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Default Digital multimeter

On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 09:17:33 +0000 (UTC), wrote:

Jennifer Murphy wrote:
What should I look for in a digital multimeter for home use?


My opinion:

Must-haves:
AC volts to at least 300 V
DC volts to at least 100 V
AC and DC amps to 10 A, 15 A, or 20 A


I would lower this to Nice to Have. In 45 years, I've measured
current 4 or 5 times.

Ohms
Continuity beeper (might be part of the Ohms function)
Detachable test leads


Well, the cute little meters, maybe 1/2 inch thick by 3 x 4 inches,
that one can carry in a shirt pocket while viisting friends have
permenently attached leads. It's worth it to me so if I'm there for
dinnner and they have electrical problems, I can whip out my meter,
before my host can even get his from the workshop (if he even has a
workshop). This hasn't happened often, actually never, so the leads
aren't close to wearing out yet, but like my horse Trigger, I like
having it with me.

Nice-to-haves:
Auto-ranging
"Smart" ohms mode that will flip over into volts mode if you
accidentally probe a live circuit
Backlit LCD
Easy-to-get fuses
Easy-to-get batteries
Rubber case or holster
Hooks, straps, stands, etc.
Extra test leads, alligator clip attachments, etc.

Rationale:
Those voltage and current ranges will handle anything that a mild-
mannered homeowner will want to measure.

The continuity beeper is useful to figure out if a wire is broken or
shorted to another wire, or if an (unpowered) switch is closed or open,
without having to look at the meter.

The detachable test leads are because the leads *will* get beat up if
you use it a lot. 99% of meters use standard "banana" plugs on the
test leads, so any set of replacement leads will fit. This is kind of
an advanced use, but if you have a situation where you want to wire the
meter in for a while, you can buy banana plugs on your own and make a
custom set of leads.

However, detachable leads do make the meter more bulky; the "pocket"
meters tend not to have detachable leads. If you only use it once a
month or less, detachable leads are not such a big deal.

Auto-ranging means you just have to pick (say) "AC Volts" or "Ohms" and
the meter figures out the rest. Manual ranging means you have to choose
between (say) 4 V AC, 40 V AC, and 400 V AC ranges. It will say on the
package if it's auto-ranging, and also the big round switch on the front
will be simpler (fewer positions).

The backlit display is easier to read in the dark, which includes the
nooks and crannies of your furnace or washing machine. It uses a little
bit of battery life, though.

"Smart" ohms mode is because if you try to measure resistance on a
powered circuit, at best you'll get the wrong answer and at worst you'll
blow up the meter. Some meters detect this, beep, and flip themselves
over into measuring volts instead (which is safe for the meter).

Most all meters will have at least one internal fuse and a lot of them
have two. Eventually you *will* blow one of them, probably the amps
one. If it is a 15 A or 20 A ceramic 0.25" x 1.25" fuse, every Radio
Shack, hardware store, and electronics store in the US can supply them
(those fuses also get used in microwave ovens). If it's some weird size
of fuse, you'll have to go to an electronics store or order online. You
may have to look this up online; the packaging will say "fused for
protection", but the fuse *size* is probably only in the owner's manual.
Sometimes you get a spare fuse with the meter when new.

Most meters take a 9 V battery, but some take AAs or AAAs, and a few
take oddballs. In general the battery will last for at least several
months, and probably several years, so this isn't a super big deal. But
it's nice to be able to scrounge a battery from something else if the
meter goes dead at an inopportune time.

The case, holster, extra test leads just make it nicer to use, but
aren't *required*.

Tips:

If the test probes aren't already like this, it can help to cover all
but the last 1/8" (3 mm) or so of the metal probe tip, to avoid shorting
it out on nearby wires. You can use electrical tape, heat-shrink
tubing, or even stripped wire insulation if you can find some that is
a good force fit.

When you first get it, practice on some stuff you know the voltages of,
like flashlight batteries, a car battery, wall adapters for small
electronics, and stuff like that. You can even (very carefully) measure
your line voltage by sticking the probes in an electrical outlet.

If you get a manual-ranging one, and you have no idea what the answer
is going to be, always start on the highest range and work down. This
is less important than it was for an analog meter, but it's still nicer
for the meter to not ask it to measure something out of range.

A lot of time, the amps ranges will require that you move the red lead
over to a different socket. This is fine, but the *SECOND* you get done
using that range, move the red lead back over to its regular socket -
don't wait until later to move it back. The reason is that in the amps
range, the meter is nearly a dead short. It's *easy* to measure current
and then try to measure voltage without moving the lead back, and blow
the fuse in the meter. I've watched it being done and I've even done it
myself.

Any recommendations?


The one I use around the house is a Radio Shack 22-805, which I bought
around 1999 or 2000 because of its computer connection, but I don't use
that feature much now. It is a rebadged Metex meter. In Radio Shack's
current lineup, the 22-813 ($40) or 22-075 ($45) might do what you want.
Their 22-182 is a "pocket meter" style that is on sale for $20; that one
will get you through a lot, but if I was going to buy only one meter
from Radio Shack, I'd go for one of the other two.

My "daily driver" in my field toolbox for a long time has been a Sperry
DM8400, which I bought probably at Home Depot in about 1997. The
closest meter to that in their current lineup is probably the DM5300,
which is about $80. Their lower-priced meters may be worth a look if
they are easily available in your area.

I used to work with college students and they were unable to kill the
two Fluke 12 multimeters we had, even though they tried. The only odd
thing I ever noticed about these was that when the "low battery"
indicator came on, the calibration would be off; replacing the 9 V
battery made everything work right again. The closest current model is
the Fluke 113, but it sells for about $120; I don't think they have any
meters under this price.

I hope this helps!

Matt Roberds


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Default Digital multimeter / HF head lamp

On 12/12/2013 5:05 AM, micky wrote:

I also gave even more of them the HF headlamp when it was on sale real
cheap, but that might not have been such a good idea. If they don't
use it, the batteries will leak. (and I don't even use mine.) And a
few years later, LEDs got good enough to make a better light (still
with batteries that might leak.)


Years ago, Nite Ize had LED conversions for mini
mag flash light. They fit nicely into the black
and yellow HF head lamp. The one that takes two
AA cells. Makes for a good light, with AA cells
that last longer than AAA cells. Just have to
pull out the bi pin bulb, and break out the
provided reflector. Fits nicely into the lamp
with the Nite Ize reflector inside the HF plastic
lens.

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Default Digital multimeter

Jennifer,

Most cheap digitals work fairly well. Look at the leads. You want robust
leads and good probes. I also favor auto-ranging. Spend around $30.

Dave M.


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Default Digital multimeter

On 12/11/2013 6:04 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
"Dean " wrote in message
...


Is there a digital equivalent of a Wiggy? Is induced voltage any
concern for most household use?


Something close is the Fluke T2. It has 2 leads attached. Just hook it up;
and some leds will light up. It will indicate from 6 volts to 600.
Indicate a short/or low ohms between the leads. I don't think they make it
any more, but there may be an equal tester.

Very seldom is the induced voltage any problem around the house, but it can
be.

Where I worked we had thousands of wires in conduits and it was a very great
problem.
The company would buy any meter I wanted and I had several Flukes, but often
carried the old Simpson 260 analog due to the induced voltage problem. It
would often show something, but only about half of what I expected to see if
I was getting a true voltage.

There are some meters out that have a button or special position to help on
the induced voltage problem now. Sometimes I made my own by placing a
resistor across the meter leads.


For a Fluke, there is
http://en-us.fluke.com/products/acce...uke-sv225.html
which plugs in between the meter and leads and provides a lower
resistance. Probably works with other meters with the same lead spacing
and plugs.



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Default Digital multimeter

On 12/11/2013 10:10 PM, nestork wrote:

Fluke meters are great, but a lot of what you're paying for is the fact
that they read true RMS voltage, which takes a little bit of electronic
circuitry that a $10 meter doesn't have.


A lot of the cost is making the meter safe if you make a mistake on high
capacity circuits, as in one of Ralph's posts. A real good idea if you
are working in service panels or somewhere other than on the end of a
20A branch circuit.


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Default Digital multimeter

The Sears insert that came with today's paper shows a combination deal
of a digital multimeter and AC voltage probe for $14.99 ("Save $12");
item number is 03482146.

Perce


On 12/11/13 09:36 am, I wrote:

What should I look for in a digital multimeter for home use? I'd like to
spend less than $50, if possible, but would be willing to spend more if
it makes a big difference for home use.

Any recommendations?


The one I use most came from Sears when it was on sale many years back.
Has a rubber case with a fold-out stand. I still see similar (if not
identical) ones in the Sears fliers from time to time. I'm pretty sure
they are less than $50.


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Default Digital multimeter

On 12/12/2013 4:01 AM, micky wrote:
On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 01:47:14 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:



I just gave a customer a cheap Harbor Freight DMM and showed him how to
use it to check the polarity of the power supply splice/links to the
wireless IP cameras he wanted to install himself. $5.00 to avoid damage
to equipment is a good investment. ^_^

TDD


At that price you can give them away and the customer probably feels
important, even better than having his first power tool, especially a
power saw. A very good way to please customers, I'll bet.

I think a lot of people think meters are beyond them, so if they learn
how, that puts them way ahead of those still out there who don't know
what to do with them.


The nice fellow works as a millwright on industrial shutdowns so he
winds up working nights and when people came on his property and stole
his stuff, he decided to put up some wireless IP cameras. I can't climb
ladders anymore so he wanted to install the cameras himself and to do so
required splicing more wire into the feed from the wall plug mounted
power supplies so I showed him how to test the DC power at the small
power plug before plugging it into the camera. Anyway, I worked on his
computer and DVR setting it up while he did the monkey work. ^_^

TDD
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Default Digital multimeter

On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 05:25:02 -0500, micky
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 05:22:12 -0800, Jennifer Murphy
wrote:

What should I look for in a digital multimeter for home use? I'd like to
spend less than $50, if possible, but would be willing to spend more if
it makes a big difference for home use.

Any recommendations?


BTW, afaik all meters cheap or expensive, unless maybe it was
home-built, have a clever circuit, (whose name I forget. It looks like
a 4-sided diamond) , that makes the read-out the same, even when the
voltage of the battery inside is going down.


It took 4 1/2 hours but it came to me. It's called a Wheatstone
bridge. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheatstone_bridge

A) It uses the values and ratios of 3 known resistors to measure an
unknown resistance, and in a meter, since the ratios don't change with
voltage, the value of an unknown (external) resistance, is not
dependant on the votage of the battery.

However the url above only says "Variations on the Wheatstone bridge
can be used to measure capacitance, inductance, impedance and other
quantities," and "The concept was extended to alternating current
measurements" and doesn't mention voltage or DC current.

In fact, a few lines up it says "If all four resistor values and the
supply voltage (VS) are known, ....the voltage across the bridge (VG)
can be found by working out the voltage from each potential divider
and subtracting one from the other. " which implies that voltage
measurements are dependant on knowing the battery voltage.

So maybe I was wrong, except wrt resistance and AC current (and very
few meters measure AC current.)

^^Impedance is much like resistance, measured in ohms, but it's used
for coils and caps, where it depends on frequency. If the frequency
is 0, like it is with a battery, caps will have infinited impedance,
but coils will have the impedance of a resistor made with the same
length of the same wire.

Still, I've never read a warning that measurements are inaccurate as
the battery weakens, and the guys who design these things are pretty
clever, so I'm not giving up on the notion that, until the battery is
almost dead, the voltage of the battery doesn't matter. Anyone know?




When the battery is
almost dead (1.3 or 1.4 volts for a nominal 1.5 volt battery) it
won't work but if it's 1.47, which might be 80% discharged, the
reading should be the same as with a new battery.

Meters don't use much current, so they might work with batteries that
don't work in a portable radio with an actual speaker. (radios that
drive headphones don't need so much power so I'm not comparing with
them.)

I'm sure some people here will take issue with some of this. It's
true that my numbers are only educated guesses.


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Default Digital multimeter

On 12/11/2013 08:56 AM, Snag wrote:
Jennifer Murphy wrote:
What should I look for in a digital multimeter for home use? I'd like
to spend less than $50, if possible, but would be willing to spend
more if it makes a big difference for home use.

Any recommendations?



Radio Shack has several digital and analog multimeters for well under your
price range . Tell the guy/gal there what you want to do with it , if you're
lucky they might even be knowledgeable enough to help you select one . From
my home repair experience I suggest you look for AC voltage ranges from ~20
volts to 600 , DC voltages the same for the cars and low voltage lighting
systems and resistance ranges that include one that beeps if you have
continuity .


Autoranging is nice if you did not learn to use an old school meter
where you'd start at the highest range and work down.

If you don't need autoranging Harbor Freight has an adequate one that is
usually $5-6.

nate

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Default Digital multimeter

On 12/12/2013 10:34 AM, micky wrote:
On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 05:25:02 -0500, micky
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 05:22:12 -0800, Jennifer Murphy
wrote:

What should I look for in a digital multimeter for home use? I'd like to
spend less than $50, if possible, but would be willing to spend more if
it makes a big difference for home use.

Any recommendations?


BTW, afaik all meters cheap or expensive, unless maybe it was
home-built, have a clever circuit, (whose name I forget. It looks like
a 4-sided diamond) , that makes the read-out the same, even when the
voltage of the battery inside is going down.


It took 4 1/2 hours but it came to me. It's called a Wheatstone
bridge. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheatstone_bridge

A) It uses the values and ratios of 3 known resistors to measure an
unknown resistance, and in a meter, since the ratios don't change with
voltage, the value of an unknown (external) resistance, is not
dependant on the votage of the battery.

However the url above only says "Variations on the Wheatstone bridge
can be used to measure capacitance, inductance, impedance and other
quantities," and "The concept was extended to alternating current
measurements" and doesn't mention voltage or DC current.

In fact, a few lines up it says "If all four resistor values and the
supply voltage (VS) are known, ....the voltage across the bridge (VG)
can be found by working out the voltage from each potential divider
and subtracting one from the other. " which implies that voltage
measurements are dependant on knowing the battery voltage.

So maybe I was wrong, except wrt resistance and AC current (and very
few meters measure AC current.)

^^Impedance is much like resistance, measured in ohms, but it's used
for coils and caps, where it depends on frequency. If the frequency
is 0, like it is with a battery, caps will have infinited impedance,
but coils will have the impedance of a resistor made with the same
length of the same wire.

Still, I've never read a warning that measurements are inaccurate as
the battery weakens, and the guys who design these things are pretty
clever, so I'm not giving up on the notion that, until the battery is
almost dead, the voltage of the battery doesn't matter. Anyone know?


For what it's worth, I'm using NiMH rechargeable batteries in my Fluke
meters (1.2V nominal/cell as opposed to 1.5V/cell for alkaline) I'm
using a Tenergy Centura brand 7 cell/8.4V "9V" battery instead of the 6
cell 9V alkaline specified; I have noticed no inaccuracies in resistance
readings.

I'm also using a Tenergy Centura D cell and similar "9V" battery in my
Simpson 260 with no issues, but on the 260 you need to zero the meter
every time you change resistance ranges anyway. However I suspect that
it uses a similar circuit as the relative knob position ends up about
the same for both alkalines and NiMH.

As an aside I've been happy after switching over to NiMH; hopefully I
will not buy any more cells/batteries unless I buy more devices for a
good long time.

nate

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Default Digital multimeter

Tony Hwang wrote:
Nate Nagel wrote:
On 12/11/2013 08:56 AM, Snag wrote:
Jennifer Murphy wrote:
What should I look for in a digital multimeter for home use? I'd like
to spend less than $50, if possible, but would be willing to spend
more if it makes a big difference for home use.

Any recommendations?


Radio Shack has several digital and analog multimeters for well
under your
price range . Tell the guy/gal there what you want to do with it , if
you're
lucky they might even be knowledgeable enough to help you select one .
From
my home repair experience I suggest you look for AC voltage ranges
from ~20
volts to 600 , DC voltages the same for the cars and low voltage
lighting
systems and resistance ranges that include one that beeps if you have
continuity .


Autoranging is nice if you did not learn to use an old school meter
where you'd start at the highest range and work down.

If you don't need autoranging Harbor Freight has an adequate one that is
usually $5-6.

nate

Hmmm,
I perused eBay for Wavtek or Fluke for around 50.00. There were quite
a few new and used ones for ~50.00. Thought that was pretty good deal for
dependaable well built meters with decent accuracy RMS voltage reading
,etc. Good chance it'll last life time.



Get a Sperry with a capacitor tester for about $60. May save you a
couple hundred if your A/C quits.
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Default Digital multimeter

Nate Nagel wrote:
On 12/11/2013 08:56 AM, Snag wrote:
Jennifer Murphy wrote:
What should I look for in a digital multimeter for home use? I'd like
to spend less than $50, if possible, but would be willing to spend
more if it makes a big difference for home use.

Any recommendations?



Radio Shack has several digital and analog multimeters for well
under your
price range . Tell the guy/gal there what you want to do with it , if
you're
lucky they might even be knowledgeable enough to help you select one .
From
my home repair experience I suggest you look for AC voltage ranges
from ~20
volts to 600 , DC voltages the same for the cars and low voltage
lighting
systems and resistance ranges that include one that beeps if you have
continuity .


Autoranging is nice if you did not learn to use an old school meter
where you'd start at the highest range and work down.

If you don't need autoranging Harbor Freight has an adequate one that is
usually $5-6.

nate

Hmmm,
I perused eBay for Wavtek or Fluke for around 50.00. There were quite a
few new and used ones for ~50.00. Thought that was pretty good deal for
dependaable well built meters with decent accuracy RMS voltage reading
,etc. Good chance it'll last life time.
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"gregz" wrote in message ...
that I have a true need for that any time soon.

Led display ?

Greg


Um, fatal voltage input. So, sort of. :-)
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Default Digital multimeter

On 12/12/2013 01:19 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:
Nate Nagel wrote:
On 12/11/2013 08:56 AM, Snag wrote:
Jennifer Murphy wrote:
What should I look for in a digital multimeter for home use? I'd like
to spend less than $50, if possible, but would be willing to spend
more if it makes a big difference for home use.

Any recommendations?


Radio Shack has several digital and analog multimeters for well
under your
price range . Tell the guy/gal there what you want to do with it , if
you're
lucky they might even be knowledgeable enough to help you select one .
From
my home repair experience I suggest you look for AC voltage ranges
from ~20
volts to 600 , DC voltages the same for the cars and low voltage
lighting
systems and resistance ranges that include one that beeps if you have
continuity .


Autoranging is nice if you did not learn to use an old school meter
where you'd start at the highest range and work down.

If you don't need autoranging Harbor Freight has an adequate one that is
usually $5-6.

nate

Hmmm,
I perused eBay for Wavtek or Fluke for around 50.00. There were quite a
few new and used ones for ~50.00. Thought that was pretty good deal for
dependaable well built meters with decent accuracy RMS voltage reading
,etc. Good chance it'll last life time.


Undoubtedly. Many people don't use a multimeter often enough or require
enough accuracy/precision in readings to make it worth buying a Fluke
however. I do agree that if willing to spend the money, Fluke, Agilent,
etc. are excellent tools.

nate

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On Wednesday, December 11, 2013 7:22:12 AM UTC-6, Jennifer Murphy wrote:
What should I look for in a digital multimeter for home use? I'd like to

spend less than $50, if possible, but would be willing to spend more if

it makes a big difference for home use.



Any recommendations?


Explain the differences between vAC, vDC, RMS, current, and ohms .









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Default Digital multimeter

On 12/12/2013 1:43 PM, Daring Dufas : A Sock Of Killer Loon wrote:
On Wednesday, December 11, 2013 7:22:12 AM UTC-6, Jennifer Murphy
wrote:
What should I look for in a digital multimeter for home use? I'd
like to

spend less than $50, if possible, but would be willing to spend
more if

it makes a big difference for home use.



Any recommendations?


Explain the differences between vAC, vDC, RMS, current, and ohms .


Killer Loon, living proof that human females should never have sex with
farm animals. ^_^

TDD

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gregz wrote:
micky wrote:
On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 05:22:12 -0800, Jennifer Murphy
wrote:

What should I look for in a digital multimeter for home use? I'd like to
spend less than $50, if possible, but would be willing to spend more if
it makes a big difference for home use.

Any recommendations?


Also, you should make or buy some wires with alligator clips on both
ends. RAdio shack has a bag of 10, in 5 colors, for 4 or 5 dollars.
You use one to clip one test wires in place, and then you only have to
worry about the other test lead. There are 100 uses for these
things. Once when a wire in my car's wiring harness broke, I used a
3 foot jumper wire to get home. I didnt' bother replacing it, and
used it until the car died 3 years later. Then I took it off.

I've never had a harbor frieight meter break or any probelm with
insulation up to 117 vac house current. I havent' measured higher
than that lately.

Some meters have a separate place to test batteries, which provides a
load and is better than using the regular 20 volt scale but not that
much better. All you need to know is that batteries retain most o
ftheir voltage until they're almost dead. So if a 1.5 volt cell reads
1.3 volts, it's worthless, 1.4 almost worthless, 1.45 not worth much.


First of all, if you ever buy a Set of crimped alligator leads, take time
and solder each FIRST. They will fail passing current otherwise at some
time.

I have used many meters, and have many meters. Some are broke. Some need
fuses. I like $400 fluke meters. My current grab and go is this".....

http://www.harborfreight.com/5-in-1-...ter-98674.html

Greg


For complicated things and even high voltages, I still have analog, VTVM.
ESR meter for caps. Right, vacuum tube. Good for measuring leakage
resistance over 100 M.

My triplet goes a few KV.

Autorange is good if you can put it on manual.

I used to use the fluke snap on adaptors. Spike points, they really dug
into the metal. handy most always for resistance.

Greg
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Default Digital multimeter

"Jennifer Murphy" wrote in message ...
What should I look for in a digital multimeter for home use? I'd like to
spend less than $50, if possible, but would be willing to spend more if
it makes a big difference for home use.

Any recommendations?


Digital is easy to read but unless I'm doing hi spec work, I prefer the old analog type. For one think, it's easier to see changes in reading with the needle swinging back and forth. If you every want to check the engine error codes, I can be difficult to do it with a digital meter.

$5-30 should get you something decent. I bought one at Radio Shack about 10 years ago for $25 that I could connect to a computer and record a time trace.


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On 12/12/2013 11:44 PM, Guv Bob wrote:
"Jennifer Murphy" wrote in message
...
What should I look for in a digital multimeter for home use? I'd
like to spend less than $50, if possible, but would be willing to
spend more if it makes a big difference for home use.

Any recommendations?


Digital is easy to read but unless I'm doing hi spec work, I prefer
the old analog type. For one think, it's easier to see changes in
reading with the needle swinging back and forth. If you every want
to check the engine error codes, I can be difficult to do it with a
digital meter.

$5-30 should get you something decent. I bought one at Radio Shack
about 10 years ago for $25 that I could connect to a computer and
record a time trace.


One of my LCD meters has a bar beneath the numbers and it moves like a
needle on an analog meter. It's a Beckman Industrial RMS225 that I've
owned for many years. I believe it came out in 1990 and it's been a very
good meter in my collection of test equipment. Here's a picture of one
like mine without the rubber case that mine has but the one pictured
in the link has the Wavetk name on it. ^_^

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/WAVETEK-RMS225-DIGITAL-MULTIMETER-/00/s/MTYwMFgxMDY2/$(KGrHqVHJDEE-Pd2NeuRBPqU2WSuhw~~60_57.JPG

http://preview.tinyurl.com/kf5cyr4

http://preview.tinyurl.com/n3tkwds

TDD
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Default Digital multimeter

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 05:22:12 -0800, Jennifer Murphy
wrote:

What should I look for in a digital multimeter for home use? I'd like to
spend less than $50, if possible, but would be willing to spend more if
it makes a big difference for home use.

Any recommendations?


Digital meters are great for someone who works on electronics. But for
home use, such as measuring AC voltage. or 12volt car stuff, I much
prefer an analog meter. Digitals like to pick up stray voltages and
give oddball readings. I like to have a continuity buzzer that beeps.
Nice feature. I have a quality Fluke digital meter for electronics, but
for simple around the house stuff, I have a cheap analog meter that I
believe I got at Walmart for around $12. A advocate buying quality
tools, but those low cost meters seem to work just as well, and if you
accidentally blow them up, by testing an AC outlet in the Ohm's scale,
you are not out much money. It's easy to forget to change the switch
and blow them up.

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That is bull **** .." stray " what?
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Default Digital multimeter

On 12/14/2013 3:56 PM, Daring Dufas : A Sock Of Killer Loon wrote:
That is bull **** .." stray " what?


Killer Loon, living proof that human females should never have sex with
farm animals. ^_^

TDD
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