I've had a pretty rough year for electricity at my house. Seems like
after every rain shower, someting elecronic stopped working. In
addition, about once a month, power flicks off just long enought to
set every piece of gear with a clock a-blinking. After hurricane
Isabel knocked out my power for 15 hours, I've decided to finally look
for a whole-house backup system.

To take care of the momentary outages and brownouts, a huge
battery-type UPS that was connected to the whole house would be ideal
(it seems.) There is actually a company (Banner Electric -
www.bannerbackup.com) that makes such a system and actually markets it
as replacements to generators - but I'm not sure exactly how long they
would keep a house running (even with loads minimized) plus there is
reference to a system costing $20,000 on their web site (ouch...)

I'd like to get the thoughts of anyone out there about the wisdom of
connecting the whole house to a big UPS. It seems to me like the ideal
system would have an automatic generator for extended outages but a
battery to handle short outages and to keep power flowing while the
generator started.

Well it is clear they are not advertising the time. That would make me
suspect that it is measured in minutes, at best.



--
Joseph E. Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math


"Rob Patrick" wrote in message
...
I've had a pretty rough year for electricity at my house. Seems like
after every rain shower, someting elecronic stopped working. In
addition, about once a month, power flicks off just long enought to
set every piece of gear with a clock a-blinking. After hurricane
Isabel knocked out my power for 15 hours, I've decided to finally look
for a whole-house backup system.

To take care of the momentary outages and brownouts, a huge
battery-type UPS that was connected to the whole house would be ideal
(it seems.) There is actually a company (Banner Electric -
www.bannerbackup.com) that makes such a system and actually markets it
as replacements to generators - but I'm not sure exactly how long they
would keep a house running (even with loads minimized) plus there is
reference to a system costing $20,000 on their web site (ouch...)

I'd like to get the thoughts of anyone out there about the wisdom of
connecting the whole house to a big UPS. It seems to me like the ideal
system would have an automatic generator for extended outages but a
battery to handle short outages and to keep power flowing while the
generator started.

Well it is clear they are not advertising the time. That would make me
suspect that it is measured in minutes, at best.



--
Joseph E. Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math


"Rob Patrick" wrote in message
...
I've had a pretty rough year for electricity at my house. Seems like
after every rain shower, someting elecronic stopped working. In
addition, about once a month, power flicks off just long enought to
set every piece of gear with a clock a-blinking. After hurricane
Isabel knocked out my power for 15 hours, I've decided to finally look
for a whole-house backup system.

To take care of the momentary outages and brownouts, a huge
battery-type UPS that was connected to the whole house would be ideal
(it seems.) There is actually a company (Banner Electric -
www.bannerbackup.com) that makes such a system and actually markets it
as replacements to generators - but I'm not sure exactly how long they
would keep a house running (even with loads minimized) plus there is
reference to a system costing $20,000 on their web site (ouch...)

I'd like to get the thoughts of anyone out there about the wisdom of
connecting the whole house to a big UPS. It seems to me like the ideal
system would have an automatic generator for extended outages but a
battery to handle short outages and to keep power flowing while the
generator started.

"Rob Patrick" wrote in message
...
I've had a pretty rough year for electricity at my house. Seems like
after every rain shower, someting elecronic stopped working. In
addition, about once a month, power flicks off just long enought to
set every piece of gear with a clock a-blinking. After hurricane
Isabel knocked out my power for 15 hours, I've decided to finally look
for a whole-house backup system.

To take care of the momentary outages and brownouts, a huge
battery-type UPS that was connected to the whole house would be ideal
(it seems.) There is actually a company (Banner Electric -
www.bannerbackup.com) that makes such a system and actually markets it
as replacements to generators - but I'm not sure exactly how long they
would keep a house running (even with loads minimized) plus there is
reference to a system costing $20,000 on their web site (ouch...)

I'd like to get the thoughts of anyone out there about the wisdom of
connecting the whole house to a big UPS. It seems to me like the ideal
system would have an automatic generator for extended outages but a
battery to handle short outages and to keep power flowing while the
generator started.

This is not a new idea, just new marketing. We have been running computer
rooms and other facilities that can not tolerate any power outages on
systems such as this for 20+ years. It works well, but it is not cheap.
Besides the initial cost, the batteries have to be replaced every few years,
the inefficiencies inherent in the system will raise your electric bill, and
the system itself can fail and require repairs. The amount of time you get
on a system depends on the power required and the number and size of the
batteries. There are all sorts of variations, but some of the facilities I
am familiar with have 20-30 minutes of battery power, which is sufficient to
start the backup generator or to shut down the equipment gracefully. It
does not seem to make sense for the average homeowner.

"Rob Patrick" wrote in message
...
I've had a pretty rough year for electricity at my house. Seems like
after every rain shower, someting elecronic stopped working. In
addition, about once a month, power flicks off just long enought to
set every piece of gear with a clock a-blinking. After hurricane
Isabel knocked out my power for 15 hours, I've decided to finally look
for a whole-house backup system.

To take care of the momentary outages and brownouts, a huge
battery-type UPS that was connected to the whole house would be ideal
(it seems.) There is actually a company (Banner Electric -
www.bannerbackup.com) that makes such a system and actually markets it
as replacements to generators - but I'm not sure exactly how long they
would keep a house running (even with loads minimized) plus there is
reference to a system costing $20,000 on their web site (ouch...)

I'd like to get the thoughts of anyone out there about the wisdom of
connecting the whole house to a big UPS. It seems to me like the ideal
system would have an automatic generator for extended outages but a
battery to handle short outages and to keep power flowing while the
generator started.

This is not a new idea, just new marketing. We have been running computer
rooms and other facilities that can not tolerate any power outages on
systems such as this for 20+ years. It works well, but it is not cheap.
Besides the initial cost, the batteries have to be replaced every few years,
the inefficiencies inherent in the system will raise your electric bill, and
the system itself can fail and require repairs. The amount of time you get
on a system depends on the power required and the number and size of the
batteries. There are all sorts of variations, but some of the facilities I
am familiar with have 20-30 minutes of battery power, which is sufficient to
start the backup generator or to shut down the equipment gracefully. It
does not seem to make sense for the average homeowner.

"Rob Patrick" wrote in message
...
I've had a pretty rough year for electricity at my house. Seems like
after every rain shower, someting elecronic stopped working. In
addition, about once a month, power flicks off just long enought to
set every piece of gear with a clock a-blinking. After hurricane
Isabel knocked out my power for 15 hours, I've decided to finally look
for a whole-house backup system.

To take care of the momentary outages and brownouts, a huge
battery-type UPS that was connected to the whole house would be ideal
(it seems.) There is actually a company (Banner Electric -
www.bannerbackup.com) that makes such a system and actually markets it
as replacements to generators - but I'm not sure exactly how long they
would keep a house running (even with loads minimized) plus there is
reference to a system costing $20,000 on their web site (ouch...)

I'd like to get the thoughts of anyone out there about the wisdom of
connecting the whole house to a big UPS. It seems to me like the ideal
system would have an automatic generator for extended outages but a
battery to handle short outages and to keep power flowing while the
generator started.

My suggestion for most homeowners is a partial cutover panel. Only certain
circuits are brought over. DIY it could be as low as $1000 including the
right sized generator. Professional install should not take it over
$1600-$2000. Its fairly easy to retrofit. With that you end up with a
portable gas generator. The local wire jocks have been installing this one
http://www.connecticut-electric.com/switch.asp And
http://www.finitesite.com/transferswitch/ gives you some idea of prices of
it and others. Home Depot/Lowes also carries them. The meters are a very
useful feature. I installed the 7500 model in my home

Next step up is a whole house cutover. That is done at the mains level. A
bit more expensive and installation really should be done by a pro.
Generator cost is now much higher or you really have to watch consumption.
You be surprised how much devices you forget about can draw (think about the
old freezer in the basement when it starts up). There are some nice units
in this market designed for permanent outdoor installation. Fuel source is
also a consideration. People who I know who have these tend to have an
autostart in case of a power failure with critical hardware on dedicated UPS
boxes. Costs are really elastic based on type of generator used. This
would tend to make more sense in an more remote areas where power outages
are more common and more prolonged, or is there are some sort of critical
systems in the home (oxygen generators come to mind).

When I finally retire, I may go with the latter kind of system. Either that
or an electric start generator. I've pulled way too many starter cords
today.

"Rob Patrick" wrote in message
...
I've had a pretty rough year for electricity at my house. Seems like
after every rain shower, someting elecronic stopped working. In
addition, about once a month, power flicks off just long enought to
set every piece of gear with a clock a-blinking. After hurricane
Isabel knocked out my power for 15 hours, I've decided to finally look
for a whole-house backup system.

To take care of the momentary outages and brownouts, a huge
battery-type UPS that was connected to the whole house would be ideal
(it seems.) There is actually a company (Banner Electric -
www.bannerbackup.com) that makes such a system and actually markets it
as replacements to generators - but I'm not sure exactly how long they
would keep a house running (even with loads minimized) plus there is
reference to a system costing $20,000 on their web site (ouch...)

I'd like to get the thoughts of anyone out there about the wisdom of
connecting the whole house to a big UPS. It seems to me like the ideal
system would have an automatic generator for extended outages but a
battery to handle short outages and to keep power flowing while the
generator started.

My suggestion for most homeowners is a partial cutover panel. Only certain
circuits are brought over. DIY it could be as low as $1000 including the
right sized generator. Professional install should not take it over
$1600-$2000. Its fairly easy to retrofit. With that you end up with a
portable gas generator. The local wire jocks have been installing this one
http://www.connecticut-electric.com/switch.asp And
http://www.finitesite.com/transferswitch/ gives you some idea of prices of
it and others. Home Depot/Lowes also carries them. The meters are a very
useful feature. I installed the 7500 model in my home

Next step up is a whole house cutover. That is done at the mains level. A
bit more expensive and installation really should be done by a pro.
Generator cost is now much higher or you really have to watch consumption.
You be surprised how much devices you forget about can draw (think about the
old freezer in the basement when it starts up). There are some nice units
in this market designed for permanent outdoor installation. Fuel source is
also a consideration. People who I know who have these tend to have an
autostart in case of a power failure with critical hardware on dedicated UPS
boxes. Costs are really elastic based on type of generator used. This
would tend to make more sense in an more remote areas where power outages
are more common and more prolonged, or is there are some sort of critical
systems in the home (oxygen generators come to mind).

When I finally retire, I may go with the latter kind of system. Either that
or an electric start generator. I've pulled way too many starter cords
today.

"Rob Patrick" wrote in message
...
I've had a pretty rough year for electricity at my house. Seems like
after every rain shower, someting elecronic stopped working. In
addition, about once a month, power flicks off just long enought to
set every piece of gear with a clock a-blinking. After hurricane
Isabel knocked out my power for 15 hours, I've decided to finally look
for a whole-house backup system.

To take care of the momentary outages and brownouts, a huge
battery-type UPS that was connected to the whole house would be ideal
(it seems.) There is actually a company (Banner Electric -
www.bannerbackup.com) that makes such a system and actually markets it
as replacements to generators - but I'm not sure exactly how long they
would keep a house running (even with loads minimized) plus there is
reference to a system costing $20,000 on their web site (ouch...)

I'd like to get the thoughts of anyone out there about the wisdom of
connecting the whole house to a big UPS. It seems to me like the ideal
system would have an automatic generator for extended outages but a
battery to handle short outages and to keep power flowing while the
generator started.

telephone central offices have 2 separate banks of batteries and a (diesel
generator).
they are setup to stay functional for at least 8 hours during a complete
power loss.

for home use, you may google (hydrogen) fuel cells.

"Rob Patrick" wrote in message
...
I've had a pretty rough year for electricity at my house. Seems like
after every rain shower, someting elecronic stopped working. In
addition, about once a month, power flicks off just long enought to
set every piece of gear with a clock a-blinking. After hurricane
Isabel knocked out my power for 15 hours, I've decided to finally look
for a whole-house backup system.

To take care of the momentary outages and brownouts, a huge
battery-type UPS that was connected to the whole house would be ideal
(it seems.) There is actually a company (Banner Electric -
www.bannerbackup.com) that makes such a system and actually markets it
as replacements to generators - but I'm not sure exactly how long they
would keep a house running (even with loads minimized) plus there is
reference to a system costing $20,000 on their web site (ouch...)

I'd like to get the thoughts of anyone out there about the wisdom of
connecting the whole house to a big UPS. It seems to me like the ideal
system would have an automatic generator for extended outages but a
battery to handle short outages and to keep power flowing while the
generator started.

telephone central offices have 2 separate banks of batteries and a (diesel
generator).
they are setup to stay functional for at least 8 hours during a complete
power loss.

for home use, you may google (hydrogen) fuel cells.

Rob Patrick wrote:
....
Isabel knocked out my power for 15 hours, I've decided to finally look
for a whole-house backup system.

Whole house would likely be prohibitive. On my smaller clocks, they
often take a 9V battery. Or I just suck it up and reprogram the time
(the new clocks set themselves - handy for a guest room where I'll
sometimes move the clock around and put it back when guests come.

....


I'd like to get the thoughts of anyone out there about the wisdom of
connecting the whole house to a big UPS. It seems to me like the ideal
system would have an automatic generator for extended outages but a
battery to handle short outages and to keep power flowing while the
generator started.


I've also done very very large power systems. For data centers. We
lose power and it will take easy 24 hrs to get machines up and recovered
right. UPSs cover us for maybe an hour, then the generator gets kicked
on. A second mortgage, and you'll be set It's uncheap.

Go for a reasonable in between. mom (in ma) loses power for 2-3 days at
a time. Between the gas stove for cooking, wood stove for heat (not a
special purchase, just more useful in when the icestorms take down 4
miles of power and the main furance fails), she charges flashlights and
a flourescent lantern at work.

She and a friend of mine both got smallish generators. They power the
circuit with the fridge, kitchen lights, the well pump (showers) and
have enough to run an extension cord from the kitchen ciruit to the
TV and DVD (cable usually dies with the power. stupid trees). That
means she's not lost power since she got this

A friend has many solar panels. They charge a pair of excessively large
batteries. Said batteries can power the important parts of the house for
a couple days of no power and no sun. His meter usually runs backwards
in the day and forwards at night. Net metering means his annual power
bill costs a bit less than a nice dinner.


Bottom line: You likely don't need the whole house "on". If you live
with essencials and perhaps want to ponder generating your own power for
extras (think how much a windmill would have done yesterday!), you can
do the generator thing. It's not even that rare in homes to have a
cutover for a critical couple ciruits. A small generator can be
affordable (tho loud and smelly). They were pretty cheap after y2k
didn't pan out as a crisis.

Rob Patrick wrote:
....
Isabel knocked out my power for 15 hours, I've decided to finally look
for a whole-house backup system.

Whole house would likely be prohibitive. On my smaller clocks, they
often take a 9V battery. Or I just suck it up and reprogram the time
(the new clocks set themselves - handy for a guest room where I'll
sometimes move the clock around and put it back when guests come.

....


I'd like to get the thoughts of anyone out there about the wisdom of
connecting the whole house to a big UPS. It seems to me like the ideal
system would have an automatic generator for extended outages but a
battery to handle short outages and to keep power flowing while the
generator started.


I've also done very very large power systems. For data centers. We
lose power and it will take easy 24 hrs to get machines up and recovered
right. UPSs cover us for maybe an hour, then the generator gets kicked
on. A second mortgage, and you'll be set It's uncheap.

Go for a reasonable in between. mom (in ma) loses power for 2-3 days at
a time. Between the gas stove for cooking, wood stove for heat (not a
special purchase, just more useful in when the icestorms take down 4
miles of power and the main furance fails), she charges flashlights and
a flourescent lantern at work.

She and a friend of mine both got smallish generators. They power the
circuit with the fridge, kitchen lights, the well pump (showers) and
have enough to run an extension cord from the kitchen ciruit to the
TV and DVD (cable usually dies with the power. stupid trees). That
means she's not lost power since she got this

A friend has many solar panels. They charge a pair of excessively large
batteries. Said batteries can power the important parts of the house for
a couple days of no power and no sun. His meter usually runs backwards
in the day and forwards at night. Net metering means his annual power
bill costs a bit less than a nice dinner.


Bottom line: You likely don't need the whole house "on". If you live
with essencials and perhaps want to ponder generating your own power for
extras (think how much a windmill would have done yesterday!), you can
do the generator thing. It's not even that rare in homes to have a
cutover for a critical couple ciruits. A small generator can be
affordable (tho loud and smelly). They were pretty cheap after y2k
didn't pan out as a crisis.

You must live in the DC area....

I think after the dust settles, I am going to look into a generator in the 3500
to 5000 watt range. Porter Cable makes one with a Honda engine and brushless
generator for under a grand.

At least that will allow me to alternatively run the fridge, or laptop, or TV,
to keep from going crazy.

Might be useful for blackouts or terrorism-related stuff, too.

You must live in the DC area....

I think after the dust settles, I am going to look into a generator in the 3500
to 5000 watt range. Porter Cable makes one with a Honda engine and brushless
generator for under a grand.

At least that will allow me to alternatively run the fridge, or laptop, or TV,
to keep from going crazy.

Might be useful for blackouts or terrorism-related stuff, too.

Yikes!! whole house on batt backup?? way too expensive. The install,
batteries, replacing them every 4 years
would kill your wallet!
and even with that.. how long would the batts last??

If you have natual gas there are nat gas powered generators whcih will
eliminate fuel storage tanks too.
that can run for days if necessary

Yikes!! whole house on batt backup?? way too expensive. The install,
batteries, replacing them every 4 years
would kill your wallet!
and even with that.. how long would the batts last??

If you have natual gas there are nat gas powered generators whcih will
eliminate fuel storage tanks too.
that can run for days if necessary

Natural gas gens work great as long as there is natural gas. What would it
take for the source of natural gas in your area to loose pressure in the
pipe? I agree, battery backup for the house will be in the 10's of $1,000.

Yikes!! whole house on batt backup?? way too expensive. The install,
batteries, replacing them every 4 years
would kill your wallet!
and even with that.. how long would the batts last??

If you have natual gas there are nat gas powered generators whcih will
eliminate fuel storage tanks too.
that can run for days if necessary

Natural gas gens work great as long as there is natural gas. What would it
take for the source of natural gas in your area to loose pressure in the
pipe? I agree, battery backup for the house will be in the 10's of $1,000.

Yikes!! whole house on batt backup?? way too expensive. The install,
batteries, replacing them every 4 years
would kill your wallet!
and even with that.. how long would the batts last??

If you have natual gas there are nat gas powered generators whcih will
eliminate fuel storage tanks too.
that can run for days if necessary

On 19 Sep 2003 17:36:21 -0700, (Rob Patrick) wrote in
message :

I've had a pretty rough year for electricity at my house. Seems like
after every rain shower, someting elecronic stopped working. In
addition, about once a month, power flicks off just long enought to
set every piece of gear with a clock a-blinking. After hurricane
Isabel knocked out my power for 15 hours, I've decided to finally look
for a whole-house backup system.

To take care of the momentary outages and brownouts, a huge
battery-type UPS that was connected to the whole house would be ideal
(it seems.) There is actually a company (Banner Electric -
www.bannerbackup.com) that makes such a system and actually markets it
as replacements to generators - but I'm not sure exactly how long they
would keep a house running (even with loads minimized) plus there is
reference to a system costing $20,000 on their web site (ouch...)

I'd like to get the thoughts of anyone out there about the wisdom of
connecting the whole house to a big UPS. It seems to me like the ideal
system would have an automatic generator for extended outages but a
battery to handle short outages and to keep power flowing while the
generator started.

Rather than connecting the entire house to yet another monolithic system
that may create yet another single point of vulnerability, consider a
carefully designed, _distributed_ backup system.

Consider each power need separately and creatively. For example, it is much
less expensive to replace an electric range/stove with a natural gas or LP
range/stove than to provide battery backed UPS for an electric range/stove
as you seem to be entertaining.

One part of that system could consist in a DC power network for devices
that intrinsically run on DC and have AC-DC converters built such as
computers.

I have set for myself the goal of an independent 48vdc whole-house wiring
system, using an off-the-grid supply with battery and 120VAC "backup", to
power the ever-growing number of PC's, SBC, subsystems, and other HA
accoutrements.

The motivation stems partly by the need to improve the grounding system for
these devices so that they don't fail during lightning events, and partly
out of embarrassment of how little truly _necessary_ function these devices
provide for the amount of electrical energy and other resources they
consume ...

There are many sources of 12vdc- 24vdc- and 48vdc-input ATX-style supplies
for computers.

http://www.icpamerica.com/power.php
http://www.aristaipc.com/others.htm
http://en.ieiworld.com/products/inde...WER% 20SUPPLY
http://www.amtrade.com/pc_power/swit...ies_lg_pix.htm
http://www.kontron.com/techlib/whitepapers/5007.pdf
http://www.boser.com.tw/products/power/bpw830v.htm
http://www.magtechind.com/__DC___DC_...converter.html

to name a few

HTH .. Marc

www.ECOntrol.org

On 19 Sep 2003 17:36:21 -0700, (Rob Patrick) wrote in
message :

I've had a pretty rough year for electricity at my house. Seems like
after every rain shower, someting elecronic stopped working. In
addition, about once a month, power flicks off just long enought to
set every piece of gear with a clock a-blinking. After hurricane
Isabel knocked out my power for 15 hours, I've decided to finally look
for a whole-house backup system.

To take care of the momentary outages and brownouts, a huge
battery-type UPS that was connected to the whole house would be ideal
(it seems.) There is actually a company (Banner Electric -
www.bannerbackup.com) that makes such a system and actually markets it
as replacements to generators - but I'm not sure exactly how long they
would keep a house running (even with loads minimized) plus there is
reference to a system costing $20,000 on their web site (ouch...)

I'd like to get the thoughts of anyone out there about the wisdom of
connecting the whole house to a big UPS. It seems to me like the ideal
system would have an automatic generator for extended outages but a
battery to handle short outages and to keep power flowing while the
generator started.

Rather than connecting the entire house to yet another monolithic system
that may create yet another single point of vulnerability, consider a
carefully designed, _distributed_ backup system.

Consider each power need separately and creatively. For example, it is much
less expensive to replace an electric range/stove with a natural gas or LP
range/stove than to provide battery backed UPS for an electric range/stove
as you seem to be entertaining.

One part of that system could consist in a DC power network for devices
that intrinsically run on DC and have AC-DC converters built such as
computers.

I have set for myself the goal of an independent 48vdc whole-house wiring
system, using an off-the-grid supply with battery and 120VAC "backup", to
power the ever-growing number of PC's, SBC, subsystems, and other HA
accoutrements.

The motivation stems partly by the need to improve the grounding system for
these devices so that they don't fail during lightning events, and partly
out of embarrassment of how little truly _necessary_ function these devices
provide for the amount of electrical energy and other resources they
consume ...

There are many sources of 12vdc- 24vdc- and 48vdc-input ATX-style supplies
for computers.

http://www.icpamerica.com/power.php
http://www.aristaipc.com/others.htm
http://en.ieiworld.com/products/inde...WER% 20SUPPLY
http://www.amtrade.com/pc_power/swit...ies_lg_pix.htm
http://www.kontron.com/techlib/whitepapers/5007.pdf
http://www.boser.com.tw/products/power/bpw830v.htm
http://www.magtechind.com/__DC___DC_...converter.html

to name a few

HTH .. Marc

www.ECOntrol.org

It occurs to me that some thing in the middle would work. A couple of UPS
for the clocks and computer, and then a generator you can hook up if the
power cut lasts longer.

You've had some great advice from the other writers.

--

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.org
..
..

"Rob Patrick" wrote in message
...
I've had a pretty rough year for electricity at my house. Seems like
after every rain shower, someting elecronic stopped working. In
addition, about once a month, power flicks off just long enought to
set every piece of gear with a clock a-blinking. After hurricane
Isabel knocked out my power for 15 hours, I've decided to finally look
for a whole-house backup system.

To take care of the momentary outages and brownouts, a huge
battery-type UPS that was connected to the whole house would be ideal
(it seems.) There is actually a company (Banner Electric -
www.bannerbackup.com) that makes such a system and actually markets it
as replacements to generators - but I'm not sure exactly how long they
would keep a house running (even with loads minimized) plus there is
reference to a system costing $20,000 on their web site (ouch...)

I'd like to get the thoughts of anyone out there about the wisdom of
connecting the whole house to a big UPS. It seems to me like the ideal
system would have an automatic generator for extended outages but a
battery to handle short outages and to keep power flowing while the
generator started.

It occurs to me that some thing in the middle would work. A couple of UPS
for the clocks and computer, and then a generator you can hook up if the
power cut lasts longer.

You've had some great advice from the other writers.

--

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.org
..
..

"Rob Patrick" wrote in message
...
I've had a pretty rough year for electricity at my house. Seems like
after every rain shower, someting elecronic stopped working. In
addition, about once a month, power flicks off just long enought to
set every piece of gear with a clock a-blinking. After hurricane
Isabel knocked out my power for 15 hours, I've decided to finally look
for a whole-house backup system.

To take care of the momentary outages and brownouts, a huge
battery-type UPS that was connected to the whole house would be ideal
(it seems.) There is actually a company (Banner Electric -
www.bannerbackup.com) that makes such a system and actually markets it
as replacements to generators - but I'm not sure exactly how long they
would keep a house running (even with loads minimized) plus there is
reference to a system costing $20,000 on their web site (ouch...)

I'd like to get the thoughts of anyone out there about the wisdom of
connecting the whole house to a big UPS. It seems to me like the ideal
system would have an automatic generator for extended outages but a
battery to handle short outages and to keep power flowing while the
generator started.

I am building a house as we speak. This is what I am doing:

- Additional panel that switches over and powers a portion of the house
- Yet to be decided: "auto switchover and generator that autostarts", or
"manual switchover and generator htat needs to be kicked".
- Propane powered generator (500 gallon tank of propane feeds our heating -
this is rural so no natural gas, plus I like the independence)
- A big UPS for the X10 controller, fridge, and a light in each room
- Ham radio (VA3MVW) for comms

Michael

I am building a house as we speak. This is what I am doing:

- Additional panel that switches over and powers a portion of the house
- Yet to be decided: "auto switchover and generator that autostarts", or
"manual switchover and generator htat needs to be kicked".
- Propane powered generator (500 gallon tank of propane feeds our heating -
this is rural so no natural gas, plus I like the independence)
- A big UPS for the X10 controller, fridge, and a light in each room
- Ham radio (VA3MVW) for comms

Michael

On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 19:29:00 -0400, "Michael Willems"
wrote in message
:

I am building a house as we speak. This is what I am doing:

- Additional panel that switches over and powers a portion of the house
- Yet to be decided: "auto switchover and generator that autostarts", or
"manual switchover and generator htat needs to be kicked".
- Propane powered generator (500 gallon tank of propane feeds our heating
-
this is rural so no natural gas, plus I like the independence)
- A big UPS for the X10 controller, fridge, and a light in each room
- Ham radio (VA3MVW) for comms

Michael

Last I knew, propane-powered generators still used carburetors. (This may
have changed in the last decade). Propane-powered generators may need more
than 1.5 times the rated steady-state KW of a generator powered by a
diesel or other fuel-injected engine to have the same resistance to voltage
sags from the start-up of heavy loads like refrigerators, AC, heaters and
so on. These sags can cause your electronic gear to reset.

My experience was that this problem was not solved for continuous use by
conventional, small UPS's because the sensitivity of UPS's was such that
they tripped excessively and wore down their batteries more quickly than
they could be recharged.

The solution in my case was to use a diesel generator with a large flywheel
and UPS's with built-in magnetic conditioning (Ferrupps) and adjustable
sensitivity to voltage and (especially) frequency variations.

A different solution, which I would implement now, would be the one I
suggested in another post to this thread, viz: fit PC's and HA and other
electronic equipment with DC-DC power supplies.

HTH ... Marc

www.ECOntrol.com

On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 19:29:00 -0400, "Michael Willems"
wrote in message
:

I am building a house as we speak. This is what I am doing:

- Additional panel that switches over and powers a portion of the house
- Yet to be decided: "auto switchover and generator that autostarts", or
"manual switchover and generator htat needs to be kicked".
- Propane powered generator (500 gallon tank of propane feeds our heating
-
this is rural so no natural gas, plus I like the independence)
- A big UPS for the X10 controller, fridge, and a light in each room
- Ham radio (VA3MVW) for comms

Michael

Last I knew, propane-powered generators still used carburetors. (This may
have changed in the last decade). Propane-powered generators may need more
than 1.5 times the rated steady-state KW of a generator powered by a
diesel or other fuel-injected engine to have the same resistance to voltage
sags from the start-up of heavy loads like refrigerators, AC, heaters and
so on. These sags can cause your electronic gear to reset.

My experience was that this problem was not solved for continuous use by
conventional, small UPS's because the sensitivity of UPS's was such that
they tripped excessively and wore down their batteries more quickly than
they could be recharged.

The solution in my case was to use a diesel generator with a large flywheel
and UPS's with built-in magnetic conditioning (Ferrupps) and adjustable
sensitivity to voltage and (especially) frequency variations.

A different solution, which I would implement now, would be the one I
suggested in another post to this thread, viz: fit PC's and HA and other
electronic equipment with DC-DC power supplies.

HTH ... Marc

www.ECOntrol.com

In article , ruminated:
On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 19:29:00 -0400, "Michael Willems"
wrote in message
Last I knew, propane-powered generators still used carburetors. (This may

What makes gasoline-powered generators such a PITA is the fact that
they have a float bowl from whence gasoline is drawn up by vacuum
pressure, rather than having a simple jet where already-pressurized
propane can be fed into the carburetor. The float bowl and associated
jet immersed in said float bowl is the primary culprit in reliability
problems caused by old fuel oxidizing into varnish. Propane does away
with that problem. In addition, propane burns more cleanly than
gasoline, making the oil last longer.

have changed in the last decade). Propane-powered generators may need more
than 1.5 times the rated steady-state KW of a generator powered by a
diesel or other fuel-injected engine to have the same resistance to voltage
sags from the start-up of heavy loads like refrigerators, AC, heaters and
so on. These sags can cause your electronic gear to reset.

Propane-powered generators are also a helluva lot cheaper than diesel,
though. If you don't expect to run electronic gear during an outage,
that may be a major factor in choosing propane over diesel.

--
Eric Lee Green


-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

In article , ruminated:
On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 19:29:00 -0400, "Michael Willems"
wrote in message
Last I knew, propane-powered generators still used carburetors. (This may

What makes gasoline-powered generators such a PITA is the fact that
they have a float bowl from whence gasoline is drawn up by vacuum
pressure, rather than having a simple jet where already-pressurized
propane can be fed into the carburetor. The float bowl and associated
jet immersed in said float bowl is the primary culprit in reliability
problems caused by old fuel oxidizing into varnish. Propane does away
with that problem. In addition, propane burns more cleanly than
gasoline, making the oil last longer.

have changed in the last decade). Propane-powered generators may need more
than 1.5 times the rated steady-state KW of a generator powered by a
diesel or other fuel-injected engine to have the same resistance to voltage
sags from the start-up of heavy loads like refrigerators, AC, heaters and
so on. These sags can cause your electronic gear to reset.

Propane-powered generators are also a helluva lot cheaper than diesel,
though. If you don't expect to run electronic gear during an outage,
that may be a major factor in choosing propane over diesel.

--
Eric Lee Green


-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

I've had a pretty rough year for electricity at my house.
Seems like after every rain shower, someting elecronic
stopped working. In addition, about once a month,
power flicks off just long enought to set every piece of
gear with a clock a-blinking. After hurricane Isabel
knocked out my power for 15 hours, I've decided to
finally look for a whole-house backup system.

Hi Rob,

Perhaps my experience will prove somewhat instructive in this. In my
previous home /office in Connecticut I installed a Winco 8kW auto-start
generator. Ours ran on natural gas from the street so we didn't need a gas
storage tank -- a major plus. The Winco had an automatic transfer switch
and a timed auto-start function. Any time power went out for more than 15
seconds the engine would start. As soon as it reached 220VAC the transfer
switch would throw.

A timer kicked the generator on every Friday morning for fifteen minutes to
keep the bearings and cylinders lubricated. This is critically important.
Without it the engine and carburetor might clog from deposits that tend to
precipitate out of unspent fuel and oil, not to mention rust.

To keep things ticking or rather, to keep things from flashing 12:00 until
the genset kicked in I installed a 3kW UPS. Critical things like PCs and
network goodies plus the telephone system, alarm receivers and such were
connected to the UPS. This worked fine for us for about 18 years until I
moved. IIRC the Winco cost about $3-4K retail when I bought it. I forget
what I spent on the UPS.

There were a few minor problems and one major one. The start timer was a
plug-in affair mounted within the shroud covering the various controls. It
would overheat and fail every couple of years. There were very few
companies that could service Winco gensets in our area. One tried to charge
me $190 for an unauthorized service visit even though I specifically said to
just ship me the timer. They also wanted over $100 for the timer. I looked
up the maker in the manufacturer's "blue book" and ordered a replacement
timer for less than $20. To solve the problem I installed a gem box with a
multi-conductor socket for the timer outside the generator room (more on
that in a moment) and ran a cable through the wall to a home-brew plug.

The Winco was **loud** when it ran. The noise was unacceptable in a
residential neighborhood. I had to build a sound proof room within my
garage for the genset. I also hired a bricklayer to build a 22-foot tall
chimney to enclose the muffler. To provide cooling air for the engine room
I ran two ducts to the outside. To keep carbon monoxide out of the house I
maintained a negative pressure within the generator room. This was far
easier than trying to make an air-tight seal around the room. An exhaust
fan kicked in as soon as the generator started, drawing hot air out through
a louver. Replacement air entered through a balanced damper.

Other than the added expense of building the room and chimney the system was
pretty much flawless for many years. When we lost power throughout the area
due to ice storms, various T-storms and at least one hurricane I had
continuous power for as much as a week while everyone around was without.
We also ran cables to power our two immediate neighbors' refrigerators and
TV sets (about all you *really* need).

There are quieter, more efficient models available today so perhaps you
won't need to go to such extremes. Winco is fine but there are lots of
other good names around. Best of luck.

Regards,
Robert

=============================
Bass Home Electronics, Inc
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
941-925-9747 Fax
941-232-0791 Wireless
Nextel Private ID - 161*21755*1
http://www.bass-home.com
=============================

I've had a pretty rough year for electricity at my house.
Seems like after every rain shower, someting elecronic
stopped working. In addition, about once a month,
power flicks off just long enought to set every piece of
gear with a clock a-blinking. After hurricane Isabel
knocked out my power for 15 hours, I've decided to
finally look for a whole-house backup system.

Hi Rob,

Perhaps my experience will prove somewhat instructive in this. In my
previous home /office in Connecticut I installed a Winco 8kW auto-start
generator. Ours ran on natural gas from the street so we didn't need a gas
storage tank -- a major plus. The Winco had an automatic transfer switch
and a timed auto-start function. Any time power went out for more than 15
seconds the engine would start. As soon as it reached 220VAC the transfer
switch would throw.

A timer kicked the generator on every Friday morning for fifteen minutes to
keep the bearings and cylinders lubricated. This is critically important.
Without it the engine and carburetor might clog from deposits that tend to
precipitate out of unspent fuel and oil, not to mention rust.

To keep things ticking or rather, to keep things from flashing 12:00 until
the genset kicked in I installed a 3kW UPS. Critical things like PCs and
network goodies plus the telephone system, alarm receivers and such were
connected to the UPS. This worked fine for us for about 18 years until I
moved. IIRC the Winco cost about $3-4K retail when I bought it. I forget
what I spent on the UPS.

There were a few minor problems and one major one. The start timer was a
plug-in affair mounted within the shroud covering the various controls. It
would overheat and fail every couple of years. There were very few
companies that could service Winco gensets in our area. One tried to charge
me $190 for an unauthorized service visit even though I specifically said to
just ship me the timer. They also wanted over $100 for the timer. I looked
up the maker in the manufacturer's "blue book" and ordered a replacement
timer for less than $20. To solve the problem I installed a gem box with a
multi-conductor socket for the timer outside the generator room (more on
that in a moment) and ran a cable through the wall to a home-brew plug.

The Winco was **loud** when it ran. The noise was unacceptable in a
residential neighborhood. I had to build a sound proof room within my
garage for the genset. I also hired a bricklayer to build a 22-foot tall
chimney to enclose the muffler. To provide cooling air for the engine room
I ran two ducts to the outside. To keep carbon monoxide out of the house I
maintained a negative pressure within the generator room. This was far
easier than trying to make an air-tight seal around the room. An exhaust
fan kicked in as soon as the generator started, drawing hot air out through
a louver. Replacement air entered through a balanced damper.

Other than the added expense of building the room and chimney the system was
pretty much flawless for many years. When we lost power throughout the area
due to ice storms, various T-storms and at least one hurricane I had
continuous power for as much as a week while everyone around was without.
We also ran cables to power our two immediate neighbors' refrigerators and
TV sets (about all you *really* need).

There are quieter, more efficient models available today so perhaps you
won't need to go to such extremes. Winco is fine but there are lots of
other good names around. Best of luck.

Regards,
Robert

=============================
Bass Home Electronics, Inc
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
941-925-9747 Fax
941-232-0791 Wireless
Nextel Private ID - 161*21755*1
http://www.bass-home.com
=============================

Michael Willems wrote:
I am building a house as we speak. This is what I am doing:

- Additional panel that switches over and powers a portion of the
house - Yet to be decided: "auto switchover and generator that
autostarts", or "manual switchover and generator htat needs to be
kicked". - Propane powered generator (500 gallon tank of propane
feeds our heating - this is rural so no natural gas, plus I like the
independence) - A big UPS for the X10 controller, fridge, and a light
in each room - Ham radio (VA3MVW) for comms

The best way to save money on power is not to add solar panels or
wind or hydro - it's to reduce usage first.

This is relevant here because I'll presume, before you power a house,
that the fridge is a highly efficient fridge. Not perhaps propane
(virtually mandatory for off-grid setups), but very highly rated
per energy star and installed well (heat can escape, etc).

I'm told that empty is less efficient than full. We used to keep milk
gallons of water in a spare fridge at some point. Keeps all the cold
when from leaving open the door? I dunno.


That light you'll be powering in every room? I presume it's
fluorescent. Perhaps 48VDC for direct powering from batteries?

The TV, for best power use, should be an LCD.

Computers? Absolutely laptops! Macs are lower power than PCs (Intel
chips suck power, where PPCs are relatively efficient.

In work places, an LCD monitor will pay for itself over a CRT monitor
in under a year in power and cooling requirements (not to mention
disposal - anyone need some 14" monitors?).

For clocks and not resetting them:
self setting clocks are no longer a novelty (and my VCR finally started
taht). And most clocks radios of the last 15 years take a battery.
$2 for a battery is a lot cheaper than wiring a genny in to power
every circuit in the house. And it's a lot cheaper than getting
a genny that large.

If you are BUILDING the house, you get to run low voltage DC power
for some of the lights. I live in earthquake land, so there are a
couple (fluoresent) flashlights that plug into the walls (with wall
warts) that go on automatically if power goes. They tend to last
many many hours. For long outages, they take a 12VDC input to
recharge and stay on.

Using DC: bulbs supposedly last longer, 48VDC doesn't require the
fat wires that 12VDC wants, batteries and solar can easily provide
48VDC. AC can be derived from the batteries with an inverter.

You can do the whole house thing, but the money best spent is spent
lowering consumption FIRST. In emergencies, you can just leave things
off, not hit the fridge often, etc.


Additional note:
At least in calif, off grid installs are NOT eligable for the rebates.
And the rebate is lowered if you self install. One of the goals is to
jump start the businesses and contractors; I can't really disagree.

Michael Willems wrote:
I am building a house as we speak. This is what I am doing:

- Additional panel that switches over and powers a portion of the
house - Yet to be decided: "auto switchover and generator that
autostarts", or "manual switchover and generator htat needs to be
kicked". - Propane powered generator (500 gallon tank of propane
feeds our heating - this is rural so no natural gas, plus I like the
independence) - A big UPS for the X10 controller, fridge, and a light
in each room - Ham radio (VA3MVW) for comms

The best way to save money on power is not to add solar panels or
wind or hydro - it's to reduce usage first.

This is relevant here because I'll presume, before you power a house,
that the fridge is a highly efficient fridge. Not perhaps propane
(virtually mandatory for off-grid setups), but very highly rated
per energy star and installed well (heat can escape, etc).

I'm told that empty is less efficient than full. We used to keep milk
gallons of water in a spare fridge at some point. Keeps all the cold
when from leaving open the door? I dunno.


That light you'll be powering in every room? I presume it's
fluorescent. Perhaps 48VDC for direct powering from batteries?

The TV, for best power use, should be an LCD.

Computers? Absolutely laptops! Macs are lower power than PCs (Intel
chips suck power, where PPCs are relatively efficient.

In work places, an LCD monitor will pay for itself over a CRT monitor
in under a year in power and cooling requirements (not to mention
disposal - anyone need some 14" monitors?).

For clocks and not resetting them:
self setting clocks are no longer a novelty (and my VCR finally started
taht). And most clocks radios of the last 15 years take a battery.
$2 for a battery is a lot cheaper than wiring a genny in to power
every circuit in the house. And it's a lot cheaper than getting
a genny that large.

If you are BUILDING the house, you get to run low voltage DC power
for some of the lights. I live in earthquake land, so there are a
couple (fluoresent) flashlights that plug into the walls (with wall
warts) that go on automatically if power goes. They tend to last
many many hours. For long outages, they take a 12VDC input to
recharge and stay on.

Using DC: bulbs supposedly last longer, 48VDC doesn't require the
fat wires that 12VDC wants, batteries and solar can easily provide
48VDC. AC can be derived from the batteries with an inverter.

You can do the whole house thing, but the money best spent is spent
lowering consumption FIRST. In emergencies, you can just leave things
off, not hit the fridge often, etc.


Additional note:
At least in calif, off grid installs are NOT eligable for the rebates.
And the rebate is lowered if you self install. One of the goals is to
jump start the businesses and contractors; I can't really disagree.