I need some advice please.

I recently had a Carrier Heat Pump installed. The air conditioner works
perfect. Now we are into fall and I noticed that even though the
temps are still above 47 degrees, my auxiliary heat would come on. Most
of the time, it would stay on for three minutes, then go off. It is my
understanding it should not come on until it is below 35 degrees.

The Carrier tech came out and locked it out at 35 degrees, so I should
be OK now. I wasn't aware that this could be done.

He asked me if I wanted to have the Auxiliary Heat indicator turned off
on the thermostat. I said sure. Now, I am wondering if I did the right
thing. If it is still not working properly I have no way of knowing.

What would you do? Have the man come back and adjust it so the aux
light indicator comes back on, or just leave it? I would do it myself,
but I believe he disconnected a wire at the back of the thermostat, and
I don't feel comfortable messing with the electrical wires.

Many thanks!

Kadee

On 11/09/2013 01:51 AM, Kate wrote:
I need some advice please.

I recently had a Carrier Heat Pump installed. The air conditioner works
perfect. Now we are into fall and I noticed that even though the
temps are still above 47 degrees, my auxiliary heat would come on. Most
of the time, it would stay on for three minutes, then go off. It is my
understanding it should not come on until it is below 35 degrees.

The Carrier tech came out and locked it out at 35 degrees, so I should
be OK now. I wasn't aware that this could be done.

He asked me if I wanted to have the Auxiliary Heat indicator turned off
on the thermostat. I said sure. Now, I am wondering if I did the right
thing. If it is still not working properly I have no way of knowing.

What would you do? Have the man come back and adjust it so the aux
light indicator comes back on, or just leave it? I would do it myself,
but I believe he disconnected a wire at the back of the thermostat, and
I don't feel comfortable messing with the electrical wires.

Many thanks!

Kadee



You /do/ want the indicator on to keep you informed.


Also , where are you located? Heat pumps are not a great idea if you
live in the US Northern states.

On Fri, 08 Nov 2013 23:51:13 -0800, Kate wrote:


What would you do? Have the man come back and adjust it so the aux
light indicator comes back on, or just leave it? I would do it myself,
but I believe he disconnected a wire at the back of the thermostat, and
I don't feel comfortable messing with the electrical wires.

If you're going to own a house, you should learn to be comfortable
with low voltage wires. if it's a new thermostat, you have the
instructions for it, right?

I think the thermostat uses 14 volts but even if it's 20, you can't
hurt yourself with that even if you held the wires in your wet hands.
Even if you put them all in your mouth (though I'm not recommending
that.) You'd get a tingle and your tongue would jerk back, but even
if you could force your tongue to stay there, I don' tthink you could
hurt anything. (I don't force my tongue to stay on even low votlage
electric wirees.) Just write down what color wire went to what
number screw before you disconnect anything (you shouldnb't have to
disconnect anything, unless it's just one wire that goes somewhere
else. More likely there will be an unconnected wire you have to
connect. Also learn to make drawings, of all the screws with what
color wire goes to each. Drawings are very important. It's easy to
forget without them.

Do the instructions say which wire goes to the light indicator? If
not call the guy and ask him and tell him you a) didn't have enough
time to give a good answer (if you want to sort of blame him) or b)
you made a mistake when you told him to disconnect the light (maybe a
better approach since people like humility) And you'd be happy to
connect it yourself if he'd tell you which wire and which screw. If
he says he will do it, ask the charge. He may say free, esp. if he is
near your house at times. If he wants more than you want to pay, say
you canb't allocate more money to this, and maybe he'll do it for free
or at least he'll answer your question.

On Saturday, November 9, 2013 6:19:40 AM UTC-5, philo* wrote:
On 11/09/2013 01:51 AM, Kate wrote:

I need some advice please.



I recently had a Carrier Heat Pump installed. The air conditioner works

perfect. Now we are into fall and I noticed that even though the

temps are still above 47 degrees, my auxiliary heat would come on. Most

of the time, it would stay on for three minutes, then go off. It is my

understanding it should not come on until it is below 35 degrees.



The Carrier tech came out and locked it out at 35 degrees, so I should

be OK now. I wasn't aware that this could be done.



He asked me if I wanted to have the Auxiliary Heat indicator turned off

on the thermostat. I said sure. Now, I am wondering if I did the right

thing. If it is still not working properly I have no way of knowing.



What would you do? Have the man come back and adjust it so the aux

light indicator comes back on, or just leave it? I would do it myself,

but I believe he disconnected a wire at the back of the thermostat, and

I don't feel comfortable messing with the electrical wires.



Many thanks!



Kadee







You /do/ want the indicator on to keep you informed.





Also , where are you located? Heat pumps are not a great idea if you

live in the US Northern states.

You have to wonder about the competence of an installer
that would put in a new heatpump system where it puts
on auxillary heat when it's 47 outside. And maybe the
design of a system or thermostat where it puts it on for
3 minutes at all. What does it figure out in 3 minutes that
it didn't know to begin with? Maybe that it is generating
sufficient heat from just the pump. But it should be able
to figure that out with just a temp sensor on the outside
unit.

Whether she can figure out where the wire goes and do it
herself, IDK. If it's a commonly available thermostat, there
should be install instructions on the web. However if it's
a Carrier one that's only dealer installed, etc, may not be
able to find it.

I would definitely want the indicator on. Can't imagine
why she told him to take it off. That he wanted to take
it off is yet another sign to me that I wouldn't want this
guy installing anything for me.

On 11/9/2013 6:45 AM, micky wrote:

If you're going to own a house, you should learn to be comfortable
with low voltage wires. if it's a new thermostat, you have the
instructions for it, right?

I think the thermostat uses 14 volts but even if it's 20, you can't
hurt yourself with that even if you held the wires in your wet hands.
Even if you put them all in your mouth (though I'm not recommending
that.) You'd get a tingle and your tongue would jerk back, but even
if you could force your tongue to stay there, I don' tthink you could
hurt anything. (I don't force my tongue to stay on even low votlage
electric wirees.) Just write down what color wire went to what
number screw before you disconnect anything (you shouldnb't have to
disconnect anything, unless it's just one wire that goes somewhere
else. More likely there will be an unconnected wire you have to
connect. Also learn to make drawings, of all the screws with what
color wire goes to each. Drawings are very important. It's easy to
forget without them.

Do the instructions say which wire goes to the light indicator? If
not call the guy and ask him and tell him you a) didn't have enough
time to give a good answer (if you want to sort of blame him) or b)
you made a mistake when you told him to disconnect the light (maybe a
better approach since people like humility) And you'd be happy to
connect it yourself if he'd tell you which wire and which screw. If
he says he will do it, ask the charge. He may say free, esp. if he is
near your house at times. If he wants more than you want to pay, say
you canb't allocate more money to this, and maybe he'll do it for free
or at least he'll answer your question.


Might want to do some research before encouraging others
to start working on their own wiring. I installed furnaces
for six years, and all the low voltage thermostats I did
were nominal 24 VAC, and often you'd see 26 or 27 on a VOM.
Since you don't know the typical low voltage for stats, do
you REALLY think you should tell people to work on them....
--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 11/9/2013 2:51 AM, Kate wrote:
I need some advice please.

I recently had a Carrier Heat Pump installed. The air conditioner works
perfect. Now we are into fall and I noticed that even though the
temps are still above 47 degrees, my auxiliary heat would come on. Most
of the time, it would stay on for three minutes, then go off. It is my
understanding it should not come on until it is below 35 degrees.

The Carrier tech came out and locked it out at 35 degrees, so I should
be OK now. I wasn't aware that this could be done.

He asked me if I wanted to have the Auxiliary Heat indicator turned off
on the thermostat. I said sure. Now, I am wondering if I did the right
thing. If it is still not working properly I have no way of knowing.

What would you do? Have the man come back and adjust it so the aux
light indicator comes back on, or just leave it? I would do it myself,
but I believe he disconnected a wire at the back of the thermostat, and
I don't feel comfortable messing with the electrical wires.

Many thanks!

Kadee
I'm wondering if this could be defrost cycle. The 3 minute thing sounds
like it might be. On my HP/propane furnace, it will sometime, but not
always do that, and then switch back to straight HP. Actually, the unit
is running in AC mode using the aux heat (propane in my case) to
evaporate any ice on the outside unit. I think the unit guesses, based
one outside temp and maybe other factors, how often to de-ice. Much
depends on the outside humidity, too. In my case, it seems to do it way
too much, but the alternative, ice build up, wouldn't be good. So I
figure they error on the side of safety.

On Saturday, November 9, 2013 7:54:59 AM UTC-5, Art Todesco wrote:
On 11/9/2013 2:51 AM, Kate wrote:

I need some advice please.



I recently had a Carrier Heat Pump installed. The air conditioner works

perfect. Now we are into fall and I noticed that even though the

temps are still above 47 degrees, my auxiliary heat would come on. Most

of the time, it would stay on for three minutes, then go off. It is my

understanding it should not come on until it is below 35 degrees.



The Carrier tech came out and locked it out at 35 degrees, so I should

be OK now. I wasn't aware that this could be done.



He asked me if I wanted to have the Auxiliary Heat indicator turned off

on the thermostat. I said sure. Now, I am wondering if I did the right

thing. If it is still not working properly I have no way of knowing.



What would you do? Have the man come back and adjust it so the aux

light indicator comes back on, or just leave it? I would do it myself,

but I believe he disconnected a wire at the back of the thermostat, and

I don't feel comfortable messing with the electrical wires.



Many thanks!



Kadee

I'm wondering if this could be defrost cycle. The 3 minute thing sounds

like it might be.

Two things. It's my understanding that heat pumps just
reverse the compressor flow to heat the outside coil for
defrosting. Do they turn on aux heat at the inside
unit while doing that? I never really thought about it
but I guess it might be needed. Otherwise you'd get cold
air blowing into the house. So the short 3 min aux heat
cycle sounds like it could be that.

But even if that is the case and it was set wrong, it
seems kind of strange to have the defrost cycle even
able to be set at 47F and above, no? You would think that
the setting range would be a lot lower to avoid problems
like this.





On my HP/propane furnace, it will sometime, but not

always do that, and then switch back to straight HP. Actually, the unit

is running in AC mode using the aux heat (propane in my case) to

evaporate any ice on the outside unit. I think the unit guesses, based

one outside temp and maybe other factors, how often to de-ice. Much

depends on the outside humidity, too. In my case, it seems to do it way

too much, but the alternative, ice build up, wouldn't be good. So I

figure they error on the side of safety.

On 11/8/2013 11:51 PM, Kate wrote:
I need some advice please.

I recently had a Carrier Heat Pump installed. The air conditioner works
perfect. Now we are into fall and I noticed that even though the
temps are still above 47 degrees, my auxiliary heat would come on. Most
of the time, it would stay on for three minutes, then go off. It is my
understanding it should not come on until it is below 35 degrees.

The Carrier tech came out and locked it out at 35 degrees, so I should
be OK now. I wasn't aware that this could be done.

He asked me if I wanted to have the Auxiliary Heat indicator turned off
on the thermostat. I said sure. Now, I am wondering if I did the right
thing. If it is still not working properly I have no way of knowing.

What would you do? Have the man come back and adjust it so the aux light
indicator comes back on, or just leave it? I would do it myself, but I
believe he disconnected a wire at the back of the thermostat, and I
don't feel comfortable messing with the electrical wires.

Many thanks!

Kadee
IT really depends on your thermostat. We had a new heatpump with
electric backup heat installed in a rental property a couple of years
ago. A new programmable thermostat was included. We discovered that the
backup heat would come on if the thermostat discovered the room
temperature was more than 2 degrees lower than the set point of the
thermostat.

We had the same type programmable thermostat installed in our current
mfg. home with heat pump. Same thing with the thermostat. More than one
degree difference and the backup heat comes on.

The reason is efficiency. The least cost heating is to maintain the same
temperature night and day. The heat pump will do this best when the set
temperature and the room temperature remain the same.

Set your thermostat to the temperature you want, for every day of the
week, both night and day. A one degree lower night temp will keep the
backup off, but will run the heatpump steady until the house temp comes
up to the daytime temp.

The heating company will not tell you this up front.

Paul

Kate wrote:
I need some advice please.

I recently had a Carrier Heat Pump installed. The air conditioner
works perfect. Now we are into fall and I noticed that even though
the temps are still above 47 degrees, my auxiliary heat would come on.
Most of the time, it would stay on for three minutes, then go off. It is
my understanding it should not come on until it is below 35
degrees.
The Carrier tech came out and locked it out at 35 degrees, so I should
be OK now. I wasn't aware that this could be done.

He asked me if I wanted to have the Auxiliary Heat indicator turned
off on the thermostat. I said sure. Now, I am wondering if I did
the right thing. If it is still not working properly I have no way
of knowing.
What would you do? Have the man come back and adjust it so the aux
light indicator comes back on, or just leave it? I would do it
myself, but I believe he disconnected a wire at the back of the
thermostat, and I don't feel comfortable messing with the electrical
wires.
Many thanks!

Kadee

I think you should have him come back out and reset it so the aux indicator
light comes on. Should be no big deal and since it is a new system they
should have no problem doing that for you. Even if you could figure out how
to do that change yourself, I think that you would be better off having the
installation company tech do it. That way, they won't be able to say that
you messed something up by working on it yourself (even if you didn't).

Also, there is an alt.hvac Usenet newsgroup in case you want to try your
post there. It used to be an awful group full of nasty morons, but lately it
seems more sane and sometimes helpful.

Let us know what you end up doing and what the outcome is on this.

On Saturday, November 9, 2013 10:53:16 AM UTC-5, Paul Drahn wrote:
On 11/8/2013 11:51 PM, Kate wrote:

I need some advice please.



I recently had a Carrier Heat Pump installed. The air conditioner works

perfect. Now we are into fall and I noticed that even though the

temps are still above 47 degrees, my auxiliary heat would come on. Most

of the time, it would stay on for three minutes, then go off. It is my

understanding it should not come on until it is below 35 degrees.



The Carrier tech came out and locked it out at 35 degrees, so I should

be OK now. I wasn't aware that this could be done.



He asked me if I wanted to have the Auxiliary Heat indicator turned off

on the thermostat. I said sure. Now, I am wondering if I did the right

thing. If it is still not working properly I have no way of knowing.



What would you do? Have the man come back and adjust it so the aux light

indicator comes back on, or just leave it? I would do it myself, but I

believe he disconnected a wire at the back of the thermostat, and I

don't feel comfortable messing with the electrical wires.



Many thanks!



Kadee

IT really depends on your thermostat. We had a new heatpump with

electric backup heat installed in a rental property a couple of years

ago. A new programmable thermostat was included. We discovered that the

backup heat would come on if the thermostat discovered the room

temperature was more than 2 degrees lower than the set point of the

thermostat.



We had the same type programmable thermostat installed in our current

mfg. home with heat pump. Same thing with the thermostat. More than one

degree difference and the backup heat comes on.



The reason is efficiency. The least cost heating is to maintain the same

temperature night and day.

Only if aux heat, eg electric has to kick in to get the temp
back up. Otherwise, with say a nat gas or oil furnace, cost is lower
if you set it back at night. If you can't set it back, then
you're going to be needing to supply more heat to the house
to keep it maintained constantly. That's a negative.





The heat pump will do this best when the set

temperature and the room temperature remain the same.



Set your thermostat to the temperature you want, for every day of the

week, both night and day. A one degree lower night temp will keep the

backup off, but will run the heatpump steady until the house temp comes

up to the daytime temp.



The heating company will not tell you this up front.


Paul

On Sat, 9 Nov 2013 11:12:41 -0500, "TomR" wrote:

I think you should have him come back out and reset it so the aux indicator
light comes on. Should be no big deal and since it is a new system they
should have no problem doing that for you. Even if you could figure out how
to do that change yourself, I think that you would be better off having the
installation company tech do it. That way, they won't be able to say that
you messed something up by working on it yourself (even if you didn't).


I agree with Tom. The unit is recent new, likely still under warranty
- call the Tech back for a chat.

Also, there is an alt.hvac Usenet newsgroup in case you want to try your
post there. It used to be an awful group full of nasty morons, but lately it
seems more sane and sometimes helpful.


"Don't throw me in that Briar Patch!"

Let us know what you end up doing and what the outcome is on this.

On Fri, 08 Nov 2013 23:51:13 -0800, Kate wrote:

I need some advice please.

I recently had a Carrier Heat Pump installed. The air conditioner works
perfect. Now we are into fall and I noticed that even though the
temps are still above 47 degrees, my auxiliary heat would come on. Most
of the time, it would stay on for three minutes, then go off. It is my
understanding it should not come on until it is below 35 degrees.

The Carrier tech came out and locked it out at 35 degrees, so I should
be OK now. I wasn't aware that this could be done.

He asked me if I wanted to have the Auxiliary Heat indicator turned off
on the thermostat. I said sure. Now, I am wondering if I did the right
thing. If it is still not working properly I have no way of knowing.

What would you do? Have the man come back and adjust it so the aux
light indicator comes back on, or just leave it? I would do it myself,
but I believe he disconnected a wire at the back of the thermostat, and
I don't feel comfortable messing with the electrical wires.

I'd want to know but that's your decision.

Smart thermostats can control the aux heat usage. Mine is set up to
run without aux for two hours before turning it on[*]. It would be
better to know the outside temperature but I don't have that option.
[*]it might be set up to disable aux heat completely now - can't
remember how I left it

On Sat, 09 Nov 2013 07:28:47 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 11/9/2013 6:45 AM, micky wrote:

If you're going to own a house, you should learn to be comfortable
with low voltage wires. if it's a new thermostat, you have the
instructions for it, right?

I think the thermostat uses 14 volts but even if it's 20, you can't
hurt yourself with that even if you held the wires in your wet hands.
Even if you put them all in your mouth (though I'm not recommending
that.) You'd get a tingle and your tongue would jerk back, but even
if you could force your tongue to stay there, I don' tthink you could
hurt anything. (I don't force my tongue to stay on even low votlage
electric wirees.) Just write down what color wire went to what
number screw before you disconnect anything (you shouldnb't have to
disconnect anything, unless it's just one wire that goes somewhere
else. More likely there will be an unconnected wire you have to
connect. Also learn to make drawings, of all the screws with what
color wire goes to each. Drawings are very important. It's easy to
forget without them.

Do the instructions say which wire goes to the light indicator? If
not call the guy and ask him and tell him you a) didn't have enough
time to give a good answer (if you want to sort of blame him) or b)
you made a mistake when you told him to disconnect the light (maybe a
better approach since people like humility) And you'd be happy to
connect it yourself if he'd tell you which wire and which screw. If
he says he will do it, ask the charge. He may say free, esp. if he is
near your house at times. If he wants more than you want to pay, say
you canb't allocate more money to this, and maybe he'll do it for free
or at least he'll answer your question.


Might want to do some research before encouraging others
to start working on their own wiring. I installed furnaces
for six years, and all the low voltage thermostats I did
were nominal 24 VAC, and often you'd see 26 or 27 on a VOM.
Since you don't know the typical low voltage for stats, do
you REALLY think you should tell people to work on them....

You're going to get hurt on 26-27V? It's pretty easy and safe if
YOU'RE SURE IT'S A LO VOLTAGE SYSTEM. Some aren't (though a heat
pump's thermostat should be).

The bigger danger is shorting the 24V supply and blowing a fuse in the
air handler, or worse. BTDT. Just follow the instructions and it's
not difficult or dangerous.

On Sat, 09 Nov 2013 07:53:16 -0800, Paul Drahn
wrote:

On 11/8/2013 11:51 PM, Kate wrote:
I need some advice please.

I recently had a Carrier Heat Pump installed. The air conditioner works
perfect. Now we are into fall and I noticed that even though the
temps are still above 47 degrees, my auxiliary heat would come on. Most
of the time, it would stay on for three minutes, then go off. It is my
understanding it should not come on until it is below 35 degrees.

The Carrier tech came out and locked it out at 35 degrees, so I should
be OK now. I wasn't aware that this could be done.

He asked me if I wanted to have the Auxiliary Heat indicator turned off
on the thermostat. I said sure. Now, I am wondering if I did the right
thing. If it is still not working properly I have no way of knowing.

What would you do? Have the man come back and adjust it so the aux light
indicator comes back on, or just leave it? I would do it myself, but I
believe he disconnected a wire at the back of the thermostat, and I
don't feel comfortable messing with the electrical wires.

Many thanks!

Kadee
IT really depends on your thermostat. We had a new heatpump with
electric backup heat installed in a rental property a couple of years
ago. A new programmable thermostat was included. We discovered that the
backup heat would come on if the thermostat discovered the room
temperature was more than 2 degrees lower than the set point of the
thermostat.

That's not all that unusual. A new thermostat is in order.

We had the same type programmable thermostat installed in our current
mfg. home with heat pump. Same thing with the thermostat. More than one
degree difference and the backup heat comes on.

That's ridiculous. The thermostat wouldn't last the week.

The reason is efficiency. The least cost heating is to maintain the same
temperature night and day. The heat pump will do this best when the set
temperature and the room temperature remain the same.

Not believing it. Heat pumps can take a long time to recover in
really cold weather but in somewhat warmer weather there is no reason
to waste the energy. I prefer it colder at night that during the day.
Any system that didn't allow me the flexibility would soon be gone.

Set your thermostat to the temperature you want, for every day of the
week, both night and day. A one degree lower night temp will keep the
backup off, but will run the heatpump steady until the house temp comes
up to the daytime temp.

So what? That's true of any system. That's how thermostats work.

The heating company will not tell you this up front.

Any idiot should know how a thermostat works.

On Sat, 09 Nov 2013 14:21:08 -0500, wrote:



Might want to do some research before encouraging others
to start working on their own wiring. I installed furnaces
for six years, and all the low voltage thermostats I did
were nominal 24 VAC, and often you'd see 26 or 27 on a VOM.
Since you don't know the typical low voltage for stats, do
you REALLY think you should tell people to work on them....

You're going to get hurt on 26-27V? It's pretty easy and safe if
YOU'RE SURE IT'S A LO VOLTAGE SYSTEM. Some aren't (though a heat
pump's thermostat should be).

The bigger danger is shorting the 24V supply and blowing a fuse in the
air handler, or worse. BTDT. Just follow the instructions and it's
not difficult or dangerous.

Good points. Noted.

The bigger danger is shorting the 24V supply and blowing a fuse in the

air handler, or worse. BTDT. Just follow the instructions and it's

not difficult or dangerous.



Good points. Noted.

yes if you decide to wire it yourself, turn off the power to protect the equipment.

also, no one mentioned that most heat pump systems use a 2 stage thermostat.. If the room is only a little cooler then the set point, the heat pump comes on for stage 1. But if the room is more then 2 or 3 deg cooler than the set point, like when you first turn up the heat, then stage 2 will come on (the aux heat will come on). This is normal. Think of it a 2 thermostats, stage 1 is set for the setting you see, and stage 2 is set a few degrees below that. Once you understand that, if you want to keep the aux stage 2 heat from coming on, you make smaller increases in the setting. If you make a big increase in the setting, the aux heat will come on and that is normal.

When it is below about 32 outside and damp, I turn off the heat pump to avoid the defrost business, but I have oil for the aux heat so its not so expensive.

Mark


Mark

Kate wrote:
I need some advice please.

I recently had a Carrier Heat Pump installed. The air conditioner
works perfect. Now we are into fall and I noticed that even though
the temps are still above 47 degrees, my auxiliary heat would come on. Most of
the time, it would stay on for three minutes, then go off. It is my
understanding it should not come on until it is below 35
degrees.

If it just comes on for 3 minutes, that's probably during the defrost cycle. If
it doesn't come on then, you will get a shot of clod air.

On Sat, 9 Nov 2013 16:38:51 -0800 (PST), wrote:



The bigger danger is shorting the 24V supply and blowing a fuse in the

air handler, or worse. BTDT. Just follow the instructions and it's

not difficult or dangerous.



Good points. Noted.

yes if you decide to wire it yourself, turn off the power to protect the equipment.

also, no one mentioned that most heat pump systems use a 2 stage thermostat. If the room is only a little cooler then the set point, the heat pump comes on for stage 1. But if the room is more then 2 or 3 deg cooler than the set point, like when you first turn up the heat, then stage 2 will come on (the aux heat will come on). This is normal. Think of it a 2 thermostats, stage 1 is set for the setting you see, and stage 2 is set a few degrees below that. Once you understand that, if you want to keep the aux stage 2 heat from coming on, you make smaller increases in the setting. If you make a big increase in the setting, the aux heat will come on and that is normal.

That's the point. The second stage is often resistive heat. It's
better to avoid that, if at all possible. Smart thermostats allow one
to disable the second stage unless it's really needed.

When it is below about 32 outside and damp, I turn off the heat pump to avoid the defrost business, but I have oil for the aux heat so its not so expensive.

Most homes don't have such backup heat. It's not warranted where heat
pumps are most useful.

wrote in message
...
When it is below about 32 outside and damp, I turn off the heat pump to
avoid the defrost business, but I have oil for the aux heat so its not so
expensive.

Most homes don't have such backup heat. It's not warranted where heat
pumps are most useful.

At the price of oil, I would think it would be much more expensive to heat
with oil unless it got below 25 deg or lower.

On Sun, 10 Nov 2013 10:45:45 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
When it is below about 32 outside and damp, I turn off the heat pump to
avoid the defrost business, but I have oil for the aux heat so its not so
expensive.

Most homes don't have such backup heat. It's not warranted where heat
pumps are most useful.

At the price of oil, I would think it would be much more expensive to heat
with oil unless it got below 25 deg or lower.

Of course that depends on the local price of electricity, but it sure
would here. It so rarely gets below 25F for any period of time that
backup heat is senseless (at least as a cost savings).

On Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:45:45 AM UTC-5, Ralph Mowery wrote:
wrote in message

...

When it is below about 32 outside and damp, I turn off the heat pump to

avoid the defrost business, but I have oil for the aux heat so its not so

expensive.



Most homes don't have such backup heat. It's not warranted where heat

pumps are most useful.



At the price of oil, I would think it would be much more expensive to heat

with oil unless it got below 25 deg or lower.

agreed, and that is what I said except at 32 instead of 25. Below 32 if you account for the inefficiency of the defrosting and the wear and tear on the compressor and the discomfort of being cold in the house, it starts to pay to burn some oil.

I'd like to see someone develop a solar assisted heat pump. Use some solar heat to get the air up to 32 so the heat pump can work well.

Mark

Mark

On Sun, 10 Nov 2013 14:13:19 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:45:45 AM UTC-5, Ralph Mowery wrote:
wrote in message

...

When it is below about 32 outside and damp, I turn off the heat pump to

avoid the defrost business, but I have oil for the aux heat so its not so

expensive.



Most homes don't have such backup heat. It's not warranted where heat

pumps are most useful.



At the price of oil, I would think it would be much more expensive to heat

with oil unless it got below 25 deg or lower.

agreed, and that is what I said except at 32 instead of 25. Below 32 if you account for the inefficiency of the defrosting and the wear and tear on the compressor and the discomfort of being cold in the house, it starts to pay to burn some oil.

I'd like to see someone develop a solar assisted heat pump. Use some solar heat to get the air up to 32 so the heat pump can work well.

Instead of wasting money on a solar assisted heat pump (daytime is not
when you need the heat) why not do something useful and buy a
ground-source heat pump?

On 11/10/13 11:12 PM, wrote:
Instead of wasting money on a solar assisted heat pump (daytime is not
when you need the heat) why not do something useful and buy a
ground-source heat pump?


By "ground source", you mean geothermal, is that correct?

Is there a temperature range below which geothermal needs an
"auxilliary assist" (i.e., electrical heat strips) as well?
I thinking of an area like Pennsylvania, where temps can
drop down close to 0 at least a few days of winter.

Also -
I see plenty of homes with "regular" (non-geothermal) heat
pumps installed around north/north central PA. When shopping
for a home that has a non-geothermal heat pump installed, at
what seasonal temps does it become impractical or
non-economical?

On Monday, November 11, 2013 5:38:31 PM UTC-5, John Albert wrote:
On 11/10/13 11:12 PM, wrote:

Instead of wasting money on a solar assisted heat pump (daytime is not

when you need the heat) why not do something useful and buy a

ground-source heat pump?





By "ground source", you mean geothermal, is that correct?



Is there a temperature range below which geothermal needs an

"auxilliary assist" (i.e., electrical heat strips) as well?

I thinking of an area like Pennsylvania, where temps can

drop down close to 0 at least a few days of winter.



My understanding is that geothermal systems are sized so they
are all that is required. They're expensive enought without
having the added complications of a hybrid system. That is the
big drawback, the huge initial expense compared to other
altermatives.




Also -

I see plenty of homes with "regular" (non-geothermal) heat

pumps installed around north/north central PA. When shopping

for a home that has a non-geothermal heat pump installed, at

what seasonal temps does it become impractical or

non-economical?

That depends on a lot of factors. One big one is the
COP of the unit. Is it a 15 year old one or a newer, high
efficiency one? How well insulated is the house? I think
in most cases the problem isn't that it's not economic
to run the heat pump. They have decent COP's down into
the teens. The problem is that even though you're still
getting heat produced at a reasonable cost, you just can't
get enough heat to supply what the house needs, unless
the house is exceptionally designed to need less heating than a
typical home. I think for a typical house, with a relatively
new higher eff heat pump, that point probably occurs in the
20s, to maybe teens,depending on how efficient it is,
how it's sized, etc.

On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:38:31 -0500, John Albert
wrote:

On 11/10/13 11:12 PM, wrote:
Instead of wasting money on a solar assisted heat pump (daytime is not
when you need the heat) why not do something useful and buy a
ground-source heat pump?


By "ground source", you mean geothermal, is that correct?

No, though some people may call it that. Geothermal is passive.

Is there a temperature range below which geothermal needs an
"auxilliary assist" (i.e., electrical heat strips) as well?
I thinking of an area like Pennsylvania, where temps can
drop down close to 0 at least a few days of winter.

The outside air temperature doesn't matter at all. If the ground gets
cold enough to require such, then the ground "source" isn't big
enough.

Also -
I see plenty of homes with "regular" (non-geothermal) heat
pumps installed around north/north central PA. When shopping
for a home that has a non-geothermal heat pump installed, at
what seasonal temps does it become impractical or
non-economical?

My brother had an air-source (the alternative to ground-source) heat
pump in N. Philly. Around freezing efficiency falls off rapidly. At
some point, probably above 20F, they stop working entirely without
resistive heat.

On Monday, November 11, 2013 8:04:14 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:38:31 -0500, John Albert

wrote:



On 11/10/13 11:12 PM, wrote:

Instead of wasting money on a solar assisted heat pump (daytime is not

when you need the heat) why not do something useful and buy a

ground-source heat pump?





By "ground source", you mean geothermal, is that correct?



No, though some people may call it that. Geothermal is passive.



At the risk of setting off another profanity laced response, why
don't you answer the question and explain what exactly you meant?
AFAIK, ground sourced heat pump for a house typically translates
into geothermal. So, if it's not that, then what is "ground sourced",
in this context?




Is there a temperature range below which geothermal needs an

"auxilliary assist" (i.e., electrical heat strips) as well?

I thinking of an area like Pennsylvania, where temps can

drop down close to 0 at least a few days of winter.



The outside air temperature doesn't matter at all. If the ground gets

cold enough to require such, then the ground "source" isn't big

enough.


It does matter to the extent that the geothermal system has to be
large enough to deliver the heat needed at the lowest outside
temps the house will experience.




Also -

I see plenty of homes with "regular" (non-geothermal) heat

pumps installed around north/north central PA. When shopping

for a home that has a non-geothermal heat pump installed, at

what seasonal temps does it become impractical or

non-economical?



My brother had an air-source (the alternative to ground-source) heat

pump in N. Philly. Around freezing efficiency falls off rapidly. At

some point, probably above 20F, they stop working entirely without

resistive heat.

I don't believe that's true. The curves I've seen, for modern high
efficiency heat pumps, COP falls off gradually through a wide operating
range. There isn't a sudden acceleration in loss of performance below 32F. COP might go down by 15% from 30 to 20. The problem is that while the
performance is gradually decreasing, the need for more heat is also
increasing.

On Tue, 12 Nov 2013 07:34:04 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Monday, November 11, 2013 8:04:14 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:38:31 -0500, John Albert

wrote:



On 11/10/13 11:12 PM, wrote:

Instead of wasting money on a solar assisted heat pump (daytime is not

when you need the heat) why not do something useful and buy a

ground-source heat pump?





By "ground source", you mean geothermal, is that correct?



No, though some people may call it that. Geothermal is passive.



At the risk of setting off another profanity laced response, why
don't you answer the question and explain what exactly you meant?

I did, dumb ass. I can't help the fact that you're illiterate,
trader.

AFAIK, ground sourced heat pump for a house typically translates
into geothermal. So, if it's not that, then what is "ground sourced",
in this context?

The heat is actively pulled from the ground (heat pumped from the
ground), rather than passively (heat passively removed from the hotter
ground). There *IS* a difference.



Is there a temperature range below which geothermal needs an

"auxilliary assist" (i.e., electrical heat strips) as well?

I thinking of an area like Pennsylvania, where temps can

drop down close to 0 at least a few days of winter.



The outside air temperature doesn't matter at all. If the ground gets

cold enough to require such, then the ground "source" isn't big

enough.


It does matter to the extent that the geothermal system has to be
large enough to deliver the heat needed at the lowest outside
temps the house will experience.

Not just the lowest outside temps, but the integral of the (delta)
temperature over time. You are actively cooling the ground. That
can't be done forever, unless you've tapped into an infinite heat
sump, like a "river". If the heat source is too small, eventually you
will cool the ground enough that the heat pump has no heat to pump.
Unlike an air-source heat pump, this happens over a much longer time
(over a heating "season").


Also -

I see plenty of homes with "regular" (non-geothermal) heat

pumps installed around north/north central PA. When shopping

for a home that has a non-geothermal heat pump installed, at

what seasonal temps does it become impractical or

non-economical?



My brother had an air-source (the alternative to ground-source) heat

pump in N. Philly. Around freezing efficiency falls off rapidly. At

some point, probably above 20F, they stop working entirely without

resistive heat.

I don't believe that's true. The curves I've seen, for modern high
efficiency heat pumps, COP falls off gradually through a wide operating
range. There isn't a sudden acceleration in loss of performance below 32F. COP might go down by 15% from 30 to 20. The problem is that while the
performance is gradually decreasing, the need for more heat is also
increasing.

Your religion is hardly important.

On


some point, probably above 20F, they stop working entirely without



resistive heat.



I don't believe that's true. The curves I've seen, for modern high

efficiency heat pumps, COP falls off gradually through a wide operating

range. There isn't a sudden acceleration in loss of performance below 32F. COP might go down by 15% from 30 to 20. The problem is that while the

performance is gradually decreasing, the need for more heat is also

increasing.

well yes, once you cross that "balance point" where the heat available can no longer match the heat needed, then the house will get colder.

And consider that when the outside temp falls such that the outdoor evap starts to ice up, the heat exchange efficiency gets even worse, so yes there is a sort of sudden decrease in performance when the outdoor coil starts to ice up.

Looking at performance curves is not the same is living with one.

Mark

On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 5:25:40 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Instead of wasting money on a solar assisted heat pump (daytime is not

when you need the heat) why not do something useful and buy a

ground-source heat pump?





By "ground source", you mean geothermal, is that correct?



No, though some people may call it that. Geothermal is passive.


At the risk of setting off another profanity laced response, why

don't you answer the question and explain what exactly you meant?



I did, dumb ass. I can't help the fact that you're illiterate,

trader.



And there you have it demonstrated again folks.
KRW is incapable of answering any questions civily.





AFAIK, ground sourced heat pump for a house typically translates

into geothermal. So, if it's not that, then what is "ground sourced",

in this context?



The heat is actively pulled from the ground (heat pumped from the

ground), rather than passively (heat passively removed from the hotter

ground). There *IS* a difference.



Again, you posted:

" Instead of wasting money on a solar assisted heat pump (daytime is not
when you need the heat) why not do something useful and buy a
ground-source heat pump?"

To which JA replied:

"By "ground source", you mean geothermal, is that correct?

And then you say:

"No, though some people may call it that. Geothermal is passive."


Some people? AFAIK, virtually everyone refers to a ground
based heat pump system as one form of geothermal including experts
in the field, eqpt manufacturers, companies installing it, govts,
etc. Google and you will see. So, what are you talking
about?



Around freezing efficiency falls off rapidly. At



some point, probably above 20F, they stop working entirely without



resistive heat.



I don't believe that's true. The curves I've seen, for modern high

efficiency heat pumps, COP falls off gradually through a wide operating

range. There isn't a sudden acceleration in loss of performance below 32F. COP might go down by 15% from 30 to 20. The problem is that while the

performance is gradually decreasing, the need for more heat is also

increasing.



Your religion is hardly important.

As usual, no facts, just curt replies that don't address anything.
Typical, when you know you're wrong, yet again. If you have COP data
from a typical modern residential heat pump system that shows the efficiency falling off rapidly below 32F, I'm sure we'd all like to see it.

On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 5:25:40 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tue, 12 Nov 2013 07:34:04 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:



On Monday, November 11, 2013 8:04:14 PM UTC-5, wrote:

On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:38:31 -0500, John Albert



wrote:







On 11/10/13 11:12 PM, wrote:



Instead of wasting money on a solar assisted heat pump (daytime is not



when you need the heat) why not do something useful and buy a



ground-source heat pump?











By "ground source", you mean geothermal, is that correct?







No, though some people may call it that. Geothermal is passive.







At the risk of setting off another profanity laced response, why

don't you answer the question and explain what exactly you meant?



I did, dumb ass. I can't help the fact that you're illiterate,

trader.



AFAIK, ground sourced heat pump for a house typically translates

into geothermal. So, if it's not that, then what is "ground sourced",

in this context?



The heat is actively pulled from the ground (heat pumped from the

ground), rather than passively (heat passively removed from the hotter

ground). There *IS* a difference.







Is there a temperature range below which geothermal needs an



"auxilliary assist" (i.e., electrical heat strips) as well?



I thinking of an area like Pennsylvania, where temps can



drop down close to 0 at least a few days of winter.







The outside air temperature doesn't matter at all. If the ground gets



cold enough to require such, then the ground "source" isn't big



enough.





It does matter to the extent that the geothermal system has to be

large enough to deliver the heat needed at the lowest outside

temps the house will experience.



Not just the lowest outside temps, but the integral of the (delta)

temperature over time. You are actively cooling the ground. That

can't be done forever, unless you've tapped into an infinite heat

sump, like a "river". If the heat source is too small, eventually you

will cool the ground enough that the heat pump has no heat to pump.

Unlike an air-source heat pump, this happens over a much longer time

(over a heating "season").





Also -



I see plenty of homes with "regular" (non-geothermal) heat



pumps installed around north/north central PA. When shopping



for a home that has a non-geothermal heat pump installed, at



what seasonal temps does it become impractical or



non-economical?







My brother had an air-source (the alternative to ground-source) heat



pump in N. Philly. Around freezing efficiency falls off rapidly. At



some point, probably above 20F, they stop working entirely without



resistive heat.



I don't believe that's true. The curves I've seen, for modern high

efficiency heat pumps, COP falls off gradually through a wide operating

range. There isn't a sudden acceleration in loss of performance below 32F. COP might go down by 15% from 30 to 20. The problem is that while the

performance is gradually decreasing, the need for more heat is also

increasing.



Your religion is hardly important.

That's just silly there is no difference. Heat moves from warmer to colder. There's no "pulling" verses "passive" transfer.

On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 10:45:27 -0800 (PST), jamesgang
wrote:

On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 5:25:40 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tue, 12 Nov 2013 07:34:04 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:



On Monday, November 11, 2013 8:04:14 PM UTC-5, wrote:

On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:38:31 -0500, John Albert



wrote:







On 11/10/13 11:12 PM, wrote:



Instead of wasting money on a solar assisted heat pump (daytime is not



when you need the heat) why not do something useful and buy a



ground-source heat pump?











By "ground source", you mean geothermal, is that correct?







No, though some people may call it that. Geothermal is passive.







At the risk of setting off another profanity laced response, why

don't you answer the question and explain what exactly you meant?



I did, dumb ass. I can't help the fact that you're illiterate,

trader.



AFAIK, ground sourced heat pump for a house typically translates

into geothermal. So, if it's not that, then what is "ground sourced",

in this context?



The heat is actively pulled from the ground (heat pumped from the

ground), rather than passively (heat passively removed from the hotter

ground). There *IS* a difference.







Is there a temperature range below which geothermal needs an



"auxilliary assist" (i.e., electrical heat strips) as well?



I thinking of an area like Pennsylvania, where temps can



drop down close to 0 at least a few days of winter.







The outside air temperature doesn't matter at all. If the ground gets



cold enough to require such, then the ground "source" isn't big



enough.





It does matter to the extent that the geothermal system has to be

large enough to deliver the heat needed at the lowest outside

temps the house will experience.



Not just the lowest outside temps, but the integral of the (delta)

temperature over time. You are actively cooling the ground. That

can't be done forever, unless you've tapped into an infinite heat

sump, like a "river". If the heat source is too small, eventually you

will cool the ground enough that the heat pump has no heat to pump.

Unlike an air-source heat pump, this happens over a much longer time

(over a heating "season").





Also -



I see plenty of homes with "regular" (non-geothermal) heat



pumps installed around north/north central PA. When shopping



for a home that has a non-geothermal heat pump installed, at



what seasonal temps does it become impractical or



non-economical?







My brother had an air-source (the alternative to ground-source) heat



pump in N. Philly. Around freezing efficiency falls off rapidly. At



some point, probably above 20F, they stop working entirely without



resistive heat.



I don't believe that's true. The curves I've seen, for modern high

efficiency heat pumps, COP falls off gradually through a wide operating

range. There isn't a sudden acceleration in loss of performance below 32F. COP might go down by 15% from 30 to 20. The problem is that while the

performance is gradually decreasing, the need for more heat is also

increasing.



Your religion is hardly important.

That's just silly there is no difference.

You're wrong, of course.

Heat moves from warmer to colder. There's no "pulling" verses "passive" transfer.

In your universe air conditioning doesn't work? Amazing.

wrote in message
...

Heat moves from warmer to colder. There's no "pulling" verses "passive"
transfer.

In your universe air conditioning doesn't work? Amazing.

Sure it does, The cool room still has heat in it. When the refrigerant
goes through those coils the heat in the room heats up the refrigerant and
makes it boil into a vapor.. Then the vapor is compressed and that makes it
hotter. It then goes outside and the hot vapor is cooled off by the outside
air and it goes to a liquid. It is just a mater of what is actually hot and
what is cool, or less hot.

On 11/9/2013 2:51 AM, Kate wrote:
I need some advice please.

I recently had a Carrier Heat Pump installed. The air conditioner works
perfect. Now we are into fall and I noticed that even though the
temps are still above 47 degrees, my auxiliary heat would come on. Most
of the time, it would stay on for three minutes, then go off. It is my
understanding it should not come on until it is below 35 degrees.

The Carrier tech came out and locked it out at 35 degrees, so I should
be OK now. I wasn't aware that this could be done.

He asked me if I wanted to have the Auxiliary Heat indicator turned off
on the thermostat. I said sure. Now, I am wondering if I did the right
thing. If it is still not working properly I have no way of knowing.

What would you do? Have the man come back and adjust it so the aux
light indicator comes back on, or just leave it? I would do it myself,
but I believe he disconnected a wire at the back of the thermostat, and
I don't feel comfortable messing with the electrical wires.

Many thanks!

Yes I would want the light on and if they installed the thermostat you
could void the warranty by messing with it.

On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 10:45:27 -0800 (PST), jamesgang
wrote:

On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 5:25:40 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tue, 12 Nov 2013 07:34:04 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:



On Monday, November 11, 2013 8:04:14 PM UTC-5, wrote:

On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:38:31 -0500, John Albert



wrote:







On 11/10/13 11:12 PM, wrote:



Instead of wasting money on a solar assisted heat pump (daytime is not



when you need the heat) why not do something useful and buy a



ground-source heat pump?











By "ground source", you mean geothermal, is that correct?







No, though some people may call it that. Geothermal is passive.







At the risk of setting off another profanity laced response, why

don't you answer the question and explain what exactly you meant?



I did, dumb ass. I can't help the fact that you're illiterate,

trader.



AFAIK, ground sourced heat pump for a house typically translates

into geothermal. So, if it's not that, then what is "ground sourced",

in this context?



The heat is actively pulled from the ground (heat pumped from the

ground), rather than passively (heat passively removed from the hotter

ground). There *IS* a difference.







Is there a temperature range below which geothermal needs an



"auxilliary assist" (i.e., electrical heat strips) as well?



I thinking of an area like Pennsylvania, where temps can



drop down close to 0 at least a few days of winter.







The outside air temperature doesn't matter at all. If the ground gets



cold enough to require such, then the ground "source" isn't big



enough.





It does matter to the extent that the geothermal system has to be

large enough to deliver the heat needed at the lowest outside

temps the house will experience.



Not just the lowest outside temps, but the integral of the (delta)

temperature over time. You are actively cooling the ground. That

can't be done forever, unless you've tapped into an infinite heat

sump, like a "river". If the heat source is too small, eventually you

will cool the ground enough that the heat pump has no heat to pump.

Unlike an air-source heat pump, this happens over a much longer time

(over a heating "season").





Also -



I see plenty of homes with "regular" (non-geothermal) heat



pumps installed around north/north central PA. When shopping



for a home that has a non-geothermal heat pump installed, at



what seasonal temps does it become impractical or



non-economical?







My brother had an air-source (the alternative to ground-source) heat



pump in N. Philly. Around freezing efficiency falls off rapidly. At



some point, probably above 20F, they stop working entirely without



resistive heat.



I don't believe that's true. The curves I've seen, for modern high

efficiency heat pumps, COP falls off gradually through a wide operating

range. There isn't a sudden acceleration in loss of performance below 32F. COP might go down by 15% from 30 to 20. The problem is that while the

performance is gradually decreasing, the need for more heat is also

increasing.



Your religion is hardly important.

That's just silly there is no difference. Heat moves from warmer to colder. There's no "pulling" verses "passive" transfer.

On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 20:45:35 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .

Heat moves from warmer to colder. There's no "pulling" verses "passive"
transfer.

In your universe air conditioning doesn't work? Amazing.

Sure it does, The cool room still has heat in it. When the refrigerant
goes through those coils the heat in the room heats up the refrigerant and
makes it boil into a vapor.. Then the vapor is compressed and that makes it
hotter. It then goes outside and the hot vapor is cooled off by the outside
air and it goes to a liquid. It is just a mater of what is actually hot and
what is cool, or less hot.

Now do you understand why you're wrong?