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Default Long turn vs. short turn 90deg elbow: sanitary from toilets
Hi.
I'm replacing the cast iron 4" sanitary lines to my two bathrooms with PVC. They drop vertically from each bathroom and turn 90degrees to horizontal in the basement. This turn is via existing long turn/long sweep elbows.

Is there any problem if I switch these to short turn 90 deg elbows? I'd like to regain the headroom in the basement and keep these pipes within the ceiling joist level, instead of having these stick out below the (future) finished ceiling level in the basement. I can't find anything in the plumbing codes on this. All advice appreciated.

Thanks
Theodore.
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Default Long turn vs. short turn 90deg elbow: sanitary from toilets
More info:
Yes, I'm replacing all pipes, but I'd rather not tempt fate and reduce overall size of pipe diameter. That would really make me nervous.

Pipe slope is not an issue. I will guarantee to maintain that no matter what I do.

Difference between 4" long sweep and 4" short sweep elbow is definitely noticeable. But other than rule-of-thumb to leave what was there, is there any specific code requirement or plumbing rule that says vert-to-horiz turn MUST be long-sweep.
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Default Long turn vs. short turn 90deg elbow: sanitary from toilets
They used a long sweep for a reason. Remember, solids go down, not just
water. You could raise the toilets on a platform made from 2X8's and
plywood decking, in the bathrooms. That would make for more headroom in
the basement. And just think, when you sat on those raised toilets, you
would really feel like a king sitting on the THRONE !!!!

Yes, but the Queen would definitely not approve of such a solution.

Interestingly, I'm reading alot of the posts on this thread that sound like suggestions and recommendations, but no one is coming right out and saying "I'm a licensed plumber and [long-sweep or short sweep] is STANDARD PRACTICE or IBC-requirement for plumbing a toilet and so you should do [xyz method]."
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Default Long turn vs. short turn 90deg elbow: sanitary from toilets
On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 23:52:07 -0400, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 12 Oct 2015 22:03:14 -0400,
wrote:

On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 21:51:54 -0400, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 12 Oct 2015 15:14:42 -0400,
wrote:

On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 09:59:54 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

More info:
Yes, I'm replacing all pipes, but I'd rather not tempt fate and reduce overall size of pipe diameter. That would really make me nervous.

Pipe slope is not an issue. I will guarantee to maintain that no matter what I do.

Difference between 4" long sweep and 4" short sweep elbow is definitely noticeable. But other than rule-of-thumb to leave what was there, is there any specific code requirement or plumbing rule that says vert-to-horiz turn MUST be long-sweep.
I've never seen "long sweep" elbows used for sanitary drains.

So what are they used for?

Don't know - never seen them used.

ROFL
Here in Ontario, in residential applications, the standard radius
fittings appear to be "the standard" - everything tucks up nice and
neat between the floor joists and the majority of basements are
finished living space, Second story bathrooms and 2 story and split
level houses are more common than bungalows, and the "standard"
fittings mean no bulges or bulkheads are required to fit sanitary
sewer connections. Large radius fittings are occaisionally used for 1
1/2" or 2" sink and laundry drains, but even there, they would be the
exception tather than the rule.. In the vast majority of cases the
WC/Toilet is close to the vertical rizer/stack with no horizontal
bends - the "run" is straight from the flange to the stack, which runs
from the pipes under the basement floor slab straight up to the stack
vent in the roof, with all sink drains etc joining into the vertical
stack as well. Sometimes a house will have 2 stacks if there are
bathrooms at opposite ends of the house.

I quess I HAVE seen the long radius 4" used in horizontal bends under
slabs, when I come to think of it - but even there, they are not
"common". Horizontal bends in the framed flooring
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Default Long turn vs. short turn 90deg elbow: sanitary from toilets
In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 13 Oct 2015 00:17:13 -0400,
wrote:

On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 23:52:07 -0400, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 12 Oct 2015 22:03:14 -0400,
wrote:

On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 21:51:54 -0400, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 12 Oct 2015 15:14:42 -0400,
wrote:

On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 09:59:54 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

More info:
Yes, I'm replacing all pipes, but I'd rather not tempt fate and reduce overall size of pipe diameter. That would really make me nervous.

Pipe slope is not an issue. I will guarantee to maintain that no matter what I do.

Difference between 4" long sweep and 4" short sweep elbow is definitely noticeable. But other than rule-of-thumb to leave what was there, is there any specific code requirement or plumbing rule that says vert-to-horiz turn MUST be long-sweep.
I've never seen "long sweep" elbows used for sanitary drains.

So what are they used for?

Don't know - never seen them used.

ROFL
Here in Ontario, in residential applications, the standard radius
fittings appear to be "the standard" - everything tucks up nice and
neat between the floor joists and the majority of basements are
finished living space, Second story bathrooms and 2 story and split
level houses are more common than bungalows, and the "standard"
fittings mean no bulges or bulkheads are required to fit sanitary
sewer connections. Large radius fittings are occaisionally used for 1
1/2" or 2" sink and laundry drains, but even there, they would be the
exception tather than the rule.. In the vast majority of cases the
WC/Toilet is close to the vertical rizer/stack with no horizontal
bends - the "run" is straight from the flange to the stack, which runs
from the pipes under the basement floor slab straight up to the stack
vent in the roof, with all sink drains etc joining into the vertical
stack as well. Sometimes a house will have 2 stacks if there are
bathrooms at opposite ends of the house.

I quess I HAVE seen the long radius 4" used in horizontal bends under
slabs, when I come to think of it - but even there, they are not
"common". Horizontal bends in the framed flooring

This is not as funny as your first answer, but thanks.
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Default Long turn vs. short turn 90deg elbow: sanitary from toilets
On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 20:57:28 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

They used a long sweep for a reason. Remember, solids go down, not just
water. You could raise the toilets on a platform made from 2X8's and
plywood decking, in the bathrooms. That would make for more headroom in
the basement. And just think, when you sat on those raised toilets, you
would really feel like a king sitting on the THRONE !!!!

Yes, but the Queen would definitely not approve of such a solution.

Interestingly, I'm reading alot of the posts on this thread that sound like suggestions and recommendations, but no one is coming right out and saying "I'm a licensed plumber and [long-sweep or short sweep] is STANDARD PRACTICE or IBC-requirement for plumbing a toilet and so you should do [xyz method]."
I'm not a licenced plumber, but the last 3 houses I've lived in, as
well as the last 3 houses my father lived in (2 of which he built) all
used the "standard radius" fittings. I've done work in several of the
houses in my neighbourhood - all in the 40 year old range - and they
are also all "standard radius" 4" plastic drains.
I put in a basement bath and laundry in my daughter's house and
finished the basement. I had a licenced plumber work with me on the
under-slab modifications to the sanitary drain - and everything was
done with "standard radius" bends with the possible exception of one
"45" required to connect the laundry under the slab - and that was not
a 4 inch pipe.

That said, this is Ontario Canada, and we do things a bit differently
up here than in most of the USA - like installing electrical service
panels SIDEWAYS more often than upright - particularly when replacing
old fuse panels. (Just had mine replaced last week - and installing it
"upright" would have involved some major rework and/or a bunch of
junction boxes to extend the wiring to reach the bottom of the panel,
while mounting it sideways - with the main disconnect on the left,
didn't require relocating a single wire other than the feed from the
meter base (which was also replaced) needing to be raised 4 inches.
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Default Long turn vs. short turn 90deg elbow: sanitary from toilets
On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 11:18:22 -0400, FrozenNorth
wrote:

On 2015-10-12 11:06 AM, wrote:
Hi.

There is probably no problem doing that, but just in case, use elbows
with a cleanout.

There is no such thing as an elbow with a cleanout.

But there are tees, which can be used as an elbow and the third opening
can become the cleanout with another fitting made to be a cleanout.

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Default Long turn vs. short turn 90deg elbow: sanitary from toilets
On Tuesday, October 13, 2015 at 12:29:11 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 20:57:28 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

They used a long sweep for a reason. Remember, solids go down, not just
water. You could raise the toilets on a platform made from 2X8's and
plywood decking, in the bathrooms. That would make for more headroom in
the basement. And just think, when you sat on those raised toilets, you
would really feel like a king sitting on the THRONE !!!!

Yes, but the Queen would definitely not approve of such a solution.

Interestingly, I'm reading alot of the posts on this thread that sound like suggestions and recommendations, but no one is coming right out and saying "I'm a licensed plumber and [long-sweep or short sweep] is STANDARD PRACTICE or IBC-requirement for plumbing a toilet and so you should do [xyz method]."
I'm not a licenced plumber, but the last 3 houses I've lived in, as
well as the last 3 houses my father lived in (2 of which he built) all
used the "standard radius" fittings. I've done work in several of the
houses in my neighbourhood - all in the 40 year old range - and they
are also all "standard radius" 4" plastic drains.
I put in a basement bath and laundry in my daughter's house and
finished the basement. I had a licenced plumber work with me on the
under-slab modifications to the sanitary drain - and everything was
done with "standard radius" bends with the possible exception of one
"45" required to connect the laundry under the slab - and that was not
a 4 inch pipe.

That said, this is Ontario Canada, and we do things a bit differently
up here than in most of the USA - like installing electrical service
panels SIDEWAYS more often than upright - particularly when replacing
old fuse panels. (Just had mine replaced last week - and installing it
"upright" would have involved some major rework and/or a bunch of
junction boxes to extend the wiring to reach the bottom of the panel,
while mounting it sideways - with the main disconnect on the left,
didn't require relocating a single wire other than the feed from the
meter base (which was also replaced) needing to be raised 4 inches.

The long sweep elbows offer less resistance to flow. If you're
plumbing up a vent system for a furnace for example, where you're
only allowed a certain number of feet and turns to keep within the
max resistance limit, the long sweep offer less resistance. Same
thing with a water or waste pipe, I'd always use a long if it would
work. But sometimes other factors come into play. IDK what code
might say.
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Default Long turn vs. short turn 90deg elbow: sanitary from toilets
On Monday, October 12, 2015 at 10:06:42 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Hi.
I'm replacing the cast iron 4" sanitary lines to my two bathrooms with PVC. They drop vertically from each bathroom and turn 90degrees to horizontal in the basement. This turn is via existing long turn/long sweep elbows.

Is there any problem if I switch these to short turn 90 deg elbows? I'd like to regain the headroom in the basement and keep these pipes within the ceiling joist level, instead of having these stick out below the (future) finished ceiling level in the basement. I can't find anything in the plumbing codes on this. All advice appreciated.

Thanks
Theodore.

Sewer, soil, or septic...but certainly not sanitary! ʘل͟ʘ
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Default Long turn vs. short turn 90deg elbow: sanitary from toilets
On 10/12/2015 2:12 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 11:05:18 -0500, wrote:

On 10/12/2015 10:43 AM, Oren wrote:
On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 11:18:22 -0400, FrozenNorth
wrote:

On 2015-10-12 11:06 AM, wrote:
Hi.
I'm replacing the cast iron 4" sanitary lines to my two bathrooms with PVC. They drop vertically from each bathroom and turn 90degrees to horizontal in the basement. This turn is via existing long turn/long sweep elbows.

Is there any problem if I switch these to short turn 90 deg elbows? I'd like to regain the headroom in the basement and keep these pipes within the ceiling joist level, instead of having these stick out below the (future) finished ceiling level in the basement. I can't find anything in the plumbing codes on this. All advice appreciated.

There is probably no problem doing that, but just in case, use elbows
with a cleanout.

... I'd ensure to maintain proper pitch (slope) in the pipe

And _I_ would likely not remove the sweeps, either...an inch or two of
head room isn't worth the possible hassle imo.
I'd remove the "sweeps" and go with the generally accepted and
commonly used fittings made and sold expressly for the application. ...

So who do you think those are, specifically?

On reflection, I'd probably convert from an ell of either variety to a
sanitary tee and install a plug on the backside for the cleanout access.
I'd suppose that's probably what you meant...

--

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Default Long turn vs. short turn 90deg elbow: sanitary from toilets
On Thu, 15 Oct 2015 09:56:22 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 10/12/2015 2:12 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 11:05:18 -0500, wrote:

On 10/12/2015 10:43 AM, Oren wrote:
On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 11:18:22 -0400, FrozenNorth
wrote:

On 2015-10-12 11:06 AM, wrote:
Hi.
I'm replacing the cast iron 4" sanitary lines to my two bathrooms with PVC. They drop vertically from each bathroom and turn 90degrees to horizontal in the basement. This turn is via existing long turn/long sweep elbows.

Is there any problem if I switch these to short turn 90 deg elbows? I'd like to regain the headroom in the basement and keep these pipes within the ceiling joist level, instead of having these stick out below the (future) finished ceiling level in the basement. I can't find anything in the plumbing codes on this. All advice appreciated.

There is probably no problem doing that, but just in case, use elbows
with a cleanout.

... I'd ensure to maintain proper pitch (slope) in the pipe

And _I_ would likely not remove the sweeps, either...an inch or two of
head room isn't worth the possible hassle imo.
I'd remove the "sweeps" and go with the generally accepted and
commonly used fittings made and sold expressly for the application. ...

So who do you think those are, specifically?

On reflection, I'd probably convert from an ell of either variety to a
sanitary tee and install a plug on the backside for the cleanout access.
I'd suppose that's probably what you meant...
I meant exactly what I said. I'd use the standard 4"90 degree short
radius Ells that are used in virtually every home here - and use a
sanitary "T" as you noted in at least one location for a cleenout. No
use putting a cleanout up between the floor joista where you are
putting in a finished ceiling though. The cleanout is at floor level
where the vertical enters the slab, or at sewer lwvel where the
horizontal exits through the foundation to the septic or municipal
sanitary sewer system.
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Default Long turn vs. short turn 90deg elbow: sanitary from toilets


"dpb" wrote in message ...
On 10/12/2015 2:12 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 11:05:18 -0500, wrote:

On 10/12/2015 10:43 AM, Oren wrote:
On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 11:18:22 -0400, FrozenNorth
wrote:

On 2015-10-12 11:06 AM, wrote:
Hi.
I'm replacing the cast iron 4" sanitary lines to my two bathrooms
with PVC. They drop vertically from each bathroom and turn 90degrees
to horizontal in the basement. This turn is via existing long
turn/long sweep elbows.

Is there any problem if I switch these to short turn 90 deg elbows?
I'd like to regain the headroom in the basement and keep these pipes
within the ceiling joist level, instead of having these stick out
below the (future) finished ceiling level in the basement. I can't
find anything in the plumbing codes on this. All advice appreciated.

There is probably no problem doing that, but just in case, use elbows
with a cleanout.

... I'd ensure to maintain proper pitch (slope) in the pipe

And _I_ would likely not remove the sweeps, either...an inch or two of
head room isn't worth the possible hassle imo.
I'd remove the "sweeps" and go with the generally accepted and
commonly used fittings made and sold expressly for the application. ...

So who do you think those are, specifically?

On reflection, I'd probably convert from an ell of either variety to a
sanitary tee and install a plug on the backside for the cleanout access.
I'd suppose that's probably what you meant..

Plumbing code violation...sanitary tees can't be installed "on their back"
(side opening in vertical position) unless it's in a dry vent.

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Default Long turn vs. short turn 90deg elbow: sanitary from toilets
On 10/17/2015 10:10 AM, Rick wrote:
....

Plumbing code violation...sanitary tees can't be installed "on their
back" (side opening in vertical position) unless it's in a dry vent.

Seems strange; seen it quite often in (afaik inspected) installations...

--

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