I have an old home that has mostly the 2-prong outlets (without the
ground). There are 3-prong outlets in the new add-on and converted
garage, but that's beside the point.

One of the 2-prong outlets is broken and needs to be replaced, but all
I can find *locally* (it's a small town) are 3-prong outlets. My only
question is, does anyone even make the 2-prong outlets anymore?
(If so, I'll make a special trip to the big city!)

I can't afford to have an electrician come in and change things right
now, so no need to suggest it. (I will, eventually.)
--
8^)~~~ Sue (remove the x to e-mail)
~~~~~~
"I reserve the absolute right to be smarter
today than I was yesterday." -Adlai Stevenson

http://home.earthlink.net/~sme617

On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 21:14:43 GMT, Suzie-Q wrote:

I have an old home that has mostly the 2-prong outlets (without the
ground). There are 3-prong outlets in the new add-on and converted
garage, but that's beside the point.

One of the 2-prong outlets is broken and needs to be replaced, but all
I can find *locally* (it's a small town) are 3-prong outlets. My only
question is, does anyone even make the 2-prong outlets anymore?
(If so, I'll make a special trip to the big city!)

I can't afford to have an electrician come in and change things right
now, so no need to suggest it. (I will, eventually.)

Just use a modern outlet. Screw a ground wire into the outlet box, and
connect that to the ground screw on the outlet (the green one). It won't
be properly grounded (unless the box is actually grounded, which is
unlikely), but there's no harm in wiring it that way. It won't be any
worse for grounded appliances than using those three prong/two prong
adapters.


--
- Mike

Remove 'spambegone.net' and reverse to send e-mail.

"Mike Ruskai" wrote in message
.earthlink.net...
On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 21:14:43 GMT, Suzie-Q wrote:

I have an old home that has mostly the 2-prong outlets (without the
ground). There are 3-prong outlets in the new add-on and converted
garage, but that's beside the point.

One of the 2-prong outlets is broken and needs to be replaced, but all
I can find *locally* (it's a small town) are 3-prong outlets. My only
question is, does anyone even make the 2-prong outlets anymore?
(If so, I'll make a special trip to the big city!)

I can't afford to have an electrician come in and change things right
now, so no need to suggest it. (I will, eventually.)

Just use a modern outlet. Screw a ground wire into the outlet box, and
connect that to the ground screw on the outlet (the green one). It won't
be properly grounded (unless the box is actually grounded, which is
unlikely), but there's no harm in wiring it that way. It won't be any
worse for grounded appliances than using those three prong/two prong
adapters.

good way to get the next owner to curse you, expecting a 3 prong outlet to
be properly wired with a ground.

"Charles Spitzer" wrote in
:


"Mike Ruskai" wrote in message
t.earthlink.net...
On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 21:14:43 GMT, Suzie-Q wrote:

I have an old home that has mostly the 2-prong outlets (without the
ground). There are 3-prong outlets in the new add-on and converted
garage, but that's beside the point.

One of the 2-prong outlets is broken and needs to be replaced, but
all I can find *locally* (it's a small town) are 3-prong outlets. My
only question is, does anyone even make the 2-prong outlets anymore?
(If so, I'll make a special trip to the big city!)

I can't afford to have an electrician come in and change things right
now, so no need to suggest it. (I will, eventually.)

Just use a modern outlet. Screw a ground wire into the outlet box,
and connect that to the ground screw on the outlet (the green one).
It won't be properly grounded (unless the box is actually grounded,
which is unlikely), but there's no harm in wiring it that way. It
won't be any worse for grounded appliances than using those three
prong/two prong adapters.

good way to get the next owner to curse you, expecting a 3 prong outlet
to be properly wired with a ground.


I'm in that situation now One of the do-it-yourself wiring books I have
suggests using a GFI outlet in the absence of a proper ground. Does any
electrician type have an opinion on that?

Thanks,

Pick

GFI outlets do not work without a proper ground. (The "test" button
trips them, but the plug in tester will not). I know this because I
failed a CO because a GFI was on an ungrounded circuit (knob and tube).
I would up having to ground the whole circuit (which was wired with
14/2...just that the ground was "floating").

Jay

Pick wrote:


I'm in that situation now One of the do-it-yourself wiring books I have
suggests using a GFI outlet in the absence of a proper ground. Does any
electrician type have an opinion on that?

Thanks,

Pick

Jay wrote:
GFI outlets do not work without a proper ground. (The "test" button
trips them, but the plug in tester will not). I know this because I
failed a CO because a GFI was on an ungrounded circuit (knob and tube).
I would up having to ground the whole circuit (which was wired with
14/2...just that the ground was "floating").

Jay



What's a "CO"?

GFCI's work just fine without a ground. The NEC specifically allows you to
use them without a ground, but you're supposed to put a sticker on them
that says "NO EQUIPMENT GROUND". It doesn't have to pass that plug in
tester thing.

-Bob

In article ,
Jay wrote:
GFI outlets do not work without a proper ground.
...snipped...

Yes they do
--

Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland

According to Jay :
GFI outlets do not work without a proper ground. (The "test" button
trips them, but the plug in tester will not). I know this because I
failed a CO because a GFI was on an ungrounded circuit (knob and tube).

The inspector was either ignorant of the NEC, or, you misunderstood why
you failed inspection.

The NEC (and CEC) _explicitly_ approves GFCIs on ungrounded circuits for
renovation/repair work if you don't have a real ground.

They work just fine without grounds.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 15:00:21 -0700, Charles Spitzer wrote:

"Mike Ruskai" wrote in message

[snip]
Just use a modern outlet. Screw a ground wire into the outlet box, and
connect that to the ground screw on the outlet (the green one). It won't
be properly grounded (unless the box is actually grounded, which is
unlikely), but there's no harm in wiring it that way. It won't be any
worse for grounded appliances than using those three prong/two prong
adapters.

good way to get the next owner to curse you, expecting a 3 prong outlet to
be properly wired with a ground.

There are countless ways to annoy possible future owners of a house.
Unless a sale is imminent, worrying about future owners is no way to
dictate how to handle a simple problem like replacing a busted outlet. A
sale in this day and age would almost certainly be contingent upon
updating the wiring of the house, and no competent home inspector is going
to think one three-prong outlet in the middle of many two-prong outlets is
actually grounded.

There's no non-pedantic reason to hunt all over for an old outlet.


--
- Mike

Remove 'spambegone.net' and reverse to send e-mail.

Mike Ruskai wrote:



There's no non-pedantic reason to hunt all over for an old outlet.


89 cents for a two-pronger at home depot. I replaced two of them.
Mostly out of fear of lawsuits from someone who buys the house.

Jay

Mike Ruskai wrote:
On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 21:14:43 GMT, Suzie-Q wrote:


I have an old home that has mostly the 2-prong outlets (without the
ground). There are 3-prong outlets in the new add-on and converted
garage, but that's beside the point.

One of the 2-prong outlets is broken and needs to be replaced, but all
I can find *locally* (it's a small town) are 3-prong outlets. My only
question is, does anyone even make the 2-prong outlets anymore?
(If so, I'll make a special trip to the big city!)

I can't afford to have an electrician come in and change things right
now, so no need to suggest it. (I will, eventually.)


Just use a modern outlet. Screw a ground wire into the outlet box, and
connect that to the ground screw on the outlet (the green one). It won't
be properly grounded (unless the box is actually grounded, which is
unlikely), but there's no harm in wiring it that way. It won't be any
worse for grounded appliances than using those three prong/two prong
adapters.


--
- Mike

Remove 'spambegone.net' and reverse to send e-mail.




If you do that, please epoxy screws or something into the ground holes
on that outlet as a warning to everyone that it's *not* grounded.

Jeff

--
Jeff Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"My luck is so bad that if I bought a cemetery, people would stop dying."

On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 19:39:35 -0400, Jeff Wisnia wrote:

If you do that, please epoxy screws or something into the ground holes
on that outlet as a warning to everyone that it's *not* grounded.

Yeah, that's much more sensible than simply marking the outlet as not
grounded.


--
- Mike

Remove 'spambegone.net' and reverse to send e-mail.

According to Mike Ruskai :
On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 19:39:35 -0400, Jeff Wisnia wrote:

If you do that, please epoxy screws or something into the ground holes
on that outlet as a warning to everyone that it's *not* grounded.

Yeah, that's much more sensible than simply marking the outlet as not
grounded.

Right. Which is why the NEC explicitly disallows that.

The CEC used to recommend filling the third prong. Not anymore.

Install GFCIs, use the "not grounded" stickers that come with them and
stick 'em to all of the outlets you've protected with the GFCI.

That's all you need to do.

[Aside from NOT interconnecting grounds on outlets that are on a 2 wire
circuit.]
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

Mike Ruskai wrote:
On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 21:14:43 GMT, Suzie-Q wrote:

I have an old home that has mostly the 2-prong outlets (without the
ground). There are 3-prong outlets in the new add-on and converted
garage, but that's beside the point.

One of the 2-prong outlets is broken and needs to be replaced, but
all I can find *locally* (it's a small town) are 3-prong outlets. My
only question is, does anyone even make the 2-prong outlets anymore?
(If so, I'll make a special trip to the big city!)

I can't afford to have an electrician come in and change things right
now, so no need to suggest it. (I will, eventually.)

Just use a modern outlet. Screw a ground wire into the outlet box,
and connect that to the ground screw on the outlet (the green one).
It won't be properly grounded (unless the box is actually grounded,
which is unlikely), but there's no harm in wiring it that way. It
won't be any worse for grounded appliances than using those three
prong/two prong adapters.

Yea, that's what Bubal would do. It also happens to be really foolish
and dangerous. They make those rules because people can get killed.

They still make the old style outlet. You may need to visit an electric
supply house to find one. Even medium size cities usually have one. They
supply the pros.

If you check to make sure the box is grounded, it may be, then you can
use a modern outlet. But PLEASE Suzie, don't listen to Mike, if you are not
sure it has a ground, don't take the chance, do it right.

--
Joseph E. Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math

On Fri, 16 Apr 2004 00:34:19 GMT, Joseph Meehan wrote:

Mike Ruskai wrote:

Just use a modern outlet. Screw a ground wire into the outlet box,
and connect that to the ground screw on the outlet (the green one).
It won't be properly grounded (unless the box is actually grounded,
which is unlikely), but there's no harm in wiring it that way. It
won't be any worse for grounded appliances than using those three
prong/two prong adapters.

Yea, that's what Bubal would do. It also happens to be really foolish
and dangerous. They make those rules because people can get killed.

It's neither foolish nor dangerous. It's simply practical, and, as I
said, is precisely as safe as using plug adapters, which is what would
happen otherwise if a three-prong device needed to be plugged in.

The maximum reasonable paranoia would simply dictate that the outlet be
marked as not grounded. Your reaction is completely inappropriate and
even laughable.


--
- Mike

Remove 'spambegone.net' and reverse to send e-mail.

Mike Ruskai wrote:
.....

The maximum reasonable paranoia would simply dictate that the outlet
be marked as not grounded. Your reaction is completely inappropriate
and even laughable.

Whatever, Buba.

I just hope your advice (or actions) never cause someone harm.

--
Joseph E. Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math

Mike Ruskai wrote:
On Fri, 16 Apr 2004 00:34:19 GMT, Joseph Meehan wrote:

Mike Ruskai wrote:

Just use a modern outlet. Screw a ground wire into the outlet box,
and connect that to the ground screw on the outlet (the green one).
It won't be properly grounded (unless the box is actually grounded,
which is unlikely), but there's no harm in wiring it that way. It
won't be any worse for grounded appliances than using those three
prong/two prong adapters.

Yea, that's what Bubal would do. It also happens to be really
foolish and dangerous. They make those rules because people can get
killed.

It's neither foolish nor dangerous. It's simply practical, and, as I
said, is precisely as safe as using plug adapters, which is what would
happen otherwise if a three-prong device needed to be plugged in.

The maximum reasonable paranoia would simply dictate that the outlet
be marked as not grounded. Your reaction is completely inappropriate
and even laughable.

Stop by your local fire department and ask them if they think it is
paranoia.

--
Joseph E. Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math

Mike Ruskai wrote:
On Fri, 16 Apr 2004 00:34:19 GMT, Joseph Meehan wrote:


Mike Ruskai wrote:


Just use a modern outlet. Screw a ground wire into the outlet box,
and connect that to the ground screw on the outlet (the green one).
It won't be properly grounded (unless the box is actually grounded,
which is unlikely), but there's no harm in wiring it that way. It
won't be any worse for grounded appliances than using those three
prong/two prong adapters.

Yea, that's what Bubal would do. It also happens to be really foolish
and dangerous. They make those rules because people can get killed.


It's neither foolish nor dangerous. It's simply practical, and, as I
said, is precisely as safe as using plug adapters, which is what would
happen otherwise if a three-prong device needed to be plugged in.

"Precisely as safe", huh? I suppose so....it's "precisely as safe" as
some dumbo using an adaptor without establishing that the coverplate
screw is grounded and then connecting the adaptor's ground lug to it.
Three wire cords and grounded outlets were developed to protect users
from internal insulation failures in metal bodied tools and appliances.
They wouldn't have made that transition if there wasn't a growing
history of electrocutions from those kind of failures.

What you've overlooked is this: Someone (Me for example.) who's taken
the trouble to learn and understand why they started making grounded
outlets and tools and appliances with ground leads in their cords could
be snookered into believing they're "protected" when they're not, fooled
by that ungrounded 3-prong outlet you seem to think is no big deal.
That's not quite as bad as knowingly locking a door marked "Fire Exit"
from the outside, but from my point of view it's in the same vein.

Your responses lead me to the inescapable conclusion that your entire
alimentary tract has somehow become reversed...You'd profit from having
that condition corrected.

Jeff

snipped

--

Jeff Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"If you can smile when things are going wrong, you've thought of someone
to blame it on."

Two prong outlets are sold because you cannot and must not
put a three prong receptacle in a box that is not grounded.
Yes, what Mike Ruskai posted is completely irresponsible and
unacceptable.

Two choices. First, have a friend in any big city mail you
the two prong receptacle. They cost well less than $1. They
are sold in any Home Depot, Loews, Sears Hardware, etc. Two
prong outlets are that commonly available.

Second, install a Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter Duplex
Receptacle:
http://www.homedepot.com/prel80/HDUS...D=9876&pos=n04
Electrical code specifically lists the second solution -
which is also a safer solution. A sticky label, also required
by code, is provided warning that ground does not exist.
Attach label to GFI faceplate.

Both solutions are acceptable and meet quite specific code
requirements. If someone was hurt and insurance company found
what Mike Ruskai recommended, then insurance company probably
would not compensate or protect you. Then electrical
inspector would make a major evaluation of your building
causing even more money that must be spent immediately on an
electrician. Problems go on and on only because Mike could
not even appreciate a simple code requirement. Do not do as
Mike has posted. Friends in any city or the GFI are two valid
and safe solutions.

Suzie-Q wrote:
I have an old home that has mostly the 2-prong outlets (without the
ground). There are 3-prong outlets in the new add-on and converted
garage, but that's beside the point.

One of the 2-prong outlets is broken and needs to be replaced, but all
I can find *locally* (it's a small town) are 3-prong outlets. My only
question is, does anyone even make the 2-prong outlets anymore?
(If so, I'll make a special trip to the big city!)

I can't afford to have an electrician come in and change things right
now, so no need to suggest it. (I will, eventually.)

According to w_tom :

Second, install a Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter Duplex
Receptacle:
http://www.homedepot.com/prel80/HDUS...D=9876&pos=n04
Electrical code specifically lists the second solution -
which is also a safer solution. A sticky label, also required
by code, is provided warning that ground does not exist.
Attach label to GFI faceplate.

Once you install a GFCI outlet on a groundless circuit, you _are_
permitted to install/replace with ordinary three prong outlets
downstream of it (the GFCI itself is three prong obviously ;-),
provided:

a) you label them as GFCI-protected without ground
(stickers come with GFCIs for that purpose)
b) do not interconnect the grounds on any of the outlets.

I would not install a ground strap from a 3 wire outlet to the box:

a) it's pointless in most cases (often already accomplished by strap of
outlet on a metal box.)

b) May increase risk of ground wire interconnect in multiple outlets
(see (b) above) (ie: cable armor).

The ground prong in a groundless circuit is _supposed_ to be completely
un-connected. Half-measures make it more dangerous, not less.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

www.graybar.com
or
www.grainger.com

Both are authorized Leviton distributors. Part# is 223-I

I = Ivory and W = White

No need for the long drive. Both sites have 1-800#s if you have any
difficulties ordering online.


"Suzie-Q" wrote in message
...
I have an old home that has mostly the 2-prong outlets (without the
ground). There are 3-prong outlets in the new add-on and converted
garage, but that's beside the point.

One of the 2-prong outlets is broken and needs to be replaced, but all
I can find *locally* (it's a small town) are 3-prong outlets. My only
question is, does anyone even make the 2-prong outlets anymore?
(If so, I'll make a special trip to the big city!)

I can't afford to have an electrician come in and change things right
now, so no need to suggest it. (I will, eventually.)
--
8^)~~~ Sue (remove the x to e-mail)
~~~~~~
"I reserve the absolute right to be smarter
today than I was yesterday." -Adlai Stevenson

http://home.earthlink.net/~sme617

In article , Suzie-Q wrote:
I have an old home that has mostly the 2-prong outlets (without the
ground). There are 3-prong outlets in the new add-on and converted
garage, but that's beside the point.

One of the 2-prong outlets is broken and needs to be replaced, but all
I can find *locally* (it's a small town) are 3-prong outlets. My only
question is, does anyone even make the 2-prong outlets anymore?

Yes, and most hardware stores will have them, even in small towns.

If your local hardware stores don't have them, try a farm supply store. Or ask
at the local Farm Bureau Co-op (they probably won't sell them, but they
probably *will* be able to tell you who does).

On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 21:14:43 GMT, Suzie-Q
wrote:

I have an old home that has mostly the 2-prong outlets (without the
ground). There are 3-prong outlets in the new add-on and converted
garage, but that's beside the point.

That's pretty much the situation I'm in as well. My house was built
in the early 1920s and the original portion has all 2-prong outlets
and an old fusebox. The new 1960s addition has a breaker box on the
other side of the house and all 3-prong grounded outlets.

One of these days I'd love to run a new sub-panel to my detached
garage/worshop, but it would have to be off the new breaker box and
that's a HELL of a long run for wiring. The current power supply is
run off the fusebox and there's nothing I can change there without
replacing the entire box, which I'll do eventually but it's very low
priority.

Wish I had a solution for the problem.

As far as your problem is concerned, you can replace the 2-prong
outlet with a GFCI that is designed to be non-grounded, they are
available at any home center. They do still make 2-prong but they
seem to be pretty hard to come by in some areas.