I'm trying to bleed my radiator in my new apartment and I've found that there's no bleeder valve. I have 3 rads in the apartment which was recently re-furbished; all of them have the same problem. They'll heat the first two columns of a large column radiator and remain at a low temperature but not flow across the entire radiator. I may be wrong about the initial issue (bleeding) but I don't know how to proceed since there is no bleed valve.

Any suggestions?

PICTURES:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/q9zqmv5wglvmuim/gOlxele0En

On Sun, 13 Oct 2013 09:02:08 -0700 (PDT), Patrick in Switzerland
wrote:

I'm trying to bleed my radiator in my new apartment and I've found that there's no bleeder valve. I have 3 rads in the apartment which was recently re-furbished; all of them have the same problem. They'll heat the first two columns of a large column radiator and remain at a low temperature but not flow across the entire radiator. I may be wrong about the initial issue (bleeding) but I don't know how to proceed since there is no bleed valve.

Any suggestions?

PICTURES:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/q9zqmv5wglvmuim/gOlxele0En

I've never done this. IIRC, _This Old House_ had an episode on
bleeding the air out of the radiators. It seems they installed a
bleeder valve.

You may check into that option.

On 10/13/2013 3:19 PM, Oren wrote:
On Sun, 13 Oct 2013 09:02:08 -0700 (PDT), Patrick in Switzerland
wrote:

I'm trying to bleed my radiator in my new apartment and I've found that there's no bleeder valve. I have 3 rads in the apartment which was recently re-furbished; all of them have the same problem. They'll heat the first two columns of a large column radiator and remain at a low temperature but not flow across the entire radiator. I may be wrong about the initial issue (bleeding) but I don't know how to proceed since there is no bleed valve.

Any suggestions?

PICTURES:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/q9zqmv5wglvmuim/gOlxele0En

I've never done this. IIRC, _This Old House_ had an episode on
bleeding the air out of the radiators. It seems they installed a
bleeder valve.

You may check into that option.

I'm suspecting that the big white thing in the upper right corner has to
do with air bleeding. I wonder if it's a Spirovent or simiilar, but it's
installed on its side, instead of upright?



--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Sun, 13 Oct 2013 21:00:38 -0400, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 10/13/2013 3:19 PM, Oren wrote:
On Sun, 13 Oct 2013 09:02:08 -0700 (PDT), Patrick in Switzerland
wrote:

I'm trying to bleed my radiator in my new apartment and I've found that there's no bleeder valve. I have 3 rads in the apartment which was recently re-furbished; all of them have the same problem. They'll heat the first two columns of a large column radiator and remain at a low temperature but not flow across the entire radiator. I may be wrong about the initial issue (bleeding) but I don't know how to proceed since there is no bleed valve.

Any suggestions?

PICTURES:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/q9zqmv5wglvmuim/gOlxele0En

I've never done this. IIRC, _This Old House_ had an episode on
bleeding the air out of the radiators. It seems they installed a
bleeder valve.

You may check into that option.

I'm suspecting that the big white thing in the upper right corner has to
do with air bleeding. I wonder if it's a Spirovent or simiilar, but it's
installed on its side, instead of upright?

I have no clue on the knob, so don't axe me...

The ones I've seen in a penitentiary, built circa 1927 (PA), had no
knobs. Those were converted from coal fired steam to hot water
boilers.

Patrick:

That white knob in your first picture would have to be it. I expect it's an automatic air vent; so you have to have the literature that comes with it to see how to open it manually.

I can't read the name on the front of the knob, but if it says Danfoss, that's a well known Danish manufacturer of hot water heating system products.

If you can take that picture down to any local heating contractor, he should be able to tell you how it works.

Patrick in Switzerland wrote:
I'm trying to bleed my radiator in my new apartment and I've found that
there's no bleeder valve. I have 3 rads in the apartment which was
recently re-furbished; all of them have the same problem. They'll heat
the first two columns of a large column radiator and remain at a low
temperature but not flow across the entire radiator. I may be wrong about
the initial issue (bleeding) but I don't know how to proceed since there
is no bleed valve.

Any suggestions?

PICTURES:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/q9zqmv5wglvmuim/gOlxele0En

How many pipes are going to the radiator ?

Greg

On 10/13/2013 10:07 PM, gregz wrote:
Patrick in wrote:
I'm trying to bleed my radiator in my new apartment and I've found that
there's no bleeder valve. I have 3 rads in the apartment which was
recently re-furbished; all of them have the same problem. They'll heat
the first two columns of a large column radiator and remain at a low
temperature but not flow across the entire radiator. I may be wrong about
the initial issue (bleeding) but I don't know how to proceed since there
is no bleed valve.

Any suggestions?

PICTURES:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/q9zqmv5wglvmuim/gOlxele0En

How many pipes are going to the radiator ?

Greg

Certainly looks like one pipe. Far as I know that would have to be steam.

The top right looks like a temperature control.

It is a rental - ask the landlord.

On Monday, October 14, 2013 10:09:14 AM UTC-4, bud-- wrote:
Certainly looks like one pipe. Far as I know that would have to be steam.



The top right looks like a temperature control.

Do they still use one pipe steam in Europe? I haven't seen that system in a long time.

That knob is a thermostat. It never made sense to me to put the thermostat on the heat source, but when we lived in Europe our radiators all had them and they worked okay. They did have bleed valves on the end opposite the thermostat. I never got much air out of them though. But I did have to take off the thermostat periodically. There's a little brass plunger that goes into the valve. They stick especially if there's hard water. You have to grab them with pliers and work them in and out a few times, then the radiator gets hot again.

If it's steam, what are you bleeding?

On 10/14/2013 9:19 AM, TimR wrote:
On Monday, October 14, 2013 10:09:14 AM UTC-4, bud-- wrote:
Certainly looks like one pipe. Far as I know that would have to be steam.



The top right looks like a temperature control.

Do they still use one pipe steam in Europe? I haven't seen that system in a long time.

I am changing my mind. I think there is a pipe that can not be seen into
the wall at the top right. For one pipe steam the supply pipe would
probably have to be a lot bigger than what can be seen.

Likely hot water.

I did not notice that the OP comes from Switzerland. People here are
mostly from the US with some Canada and UK.


That knob is a thermostat. It never made sense to me to put the thermostat on the
heat source, but when we lived in Europe our radiators all had them and they worked
okay.

Thermostat at the radiator should be a cheap way to zone the system.

They did have bleed valves on the end opposite the thermostat. I never got much
air out of them though. But I did have to take off the thermostat periodically.
There's a little brass plunger that goes into the valve. They stick especially if
there's hard water. You have to grab them with pliers and work them in and out a
few times, then the radiator gets hot again.

Maybe the bleed is built into the thermostat? Ask the landlord.

But if there were air in the radiator the bottom would be hot (where the
water is).

Almost all my (hot water) radiators have pipes out the ends on the bottom.

One upstairs has pipes out one end - at the top and bottom (probably
what is pictured). Sometimes it does not heat because the system
pressure falls. The heating system pressure has to be high enough to
force all the air out the air bleed. And the pressure has to high enough
for water to reach the top pipe to circulate. I suggest having the
landlord check the system pressure.


If it's steam, what are you bleeding?

What I remember is that steam systems let air in when they cool. Else
you would pull a vacuum. An automatic air valve lets air out and closes
when hot (when steam gets to the radiator) and probably opens when cold.
Maybe that is just a one pipe steam system.

On Sunday, October 13, 2013 12:02:08 PM UTC-4, Patrick in Switzerland wrote:
I'm trying to bleed my radiator in my new apartment and I've found that there's no bleeder valve. I have 3 rads in the apartment which was recently re-furbished; all of them have the same problem. They'll heat the first two columns of a large column radiator and remain at a low temperature but not flow across the entire radiator. I may be wrong about the initial issue (bleeding) but I don't know how to proceed since there is no bleed valve.



Any suggestions?



PICTURES:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/q9zqmv5wglvmuim/gOlxele0En

Is there a floor above you?

On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 09:07:41 -0600, bud-- wrote:

On 10/13/2013 10:07 PM, gregz wrote:
Patrick in wrote:
I'm trying to bleed my radiator in my new apartment and I've found that
there's no bleeder valve. I have 3 rads in the apartment which was
recently re-furbished; all of them have the same problem. They'll heat
the first two columns of a large column radiator and remain at a low
temperature but not flow across the entire radiator. I may be wrong about

Very strange. Maybe there's a manufacturing defect in the radiators.
It seems to me, even if there is cold air in them, bleeding should not
be necessary because the steam in part of the radiator is adjacent to
the cold air and the steam should within 30 or 60 minutes heat the
cold air and humidify it and make the surface just as hot as the part
with steam. Convection.

OTOH, hot water can exist next to air that is nowhere near as hot, and
the air has to be bled. As an aside, I would think there are other
differences between steam and hot water radiators, in addition to
bleeding and number of pipes.


the initial issue (bleeding) but I don't know how to proceed since there
is no bleed valve.

Any suggestions?

PICTURES:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/q9zqmv5wglvmuim/gOlxele0En

How many pipes are going to the radiator ?

That was going to be my question.

Also, how tall is your building?

Greg

Certainly looks like one pipe. Far as I know that would have to be steam.

I agree. And In my experience here in the USA, there is no bleeding
required with steam. Maybe because the steam easily mixes with air in
the radiators and only at the start does the cold air lower the temp
of the steam. Just guessing.

There is a pressure regulator on a steam radiator that lets off excess
steam, but if part of the radiator is cold, I don't think you have
excess steam, OP.

The top right looks like a temperature control.

It is a rental - ask the landlord.

Or if he's not around, other tenants.

Or friends with new radiators.

Or go a store which sells stuff like this and ask them how it works.
A store that only sells heating equipment would be best. At a general
hardware store, maybe no one will know.

Or the web???

And of course if these are brand new radiators with a new design,
maybe no one but the landlord can help you.

Someone said
Do they still use one pipe steam in Europe?

I don't know, but if it's hot water**, there should be two pipes per
radiator. I see no evidence of a hidden pipe. So it must be steam.
I dont think thermostats like the one pictured work with hot water,
that is, at least they didn't 20 years ago in the USA, the last time I
checked. The poster should tell us, how many pipes.

**The only radiators that need bleeding afaik.


Normally in a steam radiator, the steam comes in through the only
pipe. It gives off heat and gets colder and turns back into hot water
which drops to the bottom of the radiator and runs out of the radiator
through that same pipe, at the bottom of the pipe. I suppose some
might change to steam on the way down (and then go back up again), but
one can look at it as if the hot water returns to the basement where
it's heated again and turned into steam again.

On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 17:56:35 -0400, micky
wrote:


I don't know, but if it's hot water**, there should be two pipes per
radiator. I see no evidence of a hidden pipe. So it must be steam.

I dont think thermostats like the one pictured work with hot water,
that is, at least they didn't 20 years ago in the USA, the last time I

I'm wrong about no hot water thermostats.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermos...Radiator_Valve

checked. The poster should tell us, how many pipes.

On Monday, October 14, 2013 6:04:21 PM UTC-4, micky wrote:
On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 17:56:35 -0400, micky wrote: I don't know, but if it's hot water**, there should be two pipes per radiator. I see no evidence of a hidden pipe. So it must be steam. I dont think thermostats like the one pictured work with hot water, that is, at least they didn't 20 years ago in the USA, the last time I I'm wrong about no hot water thermostats. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermos...Radiator_Valve checked. The poster should tell us, how many pipes.

if it is steam, the valve at the top has to initally open to let the air OUT so the steam can come in. Once the steam fills the radiator and it all gets hot and the valve gets hot, it closes to keep the steam from escaping. If your radiator is slow to heat and doesn't fully get hot, it is likely that the valve is not set correctly or not working.

Mark

On Sunday, October 13, 2013 11:44:15 PM UTC-4, nestork wrote:
Patrick:



That white knob in your first picture would have to be it. I expect

it's an automatic air vent; so you have to have the literature that

comes with it to see how to open it manually.



As Bud pointed out, it's the thermostat for the radiator. Very
common in Europe. There is a pipe on both sides of it, you
can see it in one of the pics, but not in most of them.
Whether they have a bleed function as well, IDK. He could
find the make/model and google the instruction sheet.
If it doesn't have a bleed, then again, I agree with Bud,
it's a rental, so tell the landlord about the problem, it's
their responsibility.





I can't read the name on the front of the knob, but if it says Danfoss,

that's a well known Danish manufacturer of hot water heating system

products.



If you can take that picture down to any local heating contractor, he

should be able to tell you how it works.



Or even to whatever their version of HomeDepot is,
plumbing supply, etc.