My Chevy pickup truck was getting hard to start on cold days. I took it
to a service garage and had the guy put a battery tester on it. The
results showed it to be borderline between Fair and Good. The
alternator was fine. The guy said the battery should last till Spring.
WRONG! The other day I parked at a local restaurant to use their WIFI.
and plugged my laptop computer into my inverter. About 40 minutes went
by, when the computer switched to it's internal battery and my truck's
dashboard clock went to 12:00. That little 300W inverter actually
drained the car battery so much the dome light was barely visible.

I got a jump and drove home. The next day I bought a new battery.

Anyhow, my reason to post this is because the truck has a built in volt
meter on the dash. All my older vehicles had either an idiot light, or
ammeter gauge. The ammeter would always indicate charging or discharge,
but the volt meter is a little harder to understand.

But I'm a little puzzled by the erratic readings on that volt meter when
I had that failing battery. Normally (and with my new battery), it's
almost always reading about 14V (normal), and slightly less after
starting the engine or if the lights were left on for awhile after the
engine was turned off.

When I had that failing battery, I'd be driving down the road, and the
volt meter would suddenly drop from 14v to around 11v. Then it would
slowly creep back up. This was under a constant load, (not when I was
braking and using brake lights, etc). This seemed to be happening more
and more, and I would often notice the headlights would get a little
dimmer when that meter dropped. That's why I had the service station
test my battery and alternator.

Oddly enough, while the battery tested borderline between Fair and Good,
it apparently was much worse than the test showed. What I dont
understand is why the volt meter would fluctuate, drop from 14v to 11v
and then go back up, and do so repeatedly...... My thinking is that one
(or more) of the cells were shorting out randomly. But I'm just
guessing.

Can anyone give a better explanation?

Note: With my new battery, the meter is staying at 14v all the time and
everything is working well, so that shows the problem was the battery
itself, not charging components or bad wiring or a bad volt meter.

On 12/13/2014 6:24 AM, wrote:


When I had that failing battery, I'd be driving down the road, and the
volt meter would suddenly drop from 14v to around 11v. Then it would
slowly creep back up. This was under a constant load, (not when I was
braking and using brake lights, etc). This seemed to be happening more
and more, and I would often notice the headlights would get a little
dimmer when that meter dropped. That's why I had the service station
test my battery and alternator.

Oddly enough, while the battery tested borderline between Fair and Good,
it apparently was much worse than the test showed. What I dont
understand is why the volt meter would fluctuate, drop from 14v to 11v
and then go back up, and do so repeatedly...... My thinking is that one
(or more) of the cells were shorting out randomly. But I'm just
guessing.

Can anyone give a better explanation?

Note: With my new battery, the meter is staying at 14v all the time and
everything is working well, so that shows the problem was the battery
itself, not charging components or bad wiring or a bad volt meter.



I think you answered you own question. Unless it was a loose cable or
connection (which could also cause the same symptoms), the logical
conclusion would be the plates/cells within the battery. Since the guy
told you fair to good, I would believe it was more fair to bad, edging
on bad and thus, your meter was reading the sporadic changes within the
guts of the battery.

I'm sure someone will come along with a more precise answer explaining
the chemical reactions of battery cells, but the general logic is
obvious, IMO.

On Sat, 13 Dec 2014 05:24:17 -0600, wrote in


The other day I parked at a local restaurant to use their WIFI.
and plugged my laptop computer into my inverter. About 40 minutes went
by, when the computer switched to it's internal battery and my truck's

Was the engine running while you used the inverter?
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and having to visit 10 different news stands to pickup each one.
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On 12/13/2014 06:21 AM, Meanie wrote:


snip


I think you answered you own question. Unless it was a loose cable or
connection (which could also cause the same symptoms), the logical
conclusion would be the plates/cells within the battery. Since the guy
told you fair to good, I would believe it was more fair to bad, edging
on bad and thus, your meter was reading the sporadic changes within the
guts of the battery.

I'm sure someone will come along with a more precise answer explaining
the chemical reactions of battery cells, but the general logic is
obvious, IMO.




Since I was in the battery business I might as well jump in here....
and yes, it looks like you guys have figured out the probable cause.

There are insulated separators between the battery plates and one fairly
common mode of failure is for a separator to slip out of place.
Places normally shed active material which usually just settles down to
the sediment tray at the bottom of the battery...but if a separator
slips out of place, "mossing" occurs between the plates.

It is very possible for shorts caused by mossing to be intermittent.

If one cell is shorted the battery voltage indeed would drop to approx
11 volts. When the battery was put on the tester is was obviously in a
non-shorted condition.


This is one situation where the service tech would have been right to
advise the purchase of a new battery.

On Sat, 13 Dec 2014 05:24:17 -0600, wrote:

My Chevy pickup truck was getting hard to start on cold days. I took it
to a service garage and had the guy put a battery tester on it. The
results showed it to be borderline between Fair and Good. The
alternator was fine. The guy said the battery should last till Spring.
WRONG! The other day I parked at a local restaurant to use their WIFI.
and plugged my laptop computer into my inverter. About 40 minutes went
by, when the computer switched to it's internal battery and my truck's
dashboard clock went to 12:00. That little 300W inverter actually
drained the car battery so much the dome light was barely visible.


You either had a weak battery or bad connections. If the battery is
more than a couple of years old, it would have been smart to replace
it. Winter is not here yet and you had starting problems. Does it
make sense to wait? Not for me. 40 minutes on the inverter could
kill a battery even with just the draw of a laptop.

I got a jump and drove home. The next day I bought a new battery.

All my older vehicles had either an idiot light, or
ammeter gauge. The ammeter would always indicate charging or discharge,
but the volt meter is a little harder to understand.

But I'm a little puzzled by the erratic readings on that volt meter when
I had that failing battery. Normally (and with my new battery), it's
almost always reading about 14V (normal), and slightly less after
starting the engine or if the lights were left on for awhile after the
engine was turned off.

When I had that failing battery, I'd be driving down the road, and the
volt meter would suddenly drop from 14v to around 11v. Then it would
slowly creep back up. This was under a constant load, (not when I was
braking and using brake lights, etc). This seemed to be happening more
and more, and I would often notice the headlights would get a little
dimmer when that meter dropped. That's why I had the service station
test my battery and alternator.

You were smart enough to have it tested, but they were not smart
enough to tell you the battery was in trouble. Now you know what to
look for a few years from now when the battery is approaching the end
of life.

On Sat, 13 Dec 2014 07:29:10 -0600, CRNG
wrote:

On Sat, 13 Dec 2014 05:24:17 -0600, wrote in


The other day I parked at a local restaurant to use their WIFI.
and plugged my laptop computer into my inverter. About 40 minutes went
by, when the computer switched to it's internal battery and my truck's

Was the engine running while you used the inverter?

-NO-

When the battery was still good, I ran that inverter/laptop for 3 hours
once, and the truck still started, but just barely. It turned over very
slow. But I know that was too long. Normally I'm not online more than
an hour in the truck.

Of course, with this failing battery, combined with colder weather and
shorter days, causing me to use the lights more and the heater fan when
I'm driving, that 40 min. sure took it's toll.

Rather than burn up a lot of gas to use my laptop, in my vehicle, I
think I'm going to get a small mower battery to carry around, and just
put it on a charger when I get home. The built in battery on the
computer is old and dont last more than 15 to 20 minutes. The built in
batteries cost more than what I paid for the 8 year old laptop. It's
cheaper to just buy one of those $25 batteries made for riding lawn
mowers.

On Sat, 13 Dec 2014 08:15:23 -0600, philo* wrote:

On 12/13/2014 06:21 AM, Meanie wrote:


snip


I think you answered you own question. Unless it was a loose cable or
connection (which could also cause the same symptoms), the logical
conclusion would be the plates/cells within the battery. Since the guy
told you fair to good, I would believe it was more fair to bad, edging
on bad and thus, your meter was reading the sporadic changes within the
guts of the battery.

I'm sure someone will come along with a more precise answer explaining
the chemical reactions of battery cells, but the general logic is
obvious, IMO.




Since I was in the battery business I might as well jump in here....
and yes, it looks like you guys have figured out the probable cause.

There are insulated separators between the battery plates and one fairly
common mode of failure is for a separator to slip out of place.
Places normally shed active material which usually just settles down to
the sediment tray at the bottom of the battery...but if a separator
slips out of place, "mossing" occurs between the plates.

It is very possible for shorts caused by mossing to be intermittent.

If one cell is shorted the battery voltage indeed would drop to approx
11 volts. When the battery was put on the tester is was obviously in a
non-shorted condition.


This is one situation where the service tech would have been right to
advise the purchase of a new battery.


Great explanation. Thanks. But I am left asking "What is MOSSING?"

I do agree that battery had an intermittent issue, which apparently was
not occuring when it was placed on the tester.

One thing I wonder, does the movement of the vehicle such as bumps in
the road, cause those separators to move, and thus cause intermittent
shorts? There did not appear to be any pattern to the voltage drops,
they just occurred randomly. Yet I did notice them more on one local
stretch of road which tends to be a rough ride.

On Sat, 13 Dec 2014 05:24:17 -0600, wrote:

My Chevy pickup truck was getting hard to start on cold days. I took it
to a service garage and had the guy put a battery tester on it. The
results showed it to be borderline between Fair and Good. The
alternator was fine. The guy said the battery should last till Spring.
WRONG! The other day I parked at a local restaurant to use their WIFI.
and plugged my laptop computer into my inverter. About 40 minutes went
by, when the computer switched to it's internal battery and my truck's
dashboard clock went to 12:00. That little 300W inverter actually
drained the car battery so much the dome light was barely visible.

I got a jump and drove home. The next day I bought a new battery.

Anyhow, my reason to post this is because the truck has a built in volt
meter on the dash. All my older vehicles had either an idiot light, or
ammeter gauge. The ammeter would always indicate charging or discharge,
but the volt meter is a little harder to understand.

But I'm a little puzzled by the erratic readings on that volt meter when
I had that failing battery. Normally (and with my new battery), it's
almost always reading about 14V (normal), and slightly less after
starting the engine or if the lights were left on for awhile after the
engine was turned off.

When I had that failing battery, I'd be driving down the road, and the
volt meter would suddenly drop from 14v to around 11v. Then it would
slowly creep back up. This was under a constant load, (not when I was
braking and using brake lights, etc). This seemed to be happening more
and more, and I would often notice the headlights would get a little
dimmer when that meter dropped. That's why I had the service station
test my battery and alternator.

Oddly enough, while the battery tested borderline between Fair and Good,
it apparently was much worse than the test showed. What I dont
understand is why the volt meter would fluctuate, drop from 14v to 11v
and then go back up, and do so repeatedly...... My thinking is that one
(or more) of the cells were shorting out randomly. But I'm just
guessing.

Can anyone give a better explanation?

Note: With my new battery, the meter is staying at 14v all the time and
everything is working well, so that shows the problem was the battery
itself, not charging components or bad wiring or a bad volt meter.

I think you pretty well hit the nail on the head, and your Garage was
using 1950's technology to test the battery (a simple load test).If
they tested it with a Midtronics battery tester I can almost guarantee
it would have failed.

On Sat, 13 Dec 2014 13:42:46 -0500, wrote:

Can anyone give a better explanation?

Note: With my new battery, the meter is staying at 14v all the time and
everything is working well, so that shows the problem was the battery
itself, not charging components or bad wiring or a bad volt meter.

I think you pretty well hit the nail on the head, and your Garage was
using 1950's technology to test the battery (a simple load test).If
they tested it with a Midtronics battery tester I can almost guarantee
it would have failed.


I'm not sure what a "Midtronics" tester is, but it was just a load
tester. I once owned one of them, but it died and I never bought
another one, since I rarely ever used it. A lot of places will test a
battery for free these days.

On 12/13/2014 1:52 PM, wrote:



I'm not sure what a "Midtronics" tester is, but it was just a load
tester. I once owned one of them, but it died and I never bought
another one, since I rarely ever used it. A lot of places will test a
battery for free these days.


Agreed but having your own load tester is a plus to avoid pulling the
battery and taking it in and in some cases, discovering it's good.

On 12/13/2014 12:28 PM, wrote:





snip
tery.


Great explanation. Thanks. But I am left asking "What is MOSSING?"

I do agree that battery had an intermittent issue, which apparently was
not occuring when it was placed on the tester.

One thing I wonder, does the movement of the vehicle such as bumps in
the road, cause those separators to move, and thus cause intermittent
shorts? There did not appear to be any pattern to the voltage drops,
they just occurred randomly. Yet I did notice them more on one local
stretch of road which tends to be a rough ride.






Yep, a loose or slipped separator would cause an intermittent problem on
a bumpy road.

To me, that seems like the most likely explanation.

A more obvious problem would have been an internal "hard short"
such as broken plates permanently touching. In that situation the
battery would have been about 10.5 volts no matter what

On 12/13/2014 12:28 PM, wrote:
....

One thing I wonder, does the movement of the vehicle such as bumps in
the road, cause those separators to move, and thus cause intermittent
shorts? There did not appear to be any pattern to the voltage drops,
they just occurred randomly. Yet I did notice them more on one local
stretch of road which tends to be a rough ride.

A link again to a set of lecture slides on Pb-acid btteries...

http://my.ece.ucsb.edu/York/Bobsclass/194/LecNotes/Lect%20-%20Batteries.pdf

Includes some cutaway photo's that make it pretty easy to see what can
happen...

--

I try to replace my car battery every 5 years, and I carry a 5/16 inch combination wrench in my glove compartment.

I've had enough troubles with batteries going dead on me that I think it's just good practice to replace the battery every 5 years. Any battery over 5 years old can go dead on you any time, and often at the worst possible time.

And, any battery over 10 years old is on borrowed time. I just think it's poor economy to be driving a car that can go dead on you any time requiring you to pay a $100+ towing charge if you can avoid that by paying $15 per year on a new battery every 5 years. My little Chevy Cavalier uses a class 75 battery, and those don't even cost $75 at Costco or Walmart. Compare that to the amount any one of us spends even on oil changes, much less gasoline.

Also, if you replace your battery yourself, a common cause of the car not starting is that the battery terminals haven't been tightened sufficiently. Those things have to be tight or you won't get enough juice to the starter motor to turn the engine over. I once took my car to a battery shop to check the battery, and he found that he could turn the battery terminals another two full turns, which I was surprised at.

On Sat, 13 Dec 2014 05:24:17 -0600, wrote:

My Chevy pickup truck was getting hard to start on cold days. I took it
to a service garage and had the guy put a battery tester on it. The
results showed it to be borderline between Fair and Good. The
alternator was fine. The guy said the battery should last till Spring.
WRONG! The other day I parked at a local restaurant to use their WIFI.
and plugged my laptop computer into my inverter. About 40 minutes went
by, when the computer switched to it's internal battery and my truck's
dashboard clock went to 12:00. That little 300W inverter actually
drained the car battery so much the dome light was barely visible.

I got a jump and drove home. The next day I bought a new battery.

Anyhow, my reason to post this is because the truck has a built in volt
meter on the dash. All my older vehicles had either an idiot light, or
ammeter gauge. The ammeter would always indicate charging or discharge,
but the volt meter is a little harder to understand.

But I'm a little puzzled by the erratic readings on that volt meter when
I had that failing battery. Normally (and with my new battery), it's
almost always reading about 14V (normal), and slightly less after
starting the engine or if the lights were left on for awhile after the
engine was turned off.

When I had that failing battery, I'd be driving down the road, and the
volt meter would suddenly drop from 14v to around 11v. Then it would
slowly creep back up. This was under a constant load, (not when I was
braking and using brake lights, etc). This seemed to be happening more
and more, and I would often notice the headlights would get a little
dimmer when that meter dropped. That's why I had the service station
test my battery and alternator.

Oddly enough, while the battery tested borderline between Fair and Good,
it apparently was much worse than the test showed. What I dont
understand is why the volt meter would fluctuate, drop from 14v to 11v
and then go back up, and do so repeatedly...... My thinking is that one
(or more) of the cells were shorting out randomly. But I'm just
guessing.

Can anyone give a better explanation?

Note: With my new battery, the meter is staying at 14v all the time and
everything is working well, so that shows the problem was the battery
itself, not charging components or bad wiring or a bad volt meter.


I don't know about Chevy but I know that FORD runs their voltmeters
from the computer and they ALWAYS read at the 14v mark until something
is SERIOUSLY wrong and then they drop down a lot lower. It's not
really a voltmeter, it's just a go-no go indicator just like an idiot
light. It tells you you have "good voltage" OR you have "bad
voltage". That is probably why you saw it fluctuating like you did,
because the battery was bad, but not because it was intermittently
bad, just because it was running right at the computers switch point
between bad and good. The way to verify if your voltmeter is a REAL
meter or just an idiot-meter is to run the car at idle, see where the
voltmeter needle points, and then turn on the headlights on high beam.
If the needle doesn't drop at least a volt or two it's just an idiot
gauge. A lot of cars temperature gauges are similarly set up although
not as go-no go but still computer controlled so the computer tries to
hides bad news till its really bad by restricting the needle so it's
not linear with temperature rise.. They are better then just an idiot
light but not as good as a true gauge.

The average driver thinks he wants gauges but he really doesn't, the
fluctuations make him nervous and result in extra warranty work when
someone complains "my oil pressure keeps dropping". Most oil pressure
gauges are also just a go-no go nowadays.

"Ashton Crusher" wrote in message
...
I don't know about Chevy but I know that FORD runs their voltmeters
from the computer and they ALWAYS read at the 14v mark until something
is SERIOUSLY wrong and then they drop down a lot lower. It's not
really a voltmeter, it's just a go-no go indicator just like an idiot
light. It tells you you have "good voltage" OR you have "bad
voltage". That is probably why you saw it fluctuating like you did,
because the battery was bad, but not because it was intermittently
bad, just because it was running right at the computers switch point
between bad and good. The way to verify if your voltmeter is a REAL
meter or just an idiot-meter is to run the car at idle, see where the
voltmeter needle points, and then turn on the headlights on high beam.
If the needle doesn't drop at least a volt or two it's just an idiot
gauge. A lot of cars temperature gauges are similarly set up although
not as go-no go but still computer controlled so the computer tries to
hides bad news till its really bad by restricting the needle so it's
not linear with temperature rise.. They are better then just an idiot
light but not as good as a true gauge.


That may explain it. I did not see how the voltage could go below 12.5
volts, and really how it could go much below 14 volts with the engine
running unless there was a loose connection. Unless the alternator was bad,
but with a new battery and no other changes, it would tend to eliminate the
alternator.



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
http://www.avast.com

On Sat, 13 Dec 2014 09:50:16 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On Sat, 13 Dec 2014 05:24:17 -0600, wrote:

My Chevy pickup truck was getting hard to start on cold days. I took it
to a service garage and had the guy put a battery tester on it. The
results showed it to be borderline between Fair and Good. The
alternator was fine. The guy said the battery should last till Spring.
WRONG! The other day I parked at a local restaurant to use their WIFI.
and plugged my laptop computer into my inverter. About 40 minutes went
by, when the computer switched to it's internal battery and my truck's
dashboard clock went to 12:00. That little 300W inverter actually
drained the car battery so much the dome light was barely visible.


You either had a weak battery or bad connections. If the battery is
more than a couple of years old, it would have been smart to replace
it. Winter is not here yet and you had starting problems. Does it
make sense to wait? Not for me. 40 minutes on the inverter could
kill a battery even with just the draw of a laptop.

Not if the battery was any good. The laptop won't draw more than 75
watts - most run closer to 50. At 75% efficiency (and virtually all
current inverters are better than that) you are looking at a maximum
of 100 watt draw, which at 12 volts is less than 8.5 amps - with 40
minutes being .66 hours =12.88 amp hours

I got a jump and drove home. The next day I bought a new battery.

All my older vehicles had either an idiot light, or
ammeter gauge. The ammeter would always indicate charging or discharge,
but the volt meter is a little harder to understand.

But I'm a little puzzled by the erratic readings on that volt meter when
I had that failing battery. Normally (and with my new battery), it's
almost always reading about 14V (normal), and slightly less after
starting the engine or if the lights were left on for awhile after the
engine was turned off.

When I had that failing battery, I'd be driving down the road, and the
volt meter would suddenly drop from 14v to around 11v. Then it would
slowly creep back up. This was under a constant load, (not when I was
braking and using brake lights, etc). This seemed to be happening more
and more, and I would often notice the headlights would get a little
dimmer when that meter dropped. That's why I had the service station
test my battery and alternator.

You were smart enough to have it tested, but they were not smart
enough to tell you the battery was in trouble. Now you know what to
look for a few years from now when the battery is approaching the end
of life.

On Sat, 13 Dec 2014 12:52:55 -0600, wrote:

On Sat, 13 Dec 2014 13:42:46 -0500, wrote:

Can anyone give a better explanation?

Note: With my new battery, the meter is staying at 14v all the time and
everything is working well, so that shows the problem was the battery
itself, not charging components or bad wiring or a bad volt meter.

I think you pretty well hit the nail on the head, and your Garage was
using 1950's technology to test the battery (a simple load test).If
they tested it with a Midtronics battery tester I can almost guarantee
it would have failed.


I'm not sure what a "Midtronics" tester is, but it was just a load
tester. I once owned one of them, but it died and I never bought
another one, since I rarely ever used it. A lot of places will test a
battery for free these days.
A "midtronics" tester is the brand name for a patented
transconductance? tester that can check the condition of a battery
even when discharched. It measures internal resistance and voltage
recovery rate and a whole bunch of other things that translate to the
capacity of the battery to store and deliver power.

They are not cheap, but MOST battery wholesalers and retailers worth
their salt have one and use it religiously. If a battery passes on a
midtronics, it is good and is not replaced under warranty. Start
looking for another electrical problem that is drawing the battery
down or not charging it properly. If the midronics says it is bad, it
WILL fail to start your vehicle very shortly if it has not already.

No garage should be selling or servicing batteries without one today.
Period.

On Sat, 13 Dec 2014 21:33:31 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:


"Ashton Crusher" wrote in message
.. .
I don't know about Chevy but I know that FORD runs their voltmeters
from the computer and they ALWAYS read at the 14v mark until something
is SERIOUSLY wrong and then they drop down a lot lower. It's not
really a voltmeter, it's just a go-no go indicator just like an idiot
light. It tells you you have "good voltage" OR you have "bad
voltage". That is probably why you saw it fluctuating like you did,
because the battery was bad, but not because it was intermittently
bad, just because it was running right at the computers switch point
between bad and good. The way to verify if your voltmeter is a REAL
meter or just an idiot-meter is to run the car at idle, see where the
voltmeter needle points, and then turn on the headlights on high beam.
If the needle doesn't drop at least a volt or two it's just an idiot
gauge. A lot of cars temperature gauges are similarly set up although
not as go-no go but still computer controlled so the computer tries to
hides bad news till its really bad by restricting the needle so it's
not linear with temperature rise.. They are better then just an idiot
light but not as good as a true gauge.


That may explain it. I did not see how the voltage could go below 12.5
volts, and really how it could go much below 14 volts with the engine
running unless there was a loose connection. Unless the alternator was bad,
but with a new battery and no other changes, it would tend to eliminate the
alternator.



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
http://www.avast.com
In my long lifetime working with automobiles and auto electrics I
have never run across a voltmeter, ammeter, temperature guage, fuel
guage or speedometer that works as an "idiot guage" or "go no-go"
indicator.
Inhave seen MANY oli pressure "guages" that do. In fact the vast
majority of so-called oil pressure guages just tell you if the
pressure is higher or lower than 4 or 5 psig.

On Saturday, December 13, 2014 3:41:04 PM UTC-5, philo* wrote:
On 12/13/2014 12:28 PM, wrote:





snip
tery.


Great explanation. Thanks. But I am left asking "What is MOSSING?"

I do agree that battery had an intermittent issue, which apparently was
not occuring when it was placed on the tester.

One thing I wonder, does the movement of the vehicle such as bumps in
the road, cause those separators to move, and thus cause intermittent
shorts? There did not appear to be any pattern to the voltage drops,
they just occurred randomly. Yet I did notice them more on one local
stretch of road which tends to be a rough ride.






Yep, a loose or slipped separator would cause an intermittent problem on
a bumpy road.

To me, that seems like the most likely explanation.

A more obvious problem would have been an internal "hard short"
such as broken plates permanently touching. In that situation the
battery would have been about 10.5 volts no matter what

Did the problem go away after replacing the battery or no?

Maybe the brushes in the alternator are worn, and the test did not reveal this because it just happened to be working OK when tested. How many miles on it?

nate

On Sun, 14 Dec 2014 00:37:24 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 13 Dec 2014 21:33:31 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:


"Ashton Crusher" wrote in message
. ..
I don't know about Chevy but I know that FORD runs their voltmeters
from the computer and they ALWAYS read at the 14v mark until something
is SERIOUSLY wrong and then they drop down a lot lower. It's not
really a voltmeter, it's just a go-no go indicator just like an idiot
light. It tells you you have "good voltage" OR you have "bad
voltage". That is probably why you saw it fluctuating like you did,
because the battery was bad, but not because it was intermittently
bad, just because it was running right at the computers switch point
between bad and good. The way to verify if your voltmeter is a REAL
meter or just an idiot-meter is to run the car at idle, see where the
voltmeter needle points, and then turn on the headlights on high beam.
If the needle doesn't drop at least a volt or two it's just an idiot
gauge. A lot of cars temperature gauges are similarly set up although
not as go-no go but still computer controlled so the computer tries to
hides bad news till its really bad by restricting the needle so it's
not linear with temperature rise.. They are better then just an idiot
light but not as good as a true gauge.


That may explain it. I did not see how the voltage could go below 12.5
volts, and really how it could go much below 14 volts with the engine
running unless there was a loose connection. Unless the alternator was bad,
but with a new battery and no other changes, it would tend to eliminate the
alternator.



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In my long lifetime working with automobiles and auto electrics I
have never run across a voltmeter, ammeter, temperature guage, fuel
guage or speedometer that works as an "idiot guage" or "go no-go"
indicator.
Inhave seen MANY oli pressure "guages" that do. In fact the vast
majority of so-called oil pressure guages just tell you if the
pressure is higher or lower than 4 or 5 psig.

In my 99 Mustang I can put the whole cluster in TEST mode and drive
the car with it in TEST mode. I've done that. The first thing teh
computer does when it goes into test mode is to cycle the needles on
ALL the gauges thru their full range and then they go back to their
"normal" position. In other words, ALL the gauges are run by the
computer, none of them are actually directly connected to the sensors.
In addition, when it's in TEST mode the Trip Odometer displays the
actual sensor readings and you can cycle thru them all as well as some
P codes. Each time you push the odo reset button it cycles to the
next sensor.

So you can display the actual temperature on the Odo display while
watching the temp gauge. And you can see that the temp gauge needle
climbs as it warms up and when fully warmed up sits right exactly in
the middle. When it's warmed up the Odo reads 90. But on a hot day
in traffic you can see the odo readout of temp go up to 100 but the
needle for the temp gauge doesn't move off center. It's clear that
FORD had programmed the temperature gauge to read actual temperature
until it gets to 90 degrees and after that it holds the needle at mid
scale until presumably some much higher temperature is reached when,
again I have to presume as my car doesn't run hot enough to get to
this point, the computer will kick up the needle.

The voltmeter seems to be similarly computer controlled. You can
watch the voltage vary on the digital odo display as you rev the
engine and turn stuff on and off but the needle on the gauge never
moves. For the oil gauge there is no sensor, there's just the go-no
go switch that goes on at about 7 psi. The odo readout is either 0 or
255 representing an open switch or a closed one. If it's closed the
255 tells the computer to tell the gauge to go mid-scale. It never
goes higher, never goes lower except for when it first goes into TEST
mode where the computer makes it go all the way from 0 to full scale
in a nice smooth sweep and then back to zero. (it goes to zero if the
engine isn't running)

The gas gauge and Speedo and Tach are also run thru the computer but I
have no reason to think the readings are being "faked" like the temp
and volt readings get faked. It wouldn't make sense to fake the gas
and speed and tach readings....

As I understand it, if the IP cluster ever goes bad I have to have any
replacement programmed at the dealer to match my cars VIN or something
or it won't communicate with the computer and won't work.

On Sun, 14 Dec 2014 10:18:35 -0800 (PST), N8N wrote:

Did the problem go away after replacing the battery or no?

Yes, the new battery solved everything. It starts great and the voltage
is constant.