On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 00:45:07 +0000 (UTC), Jerry Peters
wrote:

In sci.electronics.repair wrote:
On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 14:54:31 +0100, Mike Tomlinson
wrote:

En el artículo , micky
escribió:

Well it was no placebo. I'd measured my speed a dozen times on a
website that does that before I changed the wire; and I measure it a
dozen times after I changed the wire, and it was consistent before and
consistent afterwards.

That's entirely possible. You changed untwisted wire for twisted pair
wire. Twisted pair cancels out interference, so I can well believe you
saw an increase in your DSL sync speed.

Nope. After a mile of crappy phone company, ten feet of more crap
isn't going to matter.

Sure it is. Do you understand what twisted-pair is? And why it's
necessary?

Yes, I do, actually. I've been a practicing hardware design engineer
for 40 years. I design this stuff.

The "mile of crappy phone company" wire is twisted pair for a reason.

Except when it isn't. It really is crappy. Hell, RF (DSLish) can be
transmitted over, even crappier, power lines.

Really, the last ten feet doesn't matter when the first five thousand
isn't ideal. ...and it isn't, by a *long* shot.

I'd suggest you learn something about RF signal propagation, which is
what we're discussing for DSL.

I suggest you learn something. Period.

On Wednesday, August 28, 2013 2:32:09 PM UTC-4, micky wrote:
On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 13:52:20 -0400, wrote:



On Tue, 27 Aug 2013 23:23:04 -0400, micky

wrote:



On Tue, 27 Aug 2013 11:54:29 -0500, CRNG

wrote:





My data usage is about 8Gbytes/month total down/up. Just curious:

what download speed do you typically get from U-Verse?

--

Web based forums are like subscribing to 10 different newspapers

and having to visit 10 different news stands to pickup each one.

Email list-server groups and USENET are like having all of those

newspapers delivered to your door every morning.



I don't remember my speed, and I have Verizon, but I used to use some

pretty thin phone wire (the kind used to go from the wall to the

phone) to go from the the interface box 50 feet to the DSL modem.

When I swtiched to thicker, stiffer, round, white wire, my download

speed tripled and is now about what Verizon promised.



Not buying it. After a mile of 24ga wire, a few tens of feet of 26ga

isn't going to matter a whit. You had something else wrong that

replacing the wire solved (or it was a good placebo).



Well it was no placebo. I'd measured my speed a dozen times on a

website that does that before I changed the wire; and I measure it a

dozen times after I changed the wire, and it was consistent before and

consistent afterwards.



As to why it changed, transmission of computer data is more

complicated than analog sound or power to run a light bulb. I added

sci.electronics.repair and maybe we'll find someone there who knows

more than we do.




Some of the things that effect DSL performance in addition
to line length are the wire gauge, any wire gauge changes along
the way and any bridge taps. When you switched to that new
wire, you didn't also get rid of a bridge tap that went to
another unused location in the house, did you? Any of those
things can effect performance, but it's one hell of an increase
and I would agree with krw that it's hard to imagine just
changing that 50 ft of wire made all that difference. DSL was
designed to work on typical phone wire and there can be
several miles of it between your DSL modem and the CO or
equivalent. If
there was a poor connection, a partial short, a bridge tap
that's picking up noise or connected to who knows what, and
any of that got fixed at the same time, I could more easily
see that making such a big difference.

On Tuesday, August 27, 2013 6:28:08 AM UTC-5, CRNG wrote:
Anyone here have experience with AT&T DSL service/repair? I'm considering switching to AT&T DSL and was wondering how well they respond to line problems. -- Web based forums are like subscribing to 10 different newspapers and having to visit 10 different news stands to pickup each one. Email list-server groups and USENET are like having all of those newspapers delivered to your door every morning.

But a bridge tap, that is open at the far end, will look like a short-circuit somewhere back toward its junction with the main line. The length of bridged line that will look like a short-circuit at the bridge tap depends on the electrical characteristics of the bridging wire and the frequencyof the signals. But if the overall circuit is close to being marginal, the extra 50 feet of wire bridged onto the main wire may very well be just enough of an impedance discontinuity to render the DSL ineffective. When we converted to DSL, I made sure that the line/wire from the telco point of presence to where the DSL signal was filtered/split off from the main telephone line was a straight shot, no splices or any dicontinuities. Once past the DSL filter, the phone line goes to several locations in both star and mesh configurations.

On Friday, August 30, 2013 2:05:45 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 00:45:07 +0000 (UTC), Jerry Peters

wrote:



In sci.electronics.repair wrote:

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 14:54:31 +0100, Mike Tomlinson

wrote:



En el artículo , micky

escribió:



Well it was no placebo. I'd measured my speed a dozen times on a

website that does that before I changed the wire; and I measure it a

dozen times after I changed the wire, and it was consistent before and

consistent afterwards.



That's entirely possible. You changed untwisted wire for twisted pair

wire. Twisted pair cancels out interference, so I can well believe you

saw an increase in your DSL sync speed.



Nope. After a mile of crappy phone company, ten feet of more crap

isn't going to matter.



Sure it is. Do you understand what twisted-pair is? And why it's

necessary?



Yes, I do, actually. I've been a practicing hardware design engineer

for 40 years. I design this stuff.



The "mile of crappy phone company" wire is twisted pair for a reason.



Except when it isn't. It really is crappy. Hell, RF (DSLish) can be

transmitted over, even crappier, power lines.



Really, the last ten feet doesn't matter when the first five thousand

isn't ideal. ...and it isn't, by a *long* shot.



I'd suggest you learn something about RF signal propagation, which is

what we're discussing for DSL.



I suggest you learn something. Period.

The whole point of DSL was that it was designed to work over
the existing installed based of far from perfect phone wiring
that exists not only from the phone company to the premise,
but within the premise.
That would allow digital service to be delivered without the
huge cost of a new infrastructure or modifying the existing one.
The total length of wire can be as much as 3 miles, from
the phone company CO or other eqpt, through the house wiring,
to the DSL modem. All of that is just plain old phone wire. What
kind of data rate you can get does depend on the gauge of the
wire, the number of gauge changes along the way, any bridge
taps, etc. On a short line without the above imperfections,
you get the highest rate. On the longest line, with many
imperfections you get a lower rate, or in some cases it may not
work at all.

But like KRW, I'm having a hard time trying to see how changing
out the last 50 ft of traditional phone wire and replacing it
with something else, suddenly results in a 3X speed improvement.
If the line length went from 3 miles to 1/2 mile, I could see
it. If several bridge taps or loading coils were removed, I could
see it. I'm wondering if the real problem was not something
loose, eg a poor connection at the ends where the 50 ft
cable was being changed out, and maybe the new cable made
good contact where the other one did not. It would seem to me
that if DSL were that sensitive to a piece of regular 50ft phone
wire, the whole thing would not work, almost everyone would
be having all kinds of problems, and they could never roll it
out. IMO something unusual, whatever it is, was happening
here.

On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 18:57:07 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Tuesday, August 27, 2013 6:28:08 AM UTC-5, CRNG wrote:
Anyone here have experience with AT&T DSL service/repair? I'm considering switching to AT&T DSL and was wondering how well they respond to line problems. -- Web based forums are like subscribing to 10 different newspapers and having to visit 10 different news stands to pickup each one. Email list-server groups and USENET are like having all of those newspapers delivered to your door every morning.

But a bridge tap, that is open at the far end, will look like a short-circuit somewhere back toward its junction with the main line. The length of bridged line that will look like a short-circuit at the bridge tap depends on the electrical characteristics of the bridging wire and the frequencyof the signals.

While that's true, it forgets (at least) two thing. For realistic
taps, the resonant frequency is far above what DSL uses (or what the
phone line is capable of). The other assumption is that there is no
learning between the modems. The modems are capable of negotiating
baud rates and symbol depths to avoid network anomalies (sometimes
down shifting because of crappy networks - i.e. you don't get
advertised bandwidth).

But if the overall circuit is close to being marginal, the extra 50 feet of wire bridged onto the main wire may very well be just enough of an impedance discontinuity to render the DSL ineffective.

Bull****. DSL isn't go/no-go. It isn't that dumb.

When we converted to DSL, I made sure that the line/wire from the telco point of presence to where the DSL signal was filtered/split off from the main telephone line was a straight shot, no splices or any dicontinuities.

That's a good thing to do, but it doesn't matter much. Most homes now
have telephone "stared" from a media closet to each room. DSL modems
tend to be put next to the computer. It works.

Once past the DSL filter, the phone line goes to several locations in both star and mesh configurations.

Every new house is wired this way. It doesn't matter.

On Sat, 31 Aug 2013 07:04:26 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:




But like KRW, I'm having a hard time trying to see how changing
out the last 50 ft of traditional phone wire and replacing it
with something else, suddenly results in a 3X speed improvement.
If the line length went from 3 miles to 1/2 mile, I could see
it. If several bridge taps or loading coils were removed, I could
see it. I'm wondering if the real problem was not something
loose, eg a poor connection at the ends where the 50 ft
cable was being changed out, and maybe the new cable made

See, you just listed a possibility that could make it triple speed.
Yes,it is hard to believe but we did not see the old wire and
connections.

I recently had problems on my DSL line the ATT lineman made a few
changes, including the line to the house. I guess you could say my
speed increase 5000x since it was 0 before the repairs.

Broadbandreports.com test 5011 Kbs down, 641 up. Best I ever got.

On Sat, 31 Aug 2013 10:54:17 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On Sat, 31 Aug 2013 07:04:26 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:




But like KRW, I'm having a hard time trying to see how changing
out the last 50 ft of traditional phone wire and replacing it
with something else, suddenly results in a 3X speed improvement.
If the line length went from 3 miles to 1/2 mile, I could see
it. If several bridge taps or loading coils were removed, I could
see it. I'm wondering if the real problem was not something
loose, eg a poor connection at the ends where the 50 ft
cable was being changed out, and maybe the new cable made

See, you just listed a possibility that could make it triple speed.

Loading coils? Bad connections? Sure, they can cause all sorts of
problems. Bridge taps? Tens of feet long? Not going to happen. The
issue is certainly *NOT* the wire gauge or twisted pair vs. untwisted
phone wire.

Yes,it is hard to believe but we did not see the old wire and
connections.

That something was faulty; believable. That it was the wire gauge -
not credible.

I recently had problems on my DSL line the ATT lineman made a few
changes, including the line to the house. I guess you could say my
speed increase 5000x since it was 0 before the repairs.

Well... What's the wire gauge of an open?

Broadbandreports.com test 5011 Kbs down, 641 up. Best I ever got.

On Saturday, August 31, 2013 8:09:23 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 31 Aug 2013 10:54:17 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:



On Sat, 31 Aug 2013 07:04:26 -0700 (PDT), "

wrote:









But like KRW, I'm having a hard time trying to see how changing

out the last 50 ft of traditional phone wire and replacing it

with something else, suddenly results in a 3X speed improvement.

If the line length went from 3 miles to 1/2 mile, I could see

it. If several bridge taps or loading coils were removed, I could

see it. I'm wondering if the real problem was not something

loose, eg a poor connection at the ends where the 50 ft

cable was being changed out, and maybe the new cable made



See, you just listed a possibility that could make it triple speed.



Loading coils? Bad connections? Sure, they can cause all sorts of

problems. Bridge taps? Tens of feet long? Not going to happen.

Bridge taps most certainly do effect the transmission on DSL lines.
They were one of the design concerns well known from the beginning
when the Telcos first started to work on developing DSL. A line without
bridge taps is best. The more bridge taps, the more difficult it
becomes to transmit and transmission rate typically decreases.



The

issue is certainly *NOT* the wire gauge or twisted pair vs. untwisted

phone wire.



As I said, I agree that just changing that one short piece of wire, I
don't see how it accounts for a 3x performance difference. But wire gauge does effect performance and wire *gauge changes* also effect performance. Let's say you had two DSL lines, both a mile long, both have a half mile of 22 gauge,
half a mile of 26 gauge using same wire. But one line has
an entire continuous half mile of the 22 gauge,
followed by a continuous half mile of 26. The
other keeps changing gauge back and forth at various intervals for a total
of 20 gauge changes The latter line will have
a lower DSL speed capability than the first line, because instead of
1 gauge change, it has 20 gauge changes along the way.

So, his gauge change could effect the performance, I just
can't see how it could effect it by a factor of 3X.

On Sun, 1 Sep 2013 06:21:43 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Saturday, August 31, 2013 8:09:23 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 31 Aug 2013 10:54:17 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:



On Sat, 31 Aug 2013 07:04:26 -0700 (PDT), "

wrote:









But like KRW, I'm having a hard time trying to see how changing

out the last 50 ft of traditional phone wire and replacing it

with something else, suddenly results in a 3X speed improvement.

If the line length went from 3 miles to 1/2 mile, I could see

it. If several bridge taps or loading coils were removed, I could

see it. I'm wondering if the real problem was not something

loose, eg a poor connection at the ends where the 50 ft

cable was being changed out, and maybe the new cable made



See, you just listed a possibility that could make it triple speed.



Loading coils? Bad connections? Sure, they can cause all sorts of

problems. Bridge taps? Tens of feet long? Not going to happen.

Bridge taps most certainly do effect the transmission on DSL lines.

Not tens of feet long. Until a significant fraction of a wavelength
they're not an issue.

They were one of the design concerns well known from the beginning
when the Telcos first started to work on developing DSL. A line without
bridge taps is best. The more bridge taps, the more difficult it
becomes to transmit and transmission rate typically decreases.

The

issue is certainly *NOT* the wire gauge or twisted pair vs. untwisted

phone wire.



As I said, I agree that just changing that one short piece of wire, I
don't see how it accounts for a 3x performance difference. But wire gauge does effect performance and wire *gauge changes* also effect performance. Let's say you had two DSL lines, both a mile long, both have a half mile of 22 gauge,
half a mile of 26 gauge using same wire.

The issue was interior wiring.

But one line has
an entire continuous half mile of the 22 gauge,
followed by a continuous half mile of 26. The
other keeps changing gauge back and forth at various intervals for a total
of 20 gauge changes The latter line will have
a lower DSL speed capability than the first line, because instead of
1 gauge change, it has 20 gauge changes along the way.

So, his gauge change could effect the performance, I just
can't see how it could effect it by a factor of 3X.

Not the interior wiring.