|
2- vs. 3-prong outlets
I have an old home that has mostly the 2-prong outlets (without the
ground). There are 3-prong outlets in the new add-on and converted garage, but that's beside the point. One of the 2-prong outlets is broken and needs to be replaced, but all I can find *locally* (it's a small town) are 3-prong outlets. My only question is, does anyone even make the 2-prong outlets anymore? (If so, I'll make a special trip to the big city!) I can't afford to have an electrician come in and change things right now, so no need to suggest it. (I will, eventually.) -- 8^)~~~ Sue (remove the x to e-mail) ~~~~~~ "I reserve the absolute right to be smarter today than I was yesterday." -Adlai Stevenson http://home.earthlink.net/~sme617 |
2- vs. 3-prong outlets
On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 21:14:43 GMT, Suzie-Q wrote:
I have an old home that has mostly the 2-prong outlets (without the ground). There are 3-prong outlets in the new add-on and converted garage, but that's beside the point. One of the 2-prong outlets is broken and needs to be replaced, but all I can find *locally* (it's a small town) are 3-prong outlets. My only question is, does anyone even make the 2-prong outlets anymore? (If so, I'll make a special trip to the big city!) I can't afford to have an electrician come in and change things right now, so no need to suggest it. (I will, eventually.) Just use a modern outlet. Screw a ground wire into the outlet box, and connect that to the ground screw on the outlet (the green one). It won't be properly grounded (unless the box is actually grounded, which is unlikely), but there's no harm in wiring it that way. It won't be any worse for grounded appliances than using those three prong/two prong adapters. -- - Mike Remove 'spambegone.net' and reverse to send e-mail. |
2- vs. 3-prong outlets
"Mike Ruskai" wrote in message .earthlink.net... On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 21:14:43 GMT, Suzie-Q wrote: I have an old home that has mostly the 2-prong outlets (without the ground). There are 3-prong outlets in the new add-on and converted garage, but that's beside the point. One of the 2-prong outlets is broken and needs to be replaced, but all I can find *locally* (it's a small town) are 3-prong outlets. My only question is, does anyone even make the 2-prong outlets anymore? (If so, I'll make a special trip to the big city!) I can't afford to have an electrician come in and change things right now, so no need to suggest it. (I will, eventually.) Just use a modern outlet. Screw a ground wire into the outlet box, and connect that to the ground screw on the outlet (the green one). It won't be properly grounded (unless the box is actually grounded, which is unlikely), but there's no harm in wiring it that way. It won't be any worse for grounded appliances than using those three prong/two prong adapters. good way to get the next owner to curse you, expecting a 3 prong outlet to be properly wired with a ground. |
2- vs. 3-prong outlets
Mike Ruskai wrote:
On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 21:14:43 GMT, Suzie-Q wrote: I have an old home that has mostly the 2-prong outlets (without the ground). There are 3-prong outlets in the new add-on and converted garage, but that's beside the point. One of the 2-prong outlets is broken and needs to be replaced, but all I can find *locally* (it's a small town) are 3-prong outlets. My only question is, does anyone even make the 2-prong outlets anymore? (If so, I'll make a special trip to the big city!) I can't afford to have an electrician come in and change things right now, so no need to suggest it. (I will, eventually.) Just use a modern outlet. Screw a ground wire into the outlet box, and connect that to the ground screw on the outlet (the green one). It won't be properly grounded (unless the box is actually grounded, which is unlikely), but there's no harm in wiring it that way. It won't be any worse for grounded appliances than using those three prong/two prong adapters. -- - Mike Remove 'spambegone.net' and reverse to send e-mail. If you do that, please epoxy screws or something into the ground holes on that outlet as a warning to everyone that it's *not* grounded. Jeff -- Jeff Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE) "My luck is so bad that if I bought a cemetery, people would stop dying." |
2- vs. 3-prong outlets
"Charles Spitzer" wrote in
: "Mike Ruskai" wrote in message t.earthlink.net... On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 21:14:43 GMT, Suzie-Q wrote: I have an old home that has mostly the 2-prong outlets (without the ground). There are 3-prong outlets in the new add-on and converted garage, but that's beside the point. One of the 2-prong outlets is broken and needs to be replaced, but all I can find *locally* (it's a small town) are 3-prong outlets. My only question is, does anyone even make the 2-prong outlets anymore? (If so, I'll make a special trip to the big city!) I can't afford to have an electrician come in and change things right now, so no need to suggest it. (I will, eventually.) Just use a modern outlet. Screw a ground wire into the outlet box, and connect that to the ground screw on the outlet (the green one). It won't be properly grounded (unless the box is actually grounded, which is unlikely), but there's no harm in wiring it that way. It won't be any worse for grounded appliances than using those three prong/two prong adapters. good way to get the next owner to curse you, expecting a 3 prong outlet to be properly wired with a ground. I'm in that situation now:( One of the do-it-yourself wiring books I have suggests using a GFI outlet in the absence of a proper ground. Does any electrician type have an opinion on that? Thanks, Pick |
2- vs. 3-prong outlets
Mike Ruskai wrote:
On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 21:14:43 GMT, Suzie-Q wrote: I have an old home that has mostly the 2-prong outlets (without the ground). There are 3-prong outlets in the new add-on and converted garage, but that's beside the point. One of the 2-prong outlets is broken and needs to be replaced, but all I can find *locally* (it's a small town) are 3-prong outlets. My only question is, does anyone even make the 2-prong outlets anymore? (If so, I'll make a special trip to the big city!) I can't afford to have an electrician come in and change things right now, so no need to suggest it. (I will, eventually.) Just use a modern outlet. Screw a ground wire into the outlet box, and connect that to the ground screw on the outlet (the green one). It won't be properly grounded (unless the box is actually grounded, which is unlikely), but there's no harm in wiring it that way. It won't be any worse for grounded appliances than using those three prong/two prong adapters. Yea, that's what Bubal would do. It also happens to be really foolish and dangerous. They make those rules because people can get killed. They still make the old style outlet. You may need to visit an electric supply house to find one. Even medium size cities usually have one. They supply the pros. If you check to make sure the box is grounded, it may be, then you can use a modern outlet. But PLEASE Suzie, don't listen to Mike, if you are not sure it has a ground, don't take the chance, do it right. -- Joseph E. Meehan 26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math |
2- vs. 3-prong outlets
Two prong outlets are sold because you cannot and must not
put a three prong receptacle in a box that is not grounded. Yes, what Mike Ruskai posted is completely irresponsible and unacceptable. Two choices. First, have a friend in any big city mail you the two prong receptacle. They cost well less than $1. They are sold in any Home Depot, Loews, Sears Hardware, etc. Two prong outlets are that commonly available. Second, install a Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter Duplex Receptacle: http://www.homedepot.com/prel80/HDUS...D=9876&pos=n04 Electrical code specifically lists the second solution - which is also a safer solution. A sticky label, also required by code, is provided warning that ground does not exist. Attach label to GFI faceplate. Both solutions are acceptable and meet quite specific code requirements. If someone was hurt and insurance company found what Mike Ruskai recommended, then insurance company probably would not compensate or protect you. Then electrical inspector would make a major evaluation of your building causing even more money that must be spent immediately on an electrician. Problems go on and on only because Mike could not even appreciate a simple code requirement. Do not do as Mike has posted. Friends in any city or the GFI are two valid and safe solutions. Suzie-Q wrote: I have an old home that has mostly the 2-prong outlets (without the ground). There are 3-prong outlets in the new add-on and converted garage, but that's beside the point. One of the 2-prong outlets is broken and needs to be replaced, but all I can find *locally* (it's a small town) are 3-prong outlets. My only question is, does anyone even make the 2-prong outlets anymore? (If so, I'll make a special trip to the big city!) I can't afford to have an electrician come in and change things right now, so no need to suggest it. (I will, eventually.) |
2- vs. 3-prong outlets
www.graybar.com
or www.grainger.com Both are authorized Leviton distributors. Part# is 223-I I = Ivory and W = White No need for the long drive. Both sites have 1-800#s if you have any difficulties ordering online. "Suzie-Q" wrote in message ... I have an old home that has mostly the 2-prong outlets (without the ground). There are 3-prong outlets in the new add-on and converted garage, but that's beside the point. One of the 2-prong outlets is broken and needs to be replaced, but all I can find *locally* (it's a small town) are 3-prong outlets. My only question is, does anyone even make the 2-prong outlets anymore? (If so, I'll make a special trip to the big city!) I can't afford to have an electrician come in and change things right now, so no need to suggest it. (I will, eventually.) -- 8^)~~~ Sue (remove the x to e-mail) ~~~~~~ "I reserve the absolute right to be smarter today than I was yesterday." -Adlai Stevenson http://home.earthlink.net/~sme617 |
2- vs. 3-prong outlets
GFI outlets do not work without a proper ground. (The "test" button
trips them, but the plug in tester will not). I know this because I failed a CO because a GFI was on an ungrounded circuit (knob and tube). I would up having to ground the whole circuit (which was wired with 14/2...just that the ground was "floating"). Jay Pick wrote: I'm in that situation now:( One of the do-it-yourself wiring books I have suggests using a GFI outlet in the absence of a proper ground. Does any electrician type have an opinion on that? Thanks, Pick |
2- vs. 3-prong outlets
Jay wrote:
GFI outlets do not work without a proper ground. (The "test" button trips them, but the plug in tester will not). I know this because I failed a CO because a GFI was on an ungrounded circuit (knob and tube). I would up having to ground the whole circuit (which was wired with 14/2...just that the ground was "floating"). Jay What's a "CO"? GFCI's work just fine without a ground. The NEC specifically allows you to use them without a ground, but you're supposed to put a sticker on them that says "NO EQUIPMENT GROUND". It doesn't have to pass that plug in tester thing. -Bob |
2- vs. 3-prong outlets
zxcvbob wrote:
What's a "CO"? Certificate of occupancy. What one needs before one can move into a new = home. --=20 dadiOH _____________________________ dadiOH's dandies v3.0... ....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that. Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico ____________________________ |
2- vs. 3-prong outlets
In article , Suzie-Q wrote:
I have an old home that has mostly the 2-prong outlets (without the ground). There are 3-prong outlets in the new add-on and converted garage, but that's beside the point. One of the 2-prong outlets is broken and needs to be replaced, but all I can find *locally* (it's a small town) are 3-prong outlets. My only question is, does anyone even make the 2-prong outlets anymore? Yes, and most hardware stores will have them, even in small towns. If your local hardware stores don't have them, try a farm supply store. Or ask at the local Farm Bureau Co-op (they probably won't sell them, but they probably *will* be able to tell you who does). |
2- vs. 3-prong outlets
On Fri, 16 Apr 2004 00:34:19 GMT, Joseph Meehan wrote:
Mike Ruskai wrote: Just use a modern outlet. Screw a ground wire into the outlet box, and connect that to the ground screw on the outlet (the green one). It won't be properly grounded (unless the box is actually grounded, which is unlikely), but there's no harm in wiring it that way. It won't be any worse for grounded appliances than using those three prong/two prong adapters. Yea, that's what Bubal would do. It also happens to be really foolish and dangerous. They make those rules because people can get killed. It's neither foolish nor dangerous. It's simply practical, and, as I said, is precisely as safe as using plug adapters, which is what would happen otherwise if a three-prong device needed to be plugged in. The maximum reasonable paranoia would simply dictate that the outlet be marked as not grounded. Your reaction is completely inappropriate and even laughable. -- - Mike Remove 'spambegone.net' and reverse to send e-mail. |
2- vs. 3-prong outlets
On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 19:39:35 -0400, Jeff Wisnia wrote:
If you do that, please epoxy screws or something into the ground holes on that outlet as a warning to everyone that it's *not* grounded. Yeah, that's much more sensible than simply marking the outlet as not grounded. -- - Mike Remove 'spambegone.net' and reverse to send e-mail. |
2- vs. 3-prong outlets
On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 15:00:21 -0700, Charles Spitzer wrote:
"Mike Ruskai" wrote in message [snip] Just use a modern outlet. Screw a ground wire into the outlet box, and connect that to the ground screw on the outlet (the green one). It won't be properly grounded (unless the box is actually grounded, which is unlikely), but there's no harm in wiring it that way. It won't be any worse for grounded appliances than using those three prong/two prong adapters. good way to get the next owner to curse you, expecting a 3 prong outlet to be properly wired with a ground. There are countless ways to annoy possible future owners of a house. Unless a sale is imminent, worrying about future owners is no way to dictate how to handle a simple problem like replacing a busted outlet. A sale in this day and age would almost certainly be contingent upon updating the wiring of the house, and no competent home inspector is going to think one three-prong outlet in the middle of many two-prong outlets is actually grounded. There's no non-pedantic reason to hunt all over for an old outlet. -- - Mike Remove 'spambegone.net' and reverse to send e-mail. |
2- vs. 3-prong outlets
Mike Ruskai wrote:
..... The maximum reasonable paranoia would simply dictate that the outlet be marked as not grounded. Your reaction is completely inappropriate and even laughable. Whatever, Buba. I just hope your advice (or actions) never cause someone harm. -- Joseph E. Meehan 26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math |
2- vs. 3-prong outlets
|
2- vs. 3-prong outlets
According to Jay :
GFI outlets do not work without a proper ground. (The "test" button trips them, but the plug in tester will not). I know this because I failed a CO because a GFI was on an ungrounded circuit (knob and tube). The inspector was either ignorant of the NEC, or, you misunderstood why you failed inspection. The NEC (and CEC) _explicitly_ approves GFCIs on ungrounded circuits for renovation/repair work if you don't have a real ground. They work just fine without grounds. -- Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them. |
2- vs. 3-prong outlets
According to Mike Ruskai :
On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 19:39:35 -0400, Jeff Wisnia wrote: If you do that, please epoxy screws or something into the ground holes on that outlet as a warning to everyone that it's *not* grounded. Yeah, that's much more sensible than simply marking the outlet as not grounded. Right. Which is why the NEC explicitly disallows that. The CEC used to recommend filling the third prong. Not anymore. Install GFCIs, use the "not grounded" stickers that come with them and stick 'em to all of the outlets you've protected with the GFCI. That's all you need to do. [Aside from NOT interconnecting grounds on outlets that are on a 2 wire circuit.] -- Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them. |
2- vs. 3-prong outlets
According to w_tom :
Second, install a Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter Duplex Receptacle: http://www.homedepot.com/prel80/HDUS...D=9876&pos=n04 Electrical code specifically lists the second solution - which is also a safer solution. A sticky label, also required by code, is provided warning that ground does not exist. Attach label to GFI faceplate. Once you install a GFCI outlet on a groundless circuit, you _are_ permitted to install/replace with ordinary three prong outlets downstream of it (the GFCI itself is three prong obviously ;-), provided: a) you label them as GFCI-protected without ground (stickers come with GFCIs for that purpose) b) do not interconnect the grounds on any of the outlets. I would not install a ground strap from a 3 wire outlet to the box: a) it's pointless in most cases (often already accomplished by strap of outlet on a metal box.) b) May increase risk of ground wire interconnect in multiple outlets (see (b) above) (ie: cable armor). The ground prong in a groundless circuit is _supposed_ to be completely un-connected. Half-measures make it more dangerous, not less. -- Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them. |
2- vs. 3-prong outlets
Mike Ruskai wrote:
On Fri, 16 Apr 2004 00:34:19 GMT, Joseph Meehan wrote: Mike Ruskai wrote: Just use a modern outlet. Screw a ground wire into the outlet box, and connect that to the ground screw on the outlet (the green one). It won't be properly grounded (unless the box is actually grounded, which is unlikely), but there's no harm in wiring it that way. It won't be any worse for grounded appliances than using those three prong/two prong adapters. Yea, that's what Bubal would do. It also happens to be really foolish and dangerous. They make those rules because people can get killed. It's neither foolish nor dangerous. It's simply practical, and, as I said, is precisely as safe as using plug adapters, which is what would happen otherwise if a three-prong device needed to be plugged in. The maximum reasonable paranoia would simply dictate that the outlet be marked as not grounded. Your reaction is completely inappropriate and even laughable. Stop by your local fire department and ask them if they think it is paranoia. -- Joseph E. Meehan 26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math |
2- vs. 3-prong outlets
zxcvbob wrote: What's a "CO"? Certificate of Occupancy (as someone already answered). In my case I needed it to sell a home. GFCI's work just fine without a ground. The NEC specifically allows you to use them without a ground, but you're supposed to put a sticker on them that says "NO EQUIPMENT GROUND". It doesn't have to pass that plug in tester thing. A GFI in our bathroom failed with the "tester" because there was no ground. I grounded the outlet with a clip-lead to a copper pipe, and the GFI worked fine. So, in theory, I agree that a ground is not needed. I'm not sure that is true in practice. And the best response for a Code Inspector is "Yes, Sir". :+) Do they make "two prong" GFCIs? I guess the GFI "breakers" are the best answer (except for the trip to the basement everytime one trips). Jay |
2- vs. 3-prong outlets
Mike Ruskai wrote: There's no non-pedantic reason to hunt all over for an old outlet. 89 cents for a two-pronger at home depot. I replaced two of them. Mostly out of fear of lawsuits from someone who buys the house. Jay |
2- vs. 3-prong outlets
Chris Lewis wrote: According to Jay : GFI outlets do not work without a proper ground. (The "test" button trips them, but the plug in tester will not). I know this because I failed a CO because a GFI was on an ungrounded circuit (knob and tube). The inspector was either ignorant of the NEC, or, you misunderstood why you failed inspection. The NEC (and CEC) _explicitly_ approves GFCIs on ungrounded circuits for renovation/repair work if you don't have a real ground. They work just fine without grounds. OK. Let me correct this. The "tester" failed to trip the GFI. Maybe it would work if you jammed a fork in the slots or something. I wasn't about to argue with the Code Inspector for a $10 fix. Jay |
2- vs. 3-prong outlets
First your created a serious human safety problem. No wire
must connect to a pipe to dump electricity in that pipe. The electrical inspection probably failed because an outlet without ground did not have the necessary (code required) label "No equipment ground". So instead, you created a threat to human life. GFI works when test button is pressed because that is how a GFI works. Electrical inspector simply discovered a missing ground on a three prong plug without any indication of that missing ground - a code violation. He did not fail the GFI. He failed the missing safety ground. Now for that pipe problem. Again, you have created a human safety problem especially for people standing in water in a bathroom. The idea is not to pass the inspection. The idea is to make a safe house. Jay wrote: A GFI in our bathroom failed with the "tester" because there was no ground. I grounded the outlet with a clip-lead to a copper pipe, and the GFI worked fine. So, in theory, I agree that a ground is not needed. I'm not sure that is true in practice. And the best response for a Code Inspector is "Yes, Sir". :+) Do they make "two prong" GFCIs? I guess the GFI "breakers" are the best answer (except for the trip to the basement everytime one trips). |
2- vs. 3-prong outlets
Mike Ruskai wrote: On Fri, 16 Apr 2004 00:34:19 GMT, Joseph Meehan wrote: Mike Ruskai wrote: Just use a modern outlet. Screw a ground wire into the outlet box, and connect that to the ground screw on the outlet (the green one). It won't be properly grounded (unless the box is actually grounded, which is unlikely), but there's no harm in wiring it that way. It won't be any worse for grounded appliances than using those three prong/two prong adapters. Yea, that's what Bubal would do. It also happens to be really foolish and dangerous. They make those rules because people can get killed. It's neither foolish nor dangerous. It's simply practical, and, as I said, is precisely as safe as using plug adapters, which is what would happen otherwise if a three-prong device needed to be plugged in. "Precisely as safe", huh? I suppose so....it's "precisely as safe" as some dumbo using an adaptor without establishing that the coverplate screw is grounded and then connecting the adaptor's ground lug to it. Three wire cords and grounded outlets were developed to protect users from internal insulation failures in metal bodied tools and appliances. They wouldn't have made that transition if there wasn't a growing history of electrocutions from those kind of failures. What you've overlooked is this: Someone (Me for example.) who's taken the trouble to learn and understand why they started making grounded outlets and tools and appliances with ground leads in their cords could be snookered into believing they're "protected" when they're not, fooled by that ungrounded 3-prong outlet you seem to think is no big deal. That's not quite as bad as knowingly locking a door marked "Fire Exit" from the outside, but from my point of view it's in the same vein. Your responses lead me to the inescapable conclusion that your entire alimentary tract has somehow become reversed...You'd profit from having that condition corrected. Jeff snipped -- Jeff Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE) "If you can smile when things are going wrong, you've thought of someone to blame it on." |
2- vs. 3-prong outlets
They work just fine without grounds.
OK. Let me correct this. The "tester" failed to trip the GFI. Maybe it would work if you jammed a fork in the slots or something. I wasn't about to argue with the Code Inspector for a $10 fix. Ah.. That's different. The test-device failed to trip the GFCI because it tried to produce a ground-fault to the ground plug. The GFCI didn't trip because there was no fault. |
2- vs. 3-prong outlets
On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 21:14:43 GMT, Suzie-Q
wrote: I have an old home that has mostly the 2-prong outlets (without the ground). There are 3-prong outlets in the new add-on and converted garage, but that's beside the point. That's pretty much the situation I'm in as well. My house was built in the early 1920s and the original portion has all 2-prong outlets and an old fusebox. The new 1960s addition has a breaker box on the other side of the house and all 3-prong grounded outlets. One of these days I'd love to run a new sub-panel to my detached garage/worshop, but it would have to be off the new breaker box and that's a HELL of a long run for wiring. The current power supply is run off the fusebox and there's nothing I can change there without replacing the entire box, which I'll do eventually but it's very low priority. Wish I had a solution for the problem. As far as your problem is concerned, you can replace the 2-prong outlet with a GFCI that is designed to be non-grounded, they are available at any home center. They do still make 2-prong but they seem to be pretty hard to come by in some areas. |
2- vs. 3-prong outlets
w_tom wrote: First your created a serious human safety problem. No wire must connect to a pipe to dump electricity in that pipe. But that is what our breaker box does. The ground connects to the water main. It was like that when we moved in. Is it now code to drive a rod into the ground for an approved ground? GFI works when test button is pressed because that is how a GFI works. Electrical inspector simply discovered a missing ground on a three prong plug without any indication of that missing ground - a code violation. He did not fail the GFI. He failed the missing safety ground. I bought a tester as well. It failed to trip (in addition to indicating the missing ground.) Fixing the ground fixed both problems. Maybe the testers isn't worth a damn, but it certainly showed more than the "test" button on the GFI box. Now for that pipe problem. Again, you have created a human safety problem especially for people standing in water in a bathroom. I grounded a previously ungrounded circuit. The 14/2 wiring was effectively 14/0 (floating ground). The ground no longer floats and goes to earth ground through half inch copper pipe. I would think I made the entire circuit safer in that now all the fixture housings are grounded to earth ground rather than floating. The idea is not to pass the inspection. The idea is to make a safe house. The prime directive was to make the house safe. Passing the inspection was a goal, however. Thanks for your comments, Jay |
2- vs. 3-prong outlets
According to Jay :
Chris Lewis wrote: According to Jay : GFI outlets do not work without a proper ground. (The "test" button trips them, but the plug in tester will not). I know this because I failed a CO because a GFI was on an ungrounded circuit (knob and tube). The inspector was either ignorant of the NEC, or, you misunderstood why you failed inspection. The NEC (and CEC) _explicitly_ approves GFCIs on ungrounded circuits for renovation/repair work if you don't have a real ground. They work just fine without grounds. OK. Let me correct this. The "tester" failed to trip the GFI. Maybe it would work if you jammed a fork in the slots or something. I wasn't about to argue with the Code Inspector for a $10 fix. If the "tester" the inspector used "tested" the GFI by shunting current to the ground prong, there's two possibilities: 1) The inspector did not take into account the _clear_ wording in the NEC that permits three prong GFCIs (without any ground whatsoever) as a substitute for grounding. 2) He tested another outlet, and faulted you for not having the sticker. There's a third possibility: he figured that getting a "real ground" was sufficiently easy that you _should_ do it anyway. The fact that you could for $10 means it was worth it. I suggest you peruse http://www.faqs.org/faqs/electrical-...ection-35.html -- Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them. |
2- vs. 3-prong outlets
Test button on GFI makes GFI respond to the only thing GFI
sees. Yes, the ground is helpful to make receptacle safer for human. But a new human safety threat has been created that probably cannot be found by future owners. Again, never dump electricity into a pipe. The connection from breaker box to water pipe is to remove electricity (a fault) from that pipe (water pipe connection must also be five feet from where pipe contacts earth ground). Since early 1990s, code requires a dedicated ground to earth. This is different from safety ground to receptacles. Earth and safety grounds are interconnected, but they serve different functions. Why did inspector fail that GFI? Because it had no safety ground AND did not say it had no safety ground. So instead of connecting to a safety ground or instead of installing that required label, you dumped electricity into the pipes. You did not fix the problem. You cured a symptom. What happens when the plumber replaces metal pipe with plastic. You must assume that will happen because he might do just that. Now we have an even worse safety problem. Failed appliance dumping electricity into a pipe. Electricity finds no path to breaker box, so circuit breaker does not trip. Human, standing in bathtub water, touches faucet and dies. All because the symptom of a problem was cured rather than problem cured. Never dump electricity into pipes - a human safety problem. Value and purpose of tester: it can find a failure but will never prove wiring is correct. For example, a 36 AWG sliver could fall down and make a ground connection. Tester would declare ground as OK. But ground is not. When that safety ground is necessary, instead the sliver vaporizes or disconnects. Tester does not report a good condition. Tester only reports failures. Test button on GFI tests GFI operation. Tester's test button tests for a missing safety ground. Each button looks for a different failure. It does sound rather complicated. But this is directly traceable to a problem created before 1962(?): 14 gauge wire without the necessary safety ground. Code offers simple (kludge) solution. GFI with the attached "no equipment ground" label. GFI with label is safer than GFI safety ground electricity dumped into copper water pipe. BTW, if you think routing a safety ground wire cannot be done, the you have not seen why electrician have all those fancy tools and tricks. The best solution remains a safety ground wire to that outlet. Some interconnected appliances may be intermittent or damaged if that equipment ground is not provided - a concept that may be beyond the scope of this original problem. But another reason why that attached "no ground" provides useful information. Jay wrote: w_tom wrote: First your created a serious human safety problem. No wire must connect to a pipe to dump electricity in that pipe. But that is what our breaker box does. The ground connects to the water main. It was like that when we moved in. Is it now code to drive a rod into the ground for an approved ground? GFI works when test button is pressed because that is how a GFI works. Electrical inspector simply discovered a missing ground on a three prong plug without any indication of that missing ground - a code violation. He did not fail the GFI. He failed the missing safety ground. I bought a tester as well. It failed to trip (in addition to indicating the missing ground.) Fixing the ground fixed both problems. Maybe the testers isn't worth a damn, but it certainly showed more than the "test" button on the GFI box. Now for that pipe problem. Again, you have created a human safety problem especially for people standing in water in a bathroom. I grounded a previously ungrounded circuit. The 14/2 wiring was effectively 14/0 (floating ground). The ground no longer floats and goes to earth ground through half inch copper pipe. I would think I made the entire circuit safer in that now all the fixture housings are grounded to earth ground rather than floating. The idea is not to pass the inspection. The idea is to make a safe house. The prime directive was to make the house safe. Passing the inspection was a goal, however. |
| All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:56 AM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2014 DIYbanter