Just got the new Lenovo T420 semi-configured . I have questions ...how do
I get this Win7 Pro thing to talk to my XP comps on my home network ? And I
know it was posted here but I can't find how to eliminate the Win10 nag . We
ain't goin' there , I prefer to stick with an OS that keeps the info here at
home and doesn't have all that spyware . If I thought I could make this
thing run XP I might try , but I'm afraid drivers would be hard to find .

--
Snag

On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 12:08:12 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

Just got the new Lenovo T420 semi-configured . I have questions ...how do
I get this Win7 Pro thing to talk to my XP comps on my home network ? And I
know it was posted here but I can't find how to eliminate the Win10 nag . We
ain't goin' there , I prefer to stick with an OS that keeps the info here at
home and doesn't have all that spyware . If I thought I could make this
thing run XP I might try , but I'm afraid drivers would be hard to find .

I forget a lot of stuff...

Try turning off the Win7, boot the XP system first. (Think
corporations) XP holds an election -- seeking control or to join a
domain. / sub domain.

IIUC, Win7 is a client, per se. Then join that machine to the XP host.

Somebody will correct me

On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 12:08:12 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

Just got the new Lenovo T420 semi-configured . I have questions ...how do
I get this Win7 Pro thing to talk to my XP comps on my home network ? And I
know it was posted here but I can't find how to eliminate the Win10 nag . We
ain't goin' there , I prefer to stick with an OS that keeps the info here at
home and doesn't have all that spyware . If I thought I could make this
thing run XP I might try , but I'm afraid drivers would be hard to find .

From my experience the W/7 machine will see the XP machine (file
share) without any drama. Going the other way is a trick that I have
not been willing to tackle. You need to set up some security doo dad
on the XP machine that gets past the W/7 password wall.
It is really a high hoop if you want to print on a w/98 machine but
w/7 has no problem using an XP attached printer

On 4/12/2016 10:08 AM, Terry Coombs wrote:
Just got the new Lenovo T420 semi-configured . I have questions ...how do
I get this Win7 Pro thing to talk to my XP comps on my home network ? And I
know it was posted here but I can't find how to eliminate the Win10 nag . We
ain't goin' there , I prefer to stick with an OS that keeps the info here at
home and doesn't have all that spyware . If I thought I could make this
thing run XP I might try , but I'm afraid drivers would be hard to find .

http://www.patchysan.net/thinkpad/T420%20Windows%20Install%20Guide.pdf

What do you mean by "talking"?
- SMB file/printer shares
- IIS
- other protocols

On 4/12/16 1:08 PM, Terry Coombs wrote:
Just got the new Lenovo T420 semi-configured . I have questions ...how do
I get this Win7 Pro thing to talk to my XP comps on my home network ? And I
know it was posted here but I can't find *how to eliminate the Win10 nag* . We
ain't goin' there , I prefer to stick with an OS that keeps the info here at
home and doesn't have all that spyware . If I thought I could make this
thing run XP I might try , but I'm afraid drivers would be hard to find .


Re the nag and "forced" Win 10 upgrade, Daughter's Win 7 PC was
getting pop-ups from Microsoft saying Win 10 would be "installed
today". It would only allow a delay for about 3 days. Based on
recommendation from IT guy at work, we installed an app (GWX10) that
removes the icon and stops the "forced" upgrade to Win 10. Ran it
about 3 weeks ago now, and no more nags or threats, and PC is working
fine otherwise. Check it out at:
http://blog.ultimateoutsider.com/201...ly-remove.html

On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 11:25:07 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 4/12/2016 10:08 AM, Terry Coombs wrote:
Just got the new Lenovo T420 semi-configured . I have questions ...how do
I get this Win7 Pro thing to talk to my XP comps on my home network ? And I
know it was posted here but I can't find how to eliminate the Win10 nag . We
ain't goin' there , I prefer to stick with an OS that keeps the info here at
home and doesn't have all that spyware . If I thought I could make this
thing run XP I might try , but I'm afraid drivers would be hard to find .

http://www.patchysan.net/thinkpad/T420%20Windows%20Install%20Guide.pdf

What do you mean by "talking"?
- SMB file/printer shares
- IIS
- other protocols


He means one unit knocks on the door and the other unit allows entry.

Sheesh.

On 4/12/2016 12:18 PM, Retired wrote:

Re the nag and "forced" Win 10 upgrade, Daughter's Win 7 PC was getting pop-ups
from Microsoft saying Win 10 would be "installed today". It would only allow a
delay for about 3 days. Based on recommendation from IT guy at work, we
installed an app (GWX10) that removes the icon and stops the "forced" upgrade
to Win 10. Ran it about 3 weeks ago now, and no more nags or threats, and PC is
working fine otherwise. Check it out at:
http://blog.ultimateoutsider.com/201...ly-remove.html

This is a cat and mouse game. The next "essential update" for the box can
reinstall the nag mechanism -- requiring another patch/hack to disable that.
As long as you're tied into the update process, you are at the mercy of
MS to decide what software runs on your machine (because THEY are installing
the software that THEY choose!)

On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 12:30:55 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 4/12/2016 12:18 PM, Retired wrote:

Re the nag and "forced" Win 10 upgrade, Daughter's Win 7 PC was getting pop-ups
from Microsoft saying Win 10 would be "installed today". It would only allow a
delay for about 3 days. Based on recommendation from IT guy at work, we
installed an app (GWX10) that removes the icon and stops the "forced" upgrade
to Win 10. Ran it about 3 weeks ago now, and no more nags or threats, and PC is
working fine otherwise. Check it out at:
http://blog.ultimateoutsider.com/201...ly-remove.html

This is a cat and mouse game. The next "essential update" for the box can
reinstall the nag mechanism -- requiring another patch/hack to disable that.
As long as you're tied into the update process, you are at the mercy of
MS to decide what software runs on your machine (because THEY are installing
the software that THEY choose!)

Hornswoggle. Hide the Icon -- done.

MSFT hasn't made me take the product.

On 4/12/2016 1:08 PM, Terry Coombs wrote:
Just got the new Lenovo T420 semi-configured . I have questions ...how do
I get this Win7 Pro thing to talk to my XP comps on my home network ? And I
know it was posted here but I can't find how to eliminate the Win10 nag . We
ain't goin' there , I prefer to stick with an OS that keeps the info here at
home and doesn't have all that spyware . If I thought I could make this
thing run XP I might try , but I'm afraid drivers would be hard to find .



http://www.majorgeeks.com/files/deta...rol_panel.html

John

| And I
| know it was posted here but I can't find how to eliminate the Win10 nag .

I keep seeing articles like this at infoworld.com

http://www.infoworld.com/article/305...ne-part-2.html

As Don Y said, it's a cat and mouse game. MS
want to force it and will do whatever they think
they can get away with. Each level of intrusion that
people accept sets the stage for the next level.
If you want to avoid Win10 you'll need to stay
on your toes.

My approach on all my computers is to block all
update functionality (Windows Update and BITS
service on Win7). I always like to weed out
unnecessary and/or unsafe services as part of
setup. With Win7 I install SP1 and then disable
updates. I would never let Microsoft touch any
of my machines. They simply can't be trusted.

Many people think that approach is crazy, but
the tradition of constant updates is a new one
that results in unstable systems and was invented,
in large part, as part of the move toward services.
It's easier to sell people on the idea that they don't
own and control the software they paid for if
they're used to that software calling home on
a regular basis.

In practice, Windows updates are of low importance.
The critical updates are mostly for Internet-connecting
software like browsers. If you avoid IE online and
avoid MS Office -- or at least MS Office email
attachments -- you've already solved much of
the Windows security problem. The rest is Flash,
Java, javascript, etc.

| If I thought I could make this
| thing run XP I might try , but I'm afraid drivers would be hard to find .
|

It depends on what you need. It's easy enough
to check for your hardware. I still run XP on my
main machine. I built a new box for it last year.
I bought a new printer a few months ago. Most
things still support XP because XP is still in wide
usage and is not fundamentally different from
Vista/7.

John wrote:
On 4/12/2016 1:08 PM, Terry Coombs wrote:
Just got the new Lenovo T420 semi-configured . I have questions
...how do I get this Win7 Pro thing to talk to my XP comps on my
home network ? And I know it was posted here but I can't find how to
eliminate the Win10 nag . We ain't goin' there , I prefer to stick
with an OS that keeps the info here at home and doesn't have all
that spyware . If I thought I could make this thing run XP I might
try , but I'm afraid drivers would be hard to find .


http://www.majorgeeks.com/files/deta...rol_panel.html

John

Somebody else beat you to posting that link , but thanks for trying !

--
Snag

On Tuesday, April 12, 2016 at 1:07:35 PM UTC-4, Terry Coombs wrote:
Just got the new Lenovo T420 semi-configured . I have questions ...how do
I get this Win7 Pro thing to talk to my XP comps on my home network ?

Go to Control panel, network and sharing center, connect to a network

or set up a new network.





And I
know it was posted here but I can't find how to eliminate the Win10 nag . We
ain't goin' there , I prefer to stick with an OS that keeps the info here at
home and doesn't have all that spyware . If I thought I could make this
thing run XP I might try , but I'm afraid drivers would be hard to find .

--
Snag

Can't help you with that. I have Win 7 running here and haven't been
getting nagged. But I also have it setup for notifying me of updates
and let me choose when to install them. I'm due for about 20 updates
that I haven't installed, going back a few months, I guess. Maybe
when I put them in I will start getting the mesgs, IDK.

On 4/13/2016 4:55 AM, Mayayana wrote:
| And I
| know it was posted here but I can't find how to eliminate the Win10 nag .

I keep seeing articles like this at infoworld.com

http://www.infoworld.com/article/305...ne-part-2.html

As Don Y said, it's a cat and mouse game. MS
want to force it and will do whatever they think
they can get away with. Each level of intrusion that
people accept sets the stage for the next level.
If you want to avoid Win10 you'll need to stay
on your toes.

Even if you "avoid W10", there's no guarantee that you can avoid the
W10-sorts of "features" that MS wants to foist onto you!

MS has been "spying" for more than a decade. Most folks just gleefully
ignored all of the warnings (EULA) each time you installed an update
(or, allowed your machine to do it on your behalf -- so you didn't have
to be *bothered*).

Most media files are associated with WMP. Unless you've taken explicit
steps to PREVENT it from looking up "missing media information" from
the Internet, it has been disclosing the names of each file that
you play (or copy with ANOTHER PROGRAM!). Likewise, acquiring licenses
for DRM-ed content.

[In theory, this is anonymized information. In practice, your machine
has already been identified by a variety of techniques that you're virtually
impossible to prevent. *Who* you are is just a short step from there.]

From the WMP EULA:
"The purpose of the Player ID is to allow content providers to identify
your connection. If a unique Player ID is sent, content providers will
have the ability to correlate the information in your logs over multiple
sessions."
And:
[fetching artist, title, album art, etc.]
"Note that this option also applies to Windows Media Audio files that have
been copied from CDs using the Player. These files contain an identifier
for the CD and the Player will update these files with the downloaded
related media information."
Did you happen to notice that you can specify the update FREQUENCY for WMP
but can't DISABLE its updates??

Of course, there's the flap over IE8 "apparently" stealing google searches
(i.e., IE8 has been spying on your activities -- but, IE8 was an *update*
that you invited in!)

And, the first invocation of IE (any version) always tries to load a
page from MS.com as your start page (unless you are proactive enough
to be offline when you first invoke it, change the start page and
save those changes).

A DNS-lookup failure in IE causes MS to "help you" by passing the "URL"
to MS for a more detailed "search". Of course, your HTTP headers
disclose what browser you're using, what OS, etc.

Click Start | Search and watch to see which packets are squirted out of
your machine -- and where they are headed. And, all you've done is
click Start | Search!

Likewise, when you invoke the Help system

Have a program crash? MS would like to do a post mortem. Let your
machine send the appropriate data to them and it discloses what you
were running along with bits of your registry. (Of course, your registry
is full of MRU entries that indicate what you have "worked on" in the
past)

And, the REMOTE registry service is active, by default.

MS's firewall is software *they* wrote. So, can let any traffic through
that *they* see fit. Anything that uses the raw socket interface can
bypass firewalls running *on* the MS host.

etc.

(Those are just the easy things to stumble over. If MS is more determined
to "report home", they got other methods I've previously mentioned to
tunnel through even external firewalls! And, if you happen NOT to be
on-line at the time they want to report these things, they've got gobs
of disk space and places to stash that information for later retrieval!)

So, cling to something pre-W10. Play wack-a-mole with each new advertising
scheme MS deploys. But, if you're still letting them install software on
your machine INTENTIONALLY, you'll be drawn in the same W10 direction
(even if your OS describe itself as 7even, Vista, etc.!)

My approach on all my computers is to block all
update functionality (Windows Update and BITS
service on Win7). I always like to weed out
unnecessary and/or unsafe services as part of
setup. With Win7 I install SP1 and then disable
updates. I would never let Microsoft touch any
of my machines. They simply can't be trusted.

+42

I do *offline* updates for my machines (so MS doesn't even know
how many machines I have, here, as they don't contact MS to retrieve
those updates). And, keep all of the machines offline so they can
never leak information *or* be victimized by buggy/insecure code.

*Prior* to installing the updates, I reviewed them all (there are
descriptions of the "problems" each are designed to address) and
decided which I needed and which I could live without. I only
have to do this ONCE and can then know that the update can be applied
(or REapplied) to any machine that later needs it.

Many people think that approach is crazy, but
the tradition of constant updates is a new one
that results in unstable systems and was invented,
in large part, as part of the move toward services.

I'd disagree. I see it as a flagrant admission that MS has low
confidence in the quality of their products. (ditto with other
manufacturers going this way). If you look through the descriptions
of the updates (esp the security related ones), you see the same
sort of problem being fixed over and over -- in different places.
As if they never learned from their FIRST screwup and put in place
design techniques that would prevent those sorts of problems.

Now, of course, as people are accustomed to endless updates, it has
morphed into the service oriented mentality. And, the notion that
the vendor can control the software you run. Don't like the
cloud? Fine, we'll put the cloud on YOUR machine and leave you
in the same boat!

It's easier to sell people on the idea that they don't
own and control the software they paid for if
they're used to that software calling home on
a regular basis.

In practice, Windows updates are of low importance.
The critical updates are mostly for Internet-connecting
software like browsers. If you avoid IE online and
avoid MS Office -- or at least MS Office email
attachments -- you've already solved much of
the Windows security problem. The rest is Flash,
Java, javascript, etc.

| If I thought I could make this
| thing run XP I might try , but I'm afraid drivers would be hard to find .

It depends on what you need. It's easy enough
to check for your hardware. I still run XP on my
main machine. I built a new box for it last year.
I bought a new printer a few months ago. Most
things still support XP because XP is still in wide
usage and is not fundamentally different from
Vista/7.

Often, drivers are removed from manufacturers' web sites.
So, it can be tedious to chase down legacy drivers (I do
this frequently as I am always maintaining and building machines
for friends and local charities with donated hardware)

Of course, the first thing I do with *my* machines is start
an archive of all of the pertinent drivers and other materials
for each specific machine so I can RE-build it at a later
date.

| Even if you "avoid W10", there's no guarantee that you can avoid the
| W10-sorts of "features" that MS wants to foist onto you!
| .....
| Most media files are associated with WMP.

Good point. It's good to avoid *all* MS software,
as much as possible. (As well as Google and Apple.)
There's no reason to use WMP. The free VLC
Media Player works great. Libre Office instead of
MS Office. Firefox or Pale Moon instead of IE or
Chrome. Firewall software instead of Windows
firewall. Disk image backup in place of system restore
and OEM restore partitions.....


| A DNS-lookup failure in IE causes MS to "help you" by passing the "URL"

There's opendns and opennicproject.org for
DNS. I won't get into those details. It's a lot
to explain for anyone who doesn't know what
DNS is, but people can look it up.

| And, the REMOTE registry service is active, by default.
|
Indeed. As are lots of other things that shouldn't
be running on stand-alone computers. There was an article
just today about security risks with RPC, which is a
perennial problem. If you allow outside communication
in for file sharing, remote desktop help, etc, you're at
high risk and that hole can't be closed.

| Many people think that approach is crazy, but
| the tradition of constant updates is a new one
| that results in unstable systems and was invented,
| in large part, as part of the move toward services.
|
| I'd disagree. I see it as a flagrant admission that MS has low
| confidence in the quality of their products.

If MS hadn't gradually established automatic updates
as normal there would be no way to force-install Win10,
much less acceptance of it. In '99 I remember a case
where MS was caught looking in the Registry for
info when people logged on to Windows Update. People
were enraged. MS promised to stop. In the intervening
years they've gradually acclimated people to thinking
their computer doesn't actually belong to them.

A 3rd reason (besides services marketing and unfinished
software) is beta testing. Non-coprorate Win10 users
cannot turn off updates. That means the "civilian"
customer base is working for free as a massive beta
testing force. Once the bugs are ironed out with home
users the fixes can be shipped to corporate users.

| Often, drivers are removed from manufacturers' web sites.
| So, it can be tedious to chase down legacy drivers (I do
| this frequently as I am always maintaining and building machines
| for friends and local charities with donated hardware)
|

I actually saw that recently with HP. Their site
is a mess to begin with. I managed to find a driver
for an early-XP-era scanner, even though one page
said it no longer existed. But when I went back later
I couldn't find that same download page. They just said
the model was no longer supported. That's the
first time I've seen a company actually refuse to
provide drivers they've been providing in the past,
for a product their customers are still using. I expect
that must be pressure from MS, but it's still very
sleazy.

I find, though, that it varies a lot. I had to get
an older driver for a Xerox scanner recently. What
a beautifully functional and simple site they had!
No script required. No travelling between a dozen
different servers the way HP does things. No redirecting
a deep link to a useless homepage. Just a clear
page with a clear download link, which I found easily
through a search.

There are also differences in sources for the same
thing. Example: A few years ago I had trouble getting
chipset drivers. If I remember right it was VIA.
They had just one chipset driver installer for all Windows
versions, which they made available at their site.
Yet the motherboard dealer (Maybe MSI? I'm not
sure now) said they no longer supported older
Windows systems. They were actually lying to block
older Windows, despite that they didn't even make
the drivers and that VIA was happy to provide them.
If I hadn't found the VIA site I would have been
out of luck.

On 4/13/2016 7:30 AM, Mayayana wrote:

| A DNS-lookup failure in IE causes MS to "help you" by passing the "URL"

There's opendns and opennicproject.org for
DNS. I won't get into those details. It's a lot
to explain for anyone who doesn't know what
DNS is, but people can look it up.

Different issue. The point is that specifying an "invalid" URl
causes that information to be sent to MS -- to help you
figure out what you REALLY meant to type (i.e., as "search
from address bad" -- No, I didn't want to initiate a search!
I just misspelled something!)

| And, the REMOTE registry service is active, by default.
|
Indeed. As are lots of other things that shouldn't
be running on stand-alone computers. There was an article
just today about security risks with RPC, which is a
perennial problem. If you allow outside communication
in for file sharing, remote desktop help, etc, you're at
high risk and that hole can't be closed.

MS's rationale is: "Computers are complicated. Let's make
things easy for everyone -- esp when it comes at THEIR
expense and not ours!"

[neverending update cycle]

A 3rd reason (besides services marketing and unfinished
software) is beta testing. Non-coprorate Win10 users
cannot turn off updates. That means the "civilian"
customer base is working for free as a massive beta
testing force. Once the bugs are ironed out with home
users the fixes can be shipped to corporate users.

MS is not unique in this. All software vendors have adopted the
"we don't have time to test it" mentality.

As a designer of *devices/appliances*, I find it amusing that
there is an implied warranty in every product that *I* make,
even though it is largely "software". Yet, a software vendor
can disavow all warranties (beyond the distribution media
itself) and no one seems to mind, this!

I've toyed with the idea of offering the hardware in my devices
"for free" and charging to install the software on those items
(to make them into the products they would otherwise have been).
Then, disclaiming any warranty on that FREE hardware -- and
gleefully claiming that the software also is devoid of warranties
(for the same reason as PC software)

I.e., I'm "giving away" the equivalent of the PC and charging for
the unwarrantied software that gives it purpose in life! If it
fails to work as expected (or, if the free hardware breaks) shrug

I've not explored some of the subtler consequences (or extent) of
MS's W10 "spyware program". E.g., as it pertains to HIPPA constraints.
*Any* spying can be a violation of those terms in certain deployments.

| Often, drivers are removed from manufacturers' web sites.
| So, it can be tedious to chase down legacy drivers (I do
| this frequently as I am always maintaining and building machines
| for friends and local charities with donated hardware)

I actually saw that recently with HP. Their site
is a mess to begin with. I managed to find a driver
for an early-XP-era scanner, even though one page
said it no longer existed. But when I went back later
I couldn't find that same download page. They just said
the model was no longer supported. That's the
first time I've seen a company actually refuse to
provide drivers they've been providing in the past,
for a product their customers are still using. I expect
that must be pressure from MS, but it's still very
sleazy.

If you are resourceful, you can usually find these things
in other places. It takes a bit of detective work, though.
E.g., getting the actual name of the file ("setup.exe" is
an unfortunate one!). There are tools to search private
FTP servers for squirreled away copies, etc.

Personally, I maintain an archive of everything that I can find
for each piece of equipment that I own -- or HAVE owned in the
past. I tend to cling to hardware longer than most folks
("if it ain't broke...") and may not realize the value of
some particular "resource" until much later ("Ah! So THAT'S
what this is for!")

I used to do this for every machine I built/serviced, as well.
But, now spin that stuff off to a DVD and hope it is readable
when/if I ever have to revisit that particular device (or a
similar one). In the event I can't access that information,
"Sorry, I don't have the stuff I'd need to fix that for you..."

Saving a copy of a web page that LISTS the drivers (and/or
associates a purpose with each filename) can be a godsend
down the road!

Terry Coombs wrote:
Just got the new Lenovo T420 semi-configured . I have questions
...how do I get this Win7 Pro thing to talk to my XP comps on my home
network ? And I know it was posted here but I can't find how to
eliminate the Win10 nag . We ain't goin' there , I prefer to stick
with an OS that keeps the info here at home and doesn't have all that
spyware . If I thought I could make this thing run XP I might try ,
but I'm afraid drivers would be hard to find .

My thanks to all for the suggestions . The network problems have now
apparently been ironed out , and the Win10 forced install problem has
(apparently) been solved by installing the GWX control panel that was
suggested .
Mama likes it ... and I get the Tosh back for whatever I want to do with
it . Got a touchpad problem right now , might be that I didn't get it
reconnected correctly when I installed the new processor .
--
Snag

"Don Y" wrote in message

And, keep all of the machines offline so they can
never leak information *or* be victimized by buggy/insecure code.

And they can never be of much practical use in the year 2016. Once you
start using the cloud you realize that it's far too useful to justify doing
things the old way - unless you're working in a SCIF 100 feet underground in
a bunker somewhere.

*Prior* to installing the updates, I reviewed them all (there are
descriptions of the "problems" each are designed to address) and
decided which I needed and which I could live without. I only
have to do this ONCE and can then know that the update can be applied
(or REapplied) to any machine that later needs it.

Many people think that approach is crazy, but
the tradition of constant updates is a new one
that results in unstable systems and was invented,
in large part, as part of the move toward services.

I'd disagree. I see it as a flagrant admission that MS has low
confidence in the quality of their products. (ditto with other
manufacturers going this way). If you look through the descriptions
of the updates (esp the security related ones), you see the same
sort of problem being fixed over and over -- in different places.
As if they never learned from their FIRST screwup and put in place
design techniques that would prevent those sorts of problems.

Now, of course, as people are accustomed to endless updates, it has
morphed into the service oriented mentality. And, the notion that
the vendor can control the software you run. Don't like the
cloud? Fine, we'll put the cloud on YOUR machine and leave you
in the same boat!

It's easier to sell people on the idea that they don't
own and control the software they paid for if
they're used to that software calling home on
a regular basis.

In practice, Windows updates are of low importance.
The critical updates are mostly for Internet-connecting
software like browsers. If you avoid IE online and
avoid MS Office -- or at least MS Office email
attachments -- you've already solved much of
the Windows security problem. The rest is Flash,
Java, javascript, etc.

| If I thought I could make this
| thing run XP I might try , but I'm afraid drivers would be hard to
find .

It depends on what you need. It's easy enough
to check for your hardware. I still run XP on my
main machine. I built a new box for it last year.
I bought a new printer a few months ago. Most
things still support XP because XP is still in wide
usage and is not fundamentally different from
Vista/7.

Often, drivers are removed from manufacturers' web sites.
So, it can be tedious to chase down legacy drivers (I do
this frequently as I am always maintaining and building machines
for friends and local charities with donated hardware)

Of course, the first thing I do with *my* machines is start
an archive of all of the pertinent drivers and other materials
for each specific machine so I can RE-build it at a later
date.

I usually start by turning them on. (-: But seriously, look at Apple and
Google Chromebooks. People will soon wonder why they *ever* had to fuss
with drivers, backups and security the way Windows makes them.

--
Bobby G.

| And, keep all of the machines offline so they can
| never leak information *or* be victimized by buggy/insecure code.
|
| And they can never be of much practical use in the year 2016. Once you
| start using the cloud you realize that it's far too useful to justify
doing
| things the old way - unless you're working in a SCIF 100 feet underground
in
| a bunker somewhere.
|

There are lots of levels in between. I spend a lot
of time online but don't use any "cloud" services
and rarely enable risky behavior such as javascript.
That's not an option if you spend your time as a
Facebookie and Amazon denizen, but many of us
don't. I also don't feel the need to diddle with
Facebook, Twitter, or games when I'm on a bus
or in a cafe, so I don't need a lightweight services
device.

One can use any old device to get files from
Dropbox, log into Facebook and send email. That
can be very convenient if you don't actually use
computers to do any kind of work. It's also
convenient if you want to, say, read email while
taking a bus to work. But it means that you
no longer fully own your files and that you depend
on commercial services for things you do with a
computer. You're not using a computer. You're
using a kind of interactive TV.

Software is also going cloud, except that it isn't. If
you want the latest Photoshop you have to rent it.
But it installs on your computer. The cloud part is
that it's spyware and you can't buy it outright. Actually
running such software remotely, as a real cloud service,
would be unworkable for both the server and the client.

I think there's actually a version of Photoshop for
phones now. Great. The perfect tool for the person
who buys amazing screwdrivers with 157 bits from
late night TV ads for only $3.99.

| Of course, the first thing I do with *my* machines is start
| an archive of all of the pertinent drivers and other materials
| for each specific machine so I can RE-build it at a later
| date.
|
| I usually start by turning them on. (-: But seriously, look at Apple and
| Google Chromebooks. People will soon wonder why they *ever* had to fuss
| with drivers, backups and security the way Windows makes them.
|

Indeed. I know people who would say the
same about microwaves. Why have the
hassles of a frig, pantry and pans when you
can just buy a stack of frozen dinners?
Suit yourself. Just don't expect friends to
show up for dinner. One good thing about
the microwave, though: While, like chromebooks
it leaves you with very limited options, unlike
chromebooks it's not a spyware appliance...
At least not yet.

Actually I wonder why someone who's happy
with a chromebook needs anything at all. Why
not just get a computer phone? A lot of people
seem to be doing that: People who never really
needed a computer, don't want to deal with a
computer, but do want "consumer" services and
don't mind ubiquitous spyware and ads. If you're
happy being a passive consumer and just want
email, Facebook, restaurant recommendations,
maps, etc, then a computer phone may be all
you need. You can still post "Party on!" at
Facebook and vote for your favorite amateur
singer on network TV. That's the real test of
a useful device.

On 4/14/2016 2:41 AM, Robert Green wrote:
"Don Y" wrote in message

And, keep all of the machines offline so they can
never leak information *or* be victimized by buggy/insecure code.

And they can never be of much practical use in the year 2016. Once you
start using the cloud you realize that it's far too useful to justify doing
things the old way - unless you're working in a SCIF 100 feet underground in
a bunker somewhere.

Really? And why do I need to have CONVENIENT access to the internet from a
machine that I'm using to render 3D models of products? Or, layout circuit
boards for those products?
"Gee, how do you access your email or USENET -- or, read the
newspaper! -- from that machine?!"

"Ans: I don't. Because I don't NEED to access my email or USENET or
read a newspaper from that machine. Just like I don't need to do those
things when taking a shower, working on the car or eating lunch. Or,
while in a meeting with a client, etc."

The appeal of the cloud is for sharing with others -- including yourself
(location shifting).

"Gee, but what if someone announces a new component that could make
my design simpler WHILE I am in the process of designing it?"

"Ans: you freeze your implementation choices AT SOME POINT. Thereafter,
news of some radical new device is likely to be met with, 'Wow! I wish
they had invented/announced that a week earlier! Too late to make those
changes, now..."

The downside risk of internet-connected machine that has no explicit NEED
for that connection FAR outweighs the "savings" -- the need for me to get
up and walk to *this* machine to locate something on-line, check my mail,
etc.

*Prior* to installing the updates, I reviewed them all (there are
descriptions of the "problems" each are designed to address) and
decided which I needed and which I could live without. I only
have to do this ONCE and can then know that the update can be applied
(or REapplied) to any machine that later needs it.

Many people think that approach is crazy, but
the tradition of constant updates is a new one
that results in unstable systems and was invented,
in large part, as part of the move toward services.

I'd disagree. I see it as a flagrant admission that MS has low
confidence in the quality of their products. (ditto with other
manufacturers going this way). If you look through the descriptions
of the updates (esp the security related ones), you see the same
sort of problem being fixed over and over -- in different places.
As if they never learned from their FIRST screwup and put in place
design techniques that would prevent those sorts of problems.

Now, of course, as people are accustomed to endless updates, it has
morphed into the service oriented mentality. And, the notion that
the vendor can control the software you run. Don't like the
cloud? Fine, we'll put the cloud on YOUR machine and leave you
in the same boat!

It's easier to sell people on the idea that they don't
own and control the software they paid for if
they're used to that software calling home on
a regular basis.

In practice, Windows updates are of low importance.
The critical updates are mostly for Internet-connecting
software like browsers. If you avoid IE online and
avoid MS Office -- or at least MS Office email
attachments -- you've already solved much of
the Windows security problem. The rest is Flash,
Java, javascript, etc.

| If I thought I could make this
| thing run XP I might try , but I'm afraid drivers would be hard to
find .

It depends on what you need. It's easy enough
to check for your hardware. I still run XP on my
main machine. I built a new box for it last year.
I bought a new printer a few months ago. Most
things still support XP because XP is still in wide
usage and is not fundamentally different from
Vista/7.

Often, drivers are removed from manufacturers' web sites.
So, it can be tedious to chase down legacy drivers (I do
this frequently as I am always maintaining and building machines
for friends and local charities with donated hardware)

Of course, the first thing I do with *my* machines is start
an archive of all of the pertinent drivers and other materials
for each specific machine so I can RE-build it at a later
date.

I usually start by turning them on. (-: But seriously, look at Apple and
Google Chromebooks. People will soon wonder why they *ever* had to fuss
with drivers, backups and security the way Windows makes them.

Last time I checked, you couldn't get a 12x18 digitizer with your Chromebook.
And, connecting SCSI drives was a bit ... impossible. Ditto scanners,
motion controllers, other sorts of pointing devices, pen plotters, a variety of
wired printers, PROM programmers, etc.

(Ah, connect all of those to a DIFFERENT device -- say, a PC? -- and talk to
them THROUGH that machine?)

I have 7 laptops (IIRC). Yet, hardly use any of them -- because ALL they
can do is let me type and view stuff. In order to do anything useful,
they have to be docked to gain physical access to (some) peripherals.
And, even docked, have to rely on other machines for access to other
devices (through the "drivers" installed on those machines).

So, the laptops amount to little more than portable typewriters.

On 4/14/2016 6:48 AM, Mayayana wrote:
Software is also going cloud, except that it isn't. If

Because the cloud isn't designed for services that are highly
interactive; you need "local processing" for any sort of complex
interaction (anyone who has used a mail portal realizes how
sluggish the interface can be -- even with a high-speed connection)

you want the latest Photoshop you have to rent it.
But it installs on your computer. The cloud part is
that it's spyware and you can't buy it outright. Actually

The cloud offers you location shifting capability -- start
work on it from one location and finish working from another.

Plus pseudo-real-time sharing.

running such software remotely, as a real cloud service,
would be unworkable for both the server and the client.

| Of course, the first thing I do with *my* machines is start
| an archive of all of the pertinent drivers and other materials
| for each specific machine so I can RE-build it at a later
| date.
|
| I usually start by turning them on. (-: But seriously, look at Apple and
| Google Chromebooks. People will soon wonder why they *ever* had to fuss
| with drivers, backups and security the way Windows makes them.

Indeed. I know people who would say the
same about microwaves. Why have the
hassles of a frig, pantry and pans when you
can just buy a stack of frozen dinners?

Or TV -- why have to WATCH something when you can HEAR it without
committing your eyes to the task, as well?

Why bother with either -- if the Canadians invade, I'm sure one of
my neighbors will clue me in on that! (A friend had to drive over to
tell me when Challenger exploded)

Suit yourself. Just don't expect friends to
show up for dinner. One good thing about
the microwave, though: While, like chromebooks
it leaves you with very limited options, unlike
chromebooks it's not a spyware appliance...
At least not yet.

How many people could easily live without an oven? Stove?
Aside from baking, our oven sees no use -- stovetop, microwave
and countertop toaster/convection handle ALL of *our* meals.

We rarely use the dishwasher as we can wash two plates in
less time than it would take to load and unload from the
dishwasher!

etc.

Robert Green posted for all of us...


And they can never be of much practical use in the year 2016. Once you
start using the cloud you realize that it's far too useful to justify doing
things the old way - unless you're working in a SCIF 100 feet underground in
a bunker somewhere.


What cloud services are recommended. Comcast doesn't provide storage
anymore. (Same price or more-less features) I want to save some Quicken
files and used to have a double backup with a (th)dumb drive.

--
Tekkie

On Thu, 14 Apr 2016 14:38:16 -0400, Tekkie®
wrote:

What cloud services are recommended. Comcast doesn't provide storage
anymore. (Same price or more-less features) I want to save some Quicken
files and used to have a double backup with a (th)dumb drive.


.... drag the files over to the DVD RW burner and burn it. Saves time.

On 4/14/2016 8:39 PM, Oren wrote:
On Thu, 14 Apr 2016 14:38:16 -0400, Tekkie®
wrote:

What cloud services are recommended. Comcast doesn't provide storage
anymore. (Same price or more-less features) I want to save some Quicken
files and used to have a double backup with a (th)dumb drive.


... drag the files over to the DVD RW burner and burn it. Saves time.


I'd do that or a second usb drive. I don't trust the cloud no matter
who is running it.

Criminal will be constantly trying to get into a cloud, very few will be
logging on to a drive in your dresser drawer.

On Thu, 14 Apr 2016 20:46:04 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 4/14/2016 8:39 PM, Oren wrote:
On Thu, 14 Apr 2016 14:38:16 -0400, Tekkie®
wrote:

What cloud services are recommended. Comcast doesn't provide storage
anymore. (Same price or more-less features) I want to save some Quicken
files and used to have a double backup with a (th)dumb drive.


... drag the files over to the DVD RW burner and burn it. Saves time.


I'd do that or a second usb drive. I don't trust the cloud no matter
who is running it.

Criminal will be constantly trying to get into a cloud, very few will be
logging on to a drive in your dresser drawer.

There is no way in hell that I'd put personal info on a Cloud storage
thing. I dont have anything all that personal on my computer, just lots
of pictures, videos saved from youtube, music, and lots of manuals for
stuff that I own as PDF, auto repair info, and my phone number list. But
even that stuff I dont want anyone rummaging around in it. I have all my
stuff backed up on another computer, as well as on a portable hard
drive.

My laptop has also been copied to that same portable drive, but that
puter only has a half filled 40gb drive, so there is not much to backup.

Besides that, on dialup, it would take forever to copy my 300+ gb of
storage to a cloud.

On top of that, why would I want to pay some company a monthly bill, to
have that cloud, when I can buy a 1tb portable drive for under $100.

On Thu, 14 Apr 2016 20:46:04 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 4/14/2016 8:39 PM, Oren wrote:
On Thu, 14 Apr 2016 14:38:16 -0400, Tekkie®
wrote:

What cloud services are recommended. Comcast doesn't provide storage
anymore. (Same price or more-less features) I want to save some Quicken
files and used to have a double backup with a (th)dumb drive.


... drag the files over to the DVD RW burner and burn it. Saves time.


I'd do that or a second usb drive. I don't trust the cloud no matter
who is running it.

Criminal will be constantly trying to get into a cloud, very few will be
logging on to a drive in your dresser drawer.

I must confess my guilt. I have four never released Jimi Hendrix
records. (ISO files / binary decades ago.)