On 10/13/2013 9:33 AM, wrote:

You really want to try to schedule pool work in the late spring when
we are having fire warnings and it hasn't rained for months.
Even then, I still had a few feet of ground water in the bottom of the
pool. The guys who did the plaster said it probably wouldn't pop but
they still left their pump running until I started getting water in
the pool. When we got fresh water in about the height of the ground
water they packed up and left.

I just drained and refilled my pool two weeks ago because the TDS level
was so high that the sanitizer (chlorine) no longer had any effect. The
chlorine disappeared within hours. I wanted to wait until spring but I
didn't want to look at a green pool for six months.

In my area (and I suspect in most areas) it is illegal to pump pool
water into the street to go down the storm drains, so I hooked up a
submersible pump and pumped the water into the sewer line.
http://www.harborfreight.com/1-horsepower-submersible-dirty-water-pump-with-float-69300.html
This pump has a 1.5" outlet. I used a 1.5" to 1.25" adapter, and some
1.25" PVC, then the pool hose which fits into a 1.25" female slip fitting.

Once the pool was empty I washed the sides with a pressure washer (with
the lowest pressure fitting) then refilled. I had to add 50 pounds of
calcium carbonate, and some phosphate remover to the new water but the
ph was fine. I started using tablets again and will do so until the
stabilizer builds up.

On 10/12/2013 5:28 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 12 Oct 2013 09:20:10 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

That is the part I don't agree on. Pools are
drained all the time for maintenance without popping out
of the ground.
We don't know the facts as to what procedure the insured
did or did not follow, what type of pool it was, the
ground conditions, etc.

And you could just as easily argue that deciding to
leave a pot on a stove and go talk to a neighbor was
a "mistake". Anytime you choose to walk away from a
kitchen with a pot going, you know that there is some
reasonable chance that you'll forget about it and
something bad will happen. If you thought it was
turned off and it wasn't, then I would agree it's
an accident. But the example I outlined is where
you knew it was on and chose to leave the kitchen
unattended. Making a decision to leave a pot going on the
stove and going to talk to a neighbor sounds like
a "mistake" to me.


It really gets back to the fact that this was specifically excluded on
their homeowner's policy

"water below the surface of the ground...which exerts pressure on...a
swimming pool or other structure."

This is indeed a problem in places with water tables so close to the ground.

I know that in San Diego there is a service that comes to your house and
hooks up a huge reverse osmosis system and filters out the dissolved
solids and cyanuric acid.

http://aquamagazine.com/content/post/Mobile-Filtration-Saves-You-From-Having-To-Drain-Pools-To-Lower-TDS.aspx.

It's not any cheaper than draining and refilling, but it's less of a hassle.

This led me to thinking that perhaps a good product would be a
reverse-osmosis by-pass filter that could be installed after the regular
filter but before the chlorinator. It would slowly remove dissolved
solids and stabilizer when you open a valve to let some of the water
flow through it.

On 10/14/2013 12:40 PM, sms wrote:

In my area (and I suspect in most areas) it is illegal to pump pool
water into the street to go down the storm drains, so I hooked up a
submersible pump and pumped the water into the sewer line.
http://www.harborfreight.com/1-horsepower-submersible-dirty-water-pump-with-float-69300.html
This pump has a 1.5" outlet. I used a 1.5" to 1.25" adapter, and some
1.25" PVC, then the pool hose which fits into a 1.25" female slip fitting.


I've heard it's not legal to pump furnace or AC
condensate into the sanitary (really the unsanitary)
sewer. Not sure why. I'd guess cause it doesn't
really need to be through a treatment plant. Can
be dumped into the yard just fine.

Wonder why they would not want pool water in the
storm drain?


..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 10/14/2013 12:40 PM, sms wrote:

I hooked up a
submersible pump and pumped the water into the sewer line.
http://www.harborfreight.com/1-horsepower-submersible-dirty-water-pump-with-float-69300.html
This pump has a 1.5" outlet. I used a 1.5" to 1.25" adapter, and some
1.25" PVC, then the pool hose which fits into a 1.25" female slip fitting.


If you have a cellar, that pump might come in handy
when your sump pump goes bad. My parents cellar, the
sump has gone bad. Once or twice, we've had an inch
or two of water in the cellar.

I bought a HF 1/2 HP sump pump, adaptors, and 75
feet of blue tubing. Works fine, they haven't had
water in the cellar since then.

..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 10/14/2013 9:57 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 10/14/2013 12:40 PM, sms wrote:

In my area (and I suspect in most areas) it is illegal to pump pool
water into the street to go down the storm drains, so I hooked up a
submersible pump and pumped the water into the sewer line.
http://www.harborfreight.com/1-horsepower-submersible-dirty-water-pump-with-float-69300.html

This pump has a 1.5" outlet. I used a 1.5" to 1.25" adapter, and some
1.25" PVC, then the pool hose which fits into a 1.25" female slip
fitting.


I've heard it's not legal to pump furnace or AC
condensate into the sanitary (really the unsanitary)
sewer. Not sure why. I'd guess cause it doesn't
really need to be through a treatment plant. Can
be dumped into the yard just fine.

Wonder why they would not want pool water in the
storm drain?

The storm drains here all lead to San Francisco Bay which is already
highly polluted. They don't want any more chemicals being dumped into
the bay.

On 10/14/2013 1:18 PM, sms wrote:
On 10/14/2013 9:57 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Wonder why they would not want pool water in the
storm drain?

The storm drains here all lead to San Francisco Bay which is already
highly polluted. They don't want any more chemicals being dumped into
the bay.


Thanks, that makes sense. Pools tend to have
stabilizers, algae reducer chemicals, and
what not.

..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 09:40:13 -0700, sms
wrote:

In my area (and I suspect in most areas) it is illegal to pump pool
water into the street to go down the storm drains, so I hooked up a
submersible pump and pumped the water into the sewer line.
http://www.harborfreight.com/1-horsepower-submersible-dirty-water-pump-with-float-69300.html
This pump has a 1.5" outlet. I used a 1.5" to 1.25" adapter, and some
1.25" PVC, then the pool hose which fits into a 1.25" female slip fitting.

Same in my area. But instead of pumping the water into the sewer line
I pump it into the backyard. My yard is desert landscape, ~ 95% rock
instead of grass turf. It soaks in and gives the trees without
irrigation a good drink of water every couple - three years.

My sump pump is 1/4 HP (Little Giant- Big John) attached to a water
hose and I can move the hose around the yard.

On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 10:18:08 -0700, sms
wrote:

Wonder why they would not want pool water in the
storm drain?

The storm drains here all lead to San Francisco Bay which is already
highly polluted. They don't want any more chemicals being dumped into
the bay.

We have Lake Mead nearby... pool water is not supposed to be pumped
into the storm drains...

On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 10:58:12 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 10:18:08 -0700, sms
wrote:

Wonder why they would not want pool water in the
storm drain?

The storm drains here all lead to San Francisco Bay which is already
highly polluted. They don't want any more chemicals being dumped into
the bay.

We have Lake Mead nearby... pool water is not supposed to be pumped
into the storm drains...

Where do you put it, into the sanitary drains?

On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 14:26:49 -0400, wrote:

We have Lake Mead nearby... pool water is not supposed to be pumped
into the storm drains...

Where do you put it, into the sanitary drains?

I pump it into the back yard. The utility says to pump it into sewer
lines.

Sample pics:

http://www.snwa.com/apps/photo/index.cfml?gid=55

begin quote:

Use these tips to find your pool clean-out port. See photos in our
gallery for examples of different clean-out ports.

The sewer clean-out port will likely be 3 to 4 inches in diameter and
have a clamped, rubber cover or threaded cap.

If you have difficulty finding the clean-out port, it may be covered
by landscaping.

The preferred port is usually located at ground level in the
landscaped area of the front yard, close to the home. Some sewer ports
may be embedded in the driveway or garage floor.

Some sewer ports may be within a wall. Use caution if this is the
case, as wall-mounted ports create greater potential for water to back
up into the home.

If there are two ports, use the port nearest to the home and not
embedded in the wall.

end quote:

On 10/14/2013 12:15 PM, Oren wrote:
On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 14:26:49 -0400, wrote:

We have Lake Mead nearby... pool water is not supposed to be pumped
into the storm drains...

Where do you put it, into the sanitary drains?

I pump it into the back yard. The utility says to pump it into sewer
lines.

Sample pics:

http://www.snwa.com/apps/photo/index.cfml?gid=55

begin quote:

Use these tips to find your pool clean-out port. See photos in our
gallery for examples of different clean-out ports.

The sewer clean-out port will likely be 3 to 4 inches in diameter and
have a clamped, rubber cover or threaded cap.

If you have difficulty finding the clean-out port, it may be covered
by landscaping.

Yes, this is the case at my house. I drained the pool into a toilet. 40K
gallons. I drilled a 2.5" hole in the back door, near the bottom, and
ran the pool house through. I covered it up when I was done with one of
those door knob cover plates.

On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 14:49:21 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 10/14/2013 12:15 PM, Oren wrote:
On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 14:26:49 -0400, wrote:

We have Lake Mead nearby... pool water is not supposed to be pumped
into the storm drains...

Where do you put it, into the sanitary drains?

I pump it into the back yard. The utility says to pump it into sewer
lines.

Sample pics:

http://www.snwa.com/apps/photo/index.cfml?gid=55

begin quote:

Use these tips to find your pool clean-out port. See photos in our
gallery for examples of different clean-out ports.

The sewer clean-out port will likely be 3 to 4 inches in diameter and
have a clamped, rubber cover or threaded cap.

If you have difficulty finding the clean-out port, it may be covered
by landscaping.

Yes, this is the case at my house. I drained the pool into a toilet. 40K
gallons. I drilled a 2.5" hole in the back door, near the bottom, and
ran the pool house through. I covered it up when I was done with one of
those door knob cover plates.

That sounds odd, at least it sounds kinky just to drain a pool.

On 10/14/2013 3:10 PM, Oren wrote:

Yes, this is the case at my house. I drained the pool into a toilet. 40K
gallons. I drilled a 2.5" hole in the back door, near the bottom, and
ran the pool house through. I covered it up when I was done with one of
those door knob cover plates.

That sounds odd, at least it sounds kinky just to drain a pool.

I didn't want to leave the back door open while I was gone. The brass
plate is down near the bottom and really isn't an eyesore.

On Monday, October 14, 2013 12:40:13 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
On 10/13/2013 9:33 AM, wrote:



You really want to try to schedule pool work in the late spring when

we are having fire warnings and it hasn't rained for months.

Even then, I still had a few feet of ground water in the bottom of the

pool. The guys who did the plaster said it probably wouldn't pop but

they still left their pump running until I started getting water in

the pool. When we got fresh water in about the height of the ground

water they packed up and left.



I just drained and refilled my pool two weeks ago because the TDS level

was so high that the sanitizer (chlorine) no longer had any effect. The

chlorine disappeared within hours. I wanted to wait until spring but I

didn't want to look at a green pool for six months.



In my area (and I suspect in most areas) it is illegal to pump pool

water into the street to go down the storm drains, so I hooked up a

submersible pump and pumped the water into the sewer line.

I would think the sewer authority would have a fit over
that. 40,000 gallons of water to process that doesn't
need to be. Around here, NJ, we just pump it out on to
the ground. I guess the issue with it going into the storm
drains depends on where they go? If it's into a stream
or pond, I guess the CYA could be the issue? You wouldn't
think the small amount of chlorine would matter much.

But then the sewer authorities do some processing and
then send the water into a river, ocean or something
anyway. I'm not sure they have anything in the processing
to remove chemicals like CYA.

On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 12:15:25 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 14:26:49 -0400, wrote:

We have Lake Mead nearby... pool water is not supposed to be pumped
into the storm drains...

Where do you put it, into the sanitary drains?

I pump it into the back yard.

....and where does it go from there?

The utility says to pump it into sewer lines.

Odd.

Sample pics:

http://www.snwa.com/apps/photo/index.cfml?gid=55

begin quote:

Use these tips to find your pool clean-out port. See photos in our
gallery for examples of different clean-out ports.

The sewer clean-out port will likely be 3 to 4 inches in diameter and
have a clamped, rubber cover or threaded cap.

If you have difficulty finding the clean-out port, it may be covered
by landscaping.

The preferred port is usually located at ground level in the
landscaped area of the front yard, close to the home. Some sewer ports
may be embedded in the driveway or garage floor.

Some sewer ports may be within a wall. Use caution if this is the
case, as wall-mounted ports create greater potential for water to back
up into the home.

If there are two ports, use the port nearest to the home and not
embedded in the wall.

end quote:

On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 19:23:43 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 12:15:25 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 14:26:49 -0400, wrote:

We have Lake Mead nearby... pool water is not supposed to be pumped
into the storm drains...

Where do you put it, into the sanitary drains?

I pump it into the back yard.

...and where does it go from there?


Last I checked it soaked into the earth. Or the trees took a drink.

The utility says to pump it into sewer lines.

Odd.


Hey! I didn't write the local codes

On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 16:37:25 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 19:23:43 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 12:15:25 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 14:26:49 -0400, wrote:

We have Lake Mead nearby... pool water is not supposed to be pumped
into the storm drains...

Where do you put it, into the sanitary drains?

I pump it into the back yard.

...and where does it go from there?


Last I checked it soaked into the earth. Or the trees took a drink.

20-30K gallons? That's some thirsty trees!

The utility says to pump it into sewer lines.

Odd.


Hey! I didn't write the local codes

Understood. In most places they draw-and-quarter anyone caught
discharging anything but household waste into the sanitary sewer.
Of course in the NE they're connected together. ...but they never
have been accused of being smart. Lefties everywhere.

On Monday, October 14, 2013 8:30:20 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 16:37:25 -0700, Oren wrote:



On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 19:23:43 -0400, wrote:



On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 12:15:25 -0700, Oren wrote:



On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 14:26:49 -0400, wrote:



We have Lake Mead nearby... pool water is not supposed to be pumped

into the storm drains...



Where do you put it, into the sanitary drains?



I pump it into the back yard.



...and where does it go from there?





Last I checked it soaked into the earth. Or the trees took a drink.



20-30K gallons? That's some thirsty trees!


48K gallons here and no problem pumping it out onto
the ground. Of course it depends on the size of
your lot too. Acre+ here. I've only ever drained
it by about half, but there was no big pond or
anything to suggest that it couldn't take all of it.






The utility says to pump it into sewer lines.



Odd.





Hey! I didn't write the local codes



Understood. In most places they draw-and-quarter anyone caught

discharging anything but household waste into the sanitary sewer.

Of course in the NE they're connected together.


Storm drains and sewer are not connected together here in NJ.
I don't think it's typical in the NE. NYC has some that
are combined, but I think that's the legacy systems and
new construction they are separate. It's really a disaster
having to process millions of gallons of rain water. Not
only is it expensive, but with a huge rain, it can overwhelm
the system so that actual raw sewage winds up discharged
into rivers, ocean, etc.

In places where you have to pump a pool out into the
sewer system, I wonder how it's done? They must have
a permanent connection available to pump it into.
Otherwise where would you put the pool pump hose
that could handle that volume of water?




...but they never

have been accused of being smart. Lefties everywhere.

On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 20:30:20 -0400, wrote:

Last I checked it soaked into the earth. Or the trees took a drink.

20-30K gallons? That's some thirsty trees!


Just 10 K for our old folks pool.

The utility says to pump it into sewer lines.

Odd.


Hey! I didn't write the local codes

Understood. In most places they draw-and-quarter anyone caught
discharging anything but household waste into the sanitary sewer.
Of course in the NE they're connected together. ...but they never
have been accused of being smart. Lefties everywhere.

Out here the street storm drains, on the street drain back to Lake
Mead. Many, not all, have embedded signs that say no toxic water, etc.

Sewer lines go back to the city, they are different systems.

On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 17:47:45 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Monday, October 14, 2013 8:30:20 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 16:37:25 -0700, Oren wrote:



On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 19:23:43 -0400, wrote:



On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 12:15:25 -0700, Oren wrote:



On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 14:26:49 -0400, wrote:



We have Lake Mead nearby... pool water is not supposed to be pumped

into the storm drains...



Where do you put it, into the sanitary drains?



I pump it into the back yard.



...and where does it go from there?





Last I checked it soaked into the earth. Or the trees took a drink.



20-30K gallons? That's some thirsty trees!


48K gallons here and no problem pumping it out onto
the ground. Of course it depends on the size of
your lot too. Acre+ here. I've only ever drained
it by about half, but there was no big pond or
anything to suggest that it couldn't take all of it.

I drained mine on the yard, too, but I lived next to a swamp (AKA a
lefty "wetlands"). Most don't. It's still putting all those nasty
"chemicals" into the watershed.

The utility says to pump it into sewer lines.



Odd.





Hey! I didn't write the local codes



Understood. In most places they draw-and-quarter anyone caught

discharging anything but household waste into the sanitary sewer.

Of course in the NE they're connected together.


Storm drains and sewer are not connected together here in NJ.

They most certainly are in most of the NE.

I don't think it's typical in the NE.

Wrong.

NYC has some that
are combined, but I think that's the legacy systems and
new construction they are separate. It's really a disaster
having to process millions of gallons of rain water. Not
only is it expensive, but with a huge rain, it can overwhelm
the system so that actual raw sewage winds up discharged
into rivers, ocean, etc.

They were in NY and VT. Every time they had a big rain, in the
Summer, they had to close all the beaches because the coliform levels
skyrocketed as the treatment plants overflowed.

In places where you have to pump a pool out into the
sewer system, I wonder how it's done? They must have
a permanent connection available to pump it into.
Otherwise where would you put the pool pump hose
that could handle that volume of water?

The drain should be 4", no? I siphoned the cover of mine off with a
garden hose. 18" overnight was no problem. For more, an 1-1/2" line
emptied it plenty fast.


...but they never

have been accused of being smart. Lefties everywhere.

On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 22:09:31 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 18:33:15 -0700, Oren wrote:

Out here the street storm drains, on the street drain back to Lake
Mead. Many, not all, have embedded signs that say no toxic water, etc.

Why do people think a pool has toxic water in it?
A properly balanced pool will test virtually identical to city water
(based on WSSC in the DC area)
It tests right in the "ideal" range with a 2 bottle tester.

Someone might have peed in the pool!

On 10/14/2013 7:47 PM, wrote:

48K gallons here and no problem pumping it out onto
the ground. Of course it depends on the size of
your lot too. Acre+ here. I've only ever drained
it by about half, but there was no big pond or
anything to suggest that it couldn't take all of it.



That's a big pool.

Mine's only about 11k and drains on to a green belt. I try to be careful
to be sure the chlorine isn't high.





The utility says to pump it into sewer lines.



Odd.





Hey! I didn't write the local codes



Understood. In most places they draw-and-quarter anyone caught

discharging anything but household waste into the sanitary sewer.

Of course in the NE they're connected together.


Storm drains and sewer are not connected together here in NJ.
I don't think it's typical in the NE. NYC has some that
are combined, but I think that's the legacy systems and
new construction they are separate. It's really a disaster
having to process millions of gallons of rain water. Not
only is it expensive, but with a huge rain, it can overwhelm
the system so that actual raw sewage winds up discharged
into rivers, ocean, etc.

In places where you have to pump a pool out into the
sewer system, I wonder how it's done? They must have
a permanent connection available to pump it into.
Otherwise where would you put the pool pump hose
that could handle that volume of water?



I think they use a pump and a hose to the street. It can take a long
time. I'd make sure the chlorine is low and give the yard a good soaking.

My sister-in-law said her local fire dept will pump the water out. But
we're in the middle of a record drought. They are probably trying to be
creative.

On 10/15/2013 3:04 AM, gonjah wrote:

My sister-in-law said her local fire dept will pump the water out. But
we're in the middle of a record drought. They are probably trying to be
creative.


Well, they do often have some really nice water pumps.
They might be able to pump it out in a hurry.

I've heard of asking the FD to fill a pool. Pay the water
dept the price of the water, of course. Problem is, that
hydrant tap comes off the side of the main. The hydrant
water is often very rusty and brown. So, the FD would have
to flush the main until the water runs clear, and not sure
anyone wants to spend the time. Some districts do hydrant
flushing, but not many.


..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 10/14/2013 10:20 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 17:47:45 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Monday, October 14, 2013 8:30:20 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 16:37:25 -0700, Oren wrote:



On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 19:23:43 -0400, wrote:



On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 12:15:25 -0700, Oren wrote:



On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 14:26:49 -0400, wrote:



We have Lake Mead nearby... pool water is not supposed to be pumped

into the storm drains...



Where do you put it, into the sanitary drains?



I pump it into the back yard.



...and where does it go from there?





Last I checked it soaked into the earth. Or the trees took a drink.



20-30K gallons? That's some thirsty trees!


48K gallons here and no problem pumping it out onto
the ground. Of course it depends on the size of
your lot too. Acre+ here. I've only ever drained
it by about half, but there was no big pond or
anything to suggest that it couldn't take all of it.

I drained mine on the yard, too, but I lived next to a swamp (AKA a
lefty "wetlands"). Most don't. It's still putting all those nasty
"chemicals" into the watershed.

The utility says to pump it into sewer lines.



Odd.





Hey! I didn't write the local codes



Understood. In most places they draw-and-quarter anyone caught

discharging anything but household waste into the sanitary sewer.

Of course in the NE they're connected together.



SurvivalBlog.com http://www.survivalblog.com/index.html


The Daily Web Log for Prepared Individuals Living in Uncertain Times.


Wednesday, October 2, 2013




Four Letters Natural Gas Powered Generators in a Disaster--Their
Compressors, and Yours

http://www.survivalblog.com/2013/09/four-letters-re-natural-gas-powered-generators-in-a-disaster--their-compressors-and-yours.html

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http://www.survivalblog.com/2013/09/four_letters_re_natural_gas_powered_generators_in_ a_disaster__their_compressors_and_yours.html


Captain Rawles,
I saw the disagreement from the former natural gas industry gent located
in Texas about your grid assertions as they relate to potential natural
gas outages.

Two years ago in Northern New Mexico there was a multi-day natural gas
outage
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/feb/05/nation/la-na-gas-shortage-20110205
to 30,000 homes and it was due to precautionary measures from Texas,
caused by rolling blackouts. New Mexico made the decision to keep the
population centers pressurized since it would be more difficult to get
the pressure back up in those areas compared to the smaller yet more
remote pipelines in the northern part of the state. I have friends in
Taos, New Mexico that confirmed this for me. - G.P.

Mr Rawles -
You wrote: "Most residential refrigerators normally draw around 12 amps,
but the peak load (on startup), expressed as Locked Rotor Amps (LRAs),
can be substantially higher."

That might be true for /older /refrigerator designs, but is not true for
at least some modern refrigerators. We have a large Samsung French door
style refrigerator that draws (annual average) only 60 watts. When I
read the specifications I could hardly believe it so I ran the fridge on
a Kill-A-Watt meter for a couple of months to confirm. Running power
(compressor running) was 120 watts and the VA (what you want to use for
sizing an inverter) was 180 VA with the compressor running, but the
average over time was right where they claimed at 60 watts. To put this
into Amps, the running current is 1.5 Amps, and the average is around
0.75 Amps.

This is not some tiny little fridge but a very large 28 cubic foot model
with water and ice through the doors, LED lighting, and lots of nice
features.

I am currently building a dedicated solar electric system which with a
little bit of luck will allow me to take this fridge totally off-grid. -
R.R.

Dear James,
I've been repairing refrigerators for several years. It's true, they do
need a bigger [current] than you think compressor to start. One thing I
haven't actually tried, but makes sense. There is a compressor hard
start kit
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/Gra...ew?cm_mmc=PPC: Google
Main 1-_-Dynamic Search Ads 2 Test-_-HVAC-_-PAGE CONTENT contains
hvac&gclid=CLLEyOLj5rkCFSZxQgodbXgAGg, which is often used by us repair
guys, when the factory supplied compressor start relay goes bad. The
hard start kit contains a big start capacitor, which helps with torque.
Now, does that reduce the inrush starting current? I'm not sure, but it
would appear so.

If your existing generator isn't /quite big enough /to start the
refrigerator, might be able to call a refrigerator guy, and ask to have
a hard start kit put on. Or buy one online, you are electrically minded.

One of the readers writes about "locked rotor current," (LRC.) Most of
the literature and such that I read, talks about Locked Rotor Amps (LRA.)

Thanks for discussing the subjects few others want to get near. -
Regards, C.A.Y.

Hello JWR,
My experience with a 2 kilowatt generator (a Yamaha EF2000iS) avoided
all the study of LRA requirements. Using extension cords and a
through-the-wall connection, the little Yamaha runs /two/ full-size
refrigerators, a small chest-type freezer and a pellet stove most of the
night on a gallon of gasoline. Readers may be interested that the
bearings in the Yamaha are rated for twice the life of the bearings in a
Honda. Best Regards, - D.H.




Three Letters Natural Gas Powered Generators in a
Disaster--Their Compressors, and Yours

http://www.survivalblog.com/2013/09/three-letters-re-natural-gas-powered-generators-in-a-disaster--their-compressors-and-yours.html

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JWR,
Thank you for letting your readers know about [public utility] natural
gas system compressor stations. I, for one, was was blissfully ignorant
about them, and had just assumed that natural gas was "always on." So,
now knowing that, I can now see that a tri-fuel generator that can
quickly be changed to propane or gasoline would be best. Thanks also for
mentioning the capacity limits of generators. That I was aware of, but I
hadn't ever looked at the specs on my GE refrigerator/freezer. Now I can
see that I need to do a "load budget", to determine what I can leave
plugged in, and not bog down my generator. (It is a 3 KW, and all those
lights in the house add up a load, real quick.) - Curtis N.

Mr. R. -
Regarding residential refrigerators and generators - I've tested a few,
using a Kill-A-Watt http://www.snipurl.com/27lza2m and the Belkin
Insight Tester and a test rig I built to use a clamp-on type multimeter.
I've measured startup demands - locked rotor current (LRC) - and run
current on the last 2 refrigerators I've bought, and on several owned by
friends. I found that LRC averages between 1200 and 1400 watts,
depending on size and design. That's about 10-12 amps (NEC - National
Electrical Code - specifies that circuits be sized to use no more than
80% of the circuit's maximum capacity, so a nominal 15 amp circuit
should never have to carry more than 12 amps, which is why refrigerators
are on dedicated 15 amp circuits). The formula, BTW, is AMPS = WATTS
divided by VOLTS. Or, WATTS = AMPS x VOLTS. Use actual measured figures
for computation. For example, the utility-supplied voltage in my current
house is consistently between 120.2 and 120.4 volts. My Honda EU3000i
generator varies between about 114 and 122 volts depending on load.

Run current on every fridge I've tested - ranging from 18 cu ft to 26 cu
ft - settles in well under 200 watts after 2-3 minutes. My old Amana 25
cu ft side-by-side consumed only 141 watts after 3 minutes, my new
Samsung 26 cu ft consumes 155 running watts.

Fridge tip - outfit called ACU-RITE makes a wireless fridge and freezer
thermometer, about $30 at Amazon.com. Put one of the sensors in the
fridge, the other in the freezer, the display unit has a magnet to stick
on the outside. I suggest sensor placement near the warmest part of
each. Experiment to find where that is. I tested my old Amana by setting
the freezer control to "coldest" (which turned out to be -14 F) and
adjusted the fridge to 33-34 F on the top shelf without freezing stuff
below that shelf. Give the fridge 18-24 hours between setting changes to
stabilize internal temperature. I then unplugged the unit and monitored
temps. Without the doors being opened I found that the fridge rose to
46F in just under 6 hours, and when plugged back in took not quite 3
hours to get below 40F after cresting at 49F. The freezer never went
above +5 F. On this basis I figured I could put the generator on other
tasks for 5 hours at a time.

I experimented with [supplemental] external insulation, from blankets
and quilts to rigid foam. Best results were with 2" thick
polyisocyanurate sheets (Dow calls their version "Tuff-R") which have an
R value of about 6.5 per inch. Using an infrared thermometer I found the
weak spot in fridges is the door seals followed by the door itself, so I
cut the side and top panels to overlap the door edges. To insulate the
doors you'll have to remove the handles. Securing it with duct tape, and
sealing the sheet edge joints with duct tape, insulating the back (above
the opening for the compressor and related hardware), both sides, top
and doors, I got another 3 hours after unplugging before fridge temps
rose to 45-46F. - Nosmo


Mr. Rawles,
I don’t know where you got your information that the ‘norm’ for natural
gas pipeline compressor stations is electric powered. As a former
pipeline CEO of a large pipeline system and still a consultant to the
industry (therefore I believe that I have some basis in fact) I would
suggest at least on the inter and intra state pipeline transmission
systems as well as the majority of gathering systems the compressor
stations are powered by natural gas (taken from the pipeline that they
are compressing). Only in recent years has there been any real shift to
electric drive compressors and those are typically only in areas of the
country that are EPA challenged, i.e. they are considered
‘non-attainment’ areas regarding air quality and as such permits for new
equipment is difficult to obtain if they are gas fired.

[The EMP and grid failure risk that] is relevant is most of the control
systems [for natural gas pipelines] are run on *grid-supplied power *and
the vast amount of these controls are digital in some form or fashion
these days. Thanks, T.C. in Texas



Storm drains and sewer are not connected together here in NJ.

They most certainly are in most of the NE.

I don't think it's typical in the NE.

Wrong.

NYC has some that
are combined, but I think that's the legacy systems and
new construction they are separate. It's really a disaster
having to process millions of gallons of rain water. Not
only is it expensive, but with a huge rain, it can overwhelm
the system so that actual raw sewage winds up discharged
into rivers, ocean, etc.

They were in NY and VT. Every time they had a big rain, in the
Summer, they had to close all the beaches because the coliform levels
skyrocketed as the treatment plants overflowed.

In places where you have to pump a pool out into the
sewer system, I wonder how it's done? They must have
a permanent connection available to pump it into.
Otherwise where would you put the pool pump hose
that could handle that volume of water?

The drain should be 4", no? I siphoned the cover of mine off with a
garden hose. 18" overnight was no problem. For more, an 1-1/2" line
emptied it plenty fast.


...but they never

have been accused of being smart. Lefties everywhere.

Most pools have a "back flush" setting. Rinse out the
sand filter, and wash the various leaves and stuff
down the drain. Seems like that would work for emptying.
That's what my parents did.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Monday, October 14, 2013 10:20:24 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 17:47:45 -0700 (PDT), "

wrote:



On Monday, October 14, 2013 8:30:20 PM UTC-4, wrote:

On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 16:37:25 -0700, Oren wrote:







On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 19:23:43 -0400, wrote:







On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 12:15:25 -0700, Oren wrote:







On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 14:26:49 -0400, wrote:







We have Lake Mead nearby... pool water is not supposed to be pumped



into the storm drains...







Where do you put it, into the sanitary drains?







I pump it into the back yard.







...and where does it go from there?











Last I checked it soaked into the earth. Or the trees took a drink.







20-30K gallons? That's some thirsty trees!





48K gallons here and no problem pumping it out onto

the ground. Of course it depends on the size of

your lot too. Acre+ here. I've only ever drained

it by about half, but there was no big pond or

anything to suggest that it couldn't take all of it.



I drained mine on the yard, too, but I lived next to a swamp (AKA a

lefty "wetlands"). Most don't. It's still putting all those nasty

"chemicals" into the watershed.



The utility says to pump it into sewer lines.







Odd.











Hey! I didn't write the local codes







Understood. In most places they draw-and-quarter anyone caught



discharging anything but household waste into the sanitary sewer.



Of course in the NE they're connected together.





Storm drains and sewer are not connected together here in NJ.



They most certainly are in most of the NE.


How exactly are you defining "most of the NE"?
Population wise? geographically? by total number of
sewage treatment facilities? The storm water and waste
water systems are SEPARATE through most of that geographic
area, except for some old legacy systems in some cities.
The northeast isn't just those cities, it's a huge area.
Yes, some of those legacy systems are in the northeast, but
NYC and some other cities are not what I would call
the entire northeast, nor is most
of the stormwater in the northeast even generated in
cities period. It would be
pure insanity to take all the water from all the new parking
lots, roads, etc in the huge suburban areas in the last 50
years and send it into the municipal sewer
systems that then have to try to treat it. For one obvious
thing, if you're driving down a highway, road, etc. if you pass
a storm drain, there is a good chance there is a stream
not too far where the water can be sent directly. God
knows where the nearest sewage plant is.



I don't think it's typical in the NE.



Wrong.


Please show us a cite for that. I live in central NJ,
there is no such combined system anywhere near here.




NYC has some that

are combined, but I think that's the legacy systems and

new construction they are separate. It's really a disaster

having to process millions of gallons of rain water. Not

only is it expensive, but with a huge rain, it can overwhelm

the system so that actual raw sewage winds up discharged

into rivers, ocean, etc.



They were in NY and VT. Every time they had a big rain, in the

Summer, they had to close all the beaches because the coliform levels

skyrocketed as the treatment plants overflowed.


I already addressed NYC. NYC is not all the Northeast.
It's a very dense city and it's legacy sewer system
was designed over a century ago. It's not unique to NYC,
SF for example has a combined system, as do some
other large cities in the USA. The northeast probably has
more, because the northeast has more larger cities that
were developed long ago. I can tell you that the
systems are separate here in central NJ, where I live.

And with beach closings, you're assuming that because
a beach is closed after a heavy rain, it's because of
an event at the sewage treatment plant. That's incorrect.
We have occasional beach closings here at some beaches in NJ
after a heavy rain. It's not from rainwater going into
a combined system and overflowing the sewage plants.
It's from the stormwater going through the separate
stormwater system and flowing into the ocean. They
monitor for coliform bacteria by taking water samples
in the ocean. The ocean is where the separate stormwater
system water winds up, either directly, of after flowing
down streams, rivers, etc. There are a number of ways
coliform can get into the stormwater system. Dog
poop, geese poop and other animal waste being one example.
Animals poop in the street, on the lawn near the street,
heavy rains washes it into the stormwater drains.
It then winds up in the ocean untreated. And they are
testing the water for very low levels to be extra
cautious.

There are also many unknown sources, eg places where
a sanitary sewer pipe is leaking underground, near
a stormwater system and some of the water is accidentally
getting in. Or people who have malfunctioning septic
systems that are managing to leak into the stormwater
system. But the systems here are not combined by design.

NYC does, on occasion have an event where
they can't handle all the rainwater in their combined
system, and some winds up going untreated. There are
probably other combined systems like that in some cities in
the northeast. There are also plenty of times sewage
plants that are not part
of combined systems have events where they wind up
discharging some overflow, partially treated water,
etc. I would not be surprised that those events can
occur more often after a heavy rain. How many people
for example have an illegal sump pump connection or
are otherwise sending rain related water into the
sanitary sewer system where it's not supposed to go?








In places where you have to pump a pool out into the

sewer system, I wonder how it's done? They must have

a permanent connection available to pump it into.

Otherwise where would you put the pool pump hose

that could handle that volume of water?



The drain should be 4", no?

Drain? What drain? The main sewer line is typically 4".
My point was that you must have some special drain
close to the pool pad to put the pump out hose into or
else it must be plumbed in permanently. I don't have
any connection to the sewer outside to put a hose into,
especially that can handle 60 GPM.

On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 22:09:31 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 18:33:15 -0700, Oren wrote:

Out here the street storm drains, on the street drain back to Lake
Mead. Many, not all, have embedded signs that say no toxic water, etc.

Why do people think a pool has toxic water in it?
A properly balanced pool will test virtually identical to city water
(based on WSSC in the DC area)
It tests right in the "ideal" range with a 2 bottle tester.

Been awhile since I noticed the storm drain signs. The proper word
may be "pollution" and not toxins...

Perhaps intended to be a generalized statement so people will not put
used oil, water from a vehicle radiators and such into the storm
drain.

But then again, during heavy rains (seldom), oil is washed from the
streets into the storm drains.

Local code does require pool water to be sent to the sewer line, but
as I mentioned I drain it into the yard and do not consider it toxic.

On Tue, 15 Oct 2013 06:14:35 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Monday, October 14, 2013 10:20:24 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 17:47:45 -0700 (PDT), "

wrote:



On Monday, October 14, 2013 8:30:20 PM UTC-4, wrote:

On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 16:37:25 -0700, Oren wrote:







On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 19:23:43 -0400, wrote:







On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 12:15:25 -0700, Oren wrote:







On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 14:26:49 -0400, wrote:







We have Lake Mead nearby... pool water is not supposed to be pumped



into the storm drains...







Where do you put it, into the sanitary drains?







I pump it into the back yard.







...and where does it go from there?











Last I checked it soaked into the earth. Or the trees took a drink.







20-30K gallons? That's some thirsty trees!





48K gallons here and no problem pumping it out onto

the ground. Of course it depends on the size of

your lot too. Acre+ here. I've only ever drained

it by about half, but there was no big pond or

anything to suggest that it couldn't take all of it.



I drained mine on the yard, too, but I lived next to a swamp (AKA a

lefty "wetlands"). Most don't. It's still putting all those nasty

"chemicals" into the watershed.



The utility says to pump it into sewer lines.







Odd.











Hey! I didn't write the local codes







Understood. In most places they draw-and-quarter anyone caught



discharging anything but household waste into the sanitary sewer.



Of course in the NE they're connected together.





Storm drains and sewer are not connected together here in NJ.



They most certainly are in most of the NE.


How exactly are you defining "most of the NE"?

Most of NY. All of VT. Everywhere I've looked closely.

Population wise? geographically?

NYC covers the first.

by total number of
sewage treatment facilities? The storm water and waste
water systems are SEPARATE through most of that geographic
area, except for some old legacy systems in some cities.
The northeast isn't just those cities, it's a huge area.
Yes, some of those legacy systems are in the northeast, but
NYC and some other cities are not what I would call
the entire northeast, nor is most

Nope. Once the system overloads the treatment plants bypass.

of the stormwater in the northeast even generated in
cities period. It would be
pure insanity to take all the water from all the new parking
lots, roads, etc in the huge suburban areas in the last 50
years and send it into the municipal sewer
systems that then have to try to treat it. For one obvious
thing, if you're driving down a highway, road, etc. if you pass
a storm drain, there is a good chance there is a stream
not too far where the water can be sent directly. God
knows where the nearest sewage plant is.



I don't think it's typical in the NE.



Wrong.


Please show us a cite for that. I live in central NJ,
there is no such combined system anywhere near here.




NYC has some that

are combined, but I think that's the legacy systems and

new construction they are separate. It's really a disaster

having to process millions of gallons of rain water. Not

only is it expensive, but with a huge rain, it can overwhelm

the system so that actual raw sewage winds up discharged

into rivers, ocean, etc.



They were in NY and VT. Every time they had a big rain, in the

Summer, they had to close all the beaches because the coliform levels

skyrocketed as the treatment plants overflowed.


I already addressed NYC. NYC is not all the Northeast.
It's a very dense city and it's legacy sewer system
was designed over a century ago. It's not unique to NYC,
SF for example has a combined system, as do some
other large cities in the USA. The northeast probably has
more, because the northeast has more larger cities that
were developed long ago. I can tell you that the
systems are separate here in central NJ, where I live.

And with beach closings, you're assuming that because
a beach is closed after a heavy rain, it's because of
an event at the sewage treatment plant. That's incorrect.
We have occasional beach closings here at some beaches in NJ
after a heavy rain. It's not from rainwater going into
a combined system and overflowing the sewage plants.
It's from the stormwater going through the separate
stormwater system and flowing into the ocean. They
monitor for coliform bacteria by taking water samples
in the ocean. The ocean is where the separate stormwater
system water winds up, either directly, of after flowing
down streams, rivers, etc. There are a number of ways
coliform can get into the stormwater system. Dog
poop, geese poop and other animal waste being one example.
Animals poop in the street, on the lawn near the street,
heavy rains washes it into the stormwater drains.
It then winds up in the ocean untreated. And they are
testing the water for very low levels to be extra
cautious.

There are also many unknown sources, eg places where
a sanitary sewer pipe is leaking underground, near
a stormwater system and some of the water is accidentally
getting in. Or people who have malfunctioning septic
systems that are managing to leak into the stormwater
system. But the systems here are not combined by design.

NYC does, on occasion have an event where
they can't handle all the rainwater in their combined
system, and some winds up going untreated. There are
probably other combined systems like that in some cities in
the northeast. There are also plenty of times sewage
plants that are not part
of combined systems have events where they wind up
discharging some overflow, partially treated water,
etc. I would not be surprised that those events can
occur more often after a heavy rain. How many people
for example have an illegal sump pump connection or
are otherwise sending rain related water into the
sanitary sewer system where it's not supposed to go?








In places where you have to pump a pool out into the

sewer system, I wonder how it's done? They must have

a permanent connection available to pump it into.

Otherwise where would you put the pool pump hose

that could handle that volume of water?



The drain should be 4", no?

Drain? What drain? The main sewer line is typically 4".
My point was that you must have some special drain
close to the pool pad to put the pump out hose into or
else it must be plumbed in permanently. I don't have
any connection to the sewer outside to put a hose into,
especially that can handle 60 GPM.

On Tuesday, October 15, 2013 7:36:47 PM UTC-4, wrote:


They most certainly are in most of the NE.





How exactly are you defining "most of the NE"?



Most of NY. All of VT. Everywhere I've looked closely.


You've visited most of the sewer and stormwater
systems in NY state? VT too? And even if you have,
that isn't the entire northeast.

Those combined systems are in old cities where
the infrastructure was put in 100 years ago.
There has been a lot of new development in
the suburbs throughout the USA in the last many
decades and those don't have combined systems.
You haven't been able to build a new system like
that for many decades.




Population wise? geographically?



NYC covers the first.



You're saying NYC is the entire population or even most
of the population of the entire northeast? Good grief.
It's 15% of it.




by total number of

sewage treatment facilities?

And as usual, you won't answer a simple question, which
was how you're defining the northeast. You said:

"Of course in the NE they're (sanitary sewers and stormwater drains) connected together. ...but they never have been accused of being smart. Lefties everywhere.

Apparently what goes on in all of the northeast is
based on your personal observations in NY and VT.
You go researching sewage systems throughout the
state when you're on vacation?

I think part of the problem here is that in your
observations, you've made the faulty assumption that
any time a beach is closed because of water contamination after a heavy rain, it's due to a
combined sewer system. As I explained, small
sections of beach are closed occasionally after
heavy rains because they check for coliform and
it it's above a certain level, they close. But
that coliform is usually coming from the storm
drain system, not sewage plants of any kind.
Dog poop, geese poop, animal poop from lawns,
streets, etc gets flushed out with heavy rain water.
There isn't a single combined sewer system here
along the entire NJ shore.



Nope. Once the system overloads the treatment plants bypass.



Nope what, you edited this so it makes no sense.

On Wed, 16 Oct 2013 06:17:25 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Tuesday, October 15, 2013 7:36:47 PM UTC-4, wrote:


They most certainly are in most of the NE.





How exactly are you defining "most of the NE"?



Most of NY. All of VT. Everywhere I've looked closely.


You've visited most of the sewer and stormwater
systems in NY state? VT too? And even if you have,
that isn't the entire northeast.

All of NYC and Long Island. All of the MHV. You can see it in the
news reports after a big rain; sewage overflowing into the
rivers/ocean.

Those combined systems are in old cities where
the infrastructure was put in 100 years ago.

....and newer cities that didn't want to spend the money. When I lived
in VT, there was only one sewer system. Every time a downpour came,
sewage overflowed into Lake Champlain.

There has been a lot of new development in
the suburbs throughout the USA in the last many
decades and those don't have combined systems.
You haven't been able to build a new system like
that for many decades.

THe suburbs use the same treatment plants. They may be separate in
the 'burbs but it all goes together at the treatment plant.

In other places, yes, separate systems are the norm. The NE, no.

snipped redundant nonsense

On Wednesday, October 16, 2013 3:30:27 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 16 Oct 2013 06:17:25 -0700 (PDT), "

wrote:



On Tuesday, October 15, 2013 7:36:47 PM UTC-4, wrote:





They most certainly are in most of the NE.




How exactly are you defining "most of the NE"?







Most of NY. All of VT. Everywhere I've looked closely.





You've visited most of the sewer and stormwater

systems in NY state? VT too? And even if you have,

that isn't the entire northeast.



All of NYC and Long Island.

You really visited all those sewer systems to find out if
they were combined or separate? Really? Concerning Long Island:

From the NY State DEP:

Combined Sewer Overflow (CSO)

What are Combined Sewers?
Combined sewers are found across New York State (NYS), except on Long Island. ...

So, Long Island has none, but you found them. I can only
imagine the choice words you would have been directing at
someone else that came up with that whopper.

All of the MHV. You can see it in the

news reports after a big rain; sewage overflowing into the

rivers/ocean.




Are you as sure about those news reports after a big rain
as you are about there being combined sewer systems on
Long Island?




Those combined systems are in old cities where

the infrastructure was put in 100 years ago.



...and newer cities that didn't want to spend the money. When I lived

in VT, there was only one sewer system.

BS. It's obviously physically and geographically impossible for there
to be only one sewer system in the whole state.


Every time a downpour came,

sewage overflowed into Lake Champlain.



I've acknowledged that there are combined systems in some
locations in the northeast. That doesn't mean that they
are combined in "all the northeast". There isn't a single
one for example here along the NJ shore, from Sandy Hook
to Cape May, over 125 miles of beaches. There are combined
systems in the big cities, some smaller ones too, mostly
in the area closest to NYC.





There has been a lot of new development in

the suburbs throughout the USA in the last many

decades and those don't have combined systems.

You haven't been able to build a new system like

that for many decades.



THe suburbs use the same treatment plants. They may be separate in

the 'burbs but it all goes together at the treatment plant.


OMG, you can't possibly be that dumb. All the sewage from
all the suburbs in an entire state goes into one sewage treatment
plant? You're nuts. There are sewage treatment plants here in
NJ, as in other states, that handle a relatively small geographical
area. There are a lot of separate plants. We don't pump our sewage
to Newark or some central place.






In other places, yes, separate systems are the norm. The NE, no.



You as sure about that as you are about there being combined
sewer systems on Long Island? You claimed they are responsible
for beach closings, yet there isn't a single one on LI.
There are way more separate systems here than combined. Look at
the Long Island example. Not one. NJ, like many states, has some.
But we have way more separate systems and no, all the stuff doesn't
go to one big honking plant somewhere. Talk about clueless.



snipped redundant nonsense

Yes, from what you've posted here, you're an expert in nonsense.
Maybe you should stick to how things work in TX or wherever the
hell it is you're from.