamp (one millionth of an amp). One
amp corresponds to the flow of about 6 x 1018 electrons per
second."

So 1000v that only produces current flow for a millisecond is
going to be felt, but that's about it because as soon as the
current starts flowing there's nothing to keep it flowing and the
voltage drops quickly. When you get hit with 1000v with a power
source behind it that can keep the current flowing with out the
voltage dropping your in deep doodoo.

For the sake of argument, lets say your body equals 100 ohms of
impedance: 1000v /100 ohms = 10 amps but since amps are a
function of current over time and current flowed only for 1
millisecond you have to divide 10 amps by 1000 and get 10 milliamp
equivalent. Enough to get your attention for sure. But rarely if
ever fatal.

See:
http://www.t2.unh.edu/spring99/pg4.html

for the effects of rising levels of current flow.

The fences probably use a capactive discharge circuit.


Bill

"jitney" wrote in message Next time your aldermen or county council
meets for budget
deliberations, show up. When the animal control people put in for
their appropriation, point out their dereliction of duty. Pack the
gallery with your supporters if you can, with the press if they will
send a reporter. Democracy in action.-Jitney

And you'll be laughed right out of the building. The AC people are hired.
They do what they're told to do, they pick up what they're allowed to pick
up. The aldermen are ELECTED. They are the ones who need to change the
policy if the AC don't pick up wildlilfe.
I used to be an animal control officer which usually means a glorified dog
catcher. I was paid to pick up stray PETS. Because I also was a wildlife
rehabilitator they said I could pick up wildlife but wouldn't get paid for
it. Only reason I could legally pick up wildlife is because of my rehab
license.
Sue
Northern Wisconsin

They do what they're told to do, they pick up what they're allowed to pick
up.

When I caught a possum in a county supplied trap, the animal control folks
said that they would come out and kill it and take the dead body. They
would not accept a trap with a live wild critter. (They supplied the traps
to capture CATS.)

So I told them to kill the animal. I was gone when they came but the
critter was gone and there was some sticky blood left on the trap.

"Ann" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 10 May 2004 16:56:07 +0000, Doug Kanter wrote:

"Ann" wrote in message
news
What about keeping a dog in the
fenced area at night?

No! Bad idea! The dog will dig in the garden or crap all over it. Bad,
bad, bad.

Not if the dog is trained. When I lived in the city, where most houses
had postage-stamp back yards, the majority had at least a couple tomato
plants AND a dog.

Grrrr.....dogs.....the only good thing about them is that most of them are
dumb enough to stand still while you tape a pistol target to their
midsections.
Sincerely,
Dog Curmudgeon

"rot13 (Kevin Miller)" wrote in message
...


I would not use an electric fence with a 3 year old kid in the house.

Given that the racoons are nocturnal you would only need to turn the
fence on at night when presumably your 3yr old would be inside.

You have just won a virtual cocktail for noticing something nobody else did.
Place glass in CD-ROM drawer and hit:
CTRL-M (for real beer - Molson)
CTRL-B (for water - i.e.: Budweiser)
CTRL-J (for Jack Daniels)

"Anthony Aversano" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 10 May 2004 17:25:31 GMT, "Doug Kanter"

wrote:

"Ignoramus15189" wrote in message
...
In article , Doug Kanter wrote:
"Ignoramus15189" wrote in
message
...
forgot to say, trapping and releasing raccoons would be educational
for my 3 year old son.

Is it an ego thing, or is there some other reason you don't want to
enlist
your local animal control people?

I hate spending money on various contractors. Hiring contractors is an
unbelievable waste of time and money.

Are we on the same planet? I'm referring to your TOWN'S animal control
department. I've never heard of those people charging a citizen for
removing
an animal.

Where I live (a little north of Seattle, Washington) you have to pay for
this
service unless you can show they are injured or diseased. I had a family
of 4
destroying my ponds last year and was told to either live with it or pay
the
cities subcontractor $300 to remove them. And keep paying about $75 per
animal
after that as new ones arrived to fill the created void.

Tony

Yikes. Things have gotten out of hand in the big cities.

"Nick Hull" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Doug Kanter" wrote:

A Havahart trap is a good idea, too, but you might want to have your
local
animal control people assist. Raccoons can get weird....

EZ way to get rid of the coon is to take it (in the trap!) to your local
coon dog hunter. It'll help train his dogs to coons.

I'm admittedly not fully awake yet, but I can't seen to find "coon dog
hunter" in the yellow pages. Maybe under hobbies.....no. Furs?

"rot13 (Kevin Miller)" wrote in message
...

Also be sure to carefully check your local hunting regulations. Many
places, including MA, have an "exemption" to the hunting season rules
that give property owners the right to destroy wildlife in the act of
causing damage or threatening personal safety.

That's interesting. Our town justice used to be my son's baseball coach, so
we had lots of time to shoot the breeze. Once, I was having serious problems
with a couple of dogs destroying vegetable plants (digging within the
garden). The judge told me that as long as I did not violate firearms laws,
it was legal to "reeducate" (i.e.: kill) such dogs. A couple of people who
are not in a position to know these things argued with me about this, and
asked me to confirm it. I was unable to find this in our town's statutes.
Perhaps it's a NY state statute. I believe what the judge told me, but
still....it's interesting to know where these things are written, for both
practical AND historical reasons.

"Ignoramus27199" wrote in message
...



I can second the recommendation for Premier. Their customer reps are
very helpful and knowledgable. I called when I was setting up fencing
for our goats planning on getting a fancy combination of electric twine,
HT wire, fiberglass line posts, metal corner t-posts and a solar-battery
energizer. After asking what I wanted the fencing for their rep
suggested electric netting, some plastic corner posts and an energizer
with 9v alkaline battery. Saved me a bunch of money and I've been very
happy with the system.
Kevin Miller
(rot13)
http://www.net1plus.com/users/miller9

You see, my spouse would never agree to it no matter what physics
based explanations I offer.

Although I know the electric fence would not be a problem, your wife's
opinion is understandable. The mother bear instinct is cool. I only wish
human mothers would behave like bear mothers right down to the gory details.
That would take care of SO many "people who should be eliminated", keeping
George Carlin's criteria in mind as I say that. Based on these criteria, I
can recall at least 3 idiots who would've had their faces & throats removed
by my wife, when she felt our son was endangered. Sigh....sadly, she's a
Unitarian. Too peaceful.

"Ignoramus27199" wrote in message
...
In article , Russell wrote:
Ignoramus15189 wrote:


Shooting them is not an option due to our city code.

Flippin' governments. Take the fun out of everything. ;-)

yep, I was thinking about setting up a sniper nest in my master
bedroom bathroom, but my hopes were dashed. I have a "security
light"that comes on when raccoons visit, so that shooting at them at
night would be quite easy. But, I do not want to have gun violations
on my record.

I know just one person who is so accurate with a slingshot that I wonder
sometimes if what I'm watching was digitally altered. Years of practice, I
guess.

www.slingshots.com

On Mon, 10 May 2004 23:20:45 -0700, Adam Russell wrote:

No, there's a difference. A static charge of 1000v will (in most cases)
dissipate so quick you barely hear the snap, where 1000v ac or dc will kill
you more than likely.

Static electricity _is_ DC. The power in lightning will be higher than
you get from rubbing your feet on the rug, because the current is higher,
but the voltage may very well be the same. It's all about joules (power over
time).

"Ignoramus27199" wrote in message
...
In article , Doug Kanter wrote:
"Ignoramus27199" wrote in message
...
In article , Russell wrote:
Ignoramus15189 wrote:


Shooting them is not an option due to our city code.

Flippin' governments. Take the fun out of everything. ;-)

yep, I was thinking about setting up a sniper nest in my master
bedroom bathroom, but my hopes were dashed. I have a "security
light"that comes on when raccoons visit, so that shooting at them at
night would be quite easy. But, I do not want to have gun violations
on my record.

I know just one person who is so accurate with a slingshot that I wonder
sometimes if what I'm watching was digitally altered. Years of practice,
I
guess.

www.slingshots.com



Hm, I would like to make my own slingshot. Where could Ibuy good
rubber for it?

Oh for cryin' out loud....the top of the line model at that web site is
thirty bucks and it has fiber optic sites. Live a little. Spend the money.
But, the site also sells just the rubber bands, if you insist on being a
shnorer.

"bill" wrote in message
news:MPG.1b0a4f6d199ad699989713@localhost...
In article ,
says...

"bill" wrote in message
news:MPG.1b09eda2ef2138ea98970e@localhost...
snip
Voltage doen't kill you, current does. You get hit a lot of
voltage when zapped with static electricity, but very little
current.

Yes but they dont use static electricity in electric fences, do they?




Electricity is electricity. Lightning is static electricty, but I
wouldn't want to get hit with it.

No, there's a difference. A static charge of 1000v will (in most cases)
dissipate so quick you barely hear the snap, where 1000v ac or dc will
kill
you more than likely. Now that I think of it some, it may be that they
*do*
use static electricity for fences. Looked up electric fence on the
internet. What I read doesnt explicitely say static charge, but they are
talking about powering it with a low voltage battery so that does kind of
imply a short lived charge.




Your static charge is DC.

Disagree. DC means unchanging voltage. Static charge changes as soon as it
is 'used'. Otherwise I agree with what you say.

The fences probably use a capactive discharge circuit.

This makes sense. Good jolt but relatively safe.

On Tue, 11 May 2004 08:33:47 -0700, Adam Russell wrote:

"bill" wrote in message
news:MPG.1b0a4f6d199ad699989713@localhost...

Your static charge is DC.

Disagree. DC means unchanging voltage. Static charge changes as soon as it
is 'used'. Otherwise I agree with what you say.

Disagree all you want, but he's right. It's a DC voltage that decreases
as it's discharged through a resistance (you), just like any other DC voltage.

The fences probably use a capactive discharge circuit.

This makes sense. Good jolt but relatively safe.

....which is also DC, just like a static charge or lightning, but
somewhat between the two.

"Adam Russell"
|
| Your static charge is DC.
|
| Disagree. DC means unchanging voltage. Static charge changes as soon as
it
| is 'used'. Otherwise I agree with what you say.
|
| The fences probably use a capactive discharge circuit.
|
| This makes sense. Good jolt but relatively safe.

As a retired EE : DC means only direct current (as compares to alternating
current) it does not mean unchanging. (an over simplified example: If you
car has a volt meter watch it when the motor is off and when the motor is
running.)

I grew up on a farm, and as kids we grabbed the fence tons of times when we
thought it was off. It hurt like hell, but it didn't kill us. Just sent us
crying to mom.

In fact, I can remember (vividly, no less) one dusk when we were playing tag
across the pasture, and I practically garrotted myself on a wire gate that I
thought was open. Caught the wire (between barbs, thankfully) right under
the chin, and both feet went out in front of me.. *wham* "I don't
want to play, anymore."

--Goedjn

you can die from as little as 50v. Even less if you got imaginative.
Voltage doen't kill you, current does. You get hit a lot of
voltage when zapped with static electricity, but very little
current.

Yes but they dont use static electricity in electric fences, do they?


The cattle fences that I grew up with sent very short pulses
about once a second, at several thousand volts, and some
really low amperage. And if you're getting zapped by
electricity, it's not static anymore...

On Tue, 11 May 2004 13:54:53 -0400, wrote:


I practically garrotted myself on a wire gate that I
thought was open. Caught the wire (between barbs, thankfully) right under
the chin, and both feet went out in front of me.. *wham* "I don't
want to play, anymore."

Heh. I did pretty much the same thing years ago when I was a brand-new,
shiny EMT. Responded to a car accident; the car had run off the road,
through a barbed wire fence, and overturned, scattering it's un-belted
occupants. Things were going really well in my getting to them, until
I encountered the part of the barbed wire fence which was still
intact. Nice scars, one on my upper arm, another on my chest. I didn't
mention it to anyone at the scene, or I would have got that year's award
at our annual party, for sure.

Fences, plus dark, plus more speed than visibility, are a bad combination.

Dave Hinz

In article ,
says...



Your static charge is DC.

Disagree. DC means unchanging voltage. Static charge changes as soon as it
is 'used'. Otherwise I agree with what you say.

The fences probably use a capactive discharge circuit.

This makes sense. Good jolt but relatively safe.




No, DC means Direct Current as in flowing only in one direction.
Under your definition, batteries aren't DC because eventually they
go dead.

Bill

"Adam Russell" wrote in message ...
"Snooze" wrote in message
. com...
Don't let your kids wear wool socks on a low humidity day...imagine what
would happen if they discovered they can shuffle around the house and zap
each other with a few thousand volts. A typical static electricity shock
is
about 2000 - 4000 volts.

Of course a amperage involved is so low, that aside from the surprise, no
damage is done. Ever taken a weak 9v battery and tapped it against your
tongue? A fresh battery hurts a little, but a weak one gives a little
tingling sensation.

A consumer grade electric fence is harmless, it will give a mild shock,
but
nothing dangerous. I couldn't find the specifications online, so
guestimating, if an electric fence transformer draws 120v A/C @ 1 amp, the
output would be 4000 v A/C at .03 amp.

That's just a mild shocker, pretty safe..if it was D/C on the otherhand is
a
different story.

You dont know much about electricity it appears. Static electricity is
completely different from transformer electricity. When you get a shock
from static electricity it is 2-4k for only an extreme fraction of a second.
I dont remember how short exactly (1ms comes to mind), but it is the brevity
that saves you. As it swiftly runs out of electrons the voltage falls to
zero.

Somehow I doubt it's the brevity that makes static electricity
harmless. I've played around with battery-powered circuits that work
by delivering pulses of electricity to the subject when the current
through a circuit containing an inductor is interrupted (for example,
the gag lighters that shock people work this way). Whatever current
is flowing through the inductor gets sent through the subject for a
short period of time. It's relatively safe because the peak amperage
is controlled. If you hook up a resistor in series with the subject,
the maximum current doesn't change, but the pulses get shorter. When
you do this, the pain falls off, but the response from your muscles
doesn't change as much. Eventually, especially if the contact area
between the electrodes and the skin is large, you can produce
involuntary muscle contractions with little or no pain.

Given that the heart is a muscle, I would think that a few seconds of
current would be better than a few milliseconds if the goal was to
produce pain without rendering any permanent harm. I could be wrong,
but if I had to guess, I'd say the reason static electricity isn't
harmful is because most of the voltage is across the air gap, not
across your body. Also, the charge is entirely on your skin, and most
is probably very close to the spot where you're about to touch
something, so practically no current is going through your heart.

Power out of your wall does not fall off. At all. That 120v will
deliver 1mA or 15A depending on the resistance of what you are powering and
only limited by your circuit breaker or fuse. If you were to put a penny in
the fusebox it could deliver 1000's of amps with no problem except that the
wires would get hot. So putting it through a transformer will not reduce
the amperage available to any safe amount. 4000v will kill you, and it
matters not whether it is DC or AC.

Surely it couldn't be very difficult to have a device of some sort in
the circuit to control the maximum current. At the very least,
couldn't he just put an appropriate fuse in the circuit, if there
wasn't one already?

Now as to the matter of electric fences, when I was a child my grandpa told
me to stay away from the electric fence surrounding the cow field. He said
it would kick me like a sledgehammer. He could have been pulling my leg,
but I imagine that anything meant to coerce a cow would hurt a human. OTOH,
a raccoon is not a cow. The question is open whether you could make a fence
with enough jolt to keep out racoons but not enough to hurt 3 year olds. I
personally doubt it.

There's almost one order of magnitude between the current needed to
cause pain and the current that's large enough to be dangerous. The
fact that the area of contact with the wire is small, and a three-year
old is larger than a racoon, ought to make the range of safety even
broader.

Jim Black wrote:


Somehow I doubt it's the brevity that makes static electricity
harmless.

Who said static electricity is harmless? Lightning is static
electricity, but I don't see many people standing outside in a thunderstorm.

But what do I tell customer service if the cocktail holder breaks!?!?


"Doug Kanter" pontificated wisely that:

"rot13 (Kevin Miller)" wrote in message
...


I would not use an electric fence with a 3 year old kid in the house.

Given that the racoons are nocturnal you would only need to turn the
fence on at night when presumably your 3yr old would be inside.

You have just won a virtual cocktail for noticing something nobody else did.
Place glass in CD-ROM drawer and hit:
CTRL-M (for real beer - Molson)
CTRL-B (for water - i.e.: Budweiser)
CTRL-J (for Jack Daniels)



Kevin Miller
(rot13)
http://www.net1plus.com/users/miller9

Ignoramus27199 pontificated wisely
that:

In article , rot13 wrote:

Given that the racoons are nocturnal you would only need to turn the
fence on at night when presumably your 3yr old would be inside.


I can second the recommendation for Premier. Their customer reps are
very helpful and knowledgable. I called when I was setting up fencing
for our goats planning on getting a fancy combination of electric twine,
HT wire, fiberglass line posts, metal corner t-posts and a solar-battery
energizer. After asking what I wanted the fencing for their rep
suggested electric netting, some plastic corner posts and an energizer
with 9v alkaline battery. Saved me a bunch of money and I've been very
happy with the system.

You see, my spouse would never agree to it no matter what physics
based explanations I offer.

I hear ya, but things do sometimes change. My wife would never agree to
any kind of gun around, until she chased a fox away from her hen house.
Then I discovered that our state laws were such that an air rifle was
the only practical solution.
Kevin Miller
(rot13)
http://www.net1plus.com/users/miller9

Advanced Priority wrote in message ...
Jim Black wrote:


Somehow I doubt it's the brevity that makes static electricity
harmless.

Who said static electricity is harmless? Lightning is static
electricity, but I don't see many people standing outside in a thunderstorm.

Oops ... but you know what I meant -- static electricity at around
2000 - 4000 volts, as was being discussed. Practically everything is
lethal if you get enough of it.

In article , Advanced Priority
wrote:

Jim Black wrote:


Somehow I doubt it's the brevity that makes static electricity
harmless.

Who said static electricity is harmless? Lightning is static
electricity, but I don't see many people standing outside in a thunderstorm.

How well I remember shuffling across the carpet & pointing my finger at my
sister's head, giggling until -- FLASH! -- both of us fell into fits of
tears. And that's why to this day I have but nine fingers & my sister went
blind & became bald for life.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com/

"Adam Russell" wrote in message
...
You dont know much about electricity it appears. Static electricity is
completely different from transformer electricity. When you get a shock
from static electricity it is 2-4k for only an extreme fraction of a
second.
I dont remember how short exactly (1ms comes to mind), but it is the
brevity
that saves you. As it swiftly runs out of electrons the voltage falls to
zero. Power out of your wall does not fall off. At all. That 120v will
deliver 1mA or 15A depending on the resistance of what you are powering
and
only limited by your circuit breaker or fuse. If you were to put a penny
in
the fusebox it could deliver 1000's of amps with no problem except that
the
wires would get hot. So putting it through a transformer will not reduce
the amperage available to any safe amount. 4000v will kill you, and it
matters not whether it is DC or AC.

Now as to the matter of electric fences, when I was a child my grandpa
told
me to stay away from the electric fence surrounding the cow field. He
said
it would kick me like a sledgehammer. He could have been pulling my leg,
but I imagine that anything meant to coerce a cow would hurt a human.
OTOH,
a raccoon is not a cow. The question is open whether you could make a
fence
with enough jolt to keep out racoons but not enough to hurt 3 year olds.
I
personally doubt it.

Most fence chargers work on pulses. You get zapped, but that's all it
is...a zap. You have plenty of time to let go before it sends another
pulse...and you tend to let go in a hurry.

A 3 year old would be fine with the fence...just like the cows...one zap and
they develop a healthy respect for it.

jena

"JMartin" wrote in message Most fence chargers work on pulses. You get
zapped, but that's all it
is...a zap. You have plenty of time to let go before it sends another
pulse...and you tend to let go in a hurry.


Very true unless you're like me. A number of years ago I kept a horse at a
neighboring property, the field surrounded by an electric fence about two
feet off the ground. In a small area with a lump in the ground, I would
step over the fence to take a shortcut to the barn. Once, in shorts my
inner thigh caught the fence. As I danced back and forth, getting each leg,
I finally jumped high enough to clear it. It hurt but more of a
slap/surprise kind of hurt. I must have looked so silly dancing over that
fence grin
Sue
Northern Wisconsin

paghat wrote:


How well I remember shuffling across the carpet & pointing my finger at my
sister's head, giggling until -- FLASH! -- both of us fell into fits of
tears. And that's why to this day I have but nine fingers & my sister went
blind & became bald for life.

-paghat the ratgirl

Did your sister become a lesbian, too?

"Adam Russell" wrote in
:


"Snooze" wrote in message
. com...

"Adam Russell" wrote in message
...
Evolution in action. He'll either learn what futility is, or
he'll actually educate himself on electric fences and not
subscribe to ignorant hysteria. I'll bet he's even touched his
tongue to a battery as a child, but somehow he thinks that should
have electrocuted him.

I'm pretty sure it takes more than 9v to scare off a racoon. So
how much voltage would you use that would do the job but not hurt
the child?
I know you can die from as little as 50v. Even less if you got
imaginative.



Don't let your kids wear wool socks on a low humidity day...imagine
what would happen if they discovered they can shuffle around the
house and zap each other with a few thousand volts. A typical static
electricity shock is about 2000 - 4000 volts.

Of course a amperage involved is so low, that aside from the
surprise, no damage is done. Ever taken a weak 9v battery and tapped
it against your tongue? A fresh battery hurts a little, but a weak
one gives a little tingling sensation.

A consumer grade electric fence is harmless, it will give a mild
shock, but nothing dangerous. I couldn't find the specifications
online, so guestimating, if an electric fence transformer draws 120v
A/C @ 1 amp, the output would be 4000 v A/C at .03 amp.

That's just a mild shocker, pretty safe..if it was D/C on the
otherhand is a different story.

You dont know much about electricity it appears. Static electricity
is completely different from transformer electricity. When you get a
shock from static electricity it is 2-4k for only an extreme fraction
of a second. I dont remember how short exactly (1ms comes to mind),
but it is the brevity that saves you. As it swiftly runs out of
electrons the voltage falls to zero. Power out of your wall does not
fall off. At all. That 120v will deliver 1mA or 15A depending on the
resistance of what you are powering and only limited by your circuit
breaker or fuse. If you were to put a penny in the fusebox it could
deliver 1000's of amps with no problem except that the wires would get
hot. So putting it through a transformer will not reduce the amperage
available to any safe amount. 4000v will kill you, and it matters
not whether it is DC or AC.

As others have said, voltage doesn't kill, current does. If you want
proof, go to a children's museum with a Van de Graf generator and observe
as kid after kid cheats death at the expense of hairstyling. The Van de
Graf Should be putting out least 10,000 V.

That said, it exceeding more likely for current to force a path through
your body as electric potential (voltage) increases. So for most intents
and purposes high voltage will kill you, but it also requires sustained
current running through your body, screwing with your normal electrical
functions and overheating your cells. (The current does not have to be
high at all.) Now don't go sticking your finger in a socket or
something, thinking you'll be able to let go after a short time, because
you won't.

If anything, DC is "safer" than AC, but I believe this involves
transmission losses that don't occur due the electric field generated by
the oscillating alternating current. But the tranmission losses should
be neglible at short distances and "safe" in this sense is not relevant.
(Does AC make it more diffult to remove your hand from an outlet? That
could be another reason, but I'm not too sure about it).

Static electricity is a capacitive discharge (as is lightning and battery
power). The only difference between that and electricity from an outlet
is that there is nothing resupplying the capacitor and so the duration is
short, depending on the size of the capacitor. (Just because you usually
get DC power from batteries and AC power from an outlet doesn't mean they
can't be the other way around. It wouldn't be efficient, but you could
do it).

Running electricity through a step-up transformer will step up the
voltage at the expense of (I'm not sure I remember this correctly, but
what else would it be?) current. (Inside a block transformer, you may
also have a rectifier that converts AC to DC). You will also have
current losses from the conversion and needless to say, just because you
are on a 15A line, it doesn't mean the device or transformer will draw
the full 15A. The input and output ratings should be printed on the
transformer block. All other things being equal, the calculation above
is still missing a sqrt(2) since the source is AC (in addition to
conversion losses which I am guess could be 30%.)

The term "transformer electricity" should probably be reserved for
Autobots and Decepticons.

[rec.gardens]

Did a quick search. Your town justice had it right. Here is the URL
for the applicable NY state reg, section 11-0523:
http://www.dec.state.ny.us/website/d...ife/damage.htm

"Doug Kanter" pontificated wisely that:

"rot13 (Kevin Miller)" wrote in message
...

Also be sure to carefully check your local hunting regulations. Many
places, including MA, have an "exemption" to the hunting season rules
that give property owners the right to destroy wildlife in the act of
causing damage or threatening personal safety.

That's interesting. Our town justice used to be my son's baseball coach, so
we had lots of time to shoot the breeze. Once, I was having serious problems
with a couple of dogs destroying vegetable plants (digging within the
garden). The judge told me that as long as I did not violate firearms laws,
it was legal to "reeducate" (i.e.: kill) such dogs. A couple of people who
are not in a position to know these things argued with me about this, and
asked me to confirm it. I was unable to find this in our town's statutes.
Perhaps it's a NY state statute. I believe what the judge told me, but
still....it's interesting to know where these things are written, for both
practical AND historical reasons.



Kevin Miller
(rot13)
http://www.net1plus.com/users/miller9

Salty Thumb wrote in message .. .
"Adam Russell" wrote in
:


"Snooze" wrote in message
. com...

"Adam Russell" wrote in message
...
Evolution in action. He'll either learn what futility is, or
he'll actually educate himself on electric fences and not
subscribe to ignorant hysteria. I'll bet he's even touched his
tongue to a battery as a child, but somehow he thinks that should
have electrocuted him.

I'm pretty sure it takes more than 9v to scare off a racoon. So
how much voltage would you use that would do the job but not hurt
the child?
I know you can die from as little as 50v. Even less if you got
imaginative.



Don't let your kids wear wool socks on a low humidity day...imagine
what would happen if they discovered they can shuffle around the
house and zap each other with a few thousand volts. A typical static
electricity shock is about 2000 - 4000 volts.

Of course a amperage involved is so low, that aside from the
surprise, no damage is done. Ever taken a weak 9v battery and tapped
it against your tongue? A fresh battery hurts a little, but a weak
one gives a little tingling sensation.

A consumer grade electric fence is harmless, it will give a mild
shock, but nothing dangerous. I couldn't find the specifications
online, so guestimating, if an electric fence transformer draws 120v
A/C @ 1 amp, the output would be 4000 v A/C at .03 amp.

That's just a mild shocker, pretty safe..if it was D/C on the
otherhand is a different story.

You dont know much about electricity it appears. Static electricity
is completely different from transformer electricity. When you get a
shock from static electricity it is 2-4k for only an extreme fraction
of a second. I dont remember how short exactly (1ms comes to mind),
but it is the brevity that saves you. As it swiftly runs out of
electrons the voltage falls to zero. Power out of your wall does not
fall off. At all. That 120v will deliver 1mA or 15A depending on the
resistance of what you are powering and only limited by your circuit
breaker or fuse. If you were to put a penny in the fusebox it could
deliver 1000's of amps with no problem except that the wires would get
hot. So putting it through a transformer will not reduce the amperage
available to any safe amount. 4000v will kill you, and it matters
not whether it is DC or AC.

As others have said, voltage doesn't kill, current does. If you want
proof, go to a children's museum with a Van de Graf generator and observe
as kid after kid cheats death at the expense of hairstyling. The Van de
Graf Should be putting out least 10,000 V.

That said, it exceeding more likely for current to force a path through
your body as electric potential (voltage) increases. So for most intents
and purposes high voltage will kill you, but it also requires sustained
current running through your body, screwing with your normal electrical
functions and overheating your cells. (The current does not have to be
high at all.) Now don't go sticking your finger in a socket or
something, thinking you'll be able to let go after a short time, because
you won't.

If anything, DC is "safer" than AC, but I believe this involves
transmission losses that don't occur due the electric field generated by
the oscillating alternating current. But the tranmission losses should
be neglible at short distances and "safe" in this sense is not relevant.
(Does AC make it more diffult to remove your hand from an outlet? That
could be another reason, but I'm not too sure about it).

Static electricity is a capacitive discharge (as is lightning and battery
power). The only difference between that and electricity from an outlet
is that there is nothing resupplying the capacitor and so the duration is
short, depending on the size of the capacitor. (Just because you usually
get DC power from batteries and AC power from an outlet doesn't mean they
can't be the other way around. It wouldn't be efficient, but you could
do it).

Running electricity through a step-up transformer will step up the
voltage at the expense of (I'm not sure I remember this correctly, but
what else would it be?) current. (Inside a block transformer, you may
also have a rectifier that converts AC to DC). You will also have
current losses from the conversion and needless to say, just because you
are on a 15A line, it doesn't mean the device or transformer will draw
the full 15A. The input and output ratings should be printed on the
transformer block. All other things being equal, the calculation above
is still missing a sqrt(2) since the source is AC (in addition to
conversion losses which I am guess could be 30%.)

The term "transformer electricity" should probably be reserved for
Autobots and Decepticons.

[rec.gardens]


GOTHE CHEAPY WAY

Go down to Walmart and buy yourself a few bucks worth of MOTH BALLS,
yes Moth Balls. and scatter them around and all your animals will stay
clear until they all evaporate in about a month then scatterer some
more. If you have youngsters they might think they are candy so take
that in mind.

Jack

In article ,
(rot13) wrote:

I am reminded of a neighbor of mine who found a couple large stray dogs
in his yard. He called animal control and asked them to come and pick
up the dogs. They told him that they were unable to come to his house.
He replied that that was no problem, he would simply shoot the dogs.
They told him that it was against the law. He explained that the stray
dogs were attacking his dog and he would shoot the strays as a means of
protecting his dog.

The animal control people arrived within ten minutes.

Dick



That's interesting. Our town justice used to be my son's baseball coach,
so
we had lots of time to shoot the breeze. Once, I was having serious
problems
with a couple of dogs destroying vegetable plants (digging within the
garden). The judge told me that as long as I did not violate firearms
laws,
it was legal to "reeducate" (i.e.: kill) such dogs. A couple of people
who
are not in a position to know these things argued with me about this,
and
asked me to confirm it. I was unable to find this in our town's
statutes.
Perhaps it's a NY state statute. I believe what the judge told me, but
still....it's interesting to know where these things are written, for
both
practical AND historical reasons.

Richard Cline wrote in
:

In article ,
(rot13) wrote:

I am reminded of a neighbor of mine who found a couple large stray
dogs in his yard. He called animal control and asked them to come and
pick up the dogs. They told him that they were unable to come to his
house. He replied that that was no problem, he would simply shoot the
dogs. They told him that it was against the law. He explained that
the stray dogs were attacking his dog and he would shoot the strays as
a means of protecting his dog.

The animal control people arrived within ten minutes.

Dick

This reminds me of a neighbor a few years ago when he saw two kids breaking
into his storage building. When he called the police he was told they
didn't have a car ton send right away, but would get there when they
cvould. He called them back in a couple of minutes and told them not to
hurry that he just shot the two intruders. They show up in about 3 minutes
and caught the two kids. The police ask why he lied about shooting the
kids. He said well I got lied to by you when you said you had no car to
send out.



That's interesting. Our town justice used to be my son's baseball
coach, so
we had lots of time to shoot the breeze. Once, I was having serious
problems
with a couple of dogs destroying vegetable plants (digging within
the garden). The judge told me that as long as I did not violate
firearms laws,
it was legal to "reeducate" (i.e.: kill) such dogs. A couple of
people who
are not in a position to know these things argued with me about
this, and
asked me to confirm it. I was unable to find this in our town's
statutes.
Perhaps it's a NY state statute. I believe what the judge told me,
but still....it's interesting to know where these things are
written, for both
practical AND historical reasons.

Salty Thumb wrote:
... As others have said, voltage doesn't kill, current does. If you want
proof, go to a children's museum with a Van de Graf generator and observe
as kid after kid cheats death at the expense of hairstyling. The Van de
Graf Should be putting out least 10,000 V...

probably much more. The breakdown field strength for air is about 25000
volts/inch. Look at the length of the sparks the Van de Graf generates.
Of course, the field strength from a sharp point (such as the end of a
strand of hair) drops off as r squared, so the local field could
generate a breakdown which could propagate.

As far as the current level goes, I have heard that it requires as
little as 0.01 amps to kill a person. This is a very small current, and
I suspect that it wouldn't kill an average person except in exceptional
circumstances. I know people who have experienced up to 0.05 amps (DC)
before reporting discomfort (they did survive to report no discomfort).

Small currents generally kill by inducing paralysis of various important
muscles, such as those responsible for breathing or blood circulation.

Large currents can kill by damaging muscles or nerves.


That said, it exceeding more likely for current to force a path through
your body as electric potential (voltage) increases. So for most intents
and purposes high voltage will kill you, but it also requires sustained
current running through your body, screwing with your normal electrical
functions and overheating your cells. (The current does not have to be
high at all.)...


The voltage isn't really important if you can get the current up. Normal
skin resistance requires a fairly high voltage to overcome, but if you
implant an electrode below the skin into a region where bodily
electrolytes can conduct the current, you can probably electrocute
someone with 40 volts (as long as the current is high enough).


If anything, DC is "safer" than AC, but I believe this involves
transmission losses that don't occur due the electric field generated by
the oscillating alternating current. But the tranmission losses should
be neglible at short distances and "safe" in this sense is not relevant...

As far as AC/DC is concerned, it really doesn't matter. For the relative
merits of AC and/or DC, refer to the discussions between Edison (DC
proponent) and Westinghouse (AC proponent). Westinghouse won, although
there were sections of New York City that were supplied with DC power up
until the late 20th century. The main reason that AC won out over DC was
that AC could be transmitted over large distances by raising the voltage
and lowering the current. The resistance of the wires is what causes the
transmission losses and lowering the current reduces the voltage drop.
Since the voltage is high, the voltage drop is less important, being a
smaller fraction of the total. Both of these reasons make AC power
transmission more efficient.



Static electricity is a capacitive discharge (as is lightning and battery
power). The only difference between that and electricity from an outlet
is that there is nothing resupplying the capacitor and so the duration is
short, depending on the size of the capacitor...


Static electricity, although of short duration, is sufficient to fry
electronic chips, since the current is concentrated into a small area on
the chip. In that case, the relevant parameter is amperes per square cm.



...Running electricity through a step-up transformer will step up the
voltage at the expense of (I'm not sure I remember this correctly, but
what else would it be?) current...

Correct. The power (product of current and voltage) remains the same
(neglecting transformer heating).




I have not been following this thread, but suppose it to have been
started by someone recommending an electric fence transformer for
raccoon prevention. The electric fence transformer I used to have was
rated 0.01 amperes output. I measured the voltage at 1500 volts. The AC
voltage was continuously supplied as long as it was plugged in. Being
normally forgetful, I neglected to unplug the system several times and
did a little garden sparking. It was unpleasant, and not something I'd
like to do frequently, but I believe it was just enough to discourage
repetitions (and improve memory). Other electric fence systems are
pulsed, so that a single spike of high voltage is presented every second
or two. The time interval between pulses is quite enough to withdraw
one's hand or other portion of the anatomy that came in contact with the
wire.