Our house from the 1870s has some places in its brick foundation where the mortar has deteriorated.

Everything I read, such as http://www.nps.gov/tps/how-to-preser...tar-joints.htm , says it's very important to use a soft mortar with soft historic bricks. And that when masons use modern hard mortars with a high Portland cement content, it eventually damages the bricks. But I've had trouble finding out what exactly this soft mortar should be.

One mason told me he'd use type N mortar (750 psi) for this project, rather than the type S (1800 psi) he'd use on modern bricks. Is type N soft enough, or is it exactly what *shouldn't* be used?

http://www.finehomebuilding.com/how-...type-need.aspx says type N is 1 part Portland cement, 1 part lime and 6 parts sand. 1 part white Portland cement, 2 1/2 parts hydrated lime, and 5 to 6 parts sand

http://www.sacredplaces.org/PSP-Info...%20Masonry.htm says 1 part white Portland cement, 2 1/2 parts hydrated lime, and 5 to 6 parts sand is recommended for 19th century row houses in NYC.

Is there a commercially available mortar for historic bricks, or does it have to be formulated by hand? Should I insist that the mason uses that 1 : 2.5 : 5 ratio?

Jimmy

wrote in message

Our house from the 1870s has some places in its brick
foundation where the mortar has deteriorated.

Everything I read, such as
http://www.nps.gov/tps/how-to-preser...tar-joints.htm
, says it's very important to use a soft mortar with soft
historic bricks. And that when masons use modern hard
mortars with a high Portland cement content, it
eventually damages the bricks. But I've had trouble
finding out what exactly this soft mortar should be.

Depending on the age, lime mortar.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lime_mortar

More...
http://construction.about.com/od/Mas...rtar-Types.htm


--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

wrote in message
...
Our house from the 1870s has some places in its brick foundation where the
mortar has deteriorated.
Everything I read, such as
http://www.nps.gov/tps/how-to-preser...tar-joints.htm
, says it's very important to use a soft mortar with soft historic bricks.
And that when masons use modern hard mortars with a high Portland cement
content, it eventually damages the bricks. But I've had trouble finding
out what exactly this soft mortar should be.
One mason told me he'd use type N mortar (750 psi) for this project,
rather than the type S (1800 psi) he'd use on modern bricks. Is type N
soft enough, or is it exactly what *shouldn't* be used?
http://www.finehomebuilding.com/how-...type-need.aspx
says type N is 1 part Portland cement, 1 part lime and 6 parts sand. 1
part white Portland cement, 2 1/2 parts hydrated lime, and 5 to 6 parts
sand
http://www.sacredplaces.org/PSP-Info...%20Masonry.htm
says 1 part white Portland cement, 2 1/2 parts hydrated lime, and 5 to 6
parts sand is recommended for 19th century row houses in NYC.
Is there a commercially available mortar for historic bricks, or does it
have to be formulated by hand? Should I insist that the mason uses that 1
: 2.5 : 5 ratio?
Jimmy

It all in the Sides of the Sand

Hard Sand # 1
Medium Hard Sand # 2
Medium Soft Sand #3
Soft Sand # 4

dadiOH wrote:
wrote:
Our house from the 1870s has some places in its brick
foundation where the mortar has deteriorated.

Everything I read, such as
http://www.nps.gov/tps/how-to-preser...tar-joints.htm
, says it's very important to use a soft mortar with soft
historic bricks. And that when masons use modern hard
mortars with a high Portland cement content, it
eventually damages the bricks. But I've had trouble
finding out what exactly this soft mortar should be.

Depending on the age, lime mortar.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lime_mortar

More...
http://construction.about.com/od/Mas...rtar-Types.htm

Thanks for the post, but it doesn't really answer my questions.

Are you suggesting a lime mortar with no cement? That contradicts the info at sacredplaces.org, which recommends a small amount of cement in the mixture. And the wikipedia article doesn't say what specifications I should require from a mason.

I know about the specifications for types M, S, N, O, and K mortar. My question was, is the correct mortar for historic brick one of those types, or something totally different?

Do you have experience repointing historic bricks?

Jimmy

wrote in message

dadiOH wrote:
wrote:
Our house from the 1870s has some places in its brick
foundation where the mortar has deteriorated.

Everything I read, such as
http://www.nps.gov/tps/how-to-preser...tar-joints.htm
, says it's very important to use a soft mortar with
soft historic bricks. And that when masons use
modern hard mortars with a high Portland cement
content, it eventually damages the bricks. But I've
had trouble finding out what exactly this soft mortar
should be.

Depending on the age, lime mortar.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lime_mortar

More...
http://construction.about.com/od/Mas...rtar-Types.htm

Thanks for the post, but it doesn't really answer my
questions.

Are you suggesting a lime mortar with no cement? That
contradicts the info at sacredplaces.org, which
recommends a small amount of cement in the mixture. And
the wikipedia article doesn't say what specifications I
should require from a mason.

I know about the specifications for types M, S, N, O, and
K mortar. My question was, is the correct mortar for
historic brick one of those types, or something totally
different?

And I repeat, how old are they? Lots of buildings were stuck together with
lime mortar, I have no idea if yours was or not.

Best suggestion, follow the advice of your mason but have the specs in the
contract so you can sue if he is wrong.
____________________

Do you have experience repointing historic bricks?

None whatsoever. I just know what "soft" nortar refers to.


--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On Fri, 2 Aug 2013 08:40:44 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

Our house from the 1870s has some places in its brick foundation where the mortar has deteriorated.

Everything I read, such as http://www.nps.gov/tps/how-to-preser...tar-joints.htm , says it's very important to use a soft mortar with soft historic bricks. And that when masons use modern hard mortars with a high Portland cement content, it eventually damages the bricks. But I've had trouble finding out what exactly this soft mortar should be.

One mason told me he'd use type N mortar (750 psi) for this project, rather than the type S (1800 psi) he'd use on modern bricks. Is type N soft enough, or is it exactly what *shouldn't* be used?

http://www.finehomebuilding.com/how-...type-need.aspx says type N is 1 part Portland cement, 1 part lime and 6 parts sand. 1 part white Portland cement, 2 1/2 parts hydrated lime, and 5 to 6 parts sand

http://www.sacredplaces.org/PSP-Info...%20Masonry.htm says 1 part white Portland cement, 2 1/2 parts hydrated lime, and 5 to 6 parts sand is recommended for 19th century row houses in NYC.

Is there a commercially available mortar for historic bricks, or does it have to be formulated by hand? Should I insist that the mason uses that 1 : 2.5 : 5 ratio?

Jimmy

Maybe you can viist or track down by phone or web, the masons who work
at Colonial Williamsburg Va. or some place like that. I think the
buildings there are original. Yes, some are original although some
are from 1699 to 1780. Maybe that's too old?) Or maybe locally there
is even one brick building from the period, that is owned by the local
historical society. Or maybe the historical society where you are or
in a big city has a mason who knows about this.

Any big brick building from the period that is in good condition might
lead you to someone who really knows what he's talking about. Most
people will talk to you for free. Especially at 4PM.

dadiOH wrote:
wrote:
dadiOH wrote:
wrote:
Our house from the 1870s has some places in its brick
foundation where the mortar has deteriorated.
Everything I read, such as
http://www.nps.gov/tps/how-to-preser...tar-joints.htm
, says it's very important to use a soft mortar with
soft historic bricks. And that when masons use
modern hard mortars with a high Portland cement
content, it eventually damages the bricks. But I've
had trouble finding out what exactly this soft mortar
should be.
Depending on the age, lime mortar.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lime_mortar
More...
http://construction.about.com/od/Mas...rtar-Types.htm
Thanks for the post, but it doesn't really answer my
questions.
Are you suggesting a lime mortar with no cement? That
contradicts the info at sacredplaces.org, which
recommends a small amount of cement in the mixture. And
the wikipedia article doesn't say what specifications I
should require from a mason.

I know about the specifications for types M, S, N, O, and
K mortar. My question was, is the correct mortar for
historic brick one of those types, or something totally
different?

And I repeat, how old are they? Lots of buildings were stuck together with
lime mortar, I have no idea if yours was or not.

1870s.

Best suggestion, follow the advice of your mason but have the specs in the
contract so you can sue if he is wrong.

I need to know what to ask for in the specs. In a few places, some mason did inappropriate work in the past -- modern high-cement mortar (it "pings" when you drop a chunk of it, and you can't scrape it with your fingernail). So I don't want to just leave it to a mason without specifying the correct mortar type.

Jimmy

On Fri, 02 Aug 2013 13:40:50 -0700, wrote:

...snip....

Thanks for the post, but it doesn't really answer my questions.

Are you suggesting a lime mortar with no cement? That contradicts the
info at sacredplaces.org, which recommends a small amount of cement in
the mixture. And the wikipedia article doesn't say what specifications
I should require from a mason.

I know about the specifications for types M, S, N, O, and K mortar. My
question was, is the correct mortar for historic brick one of those
types, or something totally different?

Do you have experience repointing historic bricks?

Jimmy

Contact local, or nearby City's Historical Society. Large cities have some
very skilled, knowledgeable people who will help with your question. Also,
I've had no trouble reaching people at the Smithsonian in Washington, DC.
who either told me how to do something myself, had me send items to them
for repair, or provided a LONG list of recommended/approved 'repairers'