On 01/31/2016 05:02 PM, trader_4 wrote:

[snip]

What socket has a shell? WTF?


Table lamps. My grandmother used to paint porcelain, and teach others.
Many of these were older people with cataracts in their eyes. That
requires a lot of lamps to see the fine detail.

BTW, she used an old porch that had been enclosed. There were no 120V
receptacles there except the one by the kiln. So, there were a lot of
(18 gauge) extension cords too.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Sunday School: A prison in which children do penance for the evil
conscience of their parents." [H.L. Mencken]

On Mon, 01 Feb 2016 11:45:13 -0500, wrote:


Yep, I still find it sort of amazing they even allowed such things.
Sure, the elec codes were much less than they are now, but they still
had codes and those live chassis were simply dangerous. At the very
minimum, they could have used polarized plugs, which would not have
added any cost to the device, since they had to install some sort of
plug anyhow.

The problem was the number of non polarized receptacles out there. The
3d house I lived in was built in 1953 and it did not have them. I
don't really remember 1-15s (polarized 2 wire) until after the 5-15 (3
wire) was available and used in commercial.

So you're saying those old two prong outlets did not have one wider than
the other? I thought they always did. I know I always worked with plenty
of them, but I'd have to look at one to be sure.

On Mon, 1 Feb 2016 08:17:58 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Sunday, January 31, 2016 at 10:11:47 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 19:42:19 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 1/31/2016 7:12 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 14:37:44 -0600, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 1/31/2016 11:06 AM, wrote:



Trader summed it up nicely. If you have the polarity swapped on your
toaster, the switch is opening the neutral and when you stick the fork
in there to get the bagel out, it will light you up.


That Stormin guy said much the same. The toaster
shell should either be isolated, or grounded.

I read once toaster shells aren't grounded because of
what could happen if people hit the heating element pushing
the toast down. Forks? Knives?



Could be isolated. I've never put a VOM on a
toaster, might do that some day for raw
excitement. My toaster has two wire cord and
plug, so the shell is probably isolated. Does
anyone have a three wire corded toaster to test?
With the possible exception of a commercial unit I don't think there
has been a grounded toaster sold in North America in over 40 years -
and I have NEVER seen one that was not isolated from the factory..
Some of the better ones even switched both wires years ago.

Does switching both wires increase the chance of GFCI's tripping?

I'm picturing a situation where there's a lag between the opening of hot
vs. the neutral. Wouldn't the GFCI sense that?
No and No

On Mon, 1 Feb 2016 12:41:24 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
Does switching both wires increase the chance of GFCI's tripping?

I'm picturing a situation where there's a lag between the opening of hot
vs. the neutral. Wouldn't the GFCI sense that?

Nope. Dr Kirchoff says the current in a circuit is equal everywhere if
there is only one path. When the first switch opens, the current
stops.

That is only for steady state. When a switch first opens or closes there
is a short time before the current reaches that point depending on how much
inductance or capacitance is in the circuit. As the electricity will travel
around the earth about 7 times in one second there is a small but usually
too small of a time for most simple circuits to mater.

I doubt that any GFCI or arc sense type of breaker would be designed fast
enough to detect that.


The balance will still be the same.

On Mon, 01 Feb 2016 12:25:52 -0600, wrote:

On Mon, 01 Feb 2016 11:45:13 -0500, wrote:


Yep, I still find it sort of amazing they even allowed such things.
Sure, the elec codes were much less than they are now, but they still
had codes and those live chassis were simply dangerous. At the very
minimum, they could have used polarized plugs, which would not have
added any cost to the device, since they had to install some sort of
plug anyhow.

The problem was the number of non polarized receptacles out there. The
3d house I lived in was built in 1953 and it did not have them. I
don't really remember 1-15s (polarized 2 wire) until after the 5-15 (3
wire) was available and used in commercial.

So you're saying those old two prong outlets did not have one wider than
the other? I thought they always did. I know I always worked with plenty
of them, but I'd have to look at one to be sure.

The early ones had the same size slots and some even had T slots that
would take a 1-15 and a 2-15. (the first house I lived in had those,
built pre wwII)
I would not be surprised if there are still some of them in the old
parts of our cities.

wrote:
On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 20:00:10 -0500, wrote:
On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 18:39:10 -0600, wrote:

I was probably around 14 years old when I got an old shortwave radio
which was probably made in the 40s.

There were plenty of "hot chassis" electronics made before the
transistors started showing up. I had a tv that would light you up if
a knob fell off and you touched the shaft. After a while I figured out
I should flip the plug. They may have had NEMA 1-15 receptacles but
the plugs were not.
Yep, I still find it sort of amazing they even allowed such things.
Sure, the elec codes were much less than they are now, but they still
had codes and those live chassis were simply dangerous. At the very
minimum, they could have used polarized plugs, which would not have
added any cost to the device, since they had to install some sort of
plug anyhow.
I wonder how many people died from electrocution back then? It's just
like I was talking to an old farmer who was my neighbor before he passed
away at the age of 90 something. He was telling me when he ran a hog
farm on that property (where he still lived). He constantly spoke about
hogs getting electrocuted. One day I got to see his barn, and I was
shocked at what I saw of the wiring in there. Wires with bare copper
exposed, switches and outlets just hanging by some wires (no box) with a
little electrical tape around the screws, lamp cord attached to stock
tank heaters, and so on.... UNBELIEVABLE!
After he died, the new owner of that farm cut the wires going to that
barn the same day he moved in. He had an electrician rewire the house
immediately. Eventually he had the barn and other sheds rewired too.
My new neighbor told me when he had to do rewiring in the attic he found the previous owner had put Band-Aids on some wires, instead of electrical tape.

--
Usenet Reader for Android
http://android.newsgroupstats.hk

On 2/1/2016 1:25 PM, wrote:


The problem was the number of non polarized receptacles out there. The
3d house I lived in was built in 1953 and it did not have them. I
don't really remember 1-15s (polarized 2 wire) until after the 5-15 (3
wire) was available and used in commercial.

So you're saying those old two prong outlets did not have one wider than
the other? I thought they always did. I know I always worked with plenty
of them, but I'd have to look at one to be sure.


My last house was built in 1949 and did not have them that I recall, but
I could be wrong. When I bought the house in 1966 I changed to grounded
3 prong.

I found this:
Homes built before the 1960’s had most of their original 125 V
receptacle outlets of the non-grounding type (2-prong) (see Fig. 14). In
1947, the Code first required grounding type (3-prong) receptacles for
the laundry. In 1956 the required use of grounding type receptacles was
extended to basements, garages, outdoors and other areas where a person
might be standing on ground. Finally, in 1962 the Code was revised to
require all branch circuits to include a grounding conductor or ground
path to which the grounding contacts of the receptacle must be
connected. That effectively discontinued the use of non-grounding type
receptacles except for replacement use in existing installations were a
grounding means might not exist.

These are the locations in and around the home when GFCIs were first
required:
1968 - Swimming Pool Underwater Lighting
1971 - Receptacles Near Swimming Pools
1973 - Outdoor Receptacles
1975 - Bathroom Receptacles
1978 - Garage Receptacles
1981 - Whirlpools and Tubs
1987 - Receptacles Near Kitchen Sinks
1990 - Receptacles in Unfinished Basements and Crawl Spaces
1993 - Receptacles Near Wet Bar Sinks
1996 - All Kitchen Counter-Top Receptacles
2005 - Receptacles Near Laundry and Utility Sinks

On Mon, 01 Feb 2016 12:25:52 -0600, wrote:

On Mon, 01 Feb 2016 11:45:13 -0500, wrote:


Yep, I still find it sort of amazing they even allowed such things.
Sure, the elec codes were much less than they are now, but they still
had codes and those live chassis were simply dangerous. At the very
minimum, they could have used polarized plugs, which would not have
added any cost to the device, since they had to install some sort of
plug anyhow.

The problem was the number of non polarized receptacles out there. The
3d house I lived in was built in 1953 and it did not have them. I
don't really remember 1-15s (polarized 2 wire) until after the 5-15 (3
wire) was available and used in commercial.

So you're saying those old two prong outlets did not have one wider than
the other? I thought they always did. I know I always worked with plenty
of them, but I'd have to look at one to be sure.
There were many made that did not have the wide slot for the
polarized plug, way back in the fifties and beyond.

dangerous dan posted for all of us...



While looking at this wall plug, I noticed it has a designated side for white wire, and a designated side for black wire. In the past I never saw that on a plug and just put it on whichever side was handy.

Is there a valid reason for putting a specific color wire on a specific side? I personally wouldn't think so, but maybe an electrician would know a reason, or someone more knowledgeable.

Did a lot of research on this didn't ya. I set where ya git yur name.

--
Tekkie

wrote:
dangerous dan posted for all of us...

While looking at this wall plug, I noticed it has a designated side for white wire, and a designated side for black wire. In the past I never saw that on a plug and just put it on whichever side was handy.

Is there a valid reason for putting a specific color wire on a specific side? I personally wouldn't think so, but maybe an electrician would know a reason, or someone more knowledgeable.
Did a lot of research on this didn't ya. I set where ya git yur name.
--
Tekkie

The only research I did was to ask a question on this group. Thanks to everyone who gave a genuine answer.

--
Usenet Reader for Android
http://android.newsgroupstats.hk

On 02/01/2016 01:30 PM, wrote:

[snip]

The early ones had the same size slots and some even had T slots that
would take a 1-15 and a 2-15. (the first house I lived in had those,
built pre wwII)
I would not be surprised if there are still some of them in the old
parts of our cities.

When my parents moved to Denton in 1967, they stayed in an old
apartment. The receptacles were duplex, but only one side was usable.
IIRC, one had T slots like you described, and the other just had
horizontal slots (both of them).

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Sunday School: A prison in which children do penance for the evil
conscience of their parents." [H.L. Mencken]

On Mon, 1 Feb 2016 18:28:19 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 02/01/2016 01:30 PM, wrote:

[snip]

The early ones had the same size slots and some even had T slots that
would take a 1-15 and a 2-15. (the first house I lived in had those,
built pre wwII)
I would not be surprised if there are still some of them in the old
parts of our cities.

When my parents moved to Denton in 1967, they stayed in an old
apartment. The receptacles were duplex, but only one side was usable.
IIRC, one had T slots like you described, and the other just had
horizontal slots (both of them).

Not as relevant, but the apartment I lived in in Brooklyn, which was
built as luxury in 1930 had non-remarkable duplex outlets in all the
other rooms, but in my room, which was meant to be the maid's room,
the receptacle was unisex, or unex, or whatever is not duplex. But
the slots were parallel and I don't remember if one was longer than
another. I would have replaced it but it had 5 or more coats of paint
after 40 years, and I thought I'd make a mess taking off the plate.

On Monday, February 1, 2016 at 12:38:19 PM UTC-5, Ralph Mowery wrote:
wrote in message
...
Does switching both wires increase the chance of GFCI's tripping?

I'm picturing a situation where there's a lag between the opening of hot
vs. the neutral. Wouldn't the GFCI sense that?

Nope. Dr Kirchoff says the current in a circuit is equal everywhere if
there is only one path. When the first switch opens, the current
stops.

That is only for steady state. When a switch first opens or closes there
is a short time before the current reaches that point depending on how much
inductance or capacitance is in the circuit. As the electricity will travel
around the earth about 7 times in one second there is a small but usually
too small of a time for most simple circuits to mater.

I doubt that any GFCI or arc sense type of breaker would be designed fast
enough to detect that.

Another way of looking at this would be if there would be a problem with
a race between two switches opening near simultaneously, one on the hot,
one on the neutral, then why isn't there a problem right now, where you
have only one switch opening, with no switch at all on the neutral? There
are also 240V GFCI where circuits can have a switch on each wire and
they don't trip. Like you say, the electrodynamics of any of those
effects are way below what a GFCI is looking at.

On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 20:31:36 -0700, Idlehands
wrote:

On 2016-01-31 8:11 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 19:42:19 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 1/31/2016 7:12 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 14:37:44 -0600, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 1/31/2016 11:06 AM, wrote:



Trader summed it up nicely. If you have the polarity swapped on your
toaster, the switch is opening the neutral and when you stick the fork
in there to get the bagel out, it will light you up.


That Stormin guy said much the same. The toaster
shell should either be isolated, or grounded.

I read once toaster shells aren't grounded because of
what could happen if people hit the heating element pushing
the toast down. Forks? Knives?



Could be isolated. I've never put a VOM on a
toaster, might do that some day for raw
excitement. My toaster has two wire cord and
plug, so the shell is probably isolated. Does
anyone have a three wire corded toaster to test?
With the possible exception of a commercial unit I don't think there
has been a grounded toaster sold in North America in over 40 years -
and I have NEVER seen one that was not isolated from the factory..
Some of the better ones even switched both wires years ago.


Years ago my mother complained about being shocked when doing dishes,
checking out the situation I found if a metal pan in the dish rack was
touching the toaster and you touch it and the sink you got zapped.
Using a meter there was 120V between the toaster and the sink,
non-polarized plug, reverse the plug and no problems.

Replaced the plug with a three prong to prevent reversing the plug.

We had an Emerson radio from the 40's. A chip was missing from the
case, and it sat on a metal set of shelves, so the chassis touched the
metal shelf. We also had chrome trim around the formica kitchen
counter (before they used formica in the front), and when I touched
both the shelf and the trim, I'd get a small tingle. (Nothing like a
full 110 volts. I've had that too.) My mother never mentioned this
and I was too stupid to figure out the problem or fix it.

I still have the radio. Maybe I should change the plug.

On Tue, 02 Feb 2016 14:02:17 -0500, Micky
wrote:



We had an Emerson radio from the 40's. A chip was missing from the
case, and it sat on a metal set of shelves, so the chassis touched the
metal shelf. We also had chrome trim around the formica kitchen
counter (before they used formica in the front), and when I touched
both the shelf and the trim, I'd get a small tingle. (Nothing like a
full 110 volts. I've had that too.) My mother never mentioned this
and I was too stupid to figure out the problem or fix it.

I still have the radio. Maybe I should change the plug.

They used to put a small capacitor and/or high value resistor between
the incoming power and the chassis. I can't remember why - maybe
someone here will know. It allowed a small current to flow which
would give you that tingling feeling if you lightly rubbed your
fingers across the chassis.

On Tue, 02 Feb 2016 14:02:17 -0500, Micky
wrote:


We had an Emerson radio from the 40's. A chip was missing from the
case, and it sat on a metal set of shelves, so the chassis touched the
metal shelf. We also had chrome trim around the formica kitchen
counter (before they used formica in the front), and when I touched
both the shelf and the trim, I'd get a small tingle. (Nothing like a
full 110 volts. I've had that too.) My mother never mentioned this
and I was too stupid to figure out the problem or fix it.

I still have the radio. Maybe I should change the plug.

Just put a polarized 1-15 on it and be sure the wide prong is
connected to the chassis side.

On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 00:56:32 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 1/31/2016 12:24 AM, dangerous dan wrote:
While looking at this wall plug, I noticed it has a designated side for
white wire, and a designated side for black wire. In the past I never
saw that on a plug and just put it on whichever side was handy.
Is there a valid reason for putting a specific color wire on a specific
side? I personally wouldn't think so, but maybe an electrician would
know a reason, or someone more knowledgeable.


Plugs should be polarized for proper grounding of appliances plugged
into the receptacle. You will also notice that plugs have one prong
larger to mate with the wider slot of the receptacle to everything is
properly polarized. Small prong is hot, wide is the neutral. Yes, your
lamp will light either way but you toaster may shock you if not properly
grounded.

If you look at lamp cords you will notice that one side looks a bit
different than the other side, usually ribbed. That is so if you splice
it or put a new end you can get it right. Smooth is the hot side, ribbed
is neutral.


I thought the ribbed was for Her pleasure?

On Tuesday, February 2, 2016 at 3:36:35 PM UTC-5, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 00:56:32 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 1/31/2016 12:24 AM, dangerous dan wrote:
While looking at this wall plug, I noticed it has a designated side for
white wire, and a designated side for black wire. In the past I never
saw that on a plug and just put it on whichever side was handy.
Is there a valid reason for putting a specific color wire on a specific
side? I personally wouldn't think so, but maybe an electrician would
know a reason, or someone more knowledgeable.


Plugs should be polarized for proper grounding of appliances plugged
into the receptacle. You will also notice that plugs have one prong
larger to mate with the wider slot of the receptacle to everything is
properly polarized. Small prong is hot, wide is the neutral. Yes, your
lamp will light either way but you toaster may shock you if not properly
grounded.

If you look at lamp cords you will notice that one side looks a bit
different than the other side, usually ribbed. That is so if you splice
it or put a new end you can get it right. Smooth is the hot side, ribbed
is neutral.


I thought the ribbed was for Her pleasure?

I wear them inside out so they are ripped for *my* pleasure.

posted for all of us...



On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 11:31:52 -0800 (PST), bob haller
wrote:

Ibelieve some of this goes back to the AM radio days, when
tranformless radios first started appearing on store shelves.

one side was hot, the other side connected to the radios case,
which worked fine with the transformer isolating the outside
case.

no transformer no isolation ZAP

I was probably around 14 years old when I got an old shortwave radio
which was probably made in the 40s. It had a metal case, which was
isolated from the metal chassis buy some rubber grommets. There was no
transformer. Those grommets had become brittle and the case was in
direct contact to that chassis.

Shortwave radios need an antenna and have a ground screw that needs to
be grounded to complete the antenna. I rigged up a piece of wire
outdoors, ran it to a tree for an antenna. Then I connected a piece of
wire from the GROUND screw to the screw holding the cover on the wall
outlet. The cord on that radio was obviously wired backwards. When I
plugged the radio in, that thin piece of wire I used for a ground wire,
instantly went up in smoke, and since it was right by the outlet where I
was plugging in the radio, that red hot wire fell on my hand and burned
right into my skin, before it blew the house fuse. I had burned deep
into my hand, leaving the melted insulation enbedded in my hand. That
was very painful.

My father was really ****ed off about it and after taking me to the
hospital, he said I could not play with electricity anymore. His brother
(my uncle) was an electrician. He looked at that radio and showed me
what was wrong. He wired it properly with a grounded cord, and told me
to replace those grommets before I ever consider plugging it in again.
I did that, and after my father calmed down (I think my uncle talked to
my father about it). When I tried the radio again, it worked fine.

That was a hard lesson to learn. But it could have been worse if a fire
had started. There was always a small reminder, because that wire left a
burn mark in the linoleum below that outlet, and another burn in the
wooden table the radio was on. (The outlet cover plate had to be
replaced since it was all charred too. My uncle did that, and might have
replaced the outlet too).

I still have that radio, even though I have not used it in years. It
brings back good memories of my youth and bad memories of that incident,
but a BIG LESSON in electrical safety.

Hey Oren, this is how Homo Gay got his electroshock treatments.

--
Tekkie

DerbyDad03 posted for all of us...



On Tuesday, February 2, 2016 at 3:36:35 PM UTC-5, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 00:56:32 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 1/31/2016 12:24 AM, dangerous dan wrote:
While looking at this wall plug, I noticed it has a designated side for
white wire, and a designated side for black wire. In the past I never
saw that on a plug and just put it on whichever side was handy.
Is there a valid reason for putting a specific color wire on a specific
side? I personally wouldn't think so, but maybe an electrician would
know a reason, or someone more knowledgeable.


Plugs should be polarized for proper grounding of appliances plugged
into the receptacle. You will also notice that plugs have one prong
larger to mate with the wider slot of the receptacle to everything is
properly polarized. Small prong is hot, wide is the neutral. Yes, your
lamp will light either way but you toaster may shock you if not properly
grounded.

If you look at lamp cords you will notice that one side looks a bit
different than the other side, usually ribbed. That is so if you splice
it or put a new end you can get it right. Smooth is the hot side, ribbed
is neutral.


I thought the ribbed was for Her pleasure?

I wear them inside out so they are ripped for *my* pleasure.

I use radial reinforced.

--
Tekkie

On Tue, 2 Feb 2016 13:04:53 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Tuesday, February 2, 2016 at 3:36:35 PM UTC-5, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 00:56:32 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 1/31/2016 12:24 AM, dangerous dan wrote:
While looking at this wall plug, I noticed it has a designated side for
white wire, and a designated side for black wire. In the past I never
saw that on a plug and just put it on whichever side was handy.
Is there a valid reason for putting a specific color wire on a specific
side? I personally wouldn't think so, but maybe an electrician would
know a reason, or someone more knowledgeable.


Plugs should be polarized for proper grounding of appliances plugged
into the receptacle. You will also notice that plugs have one prong
larger to mate with the wider slot of the receptacle to everything is
properly polarized. Small prong is hot, wide is the neutral. Yes, your
lamp will light either way but you toaster may shock you if not properly
grounded.

If you look at lamp cords you will notice that one side looks a bit
different than the other side, usually ribbed. That is so if you splice
it or put a new end you can get it right. Smooth is the hot side, ribbed
is neutral.


I thought the ribbed was for Her pleasure?

I wear them inside out so they are ripped for *my* pleasure.
If they are "ripped" there may be more than pleasure - - - but for
the wire insulation jacket it's a different kind of "RIB" - more of a
"ridge"

On Tue, 02 Feb 2016 15:24:17 -0500, wrote:

On Tue, 02 Feb 2016 14:02:17 -0500, Micky
wrote:


We had an Emerson radio from the 40's. A chip was missing from the
case, and it sat on a metal set of shelves, so the chassis touched the
metal shelf. We also had chrome trim around the formica kitchen
counter (before they used formica in the front), and when I touched
both the shelf and the trim, I'd get a small tingle. (Nothing like a
full 110 volts. I've had that too.) My mother never mentioned this
and I was too stupid to figure out the problem or fix it.

I still have the radio. Maybe I should change the plug.

Just put a polarized 1-15 on it and be sure the wide prong is
connected to the chassis side.

Seems like a good idea. OTOH, it will deprive the next owner of the
exciting electrical experiences people used to have.