It turned out we had a sump pit but no pump.. When we
discovered this the hard way five years ago, I picked
up a pedestle mount "drop in" Flotek brand 1/3 horsepower
unit, claiming 20 gpm, and it worked fine. Water was
pumped out through a 2 inch flxible gooseneck/corrugated
plastic pipe and out the window.

hmm, never measured the wattage, but at 1/3 HP it
should be comething like 300 watts.

(it has a base where the impeller is, then a three foot
post, with the motor on the top)

We just got around to installing a permanent pump
that's fully in the pit, and hooked up the wiring
and PVC plumping, etc.

It's also a 1/3 HP unit and is pumping out the water
just fine.

But... when it kicks on the lights dim out during
the starting surge.

Grumble. And with it operating at (very roughly)
a two minutes off, ten seconds on (the "on" time
will increase when more rain comes down) this
flicker is happening enough to be quite annoying.

Any suggestions for a sump pump with less of
a starting surge?

Any other options for reducing its effect on
the rest of the house?

Thanks for your help.




--
__________________________________________________ ___
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key

[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

On 3/29/2016 9:05 PM, danny burstein wrote:
It turned out we had a sump pit but no pump.. When we
discovered this the hard way five years ago, I picked
up a pedestle mount "drop in" Flotek brand 1/3 horsepower
unit, claiming 20 gpm, and it worked fine. Water was
pumped out through a 2 inch flxible gooseneck/corrugated
plastic pipe and out the window.

hmm, never measured the wattage, but at 1/3 HP it
should be comething like 300 watts.

(it has a base where the impeller is, then a three foot
post, with the motor on the top)

We just got around to installing a permanent pump
that's fully in the pit, and hooked up the wiring
and PVC plumping, etc.

It's also a 1/3 HP unit and is pumping out the water
just fine.

But... when it kicks on the lights dim out during
the starting surge.

Grumble. And with it operating at (very roughly)
a two minutes off, ten seconds on (the "on" time
will increase when more rain comes down) this
flicker is happening enough to be quite annoying.

Is this behavior just a result of "today's weather"
(whatever that may be)? Or, is this sort of duty cycle
normal all the time (e.g., artesian well)?

Any suggestions for a sump pump with less of
a starting surge?

Any other options for reducing its effect on
the rest of the house?

Thanks for your help.

You might look for a battery powered pump with built-in charger.
As such, the battery supplies the large startup current while
the charger just tries to keep the battery topped off (at a
lower "charge rate" instead of "motor run rate")

This also has the advantage of protecting your property
during power outages.

In Don Y writes:


Grumble. And with it operating at (very roughly)
a two minutes off, ten seconds on (the "on" time
will increase when more rain comes down) this
flicker is happening enough to be quite annoying.

Is this behavior just a result of "today's weather"
(whatever that may be)? Or, is this sort of duty cycle
normal all the time (e.g., artesian well)?

It's been raining a fair amount the past couple
fo weeks so thie is pretty much ground saturation level.

Last week after the first seven days (times are approx..)
I lifter the cover off the pit and saw the water was
about a foot below the concrete floor (as opposed to
just an inch or so of seepage at the very bottom)
so pulled out the "drop in" Flotek and hooked it up.

At that point we decided to move the "get a real one"
from "someday" to "tomorrow".

- the heavy rains historically start in about two
more weeks. I looked through my records and got
the Flotek in mid April a few years ago...



Any suggestions for a sump pump with less of
a starting surge?

Any other options for reducing its effect on
the rest of the house?

Thanks for your help.

You might look for a battery powered pump with built-in charger.
As such, the battery supplies the large startup current while
the charger just tries to keep the battery topped off (at a
lower "charge rate" instead of "motor run rate")

This also has the advantage of protecting your property
during power outages.

--
__________________________________________________ ___
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key

[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

On Wednesday, March 30, 2016 at 12:05:52 AM UTC-4, danny burstein wrote:
It turned out we had a sump pit but no pump.. When we
discovered this the hard way five years ago, I picked
up a pedestle mount "drop in" Flotek brand 1/3 horsepower
unit, claiming 20 gpm, and it worked fine. Water was
pumped out through a 2 inch flxible gooseneck/corrugated
plastic pipe and out the window.

hmm, never measured the wattage, but at 1/3 HP it
should be comething like 300 watts.

(it has a base where the impeller is, then a three foot
post, with the motor on the top)

We just got around to installing a permanent pump
that's fully in the pit, and hooked up the wiring
and PVC plumping, etc.

It's also a 1/3 HP unit and is pumping out the water
just fine.

But... when it kicks on the lights dim out during
the starting surge.

Grumble. And with it operating at (very roughly)
a two minutes off, ten seconds on (the "on" time
will increase when more rain comes down) this
flicker is happening enough to be quite annoying.

Any suggestions for a sump pump with less of
a starting surge?

Any other options for reducing its effect on
the rest of the house?

Thanks for your help.



look for those small 1/8 or 1/6 HP pumps at Northern tool or Harbor Freight etc.

These are good also becasue you can run them off a decent sized inverter during a power failure.

Any motor will draw a surge when it starts. You would be better off running a seperate circuit to the breaker panel for the pump.

Is it really effecting the whole house or just lights on the same circuit?

On 3/30/2016 12:05 AM, danny burstein wrote:
But... when it kicks on the lights dim out during
the starting surge.

Grumble. And with it operating at (very roughly)
a two minutes off, ten seconds on (the "on" time
will increase when more rain comes down) this
flicker is happening enough to be quite annoying.

Any suggestions for a sump pump with less of
a starting surge?

Any other options for reducing its effect on
the rest of the house?

Thanks for your help.


Might be able to put it on the next breaker
over (which will be the other leg of the
220 power input). That would move the surge
to other leg of the power panel.

Or, you might buy a smaller HP sump pump.
Smaller sump might have a longer run cycle,
and less start up surge.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 03/29/2016 09:05 PM, danny burstein wrote:
[snip]
It's also a 1/3 HP unit and is pumping out the water
just fine.

But... when it kicks on the lights dim out during
the starting surge.

Grumble. And with it operating at (very roughly)
a two minutes off, ten seconds on (the "on" time
will increase when more rain comes down) this
flicker is happening enough to be quite annoying.

Any suggestions for a sump pump with less of
a starting surge?

Any other options for reducing its effect on
the rest of the house?

Install a dedicated circuit for it.

Jon

wrote:
On Wednesday, March 30, 2016 at 12:05:52 AM UTC-4, danny burstein
wrote:
It turned out we had a sump pit but no pump.. When we
discovered this the hard way five years ago, I picked
up a pedestle mount "drop in" Flotek brand 1/3 horsepower
unit, claiming 20 gpm, and it worked fine. Water was
pumped out through a 2 inch flxible gooseneck/corrugated
plastic pipe and out the window.

hmm, never measured the wattage, but at 1/3 HP it
should be comething like 300 watts.

(it has a base where the impeller is, then a three foot
post, with the motor on the top)

We just got around to installing a permanent pump
that's fully in the pit, and hooked up the wiring
and PVC plumping, etc.

It's also a 1/3 HP unit and is pumping out the water
just fine.

But... when it kicks on the lights dim out during
the starting surge.

Grumble. And with it operating at (very roughly)
a two minutes off, ten seconds on (the "on" time
will increase when more rain comes down) this
flicker is happening enough to be quite annoying.

Any suggestions for a sump pump with less of
a starting surge?

Any other options for reducing its effect on
the rest of the house?

Thanks for your help.



look for those small 1/8 or 1/6 HP pumps at Northern tool or Harbor
Freight etc.

These are good also becasue you can run them off a decent sized
inverter during a power failure.

Any motor will draw a surge when it starts. You would be better off
running a seperate circuit to the breaker panel for the pump.

Is it really effecting the whole house or just lights on the same
circuit?

A 1/3 hp motor shouldn't do that , the OP has an electrical problem that
needs to be diagnosed and repaired . Might be as simple as a neutral
connection in the panel ... might not . My compressor draws a lot more than
his pump , never even notice it has started unless I hear ir running ...
which reminds me , I think I forgot to turn off the air last night when I
wrapped up nailing the floor joists on the new kitchen . Not a big deal
since I replaced all those leaky quick-couplers though ...

--
Snag

On Wednesday, March 30, 2016 at 8:55:34 AM UTC-4, Jon Danniken wrote:
On 03/29/2016 09:05 PM, danny burstein wrote:
[snip]
It's also a 1/3 HP unit and is pumping out the water
just fine.

But... when it kicks on the lights dim out during
the starting surge.

Grumble. And with it operating at (very roughly)
a two minutes off, ten seconds on (the "on" time
will increase when more rain comes down) this
flicker is happening enough to be quite annoying.

Any suggestions for a sump pump with less of
a starting surge?

Any other options for reducing its effect on
the rest of the house?

Install a dedicated circuit for it.

Jon

Or find out what's wrong with that circuit. A 1/3 hp motor should
not be causing dimming. Are the lights even on that circuit? If
they are not then something is very wrong.

Also 10 secs on time sounds like either the sump pit isn't big
enough, the float isn't working properly, or there is no check
valve allowing water to run back in.

On 3/30/2016 5:56 AM, Terry Coombs wrote:
wrote:
On Wednesday, March 30, 2016 at 12:05:52 AM UTC-4, danny burstein
wrote:
It turned out we had a sump pit but no pump.. When we
discovered this the hard way five years ago, I picked
up a pedestle mount "drop in" Flotek brand 1/3 horsepower
unit, claiming 20 gpm, and it worked fine. Water was
pumped out through a 2 inch flxible gooseneck/corrugated
plastic pipe and out the window.

hmm, never measured the wattage, but at 1/3 HP it
should be comething like 300 watts.

(it has a base where the impeller is, then a three foot
post, with the motor on the top)

We just got around to installing a permanent pump
that's fully in the pit, and hooked up the wiring
and PVC plumping, etc.

It's also a 1/3 HP unit and is pumping out the water
just fine.

But... when it kicks on the lights dim out during
the starting surge.

Grumble. And with it operating at (very roughly)
a two minutes off, ten seconds on (the "on" time
will increase when more rain comes down) this
flicker is happening enough to be quite annoying.

Any suggestions for a sump pump with less of
a starting surge?

Any other options for reducing its effect on
the rest of the house?

Thanks for your help.

look for those small 1/8 or 1/6 HP pumps at Northern tool or Harbor
Freight etc.

These are good also becasue you can run them off a decent sized
inverter during a power failure.

Any motor will draw a surge when it starts. You would be better off
running a seperate circuit to the breaker panel for the pump.

Is it really effecting the whole house or just lights on the same
circuit?

A 1/3 hp motor shouldn't do that , the OP has an electrical problem that
needs to be diagnosed and repaired .

You can't unilaterally say that. At startup, the motor will draw it's locked
rotor current -- which can be 5-10X it's full load current. A 1/3HP motor
can easily see a locked rotor current of 15A or more.

The OP hasn't indicated what else might be on that circuit. Nor, how far
("electrically") it and the other affected loads (lights) are from the panel.

The OP can examine the nameplate on the motor for more information. IIRC,
there's a chart in the NEC that will allow him to determine LRC from that
data (worst case, from an engineering manual).

Might be as simple as a neutral
connection in the panel ... might not . My compressor draws a lot more than
his pump , never even notice it has started unless I hear ir running ...
which reminds me , I think I forgot to turn off the air last night when I
wrapped up nailing the floor joists on the new kitchen . Not a big deal
since I replaced all those leaky quick-couplers though ...

In Don Y writes:

A 1/3 hp motor shouldn't do that , the OP has an electrical problem that
needs to be diagnosed and repaired .

You can't unilaterally say that. At startup, the motor will draw it's locked
rotor current -- which can be 5-10X it's full load current. A 1/3HP motor
can easily see a locked rotor current of 15A or more.

The OP hasn't indicated what else might be on that circuit. Nor, how far
("electrically") it and the other affected loads (lights) are from the panel.

It makes all the lights (to a first order observation) on
that leg of the feed (we have the US standard of two
hot leads coming in from the meter) do a mini blink. In
other words, not just that one circuit.

- Most people wouldn't notice this... and it hasn't been
enough of a problem to reset computers or anything, but
it annoys me and potentially is shortening the life of
other stuff.

The OP can examine the nameplate on the motor for more information. IIRC,
there's a chart in the NEC that will allow him to determine LRC from that
data (worst case, from an engineering manual).

Alas, it's positioned in such a way that I can't readily
check that out. But I'll see what I can find.

I don't have an instaneous peak meter, just a couple
of the kil-a-watts that we all love and enjoy.

Thanks


--
__________________________________________________ ___
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key

[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

On 3/30/2016 12:45 PM, danny burstein wrote:
In Don Y writes:

A 1/3 hp motor shouldn't do that , the OP has an electrical problem that
needs to be diagnosed and repaired .

You can't unilaterally say that. At startup, the motor will draw it's locked
rotor current -- which can be 5-10X it's full load current. A 1/3HP motor
can easily see a locked rotor current of 15A or more.

The OP hasn't indicated what else might be on that circuit. Nor, how far
("electrically") it and the other affected loads (lights) are from the panel.

It makes all the lights (to a first order observation) on
that leg of the feed (we have the US standard of two
hot leads coming in from the meter) do a mini blink. In
other words, not just that one circuit.

Then you have a problem! If you were seeing a problem in other lights
*sharing* that branch circuit, I'd chalk it up to where the respective
loads tied into that circuit.

But, a fractional HP motor shouldn't affect your whole *house*!

Does your refrigerator, ACbrrrr, etc. cause similar flickering?
Did you notice similar behavior BEFORE replacing the pump?

- Most people wouldn't notice this... and it hasn't been
enough of a problem to reset computers or anything, but
it annoys me and potentially is shortening the life of
other stuff.

The OP can examine the nameplate on the motor for more information. IIRC,
there's a chart in the NEC that will allow him to determine LRC from that
data (worst case, from an engineering manual).

Alas, it's positioned in such a way that I can't readily
check that out. But I'll see what I can find.

I don't have an instaneous peak meter, just a couple
of the kil-a-watts that we all love and enjoy.

I use a "Watts Up? Pro". It would be able to monitor a 15A load
(it also has data logging and PC interface capabilities -- though
those may have been added to the KaW); not sure what the kill-a-watts
are capable of.

In Don Y writes:

Does your refrigerator, ACbrrrr, etc. cause similar flickering?
Did you notice similar behavior BEFORE replacing the pump?

Our refrigerator is a newer one from LG (which they stopped
making, grumble mumble) that uses a "ramp up" inverter
type motor. So it's quieter, more efficient, and doesn't
have a big start surge.

I do see it sometimes when the washing machine kerchunks.

The earlier Flotek model didn't have this issue but the
design was different.

Again, most people (outside of us here) wouldn't notice
these things.

- I know there's a market niche of "generator friendly"
well water pumps that are gentle when starting. Was hoping
someone here might have had suggestions for similar
sump pumps.

I use a "Watts Up? Pro". It would be able to monitor a 15A load
(it also has data logging and PC interface capabilities -- though
those may have been added to the KaW); not sure what the kill-a-watts
are capable of.

Well, my KAW's are a decade (!!!!) old (although I've picked
up some newer ones). I've noticed thay have some additional
(read, more pricey) models now. Maybe I'll take a look.


--
__________________________________________________ ___
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key

[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

On Wed, 30 Mar 2016 12:18:13 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 3/30/2016 5:56 AM, Terry Coombs wrote:
wrote:
On Wednesday, March 30, 2016 at 12:05:52 AM UTC-4, danny burstein
wrote:
It turned out we had a sump pit but no pump.. When we
discovered this the hard way five years ago, I picked
up a pedestle mount "drop in" Flotek brand 1/3 horsepower
unit, claiming 20 gpm, and it worked fine. Water was
pumped out through a 2 inch flxible gooseneck/corrugated
plastic pipe and out the window.

hmm, never measured the wattage, but at 1/3 HP it
should be comething like 300 watts.

(it has a base where the impeller is, then a three foot
post, with the motor on the top)

We just got around to installing a permanent pump
that's fully in the pit, and hooked up the wiring
and PVC plumping, etc.

It's also a 1/3 HP unit and is pumping out the water
just fine.

But... when it kicks on the lights dim out during
the starting surge.

Grumble. And with it operating at (very roughly)
a two minutes off, ten seconds on (the "on" time
will increase when more rain comes down) this
flicker is happening enough to be quite annoying.

Any suggestions for a sump pump with less of
a starting surge?

Any other options for reducing its effect on
the rest of the house?

Thanks for your help.

look for those small 1/8 or 1/6 HP pumps at Northern tool or Harbor
Freight etc.

These are good also becasue you can run them off a decent sized
inverter during a power failure.

Any motor will draw a surge when it starts. You would be better off
running a seperate circuit to the breaker panel for the pump.

Is it really effecting the whole house or just lights on the same
circuit?

A 1/3 hp motor shouldn't do that , the OP has an electrical problem that
needs to be diagnosed and repaired .

You can't unilaterally say that. At startup, the motor will draw it's locked
rotor current -- which can be 5-10X it's full load current. A 1/3HP motor
can easily see a locked rotor current of 15A or more.

The OP hasn't indicated what else might be on that circuit. Nor, how far
("electrically") it and the other affected loads (lights) are from the panel.

The OP can examine the nameplate on the motor for more information. IIRC,
there's a chart in the NEC that will allow him to determine LRC from that
data (worst case, from an engineering manual).

Might be as simple as a neutral
connection in the panel ... might not . My compressor draws a lot more than
his pump , never even notice it has started unless I hear ir running ...
which reminds me , I think I forgot to turn off the air last night when I
wrapped up nailing the floor joists on the new kitchen . Not a big deal
since I replaced all those leaky quick-couplers though ...

A sump pump SHOULD be on a dedicated circuit without GFCI protection.
The only other item on the circuit should be a "pilot" light -to
confirm there is power on the circuit at a glance.

On Wed, 30 Mar 2016 20:15:41 +0000 (UTC), danny burstein
wrote:

In Don Y writes:

Does your refrigerator, ACbrrrr, etc. cause similar flickering?
Did you notice similar behavior BEFORE replacing the pump?

Our refrigerator is a newer one from LG (which they stopped
making, grumble mumble) that uses a "ramp up" inverter
type motor. So it's quieter, more efficient, and doesn't
have a big start surge.

I do see it sometimes when the washing machine kerchunks.

The earlier Flotek model didn't have this issue but the
design was different.

Again, most people (outside of us here) wouldn't notice
these things.

- I know there's a market niche of "generator friendly"
well water pumps that are gentle when starting. Was hoping
someone here might have had suggestions for similar
sump pumps.

I use a "Watts Up? Pro". It would be able to monitor a 15A load
(it also has data logging and PC interface capabilities -- though
those may have been added to the KaW); not sure what the kill-a-watts
are capable of.

Well, my KAW's are a decade (!!!!) old (although I've picked
up some newer ones). I've noticed thay have some additional
(read, more pricey) models now. Maybe I'll take a look.
I'd be looking for something like a Crydom MCST1225ES softstart
module.Controlable frpm 100ms to 1 second ramp time using a simple
pot. 140 volt 25 amp rated.. To be on the safe side mabee go to the 50
amp rated MCST1250ES unit.

On Wed, 30 Mar 2016 19:45:43 +0000 (UTC), danny burstein
wrote:

It makes all the lights (to a first order observation) on
that leg of the feed (we have the US standard of two
hot leads coming in from the meter) do a mini blink. In
other words, not just that one circuit.

Besides putting that pump on a separate circuit as others have said, you
have an electrical problem. Sounds like one leg has a bad connection
inside or outside the house. Or even a weak pole transformer. Check the
cinnections in your breaker box, if they are all tight, cacll your power
company. If the problem is at the pole or where they enter outside your
home, they should fix that at no cost to you.

On 3/30/2016 1:15 PM, danny burstein wrote:
In Don Y writes:

Does your refrigerator, ACbrrrr, etc. cause similar flickering?
Did you notice similar behavior BEFORE replacing the pump?

Our refrigerator is a newer one from LG (which they stopped
making, grumble mumble) that uses a "ramp up" inverter
type motor. So it's quieter, more efficient, and doesn't
have a big start surge.

I do see it sometimes when the washing machine kerchunks.

What about furnace (GFA) blower?

The earlier Flotek model didn't have this issue but the
design was different.

Do you notice a difference if the pump kicks on with *no* water
(mechanical load) in the sump?

Again, most people (outside of us here) wouldn't notice
these things.

- I know there's a market niche of "generator friendly"
well water pumps that are gentle when starting. Was hoping
someone here might have had suggestions for similar
sump pumps.

So, you're not seeing a *dimming* (for seconds at a time -- i.e.,
the time the pump is running) but, rather, a BRIEF "flicker"?

I use a "Watts Up? Pro". It would be able to monitor a 15A load
(it also has data logging and PC interface capabilities -- though
those may have been added to the KaW); not sure what the kill-a-watts
are capable of.

Well, my KAW's are a decade (!!!!) old (although I've picked
up some newer ones). I've noticed thay have some additional
(read, more pricey) models now. Maybe I'll take a look.

It would be interesting to plug the monitor into an outlet
on the same circuit as the flickering lights and just watch
the *voltage* to see how much of a dip and how long.

[Though I don't know how fine-grained the measurement cycles are
on my unit; I've only used the logging ability to get an idea as
to how often the refrigerator (and, separately, furnace and freezer
chest) were cycling -- along with overall duty cycles.]

On Wednesday, March 30, 2016 at 5:02:36 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 30 Mar 2016 12:18:13 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 3/30/2016 5:56 AM, Terry Coombs wrote:
wrote:
On Wednesday, March 30, 2016 at 12:05:52 AM UTC-4, danny burstein
wrote:
It turned out we had a sump pit but no pump.. When we
discovered this the hard way five years ago, I picked
up a pedestle mount "drop in" Flotek brand 1/3 horsepower
unit, claiming 20 gpm, and it worked fine. Water was
pumped out through a 2 inch flxible gooseneck/corrugated
plastic pipe and out the window.

hmm, never measured the wattage, but at 1/3 HP it
should be comething like 300 watts.

(it has a base where the impeller is, then a three foot
post, with the motor on the top)

We just got around to installing a permanent pump
that's fully in the pit, and hooked up the wiring
and PVC plumping, etc.

It's also a 1/3 HP unit and is pumping out the water
just fine.

But... when it kicks on the lights dim out during
the starting surge.

Grumble. And with it operating at (very roughly)
a two minutes off, ten seconds on (the "on" time
will increase when more rain comes down) this
flicker is happening enough to be quite annoying.

Any suggestions for a sump pump with less of
a starting surge?

Any other options for reducing its effect on
the rest of the house?

Thanks for your help.

look for those small 1/8 or 1/6 HP pumps at Northern tool or Harbor
Freight etc.

These are good also becasue you can run them off a decent sized
inverter during a power failure.

Any motor will draw a surge when it starts. You would be better off
running a seperate circuit to the breaker panel for the pump.

Is it really effecting the whole house or just lights on the same
circuit?

A 1/3 hp motor shouldn't do that , the OP has an electrical problem that
needs to be diagnosed and repaired .

You can't unilaterally say that. At startup, the motor will draw it's locked
rotor current -- which can be 5-10X it's full load current. A 1/3HP motor
can easily see a locked rotor current of 15A or more.

The OP hasn't indicated what else might be on that circuit. Nor, how far
("electrically") it and the other affected loads (lights) are from the panel.

The OP can examine the nameplate on the motor for more information. IIRC,
there's a chart in the NEC that will allow him to determine LRC from that
data (worst case, from an engineering manual).

Might be as simple as a neutral
connection in the panel ... might not . My compressor draws a lot more than
his pump , never even notice it has started unless I hear ir running ...
which reminds me , I think I forgot to turn off the air last night when I
wrapped up nailing the floor joists on the new kitchen . Not a big deal
since I replaced all those leaky quick-couplers though ...

A sump pump SHOULD be on a dedicated circuit without GFCI protection.
The only other item on the circuit should be a "pilot" light -to
confirm there is power on the circuit at a glance.

If the sump pump is in an unfinished basement, then it must be on
a GFCI, assuming it's plugged into a receptacle.

If the sump pump is in an unfinished basement, then it must be on
a GFCI, assuming it's plugged into a receptacle.


Why ? ... mine is just as you described - but not on a gfci..
John T.


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

On Wednesday, March 30, 2016 at 6:31:50 PM UTC-4, wrote:

If the sump pump is in an unfinished basement, then it must be on
a GFCI, assuming it's plugged into a receptacle.


Why ? ... mine is just as you described - but not on a gfci..
John T.


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

National Electrical Code, which most places in the USA follow, says
all receptacles in an unfinished basement must be on GFCI.
It applies to new installations, so if yours is prior, it's OK.
But here the poster recommended a new circuit for the sump pump,
which would make it a requirement, unless locally they don't follow
NEC. But that isn't the solution to the OPs problem. He has dimming
lights and all the lights on that service leg are dimming. Something
is wrong at the panel, incoming service, etc.

On 3/30/2016 6:39 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, March 30, 2016 at 6:31:50 PM UTC-4, wrote:

If the sump pump is in an unfinished basement, then it must be on
a GFCI, assuming it's plugged into a receptacle.


Why ? ... mine is just as you described - but not on a gfci..
John T.


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

National Electrical Code, which most places in the USA follow, says
all receptacles in an unfinished basement must be on GFCI.
It applies to new installations, so if yours is prior, it's OK.
But here the poster recommended a new circuit for the sump pump,
which would make it a requirement, unless locally they don't follow
NEC. But that isn't the solution to the OPs problem. He has dimming
lights and all the lights on that service leg are dimming. Something
is wrong at the panel, incoming service, etc.


That may be code, but I'd not want it to trip erroneously when needed
most. GFCI have had false trips so they were not used on refrigerators
either, but I think that has been changed too.

On Wed, 30 Mar 2016 18:32:58 -0400, wrote:



If the sump pump is in an unfinished basement, then it must be on
a GFCI, assuming it's plugged into a receptacle.


Why ? ... mine is just as you described - but not on a gfci..
John T.


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---
If it is a "dedicated circuit" no GFCI is required. Mount the outlet
on the ceiling above the pump - single twist-lock outlet - and you are
golden for code.

I have seen a ton of homes with sump pumps, now thats a good thing.....

HOWEVER most of those homes were above street level.

so the owner could just use a gravity drain to daylight. although some digging will be necessary. but gravity tends to be highly reliable.

even if its just a overflow gravity drain to daylight, that a awesome thing. in a power failure or pump failure no flooding can occur

In bob haller writes:

I have seen a ton of homes with sump pumps, now thats a good thing.....

HOWEVER most of those homes were above street level.

Basement floor is poured concrete roughly 6 feet below grade.
The sump pit is roughly three feet further (farther?) down..


--
__________________________________________________ ___
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key

[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

On Wednesday, March 30, 2016 at 10:59:15 PM UTC-4, danny burstein wrote:
In bob haller writes:

I have seen a ton of homes with sump pumps, now thats a good thing.....

HOWEVER most of those homes were above street level.

Basement floor is poured concrete roughly 6 feet below grade.
The sump pit is roughly three feet further (farther?) down..


--

so is the street below the level of the basement? a overflow drain doesnt have to be below the bottomof the pit

On Wednesday, March 30, 2016 at 9:10:17 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 30 Mar 2016 18:32:58 -0400, wrote:



If the sump pump is in an unfinished basement, then it must be on
a GFCI, assuming it's plugged into a receptacle.


Why ? ... mine is just as you described - but not on a gfci..
John T.


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---
If it is a "dedicated circuit" no GFCI is required. Mount the outlet
on the ceiling above the pump - single twist-lock outlet - and you are
golden for code.

Wrong, at least here in the USA. Current NEC requires a GFCI for all
receptacles in an unfinished basement. But then you have me blocked
so you'll likely never learn. And if you believe otherwise, give us
the NEC reference that says so.

If the sump pump is in an unfinished basement, then it must be on
a GFCI, assuming it's plugged into a receptacle.


Why ? ... mine is just as you described - but not on a gfci..
John T.


If it is a "dedicated circuit" no GFCI is required. Mount the outlet
on the ceiling above the pump - single twist-lock outlet - and you are
golden for code.


Wrong, at least here in the USA. Current NEC requires a GFCI for all
receptacles in an unfinished basement. But then you have me blocked
so you'll likely never learn. And if you believe otherwise, give us
the NEC reference that says so.


I wonder what defines finished / unfinished ?
... and what that has to do with justifying the rule ?
John T.


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

To reduce the number of times the fully submersible or the pedestal pumps run, you need to adjust the float levels so the pumps do not start to run until the water level is about 5 - 12 inches below the top of the floor. When the pump does run with the float adjusted that way, it will run for a longer time, but the number of starts will be reduced, and the starting strain is usually what all sump pumps ultimately die from.

Unfortunately, it is not IF a pump will fail, but WHEN it will fail.

We have been in our house for exactly 50 years, and learned this the hard way. I now have two submersible pumps, with the floats set for two different levels, and, in case of a power failure, a water-powered pump set to turn on just before the water gets to the height of the lowest place in our basement which happens to be right next to the sump hole. Separate discharge/drain lines for all three pumps and reverse flow valves in each discharge line to keep any critters out that might choose to go up the pipes looking for a hospitable home.

I periodically remove power to the first pump and check to see that the second pump kicks on ok. It takes too long to wait for the water level to reach the trigger level of the water-powered pump, so that one requires me to manually lift the float to start it running. But, we now can put things in the basement without worrying about flooding. It will now take a power failure combined with a total loss of our municipal water supply and a failure of all three pumps and the discharge piping before we have a wet basement again.

On Thursday, March 31, 2016 at 10:11:35 AM UTC-4, wrote:

If the sump pump is in an unfinished basement, then it must be on
a GFCI, assuming it's plugged into a receptacle.


Why ? ... mine is just as you described - but not on a gfci..
John T.


If it is a "dedicated circuit" no GFCI is required. Mount the outlet
on the ceiling above the pump - single twist-lock outlet - and you are
golden for code.


Wrong, at least here in the USA. Current NEC requires a GFCI for all
receptacles in an unfinished basement. But then you have me blocked
so you'll likely never learn. And if you believe otherwise, give us
the NEC reference that says so.


I wonder what defines finished / unfinished ?
.. and what that has to do with justifying the rule ?
John T.


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

IDK how they have it defined, or if they have it defined. But I think
the intention is that if it's unfinished, it's essentially an open
space, cement floor, where one may be using it to work on stuff,
standing on the damp floor, using a shop vac to vacuum up water,
using a power drill, etc. Similar to a garage or outdoors. If it's
finished, then it's more like a regular living space.

On 03/31/2016 9:12 AM, wrote:
....

I wonder what defines finished / unfinished ?

"I know it when I see it..."

.. and what that has to do with justifying the rule ?
....

I think it's that it's presumed finished living space will be dry
whereas unfinished is presumed will be slab floor and quite possibly
damp such that is better chance of grounding path in case of accidental
contact.

Being an old fogey, I personally think the Code in general has become a
tool for the manufacturers to force new, more profitable product lines
into wider acceptance thus enhancing their bottom lines more than it is
of actual enhancements to safety or fire prevention.

--

On Thursday, March 31, 2016 at 11:00:19 AM UTC-4, wrote:
To reduce the number of times the fully submersible or the pedestal pumps run, you need to adjust the float levels so the pumps do not start to run until the water level is about 5 - 12 inches below the top of the floor. When the pump does run with the float adjusted that way, it will run for a longer time, but the number of starts will be reduced, and the starting strain is usually what all sump pumps ultimately die from.

Unfortunately, it is not IF a pump will fail, but WHEN it will fail.

We have been in our house for exactly 50 years, and learned this the hard way. I now have two submersible pumps, with the floats set for two different levels, and, in case of a power failure, a water-powered pump set to turn on just before the water gets to the height of the lowest place in our basement which happens to be right next to the sump hole. Separate discharge/drain lines for all three pumps and reverse flow valves in each discharge line to keep any critters out that might choose to go up the pipes looking for a hospitable home.

I periodically remove power to the first pump and check to see that the second pump kicks on ok. It takes too long to wait for the water level to reach the trigger level of the water-powered pump, so that one requires me to manually lift the float to start it running. But, we now can put things in the basement without worrying about flooding. It will now take a power failure combined with a total loss of our municipal water supply and a failure of all three pumps and the discharge piping before we have a wet basement again.

That's one of my beefs with condensate pumps for furnace/AC. They only
hold a very limited amount of water and probably a pint is enough to
cycle it. I had to replace the switch in a Little Giant that was only
two years old. Another problem is that many sump pumps, you can't
adjust the turn on/off. Looking for one that you can would be a good
idea before buying.

On 03/31/2016 10:15 AM, trader_4 wrote:
....

That's one of my beefs with condensate pumps for furnace/AC. They only
hold a very limited amount of water and probably a pint is enough to
cycle it. I had to replace the switch in a Little Giant that was only
two years old. ...

Hmmm, seems like it'd not be too difficult to increase the capacity (at
the expense of more footprint space, of course).

The one here was 30+ YO and still functional when we replaced system a
couple of years ago. Put in new one just on general principles so the
cycling hasn't seemed to be an issue; just luck of the draw on "infant"
mortality it would appear.

--

On 3/31/2016 11:15 AM, dpb wrote:

Being an old fogey, I personally think the Code in general has become a
tool for the manufacturers to force new, more profitable product lines
into wider acceptance thus enhancing their bottom lines more than it is
of actual enhancements to safety or fire prevention.

--


You're just cynical. Everyone knows it is to save the lives of
children. I'm a few months older than the official "baby boomer"
generation. Present generation is the "pansy, but safe", generation.

Gotta go. Have to lock up the aspirin and chain the cabinet under the
sink closed in case the grandkids visit.

In trader_4 writes:

That's one of my beefs with condensate pumps for furnace/AC. They only
hold a very limited amount of water and probably a pint is enough to
cycle it. I had to replace the switch in a Little Giant that was only
two years old. Another problem is that many sump pumps, you can't
adjust the turn on/off. Looking for one that you can would be a good
idea before buying.

That was one of the features I _loved_ about the "drop in"
Flotek brand unit we were using.

The base was resting on the bottom, under water, with
the impeller inside. There's a (numbers very rough) four
foot pedestle sticking up, with the motor on top.

The motor turned a rod which extended down to the impeller,
thus the motor was always above the water.

Anyway, the "on/off" switch was courtesy of a "float" which
hung down vertically from the motor head and slid through
some rings. There were clips on that rod which you could
set so that the "up/down" movement between "on/off" could
vary anywhere from an inch or so to about a foot and a half.

Simple to adjust with clear visibility...

--
__________________________________________________ ___
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key

[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

Being an old fogey, I personally think the Code in general has become a
tool for the manufacturers to force new, more profitable product lines
into wider acceptance thus enhancing their bottom lines more than it is
of actual enhancements to safety or fire prevention.

--

The republicans are for big buisness
The democrates are for big government

Passing more regulations that require us to by more stuff is one of the few
things they both agree on.

M

On 04/01/2016 4:03 PM, wrote:


Being an old fogey, I personally think the Code in general has become a
tool for the manufacturers to force new, more profitable product lines
into wider acceptance thus enhancing their bottom lines more than it is
of actual enhancements to safety or fire prevention.

--

The republicans are for big buisness
The democrates are for big government
....

The NEC Code is _NOT_ government-sponsored nor supported nor
written--it's output by the NFPA a nonprofit.

http://www.nfpa.org/about-nfpa

--

On Tuesday, March 29, 2016 at 11:05:52 PM UTC-5, danny burstein wrote:
It turned out we had a sump pit but no pump.. When we
discovered this the hard way five years ago, I picked
up a pedestle mount "drop in" Flotek brand 1/3 horsepower
unit, claiming 20 gpm, and it worked fine. Water was
pumped out through a 2 inch flxible gooseneck/corrugated
plastic pipe and out the window.

hmm, never measured the wattage, but at 1/3 HP it
should be comething like 300 watts.

(it has a base where the impeller is, then a three foot
post, with the motor on the top)

We just got around to installing a permanent pump
that's fully in the pit, and hooked up the wiring
and PVC plumping, etc.

It's also a 1/3 HP unit and is pumping out the water
just fine.

But... when it kicks on the lights dim out during
the starting surge.

Grumble. And with it operating at (very roughly)
a two minutes off, ten seconds on (the "on" time
will increase when more rain comes down) this
flicker is happening enough to be quite annoying.

Any suggestions for a sump pump with less of
a starting surge?

Any other options for reducing its effect on
the rest of the house?

Thanks for your help.




--
__________________________________________________ ___
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key

[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

Sump pumps of the same horsepower can have much different current draws.

For example, according to the documentation, the popular 1/3 hp Zoeller M53 uses 9.7 amps running and 25.9 amps starting. Where the Little Giant 6EN-CIA-SFS Model 506630 1/3 hp (with a PSC motor) uses 6 amps running and, I believe, approx. 12 amps starting. They are comparable in the GPMs they pump -- actually the Little Giant claims better.

I recently installed that Little Giant and have been pleased with its performance. I wanted a low current draw in case I needed to run off a small generator or battery-with-inverter. Little Giant recently released the 6EC version which has an even more efficient motor which uses 5 amps vs the 6EN series' 6 amps running.