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JTM
 
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Default New home warranty


"Art Begun" wrote in message
...
I thought I would post, for the benefit of people buying a new home,
some information on those 3rd party warranties builders often supply.
Usually the builder raves about them but you never get a copy until
closing day and they ask you to sign the front page at closing.

Don't do it. You are signing away most of your normal consumer rights
and the terms of the warranty are so bad it is highly unlikely that
you would ever collect a cent under it. For the most part it frees
the builder of liability for meeting code which would otherwise be
required by law. So if a code violation is found after closing you
would not be able to do anything about it.

Big name builders and small builders use these things. Refuse to
sign. Tell them at closing that you don't sign anything with out
reading it and you will take it home and sign it after studying it.
After a careful reading you can decide what is right for you.


These warranties are a way for builders to unbundle their warranty costs which
are of course rolled into the price of the home. This inflates the warranty
cost substantially and removes the incentive for the builder to do it right the
first time. The buyer winds up paying 20 or 30 years for the warranty which has
long since expired.

As far as collecting any money under the warranty--not a chance. At best you
get a "fixer" of their choice to try and remediate the problem.

Unfortunately you don't have much choice when the builder includes the warranty
of his choice in the deal. By not signing you get nothing but the right to
sue--not a good way to homeowner satisfaction.

The time to think about warranties is up front, not at closing. If you want to
buy from a big name builder then you are stuck with his deal. Small contractors
are more likely to be open to negotiation. But you will probably pay more
anyway since the smaller builders don't have the economies of scale.

The other day I accidentally trespassed into a new development area (KB) and
noticed that on virtually every house the exterior was spray painted with
several instructions and corrections for the workers such as:

Add insulation here --

Extend wrap around side

etc etc.

Obviously they are using warm bodies who don't know what they are doing and
can't read drawings. No wonder there are so many defects in a new house.

Regards,

John


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Art Begun
 
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Default New home warranty

One thing to keep in mind is the right to sue does not mean you will
have to sue. If you buy from a big builder and sign on to the
worthless warranty you lose the right to sue. But if you refuse to
sign it at closing until you can take it home and read it (and file it
in the circular file) you will keep your right to sue. Which may be
all you need to get the guy to fix stuff.


"JTM" wrote in message
...

"Art Begun" wrote in message
...
I thought I would post, for the benefit of people buying a new

home,
some information on those 3rd party warranties builders often

supply.
Usually the builder raves about them but you never get a copy

until
closing day and they ask you to sign the front page at closing.

Don't do it. You are signing away most of your normal consumer

rights
and the terms of the warranty are so bad it is highly unlikely

that
you would ever collect a cent under it. For the most part it

frees
the builder of liability for meeting code which would otherwise be
required by law. So if a code violation is found after closing

you
would not be able to do anything about it.

Big name builders and small builders use these things. Refuse to
sign. Tell them at closing that you don't sign anything with out
reading it and you will take it home and sign it after studying

it.
After a careful reading you can decide what is right for you.


These warranties are a way for builders to unbundle their warranty

costs which
are of course rolled into the price of the home. This inflates the

warranty
cost substantially and removes the incentive for the builder to do

it right the
first time. The buyer winds up paying 20 or 30 years for the

warranty which has
long since expired.

As far as collecting any money under the warranty--not a chance. At

best you
get a "fixer" of their choice to try and remediate the problem.

Unfortunately you don't have much choice when the builder includes

the warranty
of his choice in the deal. By not signing you get nothing but the

right to
sue--not a good way to homeowner satisfaction.

The time to think about warranties is up front, not at closing. If

you want to
buy from a big name builder then you are stuck with his deal. Small

contractors
are more likely to be open to negotiation. But you will probably

pay more
anyway since the smaller builders don't have the economies of scale.

The other day I accidentally trespassed into a new development area

(KB) and
noticed that on virtually every house the exterior was spray painted

with
several instructions and corrections for the workers such as:

Add insulation here --

Extend wrap around side

etc etc.

Obviously they are using warm bodies who don't know what they are

doing and
can't read drawings. No wonder there are so many defects in a new

house.

Regards,

John




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JTM
 
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Default New home warranty


"Art Begun" wrote in message
...
One thing to keep in mind is the right to sue does not mean you will
have to sue. If you buy from a big builder and sign on to the
worthless warranty you lose the right to sue. But if you refuse to
sign it at closing until you can take it home and read it (and file it
in the circular file) you will keep your right to sue. Which may be
all you need to get the guy to fix stuff.


If you want to go with a big builder who uses third party warranties then
refusing to agree to the remedies in the warranty by not signing it will still
leave you paying for an over priced warranty which will not be in effect. These
companies have full time lawyers skilled in getting complaints dismissed because
the buyer failed to avail himself of remedies that were included in the sale.
They know the courts will look unkindly on any action until you have availed
yourself of the warranty that you paid for, regardless of whether you signed it.

The time to deal with third party warranties is before you get caught up in the
excitement of buying a new house. The only real choice you have is to use an
independent builder who does his own warranties--with all the risks and higher
costs that entails.

Regards,

John


  #4   Report Post  
JTM
 
Posts: n/a
Default New home warranty

That's nothin'. Some friends of mine were having a house built. THe
contractor kept making "mistakes" such as not framing the walls
and windows in the right places per the plans.
So, my friend decide to drop by once in a while after work to keep
an eye on things. One day he finds the last side of the house being
sided - but there's no Tyvek on it. When he confronted the builder
about he, he claimed "the guys doing the siding didn't notice.

(In case you're wondering, they eventually backed out of the deal
around "mistake" #157. It ended up in legal channels.


Your friend had the right idea about dropping by periodically, but a better idea
is to find a retired contractor or master carpenter and pay him just to be on
site daily to avoid these problems in the first place. I have a friend with
contracting experience and he said that he would do this if he was having a
house built for himself. It would be money well spent just for the peace of
mind of knowing that hidden defects weren't concealed.

Regards,

John


  #5   Report Post  
TURTLE
 
Posts: n/a
Default New home warranty


"Art Begun" wrote in message
...
I thought I would post, for the benefit of people buying a new home,
some information on those 3rd party warranties builders often supply.
Usually the builder raves about them but you never get a copy until
closing day and they ask you to sign the front page at closing.

Don't do it. You are signing away most of your normal consumer rights
and the terms of the warranty are so bad it is highly unlikely that
you would ever collect a cent under it. For the most part it frees
the builder of liability for meeting code which would otherwise be
required by law. So if a code violation is found after closing you
would not be able to do anything about it.

Big name builders and small builders use these things. Refuse to
sign. Tell them at closing that you don't sign anything with out
reading it and you will take it home and sign it after studying it.
After a careful reading you can decide what is right for you.


This is Turtle.

Arty , Them home builders are going to not like you for telling on them
about their gimmicks to sell homes with. I know the warrenty is worthless in
most cases but they are not going to send you a Christmas card if you tell
on them. I wanted to warn you here if you was expecting a christmas card
this year.

TURTLE




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JTM
 
Posts: n/a
Default New home warranty




"A contract requires a meeting of the minds. The anti consumer
language will not go in" to effect? "unless you sign it..."

"...or it is otherwise thoroughly integrated into the document."

How could its being integrated into the document (warranty) supercede your

signature.

"Just like all the verbal promises the builder made..... it won't be included."

You mean to imply that all the verbal promises sales types have made to me over

the years are meaningless? I am shocked.


This has nothing to do do with whether you sign the third party warranty or not
at closing. If you don't sign it you get nothing for your money but the
pleasure of taking a legal course of action which is not likely to be
successful.

It is too late at closing to try to change the terms of the warranty--which was
almost certainly touted at the start of the buying process as one of the selling
points.

Don't you remember the sale type saying "This home comes with a no hassle
warranty which covers the material and labor cost of repair for any defects in
construction for some number of years".

Regards

John


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Art Begun
 
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Default New home warranty

It is too late at closing to try to change the terms of the
warranty--which was
almost certainly touted at the start of the buying process as one of

the selling
points.

Don't you remember the sale type saying "This home comes with a no

hassle
warranty which covers the material and labor cost of repair for any

defects in
construction for some number of years".



Exactly.... they said the house comes with a terrific warranty but
they don't show it to you and in fact you cannot get a copy until
closing. So the terms are, if you don't sign, that you get a
terrific warranty assuming the verbal promise comes in.... which it
may or may not.

If you sign the non-terrific warranty at the end you are stuck with
it.

If you refuse to sign then you avoid the anti-consumer terms included
in the written warranty and you get what is provided under law:
Possibly the verbal promise of a great warranty (which would not
include anti consumer language) but at the minimum, in general the
legal standard would be that the house has to be built to code and
generally accepted standards of workmanship. That is far better than
what it says in the 3rd party warranties.

Bottom line don't sign unless you want to forgo your right to sue the
builder and are satisfied with the pathetic promises in the written
3rd party warranties. Your house basically has to fall down to
collect.



"JTM" wrote in message
.. .



"A contract requires a meeting of the minds. The anti consumer
language will not go in" to effect? "unless you sign it..."

"...or it is otherwise thoroughly integrated into the document."

How could its being integrated into the document (warranty)

supercede your
signature.

"Just like all the verbal promises the builder made..... it won't

be included."

You mean to imply that all the verbal promises sales types have

made to me over
the years are meaningless? I am shocked.


This has nothing to do do with whether you sign the third party

warranty or not
at closing. If you don't sign it you get nothing for your money but

the
pleasure of taking a legal course of action which is not likely to

be
successful.

It is too late at closing to try to change the terms of the

warranty--which was
almost certainly touted at the start of the buying process as one of

the selling
points.

Don't you remember the sale type saying "This home comes with a no

hassle
warranty which covers the material and labor cost of repair for any

defects in
construction for some number of years".

Regards

John




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JTM
 
Posts: n/a
Default New home warranty


Exactly.... they said the house comes with a terrific warranty but
they don't show it to you and in fact you cannot get a copy until
closing.


That should have been a clear warning to the buyer--no copy no deal. Time to
take a walk.

So the terms are, if you don't sign, that you get a
terrific warranty assuming the verbal promise comes in.... which it
may or may not.


Verbal promises from a sales type aren't worth a bucket of warm spit.

If you sign the non-terrific warranty at the end you are stuck with
it.


This usually means that they get to choose how, when and by whom it gets
attended to. And for this you agree not to litigate and to choose arbitration
instead.

If you refuse to sign then you avoid the anti-consumer terms included
in the written warranty and you get what is provided under law:


These so called "anti-consumer terms" are carefully crafted legal terms designed
to avoid costly legal action by the new home owner when the new wears off of the
house and reality sets in.

Possibly the verbal promise of a great warranty (which would not
include anti consumer language) but at the minimum, in general the
legal standard would be that the house has to be built to code and
generally accepted standards of workmanship. That is far better than
what it says in the 3rd party warranties.


But to have any hope of enforcing this alleged verbal promise will require some
evidence and that is sadly lacking. If by some good fortune it gets into court,
the sales person will probably have moved on and no one will know what you're
talking about. Case dismissed.

Bottom line don't sign unless you want to forgo your right to sue the
builder and are satisfied with the pathetic promises in the written
3rd party warranties. Your house basically has to fall down to
collect.


Lawyers will love you for this. Just try to get one on a contingency basis for
a case like this.

It sounds like you got a rude awakening. Hint: Any extra cost extended warranty
is a bad deal. The provider knows statistically exactly what the costs will be
and inflates the costs so that it becomes a profit center. It's the great free
interprise system at work. I think the whole economy would collapse if everyone
was immune to sales hype and only made rational purchases.

Regards,

John


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Art Begun
 
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Default New home warranty

What kills me is that in many states the buyer pays for the attorney
and he will not open his mouth and say anything because he wants to
get the closing over with. In other states the builder may supply the
attorney. If you let them you are letting yourself be screwed. Some
other states don't involve attorney's any more. In those cases you
pay less for the closing and you get what you pay for.


If you are paying for the closing attorney, if he is any good he will
tell you not to sign it until you have read it. (And he might tell
you not to bother doing either because it is crap.)

Here is a true story of a 3rd party warranty.

Warranty says homeowner must maintain house to collect.
Sounds reasonable.

Builder builds house very close to creak and promises to put in a
structural retaining wall. Never does. Builder promises to do it and
says don't worry there is a great warranty any way. Homeowner stupidly
agrees to close.

Builder never builds wall and creak is getting closer to foundation.
Homeowner calls warranty company. They come and say that there is no
damage yet so there is nothing to fix. So won't pay to put in wall.
Plus they say that the homeowner is obligated to maintain the house.
Therefore if he doesn't put in a retaining wall and foundation
collapses he STILL will not be able to collect.

That is a true story.

Read your warranty before signing it.





"TURTLE" wrote in message
...

"Art Begun" wrote in message
...
I thought I would post, for the benefit of people buying a new

home,
some information on those 3rd party warranties builders often

supply.
Usually the builder raves about them but you never get a copy

until
closing day and they ask you to sign the front page at closing.

Don't do it. You are signing away most of your normal consumer

rights
and the terms of the warranty are so bad it is highly unlikely

that
you would ever collect a cent under it. For the most part it

frees
the builder of liability for meeting code which would otherwise be
required by law. So if a code violation is found after closing

you
would not be able to do anything about it.

Big name builders and small builders use these things. Refuse to
sign. Tell them at closing that you don't sign anything with out
reading it and you will take it home and sign it after studying

it.
After a careful reading you can decide what is right for you.


This is Turtle.

Arty , Them home builders are going to not like you for telling on

them
about their gimmicks to sell homes with. I know the warrenty is

worthless in
most cases but they are not going to send you a Christmas card if

you tell
on them. I wanted to warn you here if you was expecting a christmas

card
this year.

TURTLE




  #10   Report Post  
Art Begun
 
Posts: n/a
Default New home warranty

It actually varies by state. In NY, everyone including the bank, gets
their own attorney.



"'nuther Bob" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 17:39:36 -0400, "Art Begun"
wrote:

What kills me is that in many states the buyer pays for the

attorney
and he will not open his mouth and say anything because he wants to
get the closing over with. In other states the builder may supply

the
attorney. If you let them you are letting yourself be screwed.

Some
other states don't involve attorney's any more. In those cases you
pay less for the closing and you get what you pay for.


Here's the deal: the bank will use an attorney for the closing.
The bank does not pay for the lawyer, you do as part of the
closing costs. The bank's attorney is there only to make sure
that the bank is legally protected, not you. If the seller has
an attorney there, his job is to look out for the seller, not you
or the bank.

If you want an attorney looking out for you, hire one and have him
present. One trick you can sometimes do is to ask the bank to let
_your_ attorney do the work for them (Both attorneys will

essentially
do the same tasks anyway). Banks will often agree to this, since

they
don't really care who the attorney is as long as he is qualified.
The attorney will bill the bank, the bank will bill you, the usual
thing. The big difference is that *you* hired *your own* attorney
and he looks out for you - the billing just goes through the bank.

Bob





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B a r r y B u r k e J r .
 
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Default New home warranty

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 17:39:36 -0400, "Art Begun"
wrote:

What kills me is that in many states the buyer pays for the attorney
and he will not open his mouth and say anything because he wants to
get the closing over with. In other states the builder may supply the
attorney. If you let them you are letting yourself be screwed. Some
other states don't involve attorney's any more. In those cases you
pay less for the closing and you get what you pay for.


An attorney represents the person who is paying his or her fee,
period.

If I was involved in any deal where my interests were not being
represented, I'd bring my own attorney.

Builders and selling real estate agents love to downplay the need for
a buyer to hire an attorney, just like they downplay the need for a
3rd party inspector / engineer.

A home is usually one of the largest transactions of a person's life.
I can't understand why everyone dosen't spend the $300-500 to have
their, and only their, interests protected.

FWIW, I am not an attorney, and I have nothing to do with any
attorney.

Barry

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JTM
 
Posts: n/a
Default New home warranty


This is Turtle.

If a Builder has a warrrenty written up as a extra cost to warrent his work
you can refuse it anytime you like and have them subtract it from the cost
of the sale. You have to state cost of the warrenty or your commiting fraud
by hiding it from the comsumer.

Now in the State Of Louisiana there is a consumer law that says and I quote
here. If a Realstate company or Builder in the State of Louisiana sells a
home. he / she / it is responisible for any deffects know or unknown for 2
years. No if ,and's , or but's. There is really no warrenty sold here on the
new home for builders and realistate brokers all pay insurance if they fail
to fix or repair anything under this provission. Now the State will pull
their licences to operate in the state along with having to pay the repairs.

There has been a case like this where the Builder got the buyer to sign a
waver to warrenty and did not explain it to him. The buyer had trouble and
called the builder and he pulled out the waver agreement and when the smoke
cleared . The builder licences was pulled for doing business in Louisiana
for 90 days , paid another contractor to fix the problem, and paid all legal
fees.

If a builder / realstate dealer want to sell a warrenty to fix it. he is
more than welcome to do so and con the buyer out of the cost but if the
warrenty do pay all the expence in full. the burden of cost falls back on
the Builder / realstate dealer . Here a realstate dealer will pay for the
warrenty to put it between the buyer and them to take up most of the cost.
Now if cost does rize about warrent. Look out here it comes.

Louisiana figured out the fast talking lawyer years ago and put a stop to
the whip lash dealing here. Other staste may let you get away with this but
Louisiana don't allow it at all.


You would be correct if the warranty is an option. And in general all extra
cost warranties are a bad idea, better to bank the money and use it if needed.
The builder is obligated to meet codes and to produce a merchantable product in
any case.

But the case in point involves a warranty which was touted up front and was
included (hidden) in the sell price. These third party warranties are just a
means to avoid having the keep fixers on hand and to let someone else deal with
the after market support. The give nervous home buyers a false sense of
security. The last home I sold, the buyer wanted a specific homeowners warranty
on my nickel. I suspect her agent had put her up to it no doubt for an extra
commission. I told the agent it they wanted a warranty then go buy it
themselves. The deal went through without a warranty.

Regards,

John


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Art Begun
 
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Default New home warranty

You would certainly think that the attorney would have to represent
who ever was paying for him but that may not be the case.

If the contract says that you will pay for the builder's attorney, he
will represent the builder. You can check on that. I did and he was.
But I still had to pay because that is what the contract said.





"B a r r y B u r k e J r ." Keep it in the kyou
wrote in message ...
On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 17:39:36 -0400, "Art Begun"
wrote:

What kills me is that in many states the buyer pays for the

attorney
and he will not open his mouth and say anything because he wants to
get the closing over with. In other states the builder may supply

the
attorney. If you let them you are letting yourself be screwed.

Some
other states don't involve attorney's any more. In those cases you
pay less for the closing and you get what you pay for.


An attorney represents the person who is paying his or her fee,
period.

If I was involved in any deal where my interests were not being
represented, I'd bring my own attorney.

Builders and selling real estate agents love to downplay the need

for
a buyer to hire an attorney, just like they downplay the need for a
3rd party inspector / engineer.

A home is usually one of the largest transactions of a person's

life.
I can't understand why everyone dosen't spend the $300-500 to have
their, and only their, interests protected.

FWIW, I am not an attorney, and I have nothing to do with any
attorney.

Barry



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JTM
 
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The latest house I bought (the one I'm living in), I demanded a
warranty as part of the selling terms. The seller agreed...and it
cost him $120. He obviously felt it was a reasonable cost to close
the deal.

In my area, few homes are sold without a warranty. I don't know if
this is a national trend or not.

As an aside...

I can't image ANYONE going to a closing without an
attorney...especially if its a new house. If yer spending $250,000+
on a purchase, how much will an extra $100 or so...for insurance...set
you back?


If it gives you a warm fuzzy feeling then great, but how much protection do you
think you are getting for $50 (there is at least a 50% margin for commissions
and profit)? You couldn't be getting much protection--as I recall the warranty I
refused to provide was ~$500. And even at that price they are worthless. These
warranties are filled with weasel words and exclusions and they get to choose
what kind of fix is implemented. They are just an extra profit generator that
takes advantage of new home buyers and the loss of clear thinking that seems to
affect people when making major purchases.

A case in point--my supervisor had a dream house custom built and the contractor
left the insulation out from below the windows in several places which caused
the windows to fog up in the winter time. He complained numerous times about
the problem and all he got was some guy with a caulk gun trying to fix that
which couldn't be fixed (at least not with caulking. When he finally found out
what the real problem was, the warranty company refused to fix it and he
eventually sold the home as is.

My uncle bought a fifthwheel trailer and a dual wheeled pickup with dealer
installed fifth wheel and towing package. The dealer also sold him an extended
warranty on the engine and drive train. It was supposed to be good anywhere in
the US. When the transmission died in Phoenix he spent a month fighting to get
the local deal to honor the warranty. I think he finally got some satifaction
because he was retired and could wait out the excuses.

No deal is too good to walk away from and if you don't have that attitude then
you will be repeatedly taken advantage of in deals through out your life. One
estimate is that the average consumer will lose $20,000 over a life time to
fraud and abuse in the market place and this study was 20 years ago, today would
probably be twice that.

Regards,

John


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