Gren wrote:

Oh boy. Just this past friday, my wife, our broker, an indepedant
inspector and I converged and met regarding a house we're looking to
buy. We love this house, and really have begun to dream about what we
can do with it. It's a little bit of a fixer-upper, but nothing
crazy... or so I thought.

Enter.. the inspector. "Hmm.. well.. that roof is an issue" "Oh?"
It turns out, the seller never replaced the roof.. they just layered
it. 4 -6 layers of shingles. We had an opportunity to get in the
attic and see the roof from the inside-out and found there was NO
plywood sublayer for the shingles. They were nail directly onto the
rafters and then scaled. No sublayer.. no tar paper.. just shingles.
4-5 layers of 'em.

SO. (1) We need a new roof.. the whole thing ripped up and replaced
with plywood (or whatever that first layer is) and shingles.

Next thing. (2) 60 amp electrical service to the house. (ugh)
ORIGINAL and ACTIVE knob and tube wiring throughout. I would say
10-20% of the house is knob and tube/fuses.. the rest on a curcuit
breaker. Need to have it updated to 100/200 amp service.

annnddd.. (3) some wood boring beetle damage in the basement. One
load-bearing girder and the stairs leading into the basement need to
be replaced/treated.

that's the major stuff. we've asked the seller to address these
issues.. I'm just afraid of the fact that although we've fallen in
love with this home, the roof might be a serious problem and could
lead to us passing on the home.

I honestly don't know how much these various tasks will cost the
seller to fix. I'm guessing (I could be way off) but.. 10k for the
roof, 1.5k for the electrical (60 amp to 100 amp) and 1.5k for girder
to be jacked/replaced and new stairs. And this is to be performed by
licensed contractors, not by the seller's buddy handyman.

purchase price for home.. 154k. my 'estimated' cost for seller to
repair these issues: at least 13k. (could be much higher, I dunno)

need advice.

Please clarify: Do you have a signed contract on this property?
If so, does it state that the seller will perform repairs the
inspector finds? Or, does it say you can back out of the contract.

If not under contract, all you can do is make an offer based on
the defects found.

While the roof and beetle-bored beams may be an issue, the 60 Amp
service and K&T wiring is not unless mandated by FHA or the local
city.

I'm not being critical; I just get the feeling that you need to get
up to speed on the whole home-purchase process.

Jim

Gren wrote:

Oh boy. Just this past friday, my wife, our broker, an
indepedant inspector and I converged and met regarding a house

(details snipped)

purchase price for home.. 154k. my 'estimated' cost for
seller to repair these issues: at least 13k. (could be much
higher, I dunno)

need advice.

Talk with your broker about making the repair issue part of
your offer, there are several ways that can be accomplished.
You might need to pay an engineer and/or general contractor
for a firm estimate, but you'll need one. If your state has
laws requiring full seller disclosure of all known problems,
the sellers might be required by law to add these issues to
their statement if they haven't already done so. IOW, they
can't just cross their fingers and try to blow them past
other interested buyers. Your broker might need to gently
remind their broker about that :-)

Like any other deal, it all depends on how bad they want to
sell the place, and if they're willing to meet your demands.
That's why there are offers and counters. You can ask for
the moon if your broker will work with you and try to get
it, but the seller can always laugh at you and tell you to
go away.

--
No more big'uns for me, now I'm a 'Venture Capitalist'.
I've learned to totally appreciate 'Small Firms'.

I would try to find out if that was once a legitimate method of building a
roof. If not I would be concerned about how the whole house is built and
walk away. I don't think your description of the roof can be accurate.
Shingles would not have the strength to do their job nailed directly to
rafters no matter how many layers you got. The first layer has to be
something special.




"Gren" wrote in message
om...
Oh boy. Just this past friday, my wife, our broker, an indepedant
inspector and I converged and met regarding a house we're looking to
buy. We love this house, and really have begun to dream about what we
can do with it. It's a little bit of a fixer-upper, but nothing
crazy... or so I thought.

Enter.. the inspector. "Hmm.. well.. that roof is an issue" "Oh?"
It turns out, the seller never replaced the roof.. they just layered
it. 4 -6 layers of shingles. We had an opportunity to get in the
attic and see the roof from the inside-out and found there was NO
plywood sublayer for the shingles. They were nail directly onto the
rafters and then scaled. No sublayer.. no tar paper.. just shingles.
4-5 layers of 'em.

SO. (1) We need a new roof.. the whole thing ripped up and replaced
with plywood (or whatever that first layer is) and shingles.

Next thing. (2) 60 amp electrical service to the house. (ugh)
ORIGINAL and ACTIVE knob and tube wiring throughout. I would say
10-20% of the house is knob and tube/fuses.. the rest on a curcuit
breaker. Need to have it updated to 100/200 amp service.

annnddd.. (3) some wood boring beetle damage in the basement. One
load-bearing girder and the stairs leading into the basement need to
be replaced/treated.

that's the major stuff. we've asked the seller to address these
issues.. I'm just afraid of the fact that although we've fallen in
love with this home, the roof might be a serious problem and could
lead to us passing on the home.

I honestly don't know how much these various tasks will cost the
seller to fix. I'm guessing (I could be way off) but.. 10k for the
roof, 1.5k for the electrical (60 amp to 100 amp) and 1.5k for girder
to be jacked/replaced and new stairs. And this is to be performed by
licensed contractors, not by the seller's buddy handyman.

purchase price for home.. 154k. my 'estimated' cost for seller to
repair these issues: at least 13k. (could be much higher, I dunno)

need advice.

Gren wrote:

Oh boy. Just this past friday, my wife, our broker, an indepedant
inspector and I converged and met regarding a house we're looking to
buy. We love this house, and really have begun to dream about what we
can do with it. It's a little bit of a fixer-upper, but nothing
crazy... or so I thought.

Enter.. the inspector. "Hmm.. well.. that roof is an issue" "Oh?"
It turns out, the seller never replaced the roof.. they just layered
it. 4 -6 layers of shingles. We had an opportunity to get in the
attic and see the roof from the inside-out and found there was NO
plywood sublayer for the shingles. They were nail directly onto the
rafters and then scaled. No sublayer.. no tar paper.. just shingles.
4-5 layers of 'em.

SO. (1) We need a new roof.. the whole thing ripped up and replaced
with plywood (or whatever that first layer is) and shingles.

Next thing. (2) 60 amp electrical service to the house. (ugh)
ORIGINAL and ACTIVE knob and tube wiring throughout. I would say
10-20% of the house is knob and tube/fuses.. the rest on a curcuit
breaker. Need to have it updated to 100/200 amp service.

annnddd.. (3) some wood boring beetle damage in the basement. One
load-bearing girder and the stairs leading into the basement need to
be replaced/treated.

that's the major stuff. we've asked the seller to address these
issues.. I'm just afraid of the fact that although we've fallen in
love with this home, the roof might be a serious problem and could
lead to us passing on the home.

I honestly don't know how much these various tasks will cost the
seller to fix. I'm guessing (I could be way off) but.. 10k for the
roof, 1.5k for the electrical (60 amp to 100 amp) and 1.5k for girder
to be jacked/replaced and new stairs. And this is to be performed by
licensed contractors, not by the seller's buddy handyman.

purchase price for home.. 154k. my 'estimated' cost for seller to
repair these issues: at least 13k. (could be much higher, I dunno)

need advice.
WALK,,, W A L K and dont look back...

On 14 Mar 2004 18:04:36 -0800, (Gren) wrote:

Oh boy. Just this past friday, my wife, our broker, an indepedant
inspector and I converged and met regarding a house we're looking to
buy. We love this house, and really have begun to dream about what we
can do with it. It's a little bit of a fixer-upper, but nothing
crazy... or so I thought.

Enter.. the inspector. "Hmm.. well.. that roof is an issue" "Oh?"
It turns out, the seller never replaced the roof.. they just layered
it. 4 -6 layers of shingles. We had an opportunity to get in the
attic and see the roof from the inside-out and found there was NO
plywood sublayer for the shingles. They were nail directly onto the
rafters and then scaled. No sublayer.. no tar paper.. just shingles.
4-5 layers of 'em.

SO. (1) We need a new roof.. the whole thing ripped up and replaced
with plywood (or whatever that first layer is) and shingles.

So?

Next thing. (2) 60 amp electrical service to the house. (ugh)
ORIGINAL and ACTIVE knob and tube wiring throughout. I would say
10-20% of the house is knob and tube/fuses.. the rest on a curcuit
breaker. Need to have it updated to 100/200 amp service.

So?

annnddd.. (3) some wood boring beetle damage in the basement. One
load-bearing girder and the stairs leading into the basement need to
be replaced/treated.

So?

that's the major stuff. we've asked the seller to address these
issues.. I'm just afraid of the fact that although we've fallen in
love with this home, the roof might be a serious problem and could
lead to us passing on the home.

Bingo! That's your problem. You're not willing to walk away from the
house.

I honestly don't know how much these various tasks will cost the
seller to fix. I'm guessing (I could be way off) but.. 10k for the
roof, 1.5k for the electrical (60 amp to 100 amp) and 1.5k for girder
to be jacked/replaced and new stairs. And this is to be performed by
licensed contractors, not by the seller's buddy handyman.

Or the new buyer. Nothing says the owner has to or will fix them.

purchase price for home.. 154k. my 'estimated' cost for seller to
repair these issues: at least 13k. (could be much higher, I dunno)

Get estimates from professionals before you guess yourself to the poor
house.

need advice.

Take the deal as is, ask seller to do repairs or ask seller to drop
the price by the cost of the repairs. If you are intersted in the
second two options, be prepared to walk away from the deal.

But you already knew this.

Jeff

Gren wrote:
Oh boy. Just this past friday, my wife, our broker, an indepedant
inspector and I converged and met regarding a house we're looking to
buy. We love this house, and really have begun to dream about what we
can do with it. It's a little bit of a fixer-upper, but nothing
crazy... or so I thought.

Enter.. the inspector. "Hmm.. well.. that roof is an issue" "Oh?"
It turns out, the seller never replaced the roof.. they just layered
it. 4 -6 layers of shingles. We had an opportunity to get in the
attic and see the roof from the inside-out and found there was NO
plywood sublayer for the shingles. They were nail directly onto the
rafters and then scaled. No sublayer.. no tar paper.. just shingles.
4-5 layers of 'em.

Since rafters are generally 16" - 24" apart, I suspect that is not
exactly the case. However it does appear you should plan on a new roof.
Get an estimate from a professional to bring it up to norms.


SO. (1) We need a new roof.. the whole thing ripped up and replaced
with plywood (or whatever that first layer is) and shingles.

Next thing. (2) 60 amp electrical service to the house. (ugh)
ORIGINAL and ACTIVE knob and tube wiring throughout. I would say
10-20% of the house is knob and tube/fuses.. the rest on a curcuit
breaker. Need to have it updated to 100/200 amp service.

I would plan on updating it myself, but as noted by another, you may not
need to. Knob and tube was a great wiring system. However it is likely you
don't have the capacity to handle modern home demands any more and a new
system is in order.


annnddd.. (3) some wood boring beetle damage in the basement. One
load-bearing girder and the stairs leading into the basement need to
be replaced/treated.

Yea, again get an estimated. Local situations and the actual job on all
these issues can make a very big difference in the cost of correcting them.

If you like the home, then nothing you noted should cross it off the
list. However everything you noted should be a part of the price you should
be willing to pay.

A note here about price. I'll guess your broker is getting paid based
on the sales price. That makes him or her the seller's agent, not yours.
If this is the case, find a professional who will help you for a flat fee
and let them help you set a bid price for the home after taking into
consideration everything you found.

It amazes me that people think the buyer's relater is on their side when
they are paid to get the buyer to pay more.


that's the major stuff. we've asked the seller to address these
issues.. I'm just afraid of the fact that although we've fallen in
love with this home, the roof might be a serious problem and could
lead to us passing on the home.

I honestly don't know how much these various tasks will cost the
seller to fix. I'm guessing (I could be way off) but.. 10k for the
roof, 1.5k for the electrical (60 amp to 100 amp) and 1.5k for girder
to be jacked/replaced and new stairs. And this is to be performed by
licensed contractors, not by the seller's buddy handyman.

purchase price for home.. 154k. my 'estimated' cost for seller to
repair these issues: at least 13k. (could be much higher, I dunno)

need advice.

--
Joseph E. Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math

Art wrote:

I would try to find out if that was once a legitimate method of building a
roof. If not I would be concerned about how the whole house is built and
walk away. I don't think your description of the roof can be accurate.
Shingles would not have the strength to do their job nailed directly to
rafters no matter how many layers you got. The first layer has to be
something special.

I'm guessing cedar. We recently sold a house we bought long ago with a roof
just like this. 4 or more layers of asphalt over the original cedar roof.
There were no problems buying then, or selling now, as long as the roof
didn't leak. That's all they cared about was leaking.

PRose

"Gren" wrote in message
om...
Oh boy. Just this past friday, my wife, our broker, an indepedant
inspector and I converged and met regarding a house we're looking to
buy. We love this house, and really have begun to dream about what we
can do with it. It's a little bit of a fixer-upper, but nothing
crazy... or so I thought.

need advice.

Simple really. It comes down to two choices.

Choice #1. Buy the house "as is" at a price that will allow for the
repairs. Keep in mind that other parts of the house probably need drastic
updating also. You are not just buying a house to live in, this is a house
that will be a part time job renovating for a few years. If you are not
interested in doing all of that, see the next choice.

Choice #2 is to walk away. There are other houses out there.

There is an alternative to Choice #1. Dig a big hole. Throw money into it
every week.
Ed

WALK WALK WALK WALK WALK WALK

Otherwise you're gonna be real sorry....

The world is filled with houses......you just have to be patient and WAIT
WAIT WAIT WAIT


"Gren" wrote in message
om...
Oh boy. Just this past friday, my wife, our broker, an indepedant
inspector and I converged and met regarding a house we're looking to
buy. We love this house, and really have begun to dream about what we
can do with it. It's a little bit of a fixer-upper, but nothing
crazy... or so I thought.

Enter.. the inspector. "Hmm.. well.. that roof is an issue" "Oh?"
It turns out, the seller never replaced the roof.. they just layered
it. 4 -6 layers of shingles. We had an opportunity to get in the
attic and see the roof from the inside-out and found there was NO
plywood sublayer for the shingles. They were nail directly onto the
rafters and then scaled. No sublayer.. no tar paper.. just shingles.
4-5 layers of 'em.

SO. (1) We need a new roof.. the whole thing ripped up and replaced
with plywood (or whatever that first layer is) and shingles.

Next thing. (2) 60 amp electrical service to the house. (ugh)
ORIGINAL and ACTIVE knob and tube wiring throughout. I would say
10-20% of the house is knob and tube/fuses.. the rest on a curcuit
breaker. Need to have it updated to 100/200 amp service.

annnddd.. (3) some wood boring beetle damage in the basement. One
load-bearing girder and the stairs leading into the basement need to
be replaced/treated.

that's the major stuff. we've asked the seller to address these
issues.. I'm just afraid of the fact that although we've fallen in
love with this home, the roof might be a serious problem and could
lead to us passing on the home.

I honestly don't know how much these various tasks will cost the
seller to fix. I'm guessing (I could be way off) but.. 10k for the
roof, 1.5k for the electrical (60 amp to 100 amp) and 1.5k for girder
to be jacked/replaced and new stairs. And this is to be performed by
licensed contractors, not by the seller's buddy handyman.

purchase price for home.. 154k. my 'estimated' cost for seller to
repair these issues: at least 13k. (could be much higher, I dunno)

need advice.

"Gren" wrote in message
om...
Oh boy. Just this past friday, my wife, our broker, an indepedant
inspector and I converged and met regarding a house we're looking to
buy. We love this house, and really have begun to dream about what we
can do with it. It's a little bit of a fixer-upper, but nothing
crazy... or so I thought.

Enter.. the inspector. "Hmm.. well.. that roof is an issue" "Oh?"
It turns out, the seller never replaced the roof.. they just layered
it. 4 -6 layers of shingles. We had an opportunity to get in the
attic and see the roof from the inside-out and found there was NO
plywood sublayer for the shingles. They were nail directly onto the
rafters and then scaled. No sublayer.. no tar paper.. just shingles.
4-5 layers of 'em.

SO. (1) We need a new roof.. the whole thing ripped up and replaced
with plywood (or whatever that first layer is) and shingles.

Next thing. (2) 60 amp electrical service to the house. (ugh)
ORIGINAL and ACTIVE knob and tube wiring throughout. I would say
10-20% of the house is knob and tube/fuses.. the rest on a curcuit
breaker. Need to have it updated to 100/200 amp service.

annnddd.. (3) some wood boring beetle damage in the basement. One
load-bearing girder and the stairs leading into the basement need to
be replaced/treated.

that's the major stuff. we've asked the seller to address these
issues.. I'm just afraid of the fact that although we've fallen in
love with this home, the roof might be a serious problem and could
lead to us passing on the home.

I honestly don't know how much these various tasks will cost the
seller to fix. I'm guessing (I could be way off) but.. 10k for the
roof, 1.5k for the electrical (60 amp to 100 amp) and 1.5k for girder
to be jacked/replaced and new stairs. And this is to be performed by
licensed contractors, not by the seller's buddy handyman.

purchase price for home.. 154k. my 'estimated' cost for seller to
repair these issues: at least 13k. (could be much higher, I dunno)

need advice.

Do your home work, call your insurance man and ask what the premium will be,
you may be in for a shock.

Get contractors to bid on the repairs BEFORE you make an offer. Provide
their bids with your offer at the new reduced price.

Check with the local jurisdictional authority and ask questions before your
offer. You may be required to do more than what the inspector found.

Assume the owner understands all of this and then PRAY that they are
reasonable. I just purchased an newer home. One seller lowered the price 5K
then demanded the buyer pay all the closing costs. Doing the math it was
more than the original price. House is still vacant, going on 4 months now.
3 blocks from the home I bought. Really dumb in my opinion

On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 12:13:47 GMT, Jeff Cochran
wrote:

Take the deal as is, ask seller to do repairs or ask seller to drop
the price by the cost of the repairs. If you are intersted in the
second two options, be prepared to walk away from the deal.

Don't let the sellers do any repairs: walk away if they won't adjust
the selling price of the house or give you a credit toward those
repairs.

I bought a fixer-upper, but I can fix things myself including re-wiring the
entire house. If you can't do these things yourself, then it will be costly
to make repairs.

The way I look at it, I can buy a house at a bargain price, fix it up, then
have a home in good condition for much less than the cost of a new "perfect
condition" home. Also I am willing to live in a house with defects for
several years until I get around to fixing everything.

If you need to hire contractors to do everything, then you should only buy
the house for a price which is low enough so that after fixing everything,
your total cost for the house is about what a similar "perfect house" in
the area is selling for. But then there is the money issue. You may be able
to negotiate a low purchase price, but may not be able to come up with 15
or 20 thousand for repairs after purchase.

If you want a perfect condition house right away, then you might be better
off buying one from the get-go...

In article , Gren says...

we have a signed sales contract.. We, as the buyers don't have to
contact contractors for estimates.. it's up to the seller. We've
considering amending the sales contract to accomodate the repair costs
for the seller.. for example.. if it costs the seller 10k and we paid
154k, either the seller can pay out of pocket, or we can pay some and
lower our bid amount. Also, according to the inspector, he said
insurance underwriters would most likely not allow the 60 amp service
to the house. We thought to ask the seller to bring it up to 100 amp,
and then I'll pay out of pocket for the electrician, while he's there,
to bring it from 100 to 200 amp.

Like was earlier mentioned, if this falls through, the seller is just
going to run into another buyer with similar demands. We can look at
it this way, the seller is being 'penalized' for living 40 years in
the house and NOT addressing these issues.


He may not CARE - by his estimation the house worked for him for 40 years. And,
truth be told, another buyer may not CARE either - taking it for granted that a
lot of stuff gets ripped out and redone anyway.


I haven't even mentioned the host of other smaller problems we're not
asking the seller to address. Duct tape holding cabinet drawers
closed... The fact we have to prime and repaint every room in the
house, because of smoke stained walls. The water-heater is on year
11. The exterior garage is falling apart, we'll have to demolish and
rebuild. etc, etc.

I don't want you to think this place is a dump, it's a bungalow style
home built in 1915 with a fantastic foundation, beautiful woodwork
throughout and the structure is solidly built.

We're just hoping the seller is reasonable enough to address these
problems on his own accord. He bought the house about 40 years ago; I
would think he'd have the mortgage paid off by now, so I assume he's
not waiting on our monies to pay off all kinds of debt. Hopefully this
would make it somewhat easier for him to take a small hit on the bid
price to fix some of the stuff he never did, and not lump it in our
lap.

We'll see

You're even talking *paint*?? Look, unless your state is a *lot* different from
mine, this is stuff you take into account as to whether or not you buy the
house, and the seller's responsibilities have to do with disclosure about the
condition, not with the condition.

The seller's main concern is as to how saleable his house is. Sure, he may find
the house hard to sell to someone else with no updates, but, hey, obviously
*you* will buy so he's not wrong in his estimation as to the saleability of the
house, now is he!

You can try to talk him down in price after getting the estimates, but he very
well may have taken the tack of putting the house on the market already priced
down to make up for the lack of updates (has he - that's what a realtor would
know). You can make *him* do the repairs, but really I think *you'd* rather do
it rather than have the seller throw some repairs on. *You'd* rather get the
estimates, too, else he'd get some bottom-of-barrel price for you.

It still comes down to: Do you want the house, and at what price? Unless your
state socks a lot on the seller more than I would imagine.

Banty

This old house that knew his children,
This old house that knew his wife,
This old house was home and comfort,
While they fought the storms of life.

On 15 Mar 2004 09:30:58 -0800, Gren wrote:
we have a signed sales contract.. We, as the buyers don't have to
contact contractors for estimates.. it's up to the seller. We've
considering amending the sales contract to accomodate the repair costs
for the seller.. for example.. if it costs the seller 10k and we paid
154k, either the seller can pay out of pocket, or we can pay some and
lower our bid amount. Also, according to the inspector, he said
insurance underwriters would most likely not allow the 60 amp service
to the house. We thought to ask the seller to bring it up to 100 amp,
and then I'll pay out of pocket for the electrician, while he's there,
to bring it from 100 to 200 amp.


Relying on the seller to get bids and do the work is absolutely,
positively nuts. He'll take the lowest estimate, and use the shoddiest
contractor possible, because it's simply not in his best interest
to do otherwise. If you really want the house, then you have no
reasonable option but to handle the repairs yourself. As for the 60 amp
service - don't bet on the insurance company minding. When we bought
our house with 60 amp service a couple of years ago, Allstate couldn't
care less.

Like was earlier mentioned, if this falls through, the seller is just
going to run into another buyer with similar demands. We can look at
it this way, the seller is being 'penalized' for living 40 years in
the house and NOT addressing these issues.


Or he'll have a buyer who doesn't mind. It really doesn't make
a difference to a lot of people, particularly second or third time
home-buyers - they realize that all used houses are going to need work,
and don't jump on every little fault as if it's the end of the world.

I haven't even mentioned the host of other smaller problems we're not
asking the seller to address. Duct tape holding cabinet drawers
closed... The fact we have to prime and repaint every room in the
house, because of smoke stained walls. The water-heater is on year
11. The exterior garage is falling apart, we'll have to demolish and
rebuild. etc, etc.

Yes? So? Those details are generally what you have to deal with
when you buy a house almost 100 years old. Paint and nails are very cheap.
Water heaters are cheap. Demolishing a garage isn't cheap, but it's
not the end of the world, either.



I don't want you to think this place is a dump, it's a bungalow style
home built in 1915 with a fantastic foundation, beautiful woodwork
throughout and the structure is solidly built.

We're just hoping the seller is reasonable enough to address these
problems on his own accord. He bought the house about 40 years ago; I
would think he'd have the mortgage paid off by now, so I assume he's
not waiting on our monies to pay off all kinds of debt. Hopefully this
would make it somewhat easier for him to take a small hit on the bid
price to fix some of the stuff he never did, and not lump it in our
lap.
We'll see

It's going to depend on the market. I can guarantee that if it really is
a nice house, someone who knows how to use a hammer will come along
and snap the house up without trying to nickle-and-dime the owner
down on problems with an old house.

On 15 Mar 2004 09:30:58 -0800, (Gren) wrote:

| we have a signed sales contract.. We, as the buyers don't have to
| contact contractors for estimates.. it's up to the seller. We've
| considering amending the sales contract to accomodate the repair costs
| for the seller.. for example.. if it costs the seller 10k and we paid
| 154k, either the seller can pay out of pocket, or we can pay some and
| lower our bid amount. Also, according to the inspector, he said
| insurance underwriters would most likely not allow the 60 amp service
| to the house. We thought to ask the seller to bring it up to 100 amp,
| and then I'll pay out of pocket for the electrician, while he's there,
| to bring it from 100 to 200 amp.
|
| Like was earlier mentioned, if this falls through, the seller is just
| going to run into another buyer with similar demands. We can look at
| it this way, the seller is being 'penalized' for living 40 years in
| the house and NOT addressing these issues.
|
| I haven't even mentioned the host of other smaller problems we're not
| asking the seller to address. Duct tape holding cabinet drawers
| closed... The fact we have to prime and repaint every room in the
| house, because of smoke stained walls. The water-heater is on year
| 11. The exterior garage is falling apart, we'll have to demolish and
| rebuild. etc, etc.
|
| I don't want you to think this place is a dump, it's a bungalow style
| home built in 1915 with a fantastic foundation, beautiful woodwork
| throughout and the structure is solidly built.
|
| We're just hoping the seller is reasonable enough to address these
| problems on his own accord. He bought the house about 40 years ago; I
| would think he'd have the mortgage paid off by now, so I assume he's
| not waiting on our monies to pay off all kinds of debt. Hopefully this
| would make it somewhat easier for him to take a small hit on the bid
| price to fix some of the stuff he never did, and not lump it in our
| lap.
|
| We'll see


Sounds like a similar scenario to ours when we bought our 1921
Craftsman/Colonial house in 1981. Tile roof but with actual holes in
it. Some termite damage. Bank required a closet in two bedrooms
without any. Missing woodwork. Broken windows. 115V 60-amp service.
Tree limbs draped over the roof. Nine cats and two doggies pooping in
the basement. No grass in the back yard. Interior mostly painted
Pepto-Bismol pink. Missing storm windows. Lien on the furnace. No
paint left on the trim. Owners completely broke.

We got them to take all the cats and dogs and take up the smelly
wall-to-wall carpets and treat the termites. Period.

Oh, and come down on the price $55,000.

(Childfree Scott) wrote in message . com...
Next thing. (2) 60 amp electrical service to the house. (ugh)
ORIGINAL and ACTIVE knob and tube wiring throughout. I would say
10-20% of the house is knob and tube/fuses.. the rest on a curcuit
breaker. Need to have it updated to 100/200 amp service.

You won't be able to get homeowners insurance with wiring like this.

A definite concern, but not necessarily impossible. Around here there
is one major insurer who will cover K&T houses *if* the home
inspection was done by one particular inspection company and they sign
a standard form to the effect that there appears to be no immediate
hazard, or somesuch. Any well-informed real-estate agent should know
the issues in your region.

(I presume the original poster meant that the rest of the house is on
a panel with breakers, not all on "a" circuit breaker ... I hope!)

Of the original poster's problems, the insect infestation is the one
that I'd worry most about ...

Chip C
Toronto

this is one to walk away from unless you're willing to spend the next 10
years finding all the other stuff wrong......

fixer-uppersa re great if you've got the time and money to do the work (and
can stand living ina construction site), but be realistic about what you can
do and put up with. Also, don't count on the inspection to find evefrthing -
theres all kinds of stuff going on inside the walls that they can't see. If
you have (had) termites,powder post beetles, or some other wood-destroying
bug in hte main support beam, what makes you think they didn't also nibble
on studs, floor joists, etc. You can't see most of those until you open up
the wall......

I'd let this one go..

__JD



"Gren" wrote in message
om...
Oh boy. Just this past friday, my wife, our broker, an indepedant
inspector and I converged and met regarding a house we're looking to
buy. We love this house, and really have begun to dream about what we
can do with it. It's a little bit of a fixer-upper, but nothing
crazy... or so I thought.

Enter.. the inspector. "Hmm.. well.. that roof is an issue" "Oh?"
It turns out, the seller never replaced the roof.. they just layered
it. 4 -6 layers of shingles. We had an opportunity to get in the
attic and see the roof from the inside-out and found there was NO
plywood sublayer for the shingles. They were nail directly onto the
rafters and then scaled. No sublayer.. no tar paper.. just shingles.
4-5 layers of 'em.

SO. (1) We need a new roof.. the whole thing ripped up and replaced
with plywood (or whatever that first layer is) and shingles.

Next thing. (2) 60 amp electrical service to the house. (ugh)
ORIGINAL and ACTIVE knob and tube wiring throughout. I would say
10-20% of the house is knob and tube/fuses.. the rest on a curcuit
breaker. Need to have it updated to 100/200 amp service.

annnddd.. (3) some wood boring beetle damage in the basement. One
load-bearing girder and the stairs leading into the basement need to
be replaced/treated.

that's the major stuff. we've asked the seller to address these
issues.. I'm just afraid of the fact that although we've fallen in
love with this home, the roof might be a serious problem and could
lead to us passing on the home.

I honestly don't know how much these various tasks will cost the
seller to fix. I'm guessing (I could be way off) but.. 10k for the
roof, 1.5k for the electrical (60 amp to 100 amp) and 1.5k for girder
to be jacked/replaced and new stairs. And this is to be performed by
licensed contractors, not by the seller's buddy handyman.

purchase price for home.. 154k. my 'estimated' cost for seller to
repair these issues: at least 13k. (could be much higher, I dunno)

need advice.

"Gren"

We'll see

Oh boy, you probably will.

You seem to be lacking both the contracting and construction skills for a
house this old.

The only other possible path to success that I see here is that you have a
buttload of money to blow, but that doesn't seem to be the case either with
your nickel and dime attitude toward what is likely less than 1% (no bull)
of the problem (and cost) with a place this old.

Maybe look into a nice modern little townhome out in the 'burbs. Leave
this one for one of the big boys - someone who can pound nails and negotiate
contracts a little better than you seem to be able.


- Nate

Gren,

Home inspectors usually take a beating on this board. They are called
"do nothings", "pawns for Realtors", people complain about minor
things the inspector missed, etc. In your case it looks like the
inspector found some things that saved you from making a costly
mistake. Do you think your inspector was worth his fee?

Regarding the roof, is it possible that the original roof was wood
shake over skip sheathing? Skip sheathing is boards with spaces
between them and is commonly used with a wood shake or wood shingle
roof. With your situation I would recommend that the entire roof be
removed and modern roof decking (either OSB or plywood) be installed;
then you can roof with composition shingles or whatever you want. And
make sure you use felt paper under the shingles and that all the
flashing is properly done.

The electrical system probably needs to be modernized. 60 amps is not
enough for most families today. And your main service panel probably
does not have enough circuits (more of an inconvenience than a
danger). Knob and tube wiring itself is not dangerous BUT it is
ungrounded (usually) and you also need to be sure insulation does not
cover the wiring in the attic (K&T wiring needs to be cooled by
free-flowing air). Is the service 120/240 volt? (Two wires coming to
the house is 120 volt and three wires is 120/240 volt. If it is only
120 then you won't be able to use most electric stoves and electric
clothes dryers.

If I were you I would make an offer based on what the repairs will
cost and do the repairs myself. That way you will know they were done
right.

Good luck.

PS - you called this a NEW home but it sounds like it is 60 or more
years old.

(Chip C) wrote in message . com...
(Childfree Scott) wrote in message . com...
Next thing. (2) 60 amp electrical service to the house. (ugh)
ORIGINAL and ACTIVE knob and tube wiring throughout. I would say
10-20% of the house is knob and tube/fuses.. the rest on a curcuit
breaker. Need to have it updated to 100/200 amp service.

You won't be able to get homeowners insurance with wiring like this.

A definite concern, but not necessarily impossible. Around here there
is one major insurer who will cover K&T houses *if* the home
inspection was done by one particular inspection company and they sign
a standard form to the effect that there appears to be no immediate
hazard, or somesuch. Any well-informed real-estate agent should know
the issues in your region.

(I presume the original poster meant that the rest of the house is on
a panel with breakers, not all on "a" circuit breaker ... I hope!)

Of the original poster's problems, the insect infestation is the one
that I'd worry most about ...

Chip C
Toronto

That's true for my daughter in Seattle.
Her insurer is urging her to have the wiring upgraded.

TB

I don't understand all the whining.

What ever happened to caveat emptor ?

"This is the house, as is" "This is the asking price"

You have the opportunity to inspect it.
Then, either
Buy it, make a counter-offer, or, move on.

I've heard of folks passing up on a $150k house
because it would soon need a $150 water heater.......

As for housing inspections required by the city,
it's little more than a sweetheart-deal between
the local contractors and the city politicians.
They know they've got the seller over a barrel.
Note that the city is never liable if their inspection
overlooks some major problem......

????
rj

Joseph E. Meehan “That makes him or her the seller's agent, not yours.
If this is the case, find a professional who will help you for a flat
fee” “It amazes me that people think the buyer's relater is on their
side when they are paid to get the buyer to pay more.”

The problem is that people buy into Meehan’s nonsense so easily. It’s
absurd to choose your REALTOR or real estate agent based on how much
they make. The problem isn’t with how much the agent makes but rather
getting past the sales presentation and discovering your agent’s
character. How do you do this? Simple present the agent with questions
or real life scenario’s and see what his/her answer is. Compare his
answer to others. The size of his company the name recognition is
irrelevant. It really comes down to a person with a real estate license
or equivalent of (attorney) that has a genuine respect for his/her
fiduciary duty AND has the experience, knowledge and fortitude to
fulfill that obligation. MONEY has nothing to do with it, unless of
course you allow yourself to be duped. In the later whatever results
you get are your own fault. Choosing a contractor should be handled
with the same care!!

1. SQLit made an excellent recommendation, get a C.L.U.E report
regarding homeowners insurance. You can do an Internet search or go to
my website below and find a link on the right panel.

2. Check with planning and zoning and ensure that there are no
outstanding violations or incomplete building permits. As mentioned,
ensure that the home is not on the historical register. Make sure there
are no ordinances that would increase the cost of the roof.

3. Most owners are too busy living in the home and don’t know that these
problems exist. It really depends on how much equity is in the property
and/or if the seller can afford the reduction/repairs regardless of
equity.

4. You can’t predict the future nor can the agent or appraiser. The
cost of the repairs is hard to pin down, even you have written bids.
You have to get a contractor with experience most of all with each
issue. This should be your job if your really love the house. You
don’t want to leave it up to someone who is leaving.

Finally buying a home that is 90 years old is a gamble and you must be
able to cover the bet once you place it. If you enjoy repairs and are
looking forward to being a weekend warrior then buy it less the repair
bids times 1.5. Underwriters with Mortgage Companies always require
allowed escrow repairs to include a slush you should to either in price
or cash.

GOOD LUCK!


There comes a time in the affairs of man when he must take the bull by
the tail and face the situation. -- WCF
http://www.utahhousevalues.com

Nevertheless, unless you appoint the realtor as "buyer's agent" (and
agrees to pay his/her commission if it cannot be collected from the
listing agent), "your" realtor is really acting as sub-agent to the
listing agent and cannot give you independent advice.

That is my understanding, based on our recent purchase of a property in
Michigan (it could vary from State to State). And no, we did not pay
"our" realtor any commission: he collected from the listing agent.

MB


On 03/15/04 09:29 pm Darrell put fingers to keyboard and launched the
following message into cyberspace:

Joseph E. Meehan “That makes him or her the seller's agent, not yours.
If this is the case, find a professional who will help you for a flat
fee” “It amazes me that people think the buyer's relater is on their
side when they are paid to get the buyer to pay more.”

The problem is that people buy into Meehan’s nonsense so easily. It’s
absurd to choose your REALTOR or real estate agent based on how much
they make. The problem isn’t with how much the agent makes but rather
getting past the sales presentation and discovering your agent’s
character. How do you do this? Simple present the agent with questions
or real life scenario’s and see what his/her answer is. Compare his
answer to others. The size of his company the name recognition is
irrelevant. It really comes down to a person with a real estate license
or equivalent of (attorney) that has a genuine respect for his/her
fiduciary duty AND has the experience, knowledge and fortitude to
fulfill that obligation. MONEY has nothing to do with it, unless of
course you allow yourself to be duped. In the later whatever results
you get are your own fault. Choosing a contractor should be handled
with the same care!!

"Gren" wrote in message
om...
we have a signed sales contract.. We, as the buyers don't have to
contact contractors for estimates.. it's up to the seller. We've
considering amending the sales contract to accomodate the repair costs
for the seller.. for example.. if it costs the seller 10k and we paid
154k, either the seller can pay out of pocket, or we can pay some and
lower our bid amount. Also, according to the inspector, he said
insurance underwriters would most likely not allow the 60 amp service
to the house. We thought to ask the seller to bring it up to 100 amp,
and then I'll pay out of pocket for the electrician, while he's there,
to bring it from 100 to 200 amp.

I went to one open house where the owners had just installed a new 100
amp service. The price was right for them because the electrician was
one of their grandsons. If I'd bought the house, that new work would be
coming right out to be replaced by a 200 amp service.


I haven't even mentioned the host of other smaller problems we're not
asking the seller to address. Duct tape holding cabinet drawers
closed... The fact we have to prime and repaint every room in the
house, because of smoke stained walls. The water-heater is on year
11. The exterior garage is falling apart, we'll have to demolish and
rebuild. etc, etc.

Be careful about rebuilding the garage, because the zoning laws have
probably changed so that it no longer inside the minimum property line
setback, even though it was when it was built. Make sure that you can
get a permit that allows you to replace the garage in its original
location. I know of at least two houses where the garage was torn down
but not replaced, and now the current owners have no space to build.

Mike

Darrell wrote in message ...
Joseph E. Meehan ?That makes him or her the seller's agent, not yours.
If this is the case, find a professional who will help you for a flat
fee? ?It amazes me that people think the buyer's relater is on their
side when they are paid to get the buyer to pay more.?

The problem is that people buy into Meehan?s nonsense so easily. It?s
absurd to choose your REALTOR or real estate agent based on how much
they make. The problem isn?t with how much the agent makes but rather
getting past the sales presentation and discovering your agent?s
character. How do you do this? Simple present the agent with questions
or real life scenario?s and see what his/her answer is. Compare his
answer to others. The size of his company the name recognition is
irrelevant. It really comes down to a person with a real estate license
or equivalent of (attorney) that has a genuine respect for his/her
fiduciary duty AND has the experience, knowledge and fortitude to
fulfill that obligation. MONEY has nothing to do with it, unless of
course you allow yourself to be duped. In the later whatever results
you get are your own fault. Choosing a contractor should be handled
with the same care!!



Now this is really special. Someone is supposed to determine a real
estate agents character by asking a few questions with real life
scenarios. Are you serious? If it were that simple, there would be
no con artists or flim flam salesman around. The good scammers are
quite adept at convincing people they are reputable and even a not so
good one can probably handle a few questions in a typical interview.

And the point Meehan made is totally valid. The sales agent
representing the seller has a conflict of interest in that he
contractually represents the seller to get the place sold and his
commission is based on the sales price. The higher the sales price,
the more dollars earned.

I don't think everyone necessarily needs an independent party to help
them. If you have some time and smarts, you can sit down and look at
similar recent sales to determine for yourself what the house is
worth. And hopefully people are smart enough to know to do things
like get a home inspection clause in their contract. Or how about
your nice idea of checking for any outstanding zoning violations? Do
you think the seller's agent is going to suggest that to the buyer?
As a buyer, if you think the seller's agent is working to protect your
interests, you are making a big mistake.




1. SQLit made an excellent recommendation, get a C.L.U.E report
regarding homeowners insurance. You can do an Internet search or go to
my website below and find a link on the right panel.

2. Check with planning and zoning and ensure that there are no
outstanding violations or incomplete building permits. As mentioned,
ensure that the home is not on the historical register. Make sure there
are no ordinances that would increase the cost of the roof.

3. Most owners are too busy living in the home and don?t know that these
problems exist. It really depends on how much equity is in the property
and/or if the seller can afford the reduction/repairs regardless of
equity.

4. You can?t predict the future nor can the agent or appraiser. The
cost of the repairs is hard to pin down, even you have written bids.
You have to get a contractor with experience most of all with each
issue. This should be your job if your really love the house. You
don?t want to leave it up to someone who is leaving.

Finally buying a home that is 90 years old is a gamble and you must be
able to cover the bet once you place it. If you enjoy repairs and are
looking forward to being a weekend warrior then buy it less the repair
bids times 1.5. Underwriters with Mortgage Companies always require
allowed escrow repairs to include a slush you should to either in price
or cash.

GOOD LUCK!


There comes a time in the affairs of man when he must take the bull by
the tail and face the situation. -- WCF
http://www.utahhousevalues.com

We're just hoping the seller is reasonable enough to address these
problems on his own accord. He bought the house about 40 years ago; I
would think he'd have the mortgage paid off by now, so I assume he's
not waiting on our monies to pay off all kinds of debt. Hopefully this
would make it somewhat easier for him to take a small hit on the bid
price to fix some of the stuff he never did, and not lump it in our
lap.

You can find out how much the seller owes on the house - it is public record.
Shame on your real estate agent for not pointing that out to you.

As for the 60 amp
service - don't bet on the insurance company minding. When we bought
our house with 60 amp service a couple of years ago, Allstate couldn't
care less.

Its not the amps - it is the wire and post wiring. Talk about fire hazzards!
You will likely find some insurer somewhere who will insure you, but you
had better bet the rate will be more than my house!

And I personally would not live in such a hazardous house.

On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 19:18:35 GMT, "BeamGuy" wrote:


We're just hoping the seller is reasonable enough to address these
problems on his own accord. He bought the house about 40 years ago; I
would think he'd have the mortgage paid off by now, so I assume he's
not waiting on our monies to pay off all kinds of debt. Hopefully this
would make it somewhat easier for him to take a small hit on the bid
price to fix some of the stuff he never did, and not lump it in our
lap.

You can find out how much the seller owes on the house - it is public record.
Shame on your real estate agent for not pointing that out to you.


In what state would that be public record?

Minnie Bannister wrote:

Nevertheless, unless you appoint the realtor as "buyer's agent" (and
agrees to pay his/her commission if it cannot be collected from the
listing agent), "your" realtor is really acting as sub-agent to the
listing agent and cannot give you independent advice.


As stated, varies by state. Here in Colorado, sub-agency is not legal
anymore (as of 1/1/03), so your agent is either a buyers agent, or
"transaction broker" (independent, no fiduciary duty to buyer OR
seller).

That is my understanding, based on our recent purchase of a property in
Michigan (it could vary from State to State). And no, we did not pay
"our" realtor any commission: he collected from the listing agent.

Technically, I bet that YOU asked the listing agent to pay him. Check
your buyers agency contract, it probably says something (in legalese)
to the effect of "The buyer is responsible for paying the agent's
commission. However, we're going to ask everyone under the sun to
foot the cost, including the seller and the listing agent."



email to (remove the "notreal-")

(Gren) wrote:

we have a signed sales contract.. We, as the buyers don't have to
contact contractors for estimates.. it's up to the seller.

Not really. It's up to you to present a list of "inspection items" to
the seller, and ask for some sort of remedy such as having them fixed,
escrowing money after closing to pay for repairs, or reducing the
sales price.

The seller is free to tell you to take a flying leap, and walk away
from your contract at this point.


We've considering amending the sales contract to accomodate the repair costs
for the seller.. for example.. if it costs the seller 10k and we paid
154k, either the seller can pay out of pocket, or we can pay some and
lower our bid amount.

This would be one of the options I mentioned above. As stated, the
seller doesn't have to accept it. Make sure you get your inspection
notice turned in according to the terms of the contract. If you miss
the dates, your earnest money could be at risk if you walk away from
the deal.

We thought to ask the seller to bring it up to 100 amp,
and then I'll pay out of pocket for the electrician, while he's there,
to bring it from 100 to 200 amp.

Bad idea to pay for upgrades/repairs before you actually own the
house! Plenty of deals can fall apart before or even during closing,
at which point you've wasted money and given a gift to the seller.
Better idea would be to ask the seller to put $$$ in an escrowed
repair account, and then you take care of the upgrade after you close
on the house using the escrowed money.

Like was earlier mentioned, if this falls through, the seller is just
going to run into another buyer with similar demands.

As others have said, not necessarily. Here in Denver, there are some
older houses where the lot has more value than the house. Folks are
buying the home and then scraping it off and putting up a brand new
house.

We can look at
it this way, the seller is being 'penalized' for living 40 years in
the house and NOT addressing these issues.

You haven't mentioned the price of comparable homes in the area. Is
this house priced lower, or priced at the same level as other recent
sales? Has the owner already taken all this into account when he set
the price of the house? (You can't say for sure, but based on pricing
in the area you should have an idea)

The fact we have to prime and repaint every room in the
house, because of smoke stained walls.

Paint is cheap Standard advice to buyers is to look beyond the
paint, furnishings and decor, and look at the house itself. It's
simple and quick to repaint, so it shouldn't be an issue for you.

11. The exterior garage is falling apart, we'll have to demolish and
rebuild. etc, etc.

Different folks may have differing opinions on what "falling apart"
is, and how usable the current structure is, or if it's even
important. In other words, what may be important to you may be
irrelevant to the next person who looks at the house.


Just some things to consider IMHO. Good luck on the deal!

email to (remove the "notreal-")

Update:

Lots of very helpful posts, thank you. Negotiations have taken an
interesting turn. The seller does not want to pay for any of the
needed repairs, and instead, give us a flat fee in the form of a check
at closing. Let me also add some details. We're going into this
house purchase with a CFHA loan, meaning, as first time home buyers,
we can put less down at closing and lock in a lower interest rate..
BUT. the house has to pass fairly stringent FHA inspection guidlines.
The fact that the seller wants to give us a little money in the form
of a check at closing makes it difficult to address these issues
before then, and consequently, the fha inspector will most likely put
the kibosh on insuring the bank for our mortgage. (basically, we
won't be able to get a mortgage unless the seller deals with these
issues BEFORE closing) Also, the amount the seller wants to give us
is about 1/5th of the estimated repair costs, so.. this ain't gonna
fly.

We're going to contact the bank and talk to them about options of my
flexible loan types and more importantly, get some contractor
estimates for the major repairs to approach the seller with.

The roof, the load-bearing beam, the chimney (needs to be capped) and
electrical all need to be looked at and us given an estimate for their
repair. Armed with those estimates, I go to the seller and ask him to
address these issues. If he doesn't, we'll just walk away.

Andy Asberry wrote:

On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 19:18:35 GMT, "BeamGuy" wrote:


We're just hoping the seller is reasonable enough to address these
problems on his own accord. He bought the house about 40 years ago; I
would think he'd have the mortgage paid off by now, so I assume he's
not waiting on our monies to pay off all kinds of debt. Hopefully this
would make it somewhat easier for him to take a small hit on the bid
price to fix some of the stuff he never did, and not lump it in our
lap.

You can find out how much the seller owes on the house - it is public record.
Shame on your real estate agent for not pointing that out to you.


In what state would that be public record?

Liens (including mortgage) are public record. You won't know the
actual balance owed, but you'll know the initial amount of the
mortgage.


email to (remove the "notreal-")

In massacucetts it is held by the county "registry of deeds". All transactions and
mortgages are recorded there. In my county it is online.

"Andy Asberry" wrote in message ...
On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 19:18:35 GMT, "BeamGuy" wrote:


We're just hoping the seller is reasonable enough to address these
problems on his own accord. He bought the house about 40 years ago; I
would think he'd have the mortgage paid off by now, so I assume he's
not waiting on our monies to pay off all kinds of debt. Hopefully this
would make it somewhat easier for him to take a small hit on the bid
price to fix some of the stuff he never did, and not lump it in our
lap.

You can find out how much the seller owes on the house - it is public record.
Shame on your real estate agent for not pointing that out to you.


In what state would that be public record?

FHA is VERY STRINGENT. My buyer had an FHA loan and I nearly beaned her
over the things she and the inspector picked at. Considering she was
probably moving out of section 8 housing into my house which was PRISTINE I
was not a happy camper. It took quite some negotiation to get them to
overlook a 1/8 inch crack at the corner of one window, for example!

Good luck. Let FHA do the dirty work for you, perhaps then your buyer will
capitulate.

"Gren" wrote in message
om...
Update:

Lots of very helpful posts, thank you. Negotiations have taken an
interesting turn. The seller does not want to pay for any of the
needed repairs, and instead, give us a flat fee in the form of a check
at closing. Let me also add some details. We're going into this
house purchase with a CFHA loan, meaning, as first time home buyers,
we can put less down at closing and lock in a lower interest rate..
BUT. the house has to pass fairly stringent FHA inspection guidlines.
The fact that the seller wants to give us a little money in the form
of a check at closing makes it difficult to address these issues
before then, and consequently, the fha inspector will most likely put
the kibosh on insuring the bank for our mortgage. (basically, we
won't be able to get a mortgage unless the seller deals with these
issues BEFORE closing) Also, the amount the seller wants to give us
is about 1/5th of the estimated repair costs, so.. this ain't gonna
fly.

We're going to contact the bank and talk to them about options of my
flexible loan types and more importantly, get some contractor
estimates for the major repairs to approach the seller with.

The roof, the load-bearing beam, the chimney (needs to be capped) and
electrical all need to be looked at and us given an estimate for their
repair. Armed with those estimates, I go to the seller and ask him to
address these issues. If he doesn't, we'll just walk away.

Even without FHA it would be a bloody battle. The seller's position seems to
be "I'm selling pretty much as is, take it or leave it". He's entirely
entitled to that position. Unfortunately, it may not be acceptable to you. I
would just start looking elsewhere.

Good luck.

"Betsy" -0 wrote in message
...
FHA is VERY STRINGENT. My buyer had an FHA loan and I nearly beaned her
over the things she and the inspector picked at. Considering she was
probably moving out of section 8 housing into my house which was PRISTINE
I
was not a happy camper. It took quite some negotiation to get them to
overlook a 1/8 inch crack at the corner of one window, for example!

Good luck. Let FHA do the dirty work for you, perhaps then your buyer
will
capitulate.

"Gren" wrote in message
om...
Update:

Lots of very helpful posts, thank you. Negotiations have taken an
interesting turn. The seller does not want to pay for any of the
needed repairs, and instead, give us a flat fee in the form of a check
at closing. Let me also add some details. We're going into this
house purchase with a CFHA loan, meaning, as first time home buyers,
we can put less down at closing and lock in a lower interest rate..
BUT. the house has to pass fairly stringent FHA inspection guidlines.
The fact that the seller wants to give us a little money in the form
of a check at closing makes it difficult to address these issues
before then, and consequently, the fha inspector will most likely put
the kibosh on insuring the bank for our mortgage. (basically, we
won't be able to get a mortgage unless the seller deals with these
issues BEFORE closing) Also, the amount the seller wants to give us
is about 1/5th of the estimated repair costs, so.. this ain't gonna
fly.

We're going to contact the bank and talk to them about options of my
flexible loan types and more importantly, get some contractor
estimates for the major repairs to approach the seller with.

The roof, the load-bearing beam, the chimney (needs to be capped) and
electrical all need to be looked at and us given an estimate for their
repair. Armed with those estimates, I go to the seller and ask him to
address these issues. If he doesn't, we'll just walk away.

On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 14:15:31 GMT, "BeamGuy" wrote:

In massacucetts it is held by the county "registry of deeds". All transactions and
mortgages are recorded there. In my county it is online.

Interesting. How is that kept up to date as payments are made? I'm
referring to your statement that "...how much the seller owes on the
house - it is public record."

"Andy Asberry" wrote in message ...
On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 19:18:35 GMT, "BeamGuy" wrote:


We're just hoping the seller is reasonable enough to address these
problems on his own accord. He bought the house about 40 years ago; I
would think he'd have the mortgage paid off by now, so I assume he's
not waiting on our monies to pay off all kinds of debt. Hopefully this
would make it somewhat easier for him to take a small hit on the bid
price to fix some of the stuff he never did, and not lump it in our
lap.

You can find out how much the seller owes on the house - it is public record.
Shame on your real estate agent for not pointing that out to you.


In what state would that be public record?

"Betsy" -0 wrote in message
...
FHA is VERY STRINGENT. My buyer had an FHA loan and I nearly beaned her
over the things she and the inspector picked at. Considering she was
probably moving out of section 8 housing into my house which was PRISTINE
I
was not a happy camper. It took quite some negotiation to get them to
overlook a 1/8 inch crack at the corner of one window, for example!


Then it wasnt pristine was it?
It always amazes me, considering the amount of work we do for real estate
companies, how the owners of the homes think they are simply perfect, while
they are always far from it. You always hear the same stories...."Thats been
there since we bought the home, and its never been touched...its PERFECT."
(Normally talking about the heating or air system, or the water heater..or
something that requires periodic service) and when we open it up to check
it...that comment is painfully obvious...and of course, it was installed in
1963.
The sellers NORMALLY refuse to admit anything is wrong with the home, even
after problems have been pointed out. What I always get a laugh out of, is
when the county inspectors, or the city inspectors come in prior to the
sale, and find tons of work that no permits have been pulled for, and then
the seller gets fined, and has to go pay 2X the price for permits to be
pulled and inspections to take place.
The buyers want everything perfect in a 50 year old home. It aint gonna
happen. They expect a 10 year old home to be like new....thats not gonna
happen either.
The only time the home is perfect, and like new, is after its constructed,
the final walkthrough has been perfect and all minor imperfections repaired.
Once you move someone into it, the wear and tear starts. The older the home,
the more things that may, possibly have been repaired wrong, or sloppy and
you get what you get.
It took us over a year to locate our current home...we knew good and well
what we bought. We found tons of issues that the seller was willing to
discuss, and after two weeks of looking the place over..having 3 different
home inspectors out, 2 county inspectors, and all of the crew that I work
with on remodels and new construction, we made an offer, much lower than the
asking price. If we got it, great. We liked the potential of the place. If
we didnt, ok..keep looking but at least now that all the issues have been
documented, it all fell under the states disclosure laws, and the next
potential buyer would know what was there.
The offer was accepted, no one pointed fingers...no one was upset, and the
seller was really amazed that we found so much wrong and could prove
it..they were simply uneducated in the matter. Next time, they have a better
idea, and we got what we wanted. When we go to sell it in a few years, I am
sure that we will not get the asking price, since I am not going to level
the place and start over, but we have increased the value, county records
show that..its been doubled in value in the last year....inspections and
permits help. Even if I put it on the market today, it would fetch more than
we paid for it. I cant complain there.



Good luck. Let FHA do the dirty work for you, perhaps then your buyer
will
capitulate.

Umm...you replied to the buyer. The seller probably could care less. When a
home is in that bad of shape, the seller probably knows that someone will
buy it, no matter the condition, and the offer the seller made to the buyer
is the best anyones gonna get. Period.
Also keep in mind that many times the FHA inspector isnt the brightest
crayon in the box. When we were in the process of this loan, we went FHA due
to the "better standards" the inspectors used. The first one called me and
said that there was a problem with the listed footage of the home....the
heated area was about half of its stated. Told him to stay put, and I would
be there in 5 minutes. Got to the home, and he was compliling a list....most
we knew, and were valid, but I was concerned about his comment about the
heated area. I asked what the problem was, and he stated that there were no
heating vents on the upper floor.
The upper floor was completely done in finished wood...floors, ceiling,
walls...and I asked if he had looked here, here, here, and here..oh..and
over here....
He stated that he had, so I went in, cut the fan on and took him back up and
showed him the vents....done in wood and blended into the surroundings.
Obvious as hell to me, but not to him.

Anytime you have issues listed on a report, and you want the home...go over
the list..you might find that it was a simple case of
misunderstanding.....and of course, the flip side is that you might find
more issues upon closer examination.



"Gren" wrote in message
om...
Update:

Lots of very helpful posts, thank you. Negotiations have taken an
interesting turn. The seller does not want to pay for any of the
needed repairs, and instead, give us a flat fee in the form of a check
at closing. Let me also add some details. We're going into this
house purchase with a CFHA loan, meaning, as first time home buyers,
we can put less down at closing and lock in a lower interest rate..
BUT. the house has to pass fairly stringent FHA inspection guidlines.
The fact that the seller wants to give us a little money in the form
of a check at closing makes it difficult to address these issues
before then, and consequently, the fha inspector will most likely put
the kibosh on insuring the bank for our mortgage. (basically, we
won't be able to get a mortgage unless the seller deals with these
issues BEFORE closing) Also, the amount the seller wants to give us
is about 1/5th of the estimated repair costs, so.. this ain't gonna
fly.

We're going to contact the bank and talk to them about options of my
flexible loan types and more importantly, get some contractor
estimates for the major repairs to approach the seller with.

The roof, the load-bearing beam, the chimney (needs to be capped) and
electrical all need to be looked at and us given an estimate for their
repair. Armed with those estimates, I go to the seller and ask him to
address these issues. If he doesn't, we'll just walk away.