A family member's house was completely rewired in 2011 and has arc-fault
breakers for the bedrooms. One of those breakers will not hold in at
all, even with nothing plugged into any of the outlets.

Is substituting a replacement breaker the most appropriate first step,
or is there something else to try first?

Perce

On 12/22/15 4:39 PM, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
A family member's house was completely rewired in 2011 and has
arc-fault breakers for the bedrooms. One of those breakers will not
hold in at all, even with nothing plugged into any of the outlets.

Is substituting a replacement breaker the most appropriate first step,
or is there something else to try first?

Perce


Swapping breakers with a different circuit might be a first step.

Turn off both breakers ( and/or main breaker), swap the 2 black wires.
See if problem
follows the wire/circuit, or the breaker.

On Tue, 22 Dec 2015 16:39:41 -0500, "Percival P. Cassidy"
wrote:

A family member's house was completely rewired in 2011 and has arc-fault
breakers for the bedrooms. One of those breakers will not hold in at
all, even with nothing plugged into any of the outlets.

Is substituting a replacement breaker the most appropriate first step,
or is there something else to try first?

Perce

Swapping with a working one may be the easiest first step.

Then I would use a meter to verify there is no continuity between the
white and black wires, disconnected from the breaker to ground.

On 12/22/15 5:26 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 22 Dec 2015 16:39:41 -0500, "Percival P. Cassidy"
wrote:

A family member's house was completely rewired in 2011 and has arc-fault
breakers for the bedrooms. One of those breakers will not hold in at
all, even with nothing plugged into any of the outlets.

Is substituting a replacement breaker the most appropriate first step,
or is there something else to try first?

Perce

Swapping with a working one may be the easiest first step.

Then I would use a meter to verify there is no continuity between the
white and black wires, disconnected from the breaker to ground.


Before testing with meter, be sure to disconnect any loads plugged
into the circuit at outlets, and any light switches to off position.

On Tue, 22 Dec 2015 17:18:26 -0500, Retired wrote:

On 12/22/15 4:39 PM, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
A family member's house was completely rewired in 2011 and has
arc-fault breakers for the bedrooms. One of those breakers will not
hold in at all, even with nothing plugged into any of the outlets.

Is substituting a replacement breaker the most appropriate first step,
or is there something else to try first?

Perce


Swapping breakers with a different circuit might be a first step.

Turn off both breakers ( and/or main breaker), swap the 2 black wires.
See if problem
follows the wire/circuit, or the breaker.

Better swap the white wires too or you will have 2 bad circuits ;-)

On Tuesday, December 22, 2015 at 4:58:03 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Tue, 22 Dec 2015 17:18:26 -0500, Retired wrote:

On 12/22/15 4:39 PM, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
A family member's house was completely rewired in 2011 and has
arc-fault breakers for the bedrooms. One of those breakers will not
hold in at all, even with nothing plugged into any of the outlets.

Is substituting a replacement breaker the most appropriate first step,
or is there something else to try first?

Perce


Swapping breakers with a different circuit might be a first step.

Turn off both breakers ( and/or main breaker), swap the 2 black wires.
See if problem
follows the wire/circuit, or the breaker.

Better swap the white wires too or you will have 2 bad circuits ;-)

Why not just disconnect the hot wire from the breaker then see if it holds? Š™.˜‰

[8~{} Uncle Hot Monster

On 12/22/15 5:57 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 22 Dec 2015 17:18:26 -0500, Retired wrote:

On 12/22/15 4:39 PM, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
A family member's house was completely rewired in 2011 and has
arc-fault breakers for the bedrooms. One of those breakers will not
hold in at all, even with nothing plugged into any of the outlets.

Is substituting a replacement breaker the most appropriate first step,
or is there something else to try first?

Perce


Swapping breakers with a different circuit might be a first step.

Turn off both breakers ( and/or main breaker), swap the 2 black wires.
See if problem
follows the wire/circuit, or the breaker.

Better swap the white wires too or you will have 2 bad circuits ;-)

OOPS ! Forgot that AFCIs switch/break the Neutral/white also. :-(

On Tue, 22 Dec 2015 17:51:43 -0500, Retired wrote:

On 12/22/15 5:26 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 22 Dec 2015 16:39:41 -0500, "Percival P. Cassidy"
wrote:

A family member's house was completely rewired in 2011 and has arc-fault
breakers for the bedrooms. One of those breakers will not hold in at
all, even with nothing plugged into any of the outlets.

Is substituting a replacement breaker the most appropriate first step,
or is there something else to try first?

Perce

Swapping with a working one may be the easiest first step.

Then I would use a meter to verify there is no continuity between the
white and black wires, disconnected from the breaker to ground.


Before testing with meter, be sure to disconnect any loads plugged
into the circuit at outlets, and any light switches to off position.

There still be no continuity to ground, with everything on. That is
what trips the GFP portion of an AFCI. Anything less than about 4k
ohms total will do it. (30ma)

A family member's house was completely rewired in 2011 and has arc-fault
breakers for the bedrooms. One of those breakers will not hold in at
all, even with nothing plugged into any of the outlets.

Is substituting a replacement breaker the most appropriate first step,
or is there something else to try first?

Perce

The AFCI is probably just doing its job. Swapping a new AFCI is a simple step, but you will probably still have the same problem. In addition to offering arc fault protection, the AFCI also has 30ma ground fault protection.

I had an AFCI problem this past summer in a basement wired by the the homeowners. In addition to multiple code violations, they used barb wire staples on the wiring instead of cable staples. One circuit I could not clear. I disconnected all of the wiring from devices and splices and pulled out as many staples as I could, but it still would not clear. I started cutting the line back until it cleared about 6' from the main electrical panel. I refed the circuit from that 6' mark and prayed. The AFCI held and continue to stay on with everything reconnected.

When an AFCI trips it blinks a number of times to indicate what caused it to trip. Do you have the AFCI instructions to interpret the blinks?

I think that you need to open up the outlets, lights, and switches on that particular circuit and check for loose connections as your first step in troubleshooting this problem.

John Grabowski
http://www.MrElectrician.TV

"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote in message
...

A family member's house was completely rewired in 2011 and has arc-fault
breakers for the bedrooms. One of those breakers will not hold in at
all, even with nothing plugged into any of the outlets.

Is substituting a replacement breaker the most appropriate first step,
or is there something else to try first?

Perce

# 1 before disconnecting anything check for Voltage between
Neutral and Ground, there should "NOT" be any voltage,
then check Voltage between Hot and Ground which it should be same
as: between hot and neutral, if either one is off you got wiring problem,
get the people who did original wiring to corrected.
The receptacle should have silver screw for neutral white wire.
and bras for hot black wire,
Do "NOT" switch this two.

On 12/22/2015 8:18 PM, Tony944 wrote:

The receptacle should have silver screw for neutral white wire.
and bras for hot black wire,
Do "NOT" switch this two.

Once in a while, a simple typo is funny. This
is such a moment. I'll go stick a hot black
wire in my wife's bra.

Bras for hot black wire, eh?

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 12/22/2015 2:39 PM, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
A family member's house was completely rewired in 2011 and has arc-fault
breakers for the bedrooms. One of those breakers will not hold in at all, even
with nothing plugged into any of the outlets.

Is substituting a replacement breaker the most appropriate first step, or is
there something else to try first?

Are you sure there's nothing *else* on the outlet circuit?
E.g., light in closet, etc.?

And, does the breaker feel "limp" as you try to set it? Or,
does it feel right (stiff) but trip just as it "sets"?

On 12/22/2015 08:17 PM, John G wrote:

A family member's house was completely rewired in 2011 and has arc-fault
breakers for the bedrooms. One of those breakers will not hold in at
all, even with nothing plugged into any of the outlets.

Is substituting a replacement breaker the most appropriate first step,
or is there something else to try first?

The AFCI is probably just doing its job. Swapping a new AFCI is a simple step, but you will probably still have the same problem. In addition to offering arc fault protection, the AFCI also has 30ma ground fault protection.

I had an AFCI problem this past summer in a basement wired by the the homeowners. In addition to multiple code violations, they used barb wire staples on the wiring instead of cable staples. One circuit I could not clear. I disconnected all of the wiring from devices and splices and pulled out as many staples as I could, but it still would not clear. I started cutting the line back until it cleared about 6' from the main electrical panel. I refed the circuit from that 6' mark and prayed. The AFCI held and continue to stay on with everything reconnected.

When an AFCI trips it blinks a number of times to indicate what caused it to trip. Do you have the AFCI instructions to interpret the blinks?

I think that you need to open up the outlets, lights, and switches on that particular circuit and check for loose connections as your first step in troubleshooting this problem.

I haven't yet set eyes on the breaker in question: I've seen only a
cell-phone photograph of it. It's a CH breaker with a "Test" button but
no indicator light. Looking on line, I see some CH AFCI breakers that
appear to have an indicator light and some that do not.

I am hoping I can set up a time to go there tomorrow and see what I can
find out. I'll start by disconnecting the black from the breaker and see
whether it still refuses to hold in.

Perce

On Tue, 22 Dec 2015 21:00:20 -0500, "Percival P. Cassidy"
wrote:

On 12/22/2015 08:17 PM, John G wrote:

A family member's house was completely rewired in 2011 and has arc-fault
breakers for the bedrooms. One of those breakers will not hold in at
all, even with nothing plugged into any of the outlets.

Is substituting a replacement breaker the most appropriate first step,
or is there something else to try first?

The AFCI is probably just doing its job. Swapping a new AFCI is a simple step, but you will probably still have the same problem. In addition to offering arc fault protection, the AFCI also has 30ma ground fault protection.

I had an AFCI problem this past summer in a basement wired by the the homeowners. In addition to multiple code violations, they used barb wire staples on the wiring instead of cable staples. One circuit I could not clear. I disconnected all of the wiring from devices and splices and pulled out as many staples as I could, but it still would not clear. I started cutting the line back until it cleared about 6' from the main electrical panel. I refed the circuit from that 6' mark and prayed. The AFCI held and continue to stay on with everything reconnected.

When an AFCI trips it blinks a number of times to indicate what caused it to trip. Do you have the AFCI instructions to interpret the blinks?

I think that you need to open up the outlets, lights, and switches on that particular circuit and check for loose connections as your first step in troubleshooting this problem.

I haven't yet set eyes on the breaker in question: I've seen only a
cell-phone photograph of it. It's a CH breaker with a "Test" button but
no indicator light. Looking on line, I see some CH AFCI breakers that
appear to have an indicator light and some that do not.

I am hoping I can set up a time to go there tomorrow and see what I can
find out. I'll start by disconnecting the black from the breaker and see
whether it still refuses to hold in.

Perce

You can trip an AFCI on a sub panel, even with no load on that circuit
and the black wire disconnected if you have a ground/neutral fault.
(you are still seeing the voltage drop on the feeder)

In John's example, I bet he would have seen continuity between one of
those conductor and ground. If you are not sensing an over current, it
is usually the neutral.
If you can see this on a meter, your trouble shooting is easier than
just easter egging random boxes and ripping out walls.,

On 12/22/2015 09:00 PM, I wrote:

A family member's house was completely rewired in 2011 and has arc-fault
breakers for the bedrooms. One of those breakers will not hold in at
all, even with nothing plugged into any of the outlets.

Is substituting a replacement breaker the most appropriate first step,
or is there something else to try first?

The AFCI is probably just doing its job. Swapping a new AFCI is a
simple step, but you will probably still have the same problem. In
addition to offering arc fault protection, the AFCI also has 30ma
ground fault protection.

I had an AFCI problem this past summer in a basement wired by the the
homeowners. In addition to multiple code violations, they used barb
wire staples on the wiring instead of cable staples. One circuit I
could not clear. I disconnected all of the wiring from devices and
splices and pulled out as many staples as I could, but it still would
not clear. I started cutting the line back until it cleared about 6'
from the main electrical panel. I refed the circuit from that 6' mark
and prayed. The AFCI held and continue to stay on with everything
reconnected.

When an AFCI trips it blinks a number of times to indicate what caused
it to trip. Do you have the AFCI instructions to interpret the blinks?

I think that you need to open up the outlets, lights, and switches on
that particular circuit and check for loose connections as your first
step in troubleshooting this problem.

I haven't yet set eyes on the breaker in question: I've seen only a
cell-phone photograph of it. It's a CH breaker with a "Test" button but
no indicator light. Looking on line, I see some CH AFCI breakers that
appear to have an indicator light and some that do not.

I am hoping I can set up a time to go there tomorrow and see what I can
find out. I'll start by disconnecting the black from the breaker and see
whether it still refuses to hold in.

And I just noticed that in the photograph his breakers have "PWD" on the
handle whereas ours have "SWD". What's the significance of that?

Perce

On Tue, 22 Dec 2015 21:36:13 -0500, "Percival P. Cassidy"
wrote:

On 12/22/2015 09:00 PM, I wrote:

A family member's house was completely rewired in 2011 and has arc-fault
breakers for the bedrooms. One of those breakers will not hold in at
all, even with nothing plugged into any of the outlets.

Is substituting a replacement breaker the most appropriate first step,
or is there something else to try first?

The AFCI is probably just doing its job. Swapping a new AFCI is a
simple step, but you will probably still have the same problem. In
addition to offering arc fault protection, the AFCI also has 30ma
ground fault protection.

I had an AFCI problem this past summer in a basement wired by the the
homeowners. In addition to multiple code violations, they used barb
wire staples on the wiring instead of cable staples. One circuit I
could not clear. I disconnected all of the wiring from devices and
splices and pulled out as many staples as I could, but it still would
not clear. I started cutting the line back until it cleared about 6'
from the main electrical panel. I refed the circuit from that 6' mark
and prayed. The AFCI held and continue to stay on with everything
reconnected.

When an AFCI trips it blinks a number of times to indicate what caused
it to trip. Do you have the AFCI instructions to interpret the blinks?

I think that you need to open up the outlets, lights, and switches on
that particular circuit and check for loose connections as your first
step in troubleshooting this problem.

I haven't yet set eyes on the breaker in question: I've seen only a
cell-phone photograph of it. It's a CH breaker with a "Test" button but
no indicator light. Looking on line, I see some CH AFCI breakers that
appear to have an indicator light and some that do not.

I am hoping I can set up a time to go there tomorrow and see what I can
find out. I'll start by disconnecting the black from the breaker and see
whether it still refuses to hold in.

And I just noticed that in the photograph his breakers have "PWD" on the
handle whereas ours have "SWD". What's the significance of that?

Perce


SWD is switching duty (you can use it like a switch)
Not sure about PWD

Here is the marking guide, maybe you will have better luck ;-)

http://ul.com/wp-content/uploads/201...BreakersMG.pdf

On 12/22/2015 8:36 PM, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
On 12/22/2015 09:00 PM, I wrote:

A family member's house was completely rewired in 2011 and has
arc-fault
breakers for the bedrooms. One of those breakers will not hold in at
all, even with nothing plugged into any of the outlets.

Is substituting a replacement breaker the most appropriate first step,
or is there something else to try first?

The AFCI is probably just doing its job. Swapping a new AFCI is a
simple step, but you will probably still have the same problem. In
addition to offering arc fault protection, the AFCI also has 30ma
ground fault protection.

I had an AFCI problem this past summer in a basement wired by the the
homeowners. In addition to multiple code violations, they used barb
wire staples on the wiring instead of cable staples. One circuit I
could not clear. I disconnected all of the wiring from devices and
splices and pulled out as many staples as I could, but it still would
not clear. I started cutting the line back until it cleared about 6'
from the main electrical panel. I refed the circuit from that 6' mark
and prayed. The AFCI held and continue to stay on with everything
reconnected.

When an AFCI trips it blinks a number of times to indicate what caused
it to trip. Do you have the AFCI instructions to interpret the blinks?

I think that you need to open up the outlets, lights, and switches on
that particular circuit and check for loose connections as your first
step in troubleshooting this problem.

I haven't yet set eyes on the breaker in question: I've seen only a
cell-phone photograph of it. It's a CH breaker with a "Test" button but
no indicator light. Looking on line, I see some CH AFCI breakers that
appear to have an indicator light and some that do not.

I am hoping I can set up a time to go there tomorrow and see what I can
find out. I'll start by disconnecting the black from the breaker and see
whether it still refuses to hold in.

And I just noticed that in the photograph his breakers have "PWD" on the
handle whereas ours have "SWD". What's the significance of that?

Perce


"SWD" on a breaker just basically means that it is used as a switch. PWD
normally stands for "pulse-width-discriminator circuit" but I have no
idea what exactly it means when seen on a circuit breaker.

A family member's house was completely rewired in 2011 and has arc-fault
breakers for the bedrooms. One of those breakers will not hold in at
all, even with nothing plugged into any of the outlets.

Is substituting a replacement breaker the most appropriate first step,
or is there something else to try first?

The AFCI is probably just doing its job. Swapping a new AFCI is a simple step, but you will probably still have the same problem. In addition to offering arc fault protection, the AFCI also has 30ma ground fault protection.

I had an AFCI problem this past summer in a basement wired by the the homeowners. In addition to multiple code violations, they used barb wire staples on the wiring instead of cable staples. One circuit I could not clear. I disconnected all of the wiring from devices and splices and pulled out as many staples as I could, but it still would not clear. I started cutting the line back until it cleared about 6' from the main electrical panel.. I refed the circuit from that 6' mark and prayed. The AFCI held and continue to stay on with everything reconnected.

When an AFCI trips it blinks a number of times to indicate what caused it to trip. Do you have the AFCI instructions to interpret the blinks?

I think that you need to open up the outlets, lights, and switches on that particular circuit and check for loose connections as your first step in troubleshooting this problem.

I haven't yet set eyes on the breaker in question: I've seen only a
cell-phone photograph of it. It's a CH breaker with a "Test" button but
no indicator light. Looking on line, I see some CH AFCI breakers that
appear to have an indicator light and some that do not.

I am hoping I can set up a time to go there tomorrow and see what I can
find out. I'll start by disconnecting the black from the breaker and see
whether it still refuses to hold in.

Perce

You can trip an AFCI on a sub panel, even with no load on that circuit
and the black wire disconnected if you have a ground/neutral fault.
(you are still seeing the voltage drop on the feeder)

In John's example, I bet he would have seen continuity between one of
those conductor and ground. If you are not sensing an over current, it
is usually the neutral.
If you can see this on a meter, your trouble shooting is easier than
just easter egging random boxes and ripping out walls.,


GFRE that was the odd thing. I did check continuity with my Fluke VOM and there was nothing to indicate a short between conductors. The blinking indicator light for that particular breaker identified a ground fault so I expected to see even the slightest bit of leakage, but there was nothing. In this particular instance, the breaker did not trip immediately. Initially it would trip after several minutes. When I started disconnecting everything the time to trip became longer. It wasn't until I replaced a 25' section of the circuit wire that the problem went away. I looked closely at the old removed wire and could not see anything wrong.

I have nothing to support this, but I think that the use of barb wire staples, which had a coarse galvanized finished surface played a part in this dilemma.

On Wed, 23 Dec 2015 04:47:03 -0800 (PST), John G
wrote:

GFRE that was the odd thing. I did check continuity with my Fluke VOM and there was nothing to indicate a short between conductors. The blinking indicator light for that particular breaker identified a ground fault so I expected to see even the slightest bit of leakage, but there was nothing. In this particular instance, the breaker did not trip immediately. Initially it would trip after several minutes. When I started disconnecting everything the time to trip became longer. It wasn't until I replaced a 25' section of the circuit wire that the problem went away. I looked closely at the old removed wire and could not see anything wrong.

I have nothing to support this, but I think that the use of barb wire staples, which had a coarse galvanized finished surface played a part in this dilemma.

I am surprised you would not see some continuity between ground and
the black or white wire.

On 12/22/2015 09:36 PM, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:

A family member's house was completely rewired in 2011 and has
arc-fault
breakers for the bedrooms. One of those breakers will not hold in at
all, even with nothing plugged into any of the outlets.

Is substituting a replacement breaker the most appropriate first step,
or is there something else to try first?

The AFCI is probably just doing its job. Swapping a new AFCI is a
simple step, but you will probably still have the same problem. In
addition to offering arc fault protection, the AFCI also has 30ma
ground fault protection.

I had an AFCI problem this past summer in a basement wired by the the
homeowners. In addition to multiple code violations, they used barb
wire staples on the wiring instead of cable staples. One circuit I
could not clear. I disconnected all of the wiring from devices and
splices and pulled out as many staples as I could, but it still would
not clear. I started cutting the line back until it cleared about 6'
from the main electrical panel. I refed the circuit from that 6' mark
and prayed. The AFCI held and continue to stay on with everything
reconnected.

When an AFCI trips it blinks a number of times to indicate what caused
it to trip. Do you have the AFCI instructions to interpret the blinks?

I think that you need to open up the outlets, lights, and switches on
that particular circuit and check for loose connections as your first
step in troubleshooting this problem.

I haven't yet set eyes on the breaker in question: I've seen only a
cell-phone photograph of it. It's a CH breaker with a "Test" button but
no indicator light. Looking on line, I see some CH AFCI breakers that
appear to have an indicator light and some that do not.

I am hoping I can set up a time to go there tomorrow and see what I can
find out. I'll start by disconnecting the black from the breaker and see
whether it still refuses to hold in.

And I just noticed that in the photograph his breakers have "PWD" on the
handle whereas ours have "SWD". What's the significance of that?

Correction: he didn't send me the cell-phone picture, but I thought it
looked like "PWD" when he showed it to me. In fact it was "SWD" after I
cleaned off the dirt, the same as ours.

First surprise when I got there is that there is no Main Breaker: The
feed from the meter goes directly to the bus bars with no intervening
breaker -- so I had to do everything in a "hot" box.

The breaker tripped even with the black disconnected, so I replaced it
-- after checking, with everything unplugged, the resistance of the
circuit it had been feeding: 10MegOhms. All is now well, and the new
breaker has both a red "Tripped" flag and an LED indicator.

Next to the panel was a duplex GFCI outlet showing a red indicator
light, but although it would neither reset nor trip using the Test
button it was "live," so I replaced that as well.

Perce

A family member's house was completely rewired in 2011 and has
arc-fault
breakers for the bedrooms. One of those breakers will not hold in at
all, even with nothing plugged into any of the outlets.

Is substituting a replacement breaker the most appropriate first step,
or is there something else to try first?

The AFCI is probably just doing its job. Swapping a new AFCI is a
simple step, but you will probably still have the same problem. In
addition to offering arc fault protection, the AFCI also has 30ma
ground fault protection.

I had an AFCI problem this past summer in a basement wired by the the
homeowners. In addition to multiple code violations, they used barb
wire staples on the wiring instead of cable staples. One circuit I
could not clear. I disconnected all of the wiring from devices and
splices and pulled out as many staples as I could, but it still would
not clear. I started cutting the line back until it cleared about 6'
from the main electrical panel. I refed the circuit from that 6' mark
and prayed. The AFCI held and continue to stay on with everything
reconnected.

When an AFCI trips it blinks a number of times to indicate what caused
it to trip. Do you have the AFCI instructions to interpret the blinks?

I think that you need to open up the outlets, lights, and switches on
that particular circuit and check for loose connections as your first
step in troubleshooting this problem.

I haven't yet set eyes on the breaker in question: I've seen only a
cell-phone photograph of it. It's a CH breaker with a "Test" button but
no indicator light. Looking on line, I see some CH AFCI breakers that
appear to have an indicator light and some that do not.

I am hoping I can set up a time to go there tomorrow and see what I can
find out. I'll start by disconnecting the black from the breaker and see
whether it still refuses to hold in.

And I just noticed that in the photograph his breakers have "PWD" on the
handle whereas ours have "SWD". What's the significance of that?

Correction: he didn't send me the cell-phone picture, but I thought it
looked like "PWD" when he showed it to me. In fact it was "SWD" after I
cleaned off the dirt, the same as ours.

First surprise when I got there is that there is no Main Breaker: The
feed from the meter goes directly to the bus bars with no intervening
breaker -- so I had to do everything in a "hot" box.

The breaker tripped even with the black disconnected, so I replaced it
-- after checking, with everything unplugged, the resistance of the
circuit it had been feeding: 10MegOhms. All is now well, and the new
breaker has both a red "Tripped" flag and an LED indicator.

Next to the panel was a duplex GFCI outlet showing a red indicator
light, but although it would neither reset nor trip using the Test
button it was "live," so I replaced that as well.

Perce

Thanks for the update. I am surprised that the problem was the AFCI breaker. I will keep that in mind.

On 12/23/2015 05:12 PM, John G wrote:

A family member's house was completely rewired in 2011 and has
arc-fault
breakers for the bedrooms. One of those breakers will not hold in at
all, even with nothing plugged into any of the outlets.

Is substituting a replacement breaker the most appropriate first step,
or is there something else to try first?

The AFCI is probably just doing its job. Swapping a new AFCI is a
simple step, but you will probably still have the same problem. In
addition to offering arc fault protection, the AFCI also has 30ma
ground fault protection.

I had an AFCI problem this past summer in a basement wired by the the
homeowners. In addition to multiple code violations, they used barb
wire staples on the wiring instead of cable staples. One circuit I
could not clear. I disconnected all of the wiring from devices and
splices and pulled out as many staples as I could, but it still would
not clear. I started cutting the line back until it cleared about 6'
from the main electrical panel. I refed the circuit from that 6' mark
and prayed. The AFCI held and continue to stay on with everything
reconnected.

When an AFCI trips it blinks a number of times to indicate what caused
it to trip. Do you have the AFCI instructions to interpret the blinks?

I think that you need to open up the outlets, lights, and switches on
that particular circuit and check for loose connections as your first
step in troubleshooting this problem.

I haven't yet set eyes on the breaker in question: I've seen only a
cell-phone photograph of it. It's a CH breaker with a "Test" button but
no indicator light. Looking on line, I see some CH AFCI breakers that
appear to have an indicator light and some that do not.

I am hoping I can set up a time to go there tomorrow and see what I can
find out. I'll start by disconnecting the black from the breaker and see
whether it still refuses to hold in.

And I just noticed that in the photograph his breakers have "PWD" on the
handle whereas ours have "SWD". What's the significance of that?

Correction: he didn't send me the cell-phone picture, but I thought it
looked like "PWD" when he showed it to me. In fact it was "SWD" after I
cleaned off the dirt, the same as ours.

First surprise when I got there is that there is no Main Breaker: The
feed from the meter goes directly to the bus bars with no intervening
breaker -- so I had to do everything in a "hot" box.

The breaker tripped even with the black disconnected, so I replaced it
-- after checking, with everything unplugged, the resistance of the
circuit it had been feeding: 10MegOhms. All is now well, and the new
breaker has both a red "Tripped" flag and an LED indicator.

Next to the panel was a duplex GFCI outlet showing a red indicator
light, but although it would neither reset nor trip using the Test
button it was "live," so I replaced that as well.

Thanks for the update. I am surprised that the problem was the AFCI breaker. I will keep that in mind.

But how common is it for there to be no "main switch," as is the case
with this installation: feed directly from the meter to the bus bars
with no switch or main breaker to enable safer working in the panel?

Perce

On Friday, December 25, 2015 at 12:17:37 PM UTC-5, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:


But how common is it for there to be no "main switch," as is the case
with this installation: feed directly from the meter to the bus bars
with no switch or main breaker to enable safer working in the panel?

Perce

Not common at all. It's a code violation, unless there are only 6
breakers in that panel, in which case they can serve as the disconnect.
Are you sure there was no disconnect near the meter?

On Fri, 25 Dec 2015 12:18:02 -0500, "Percival P. Cassidy"
wrote:

On 12/23/2015 05:12 PM, John G wrote:

A family member's house was completely rewired in 2011 and has
arc-fault
breakers for the bedrooms. One of those breakers will not hold in at
all, even with nothing plugged into any of the outlets.

Is substituting a replacement breaker the most appropriate first step,
or is there something else to try first?

The AFCI is probably just doing its job. Swapping a new AFCI is a
simple step, but you will probably still have the same problem. In
addition to offering arc fault protection, the AFCI also has 30ma
ground fault protection.

I had an AFCI problem this past summer in a basement wired by the the
homeowners. In addition to multiple code violations, they used barb
wire staples on the wiring instead of cable staples. One circuit I
could not clear. I disconnected all of the wiring from devices and
splices and pulled out as many staples as I could, but it still would
not clear. I started cutting the line back until it cleared about 6'
from the main electrical panel. I refed the circuit from that 6' mark
and prayed. The AFCI held and continue to stay on with everything
reconnected.

When an AFCI trips it blinks a number of times to indicate what caused
it to trip. Do you have the AFCI instructions to interpret the blinks?

I think that you need to open up the outlets, lights, and switches on
that particular circuit and check for loose connections as your first
step in troubleshooting this problem.

I haven't yet set eyes on the breaker in question: I've seen only a
cell-phone photograph of it. It's a CH breaker with a "Test" button but
no indicator light. Looking on line, I see some CH AFCI breakers that
appear to have an indicator light and some that do not.

I am hoping I can set up a time to go there tomorrow and see what I can
find out. I'll start by disconnecting the black from the breaker and see
whether it still refuses to hold in.

And I just noticed that in the photograph his breakers have "PWD" on the
handle whereas ours have "SWD". What's the significance of that?

Correction: he didn't send me the cell-phone picture, but I thought it
looked like "PWD" when he showed it to me. In fact it was "SWD" after I
cleaned off the dirt, the same as ours.

First surprise when I got there is that there is no Main Breaker: The
feed from the meter goes directly to the bus bars with no intervening
breaker -- so I had to do everything in a "hot" box.

The breaker tripped even with the black disconnected, so I replaced it
-- after checking, with everything unplugged, the resistance of the
circuit it had been feeding: 10MegOhms. All is now well, and the new
breaker has both a red "Tripped" flag and an LED indicator.

Next to the panel was a duplex GFCI outlet showing a red indicator
light, but although it would neither reset nor trip using the Test
button it was "live," so I replaced that as well.

Thanks for the update. I am surprised that the problem was the AFCI breaker. I will keep that in mind.

But how common is it for there to be no "main switch," as is the case
with this installation: feed directly from the meter to the bus bars
with no switch or main breaker to enable safer working in the panel?

Perce


There should be a service disconnect. It can be at the meter or at the
panel if it is "inside nearest the point of entrance of the service
conductors". Typically that is pretty much on the opposite side of the
wall although no distance is specified in 230.70.

If the disconnect is outside, your inside panel is a sub panel and,
depending on the length of the feeder, you might develop that voltage
drop in the neutral I was talking about. It should be a 4 wire feeder
with the neutral and ground separated inside.

On 12/25/2015 12:34 PM, trader_4 wrote:

But how common is it for there to be no "main switch," as is the case
with this installation: feed directly from the meter to the bus bars
with no switch or main breaker to enable safer working in the panel?

Not common at all. It's a code violation, unless there are only 6
breakers in that panel, in which case they can serve as the disconnect.
Are you sure there was no disconnect near the meter?

There were 10 or 12 breakers. I saw no sign of any other breaker. And
there was only one combined ground/neutral bar in the panel -- white and
bare wires to the same bar -- so it couldn't count as a sub-panel.

Is it possible that it was OK when the house was wired originally --
long ago -- (or rewired on an earlier occasion) and the only rewiring
that was done in 2011 was from the panel on -- retaining the original panel?

Perce

On 12/25/2015 11:34 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, December 25, 2015 at 12:17:37 PM UTC-5, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:


But how common is it for there to be no "main switch," as is the case
with this installation: feed directly from the meter to the bus bars
with no switch or main breaker to enable safer working in the panel?

Perce

Not common at all. It's a code violation, unless there are only 6
breakers in that panel, in which case they can serve as the disconnect.
Are you sure there was no disconnect near the meter?


The panel in my house (20-slot Square-D QO with 11 single pole and 3
2-pole breakers) has a main breaker. A neighbor's (larger house also
built in 1969, similar panel but all slots full with some double
breakers) does not.

--
Currently: happy holidays (Friday December 25, 2015 12:00:00 AM for 1
day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"The dogma of the divinity of Jesus should have died on the cross, when
the man of Nazareth gave up the ghost." [Lemuel K. Washburn, _Is The
Bible Worth Reading And Other Essays_]

On Friday, December 25, 2015 at 1:04:44 PM UTC-5, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 12/25/2015 11:34 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, December 25, 2015 at 12:17:37 PM UTC-5, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:


But how common is it for there to be no "main switch," as is the case
with this installation: feed directly from the meter to the bus bars
with no switch or main breaker to enable safer working in the panel?

Perce

Not common at all. It's a code violation, unless there are only 6
breakers in that panel, in which case they can serve as the disconnect.
Are you sure there was no disconnect near the meter?


The panel in my house (20-slot Square-D QO with 11 single pole and 3
2-pole breakers) has a main breaker. A neighbor's (larger house also
built in 1969, similar panel but all slots full with some double
breakers) does not.


But does the neighbor's house have a main disconnect between
the meter and panel? Like outside at the meter?

On Friday, December 25, 2015 at 1:03:23 PM UTC-5, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
On 12/25/2015 12:34 PM, trader_4 wrote:

But how common is it for there to be no "main switch," as is the case
with this installation: feed directly from the meter to the bus bars
with no switch or main breaker to enable safer working in the panel?

Not common at all. It's a code violation, unless there are only 6
breakers in that panel, in which case they can serve as the disconnect.
Are you sure there was no disconnect near the meter?

There were 10 or 12 breakers. I saw no sign of any other breaker. And
there was only one combined ground/neutral bar in the panel -- white and
bare wires to the same bar -- so it couldn't count as a sub-panel.

Is it possible that it was OK when the house was wired originally --
long ago -- (or rewired on an earlier occasion) and the only rewiring
that was done in 2011 was from the panel on -- retaining the original panel?

Perce

I think any panel installed in an era that will accept AFI
breakers, code would have required a disconnect. I'm not a
code historian, but I would think to be installed that way
it would have to be a very old panel. Gfre?

If the house was rewired in 2011, hard to imagine that an
electrician would not have installed a disconnect.

On Fri, 25 Dec 2015 12:18:02 -0500, "Percival P. Cassidy"
wrote:

On 12/23/2015 05:12 PM, John G wrote:

A family member's house was completely rewired in 2011 and has
arc-fault
breakers for the bedrooms. One of those breakers will not hold in at
all, even with nothing plugged into any of the outlets.

Is substituting a replacement breaker the most appropriate first step,
or is there something else to try first?

The AFCI is probably just doing its job. Swapping a new AFCI is a
simple step, but you will probably still have the same problem. In
addition to offering arc fault protection, the AFCI also has 30ma
ground fault protection.

I had an AFCI problem this past summer in a basement wired by the the
homeowners. In addition to multiple code violations, they used barb
wire staples on the wiring instead of cable staples. One circuit I
could not clear. I disconnected all of the wiring from devices and
splices and pulled out as many staples as I could, but it still would
not clear. I started cutting the line back until it cleared about 6'
from the main electrical panel. I refed the circuit from that 6' mark
and prayed. The AFCI held and continue to stay on with everything
reconnected.

When an AFCI trips it blinks a number of times to indicate what caused
it to trip. Do you have the AFCI instructions to interpret the blinks?

I think that you need to open up the outlets, lights, and switches on
that particular circuit and check for loose connections as your first
step in troubleshooting this problem.

I haven't yet set eyes on the breaker in question: I've seen only a
cell-phone photograph of it. It's a CH breaker with a "Test" button but
no indicator light. Looking on line, I see some CH AFCI breakers that
appear to have an indicator light and some that do not.

I am hoping I can set up a time to go there tomorrow and see what I can
find out. I'll start by disconnecting the black from the breaker and see
whether it still refuses to hold in.

And I just noticed that in the photograph his breakers have "PWD" on the
handle whereas ours have "SWD". What's the significance of that?

Correction: he didn't send me the cell-phone picture, but I thought it
looked like "PWD" when he showed it to me. In fact it was "SWD" after I
cleaned off the dirt, the same as ours.

First surprise when I got there is that there is no Main Breaker: The
feed from the meter goes directly to the bus bars with no intervening
breaker -- so I had to do everything in a "hot" box.

The breaker tripped even with the black disconnected, so I replaced it
-- after checking, with everything unplugged, the resistance of the
circuit it had been feeding: 10MegOhms. All is now well, and the new
breaker has both a red "Tripped" flag and an LED indicator.

Next to the panel was a duplex GFCI outlet showing a red indicator
light, but although it would neither reset nor trip using the Test
button it was "live," so I replaced that as well.

Thanks for the update. I am surprised that the problem was the AFCI breaker. I will keep that in mind.

But how common is it for there to be no "main switch," as is the case
with this installation: feed directly from the meter to the bus bars
with no switch or main breaker to enable safer working in the panel?

Perce

Only legal with a "pole switch" in some areas. There HAS to be a
current sensing dusconnect of some sort - fuse or breaker - as well as
an "emergency disconnect.

Is the OP sure there is not a "backfeed breaker" in the box - with
the line in connected to that breaker, feeding the bus???

Not legal up here as a primary panel, but it has definitely been used
MANY places in the USA and elsewhere.

On Fri, 25 Dec 2015 13:03:51 -0500, "Percival P. Cassidy"
wrote:

On 12/25/2015 12:34 PM, trader_4 wrote:

But how common is it for there to be no "main switch," as is the case
with this installation: feed directly from the meter to the bus bars
with no switch or main breaker to enable safer working in the panel?

Not common at all. It's a code violation, unless there are only 6
breakers in that panel, in which case they can serve as the disconnect.
Are you sure there was no disconnect near the meter?

There were 10 or 12 breakers. I saw no sign of any other breaker. And
there was only one combined ground/neutral bar in the panel -- white and
bare wires to the same bar -- so it couldn't count as a sub-panel.

Is it possible that it was OK when the house was wired originally --
long ago -- (or rewired on an earlier occasion) and the only rewiring
that was done in 2011 was from the panel on -- retaining the original panel?

Perce
More likely a permitless upgrade panel that never DID meet code.

Any panel old enough to have "possibly" passed code at some time would
not have an AFCI device listed for it, if there was even one that
would fit.

On Fri, 25 Dec 2015 12:04:39 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 12/25/2015 11:34 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, December 25, 2015 at 12:17:37 PM UTC-5, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:


But how common is it for there to be no "main switch," as is the case
with this installation: feed directly from the meter to the bus bars
with no switch or main breaker to enable safer working in the panel?

Perce

Not common at all. It's a code violation, unless there are only 6
breakers in that panel, in which case they can serve as the disconnect.
Are you sure there was no disconnect near the meter?


The panel in my house (20-slot Square-D QO with 11 single pole and 3
2-pole breakers) has a main breaker. A neighbor's (larger house also
built in 1969, similar panel but all slots full with some double
breakers) does not.
You are sure one of those 2 poles is not a 100 or 125 amp "backfeed"
breaker???

On Fri, 25 Dec 2015 13:03:51 -0500, "Percival P. Cassidy"
wrote:

On 12/25/2015 12:34 PM, trader_4 wrote:

But how common is it for there to be no "main switch," as is the case
with this installation: feed directly from the meter to the bus bars
with no switch or main breaker to enable safer working in the panel?

Not common at all. It's a code violation, unless there are only 6
breakers in that panel, in which case they can serve as the disconnect.
Are you sure there was no disconnect near the meter?

There were 10 or 12 breakers. I saw no sign of any other breaker. And
there was only one combined ground/neutral bar in the panel -- white and
bare wires to the same bar -- so it couldn't count as a sub-panel.

Is it possible that it was OK when the house was wired originally --
long ago -- (or rewired on an earlier occasion) and the only rewiring
that was done in 2011 was from the panel on -- retaining the original panel?

Also could be an older service panel with six 2 pole service disconnects
and one of them (usually a 60 or 100) feeding the bottom Distribution
section of the panelboard.
--
Mr.E

On Fri, 25 Dec 2015 13:03:51 -0500, "Percival P. Cassidy"
wrote:

On 12/25/2015 12:34 PM, trader_4 wrote:

But how common is it for there to be no "main switch," as is the case
with this installation: feed directly from the meter to the bus bars
with no switch or main breaker to enable safer working in the panel?

Not common at all. It's a code violation, unless there are only 6
breakers in that panel, in which case they can serve as the disconnect.
Are you sure there was no disconnect near the meter?

There were 10 or 12 breakers. I saw no sign of any other breaker. And
there was only one combined ground/neutral bar in the panel -- white and
bare wires to the same bar -- so it couldn't count as a sub-panel.

Is it possible that it was OK when the house was wired originally --
long ago -- (or rewired on an earlier occasion) and the only rewiring
that was done in 2011 was from the panel on -- retaining the original panel?

Perce

There is no legal scenario where you will have a panelboard without a
service disconnect. Even in those rare cases where you can have the
1-6 disconnects, they all need to be "service rated". Until very
recently a "lighting and appliance" panelboard required no more than
2. (That was to accommodate "split bus" panels).
A couple cycles ago they removed the distinction about the types of
panels.

BTW are you sure there isn't a back fed breaker in that panel that is
acting as the disconnect? (probably not legal but happens sometime)

On 12/25/2015 07:00 PM, wrote:

But how common is it for there to be no "main switch," as is the case
with this installation: feed directly from the meter to the bus bars
with no switch or main breaker to enable safer working in the panel?

Not common at all. It's a code violation, unless there are only 6
breakers in that panel, in which case they can serve as the disconnect.
Are you sure there was no disconnect near the meter?

There were 10 or 12 breakers. I saw no sign of any other breaker. And
there was only one combined ground/neutral bar in the panel -- white and
bare wires to the same bar -- so it couldn't count as a sub-panel.

Is it possible that it was OK when the house was wired originally --
long ago -- (or rewired on an earlier occasion) and the only rewiring
that was done in 2011 was from the panel on -- retaining the original panel?

There is no legal scenario where you will have a panelboard without a
service disconnect. Even in those rare cases where you can have the
1-6 disconnects, they all need to be "service rated". Until very
recently a "lighting and appliance" panelboard required no more than
2. (That was to accommodate "split bus" panels).
A couple cycles ago they removed the distinction about the types of
panels.

BTW are you sure there isn't a back fed breaker in that panel that is
acting as the disconnect? (probably not legal but happens sometime)

I could see the conduit coming down the outside wall from the meter and
going through the wall, and in the basement heavy-gauge conductors
coming through conduit into the top of the panel and connected directly
to the bus bars. There were two pairs of ganged breakers: a 30A pair and
a 40A pair; one for the range and one for the dryer, I think.

If there's a Service Disconnect anywhere, it's well hidden.

I didn't see an inspector's label on the panel, but ours didn't have one
either (but it's a different jurisdiction, so that may not mean anything).

Perce

On Friday, December 25, 2015 at 6:00:51 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Fri, 25 Dec 2015 13:03:51 -0500, "Percival P. Cassidy"
wrote:

On 12/25/2015 12:34 PM, trader_4 wrote:

But how common is it for there to be no "main switch," as is the case
with this installation: feed directly from the meter to the bus bars
with no switch or main breaker to enable safer working in the panel?

Not common at all. It's a code violation, unless there are only 6
breakers in that panel, in which case they can serve as the disconnect..
Are you sure there was no disconnect near the meter?

There were 10 or 12 breakers. I saw no sign of any other breaker. And
there was only one combined ground/neutral bar in the panel -- white and
bare wires to the same bar -- so it couldn't count as a sub-panel.

Is it possible that it was OK when the house was wired originally --
long ago -- (or rewired on an earlier occasion) and the only rewiring
that was done in 2011 was from the panel on -- retaining the original panel?

Perce

There is no legal scenario where you will have a panelboard without a
service disconnect. Even in those rare cases where you can have the
1-6 disconnects, they all need to be "service rated". Until very
recently a "lighting and appliance" panelboard required no more than
2. (That was to accommodate "split bus" panels).
A couple cycles ago they removed the distinction about the types of
panels.

BTW are you sure there isn't a back fed breaker in that panel that is
acting as the disconnect? (probably not legal but happens sometime)

Out of curiosity, what if it's a bolt in breaker panel? Of course I didn't see those panels in homes but in commercial applications. I'm trying to remember if I ever came across a bolt in panel that had a vertical KO up top that wasn't filled with a large frame breaker but was using one of the horizontal positions with a small frame 100 amp or less breaker as a main. It's been a while and I've no idea where my last NEC manual or even my Ugly's Electrical References is. (€¢€¿€¢)

[8~{} Uncle Ugly Monster

But how common is it for there to be no "main switch," as is the case
with this installation: feed directly from the meter to the bus bars
with no switch or main breaker to enable safer working in the panel?

Not common at all. It's a code violation, unless there are only 6
breakers in that panel, in which case they can serve as the disconnect.
Are you sure there was no disconnect near the meter?

There were 10 or 12 breakers. I saw no sign of any other breaker. And
there was only one combined ground/neutral bar in the panel -- white and
bare wires to the same bar -- so it couldn't count as a sub-panel.

Is it possible that it was OK when the house was wired originally --
long ago -- (or rewired on an earlier occasion) and the only rewiring
that was done in 2011 was from the panel on -- retaining the original panel?

There is no legal scenario where you will have a panelboard without a
service disconnect. Even in those rare cases where you can have the
1-6 disconnects, they all need to be "service rated". Until very
recently a "lighting and appliance" panelboard required no more than
2. (That was to accommodate "split bus" panels).
A couple cycles ago they removed the distinction about the types of
panels.

BTW are you sure there isn't a back fed breaker in that panel that is
acting as the disconnect? (probably not legal but happens sometime)

I could see the conduit coming down the outside wall from the meter and
going through the wall, and in the basement heavy-gauge conductors
coming through conduit into the top of the panel and connected directly
to the bus bars. There were two pairs of ganged breakers: a 30A pair and
a 40A pair; one for the range and one for the dryer, I think.

If there's a Service Disconnect anywhere, it's well hidden.

I didn't see an inspector's label on the panel, but ours didn't have one
either (but it's a different jurisdiction, so that may not mean anything).

Perce

There is such a thing as a split buss panel. The upper part would have the multi-gang breakers and a main breaker for the lower part. The upper part is not required to have a main breaker because it has six circuits or less.

On Fri, 25 Dec 2015 18:39:09 -0800 (PST), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Friday, December 25, 2015 at 6:00:51 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Fri, 25 Dec 2015 13:03:51 -0500, "Percival P. Cassidy"
wrote:

On 12/25/2015 12:34 PM, trader_4 wrote:

But how common is it for there to be no "main switch," as is the case
with this installation: feed directly from the meter to the bus bars
with no switch or main breaker to enable safer working in the panel?

Not common at all. It's a code violation, unless there are only 6
breakers in that panel, in which case they can serve as the disconnect.
Are you sure there was no disconnect near the meter?

There were 10 or 12 breakers. I saw no sign of any other breaker. And
there was only one combined ground/neutral bar in the panel -- white and
bare wires to the same bar -- so it couldn't count as a sub-panel.

Is it possible that it was OK when the house was wired originally --
long ago -- (or rewired on an earlier occasion) and the only rewiring
that was done in 2011 was from the panel on -- retaining the original panel?

Perce

There is no legal scenario where you will have a panelboard without a
service disconnect. Even in those rare cases where you can have the
1-6 disconnects, they all need to be "service rated". Until very
recently a "lighting and appliance" panelboard required no more than
2. (That was to accommodate "split bus" panels).
A couple cycles ago they removed the distinction about the types of
panels.

BTW are you sure there isn't a back fed breaker in that panel that is
acting as the disconnect? (probably not legal but happens sometime)

Out of curiosity, what if it's a bolt in breaker panel? Of course I didn't see those panels in homes but in commercial applications. I'm trying to remember if I ever came across a bolt in panel that had a vertical KO up top that wasn't filled with a large frame breaker but was using one of the horizontal positions with a small frame 100 amp or less breaker as a main. It's been a while and I've no idea where my last NEC manual or even my Ugly's Electrical References is. (•?•)

[8~{} Uncle Ugly Monster
Bolt on or not, the line feed cables can not be connected directly to
the bus bar without a disconnect. Nor can the banel be "unfused". The
only "legal" way I can think of this being set up would be with the
fuse and disconnect "at the pole" and it would be a very rare
situation where that would be allowed in an urban or semi-urban area.
I've seen it in rural areas - where the main disconnect and circuit
protection are "on the pole" but generalluy then the meter is also "on
the pole"

No disconnect on the meter base???

On Fri, 25 Dec 2015 19:31:17 -0800 (PST), John G
wrote:

But how common is it for there to be no "main switch," as is the case
with this installation: feed directly from the meter to the bus bars
with no switch or main breaker to enable safer working in the panel?

Not common at all. It's a code violation, unless there are only 6
breakers in that panel, in which case they can serve as the disconnect.
Are you sure there was no disconnect near the meter?

There were 10 or 12 breakers. I saw no sign of any other breaker. And
there was only one combined ground/neutral bar in the panel -- white and
bare wires to the same bar -- so it couldn't count as a sub-panel.

Is it possible that it was OK when the house was wired originally --
long ago -- (or rewired on an earlier occasion) and the only rewiring
that was done in 2011 was from the panel on -- retaining the original panel?

There is no legal scenario where you will have a panelboard without a
service disconnect. Even in those rare cases where you can have the
1-6 disconnects, they all need to be "service rated". Until very
recently a "lighting and appliance" panelboard required no more than
2. (That was to accommodate "split bus" panels).
A couple cycles ago they removed the distinction about the types of
panels.

BTW are you sure there isn't a back fed breaker in that panel that is
acting as the disconnect? (probably not legal but happens sometime)

I could see the conduit coming down the outside wall from the meter and
going through the wall, and in the basement heavy-gauge conductors
coming through conduit into the top of the panel and connected directly
to the bus bars. There were two pairs of ganged breakers: a 30A pair and
a 40A pair; one for the range and one for the dryer, I think.

If there's a Service Disconnect anywhere, it's well hidden.

I didn't see an inspector's label on the panel, but ours didn't have one
either (but it's a different jurisdiction, so that may not mean anything).

Perce

There is such a thing as a split buss panel. The upper part would have the multi-gang breakers and a main breaker for the lower part. The upper part is not required to have a main breaker because it has six circuits or less.
Might be the case some places, but would never pass here.

Used to have some "flat rate water heater" systems where the water
heater bypassed the meter, sometimes also with a remote switching
system that let the power company shut off the water heater under high
demand periods - and even it had to have a fused disconnect. (which
could be a "split buss" panel of sorts)

On Fri, 25 Dec 2015 22:51:46 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 25 Dec 2015 19:31:17 -0800 (PST), John G
wrote:

There is such a thing as a split buss panel. The upper part would have the multi-gang breakers and a main breaker for the lower part. The upper part is not required to have a main breaker because it has six circuits or less.
Might be the case some places, but would never pass here.

Used to have some "flat rate water heater" systems where the water
heater bypassed the meter, sometimes also with a remote switching
system that let the power company shut off the water heater under high
demand periods - and even it had to have a fused disconnect. (which
could be a "split buss" panel of sorts)

I would be surprised if you did not have split bus panels up there,
installed 50+ years ago. That is about when they started getting rare
here.
My neighbor ripped one out here not that long ago but it dated from
the 60s and that was old technology then.
They were fuse panels with 2, 4 or 6 cartridge fuse "pull outs"
supplying the 240v appliances and one of those served the lower buses
with a bunch of plug fuses (edison base).

On Sat, 26 Dec 2015 00:54:09 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 25 Dec 2015 22:51:46 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 25 Dec 2015 19:31:17 -0800 (PST), John G
wrote:

There is such a thing as a split buss panel. The upper part would have the multi-gang breakers and a main breaker for the lower part. The upper part is not required to have a main breaker because it has six circuits or less.
Might be the case some places, but would never pass here.

Used to have some "flat rate water heater" systems where the water
heater bypassed the meter, sometimes also with a remote switching
system that let the power company shut off the water heater under high
demand periods - and even it had to have a fused disconnect. (which
could be a "split buss" panel of sorts)

I would be surprised if you did not have split bus panels up there,
installed 50+ years ago. That is about when they started getting rare
here.
My neighbor ripped one out here not that long ago but it dated from
the 60s and that was old technology then.
They were fuse panels with 2, 4 or 6 cartridge fuse "pull outs"
supplying the 240v appliances and one of those served the lower buses
with a bunch of plug fuses (edison base).
But the OP DID say it was a breaker panel.
Up here residential breaker panels were rare before the the late
sixties - and split buss residential breaker panels were EXTREMELY
uncommon if they existed here. Flat rate water heaters dissappeared
about the same time breaker panels became common. - along with
residential demand meters.