I've been interested in finding a more acceptable solution to indoor
lighting than the usual spiral CFLs for a while now, yesterday I was
researching LED light bulbs as I was actually repairing an outdoor post
light (and am trying a 4W LED in it, although I don't think it's bright
enough for the application) and found this:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips-1...0#BVRRWidgetID


which is available at select (read: almost none) Home Depots but the
secret is that if you can find them, they're apparently subsidized by
local utilities or something to about $15 apiece, not the $50 listed on
the web site. A store about 50 miles away from me had a stock of them
however and I have a friend who works in that area so I imposed on him
to get me a couple.

I have a feeling I need more of these. They have a CRI of 92 (normal
CFLs and most LEDs are in the 70-80 range) Surprisingly, HD does not
even mention CRI at all in their description of this product although to
me it's a bigger deal than the efficiency. However if you research the
L-prize you'll find that a CRI of 90 was one of the conditions. They
also turn on instantly, and are actually bright. Well, almost instantly
- there's a very brief but noticable delay between flipping the switch
and getting light. It's really the one way you can tell that you're not
turning on an incandescent bulb but something more complicated and
electronic. I remember when we didn't try to skimp on light bulb size
and actually lit up a room, but since switching to CFLs it's hard to get
enough light in some spaces. Two of these 10W bulbs are definitely
brighter than the single 40W CFL with which I was trying to light up a
difficult room (dark paneling, main lighting from a torchiere with a
dark colored shade that reflects most of the light up, would have been
acceptable with a 200+ watt 3-way incandescent which is what it was
obviously designed for, but nothing else produced acceptable light) and
there's none of that annoying brightness ramp-up that you get from CFLs.

One thing that I have not tested with these bulbs is dimming ability.
Supposedly it works, but some dimmers will buzz and hum. But if you
don't have dimmers, don't have fully enclosed light fixtures, and don't
mind (or can't see in your application) the odd shape/color of the bulb
when unlit, there's really nothing at all I can find fault with.

Best part - this bulb is actually assembled in the USA, and apparently
the LEDs used are made in the USA as well!

This may be old news for some as apparently they've been available @ HD
at the discounted price for about a month now, but I figured this was
worth posting because a) I don't go into HD that often and b) even if I
did, none of the stores local to me carry this bulb so if I hadn't gone
looking for it online I would not have known that it was actually
available (and if someone hadn't mentioned to check the price, the $50
price listed on HD's web site would have put me off...)

Hope this helps someone...

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 04/26/2013 07:00 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
I've been interested in finding a more acceptable solution to indoor
lighting than the usual spiral CFLs for a while now, yesterday I was
researching LED light bulbs as I was actually repairing an outdoor post
light (and am trying a 4W LED in it, although I don't think it's bright
enough for the application) and found this:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips-1...0#BVRRWidgetID


which is available at select (read: almost none) Home Depots but the
secret is that if you can find them, they're apparently subsidized by
local utilities or something to about $15 apiece, not the $50 listed on
the web site. A store about 50 miles away from me had a stock of them
however and I have a friend who works in that area so I imposed on him
to get me a couple.

I have a feeling I need more of these. They have a CRI of 92 (normal
CFLs and most LEDs are in the 70-80 range) Surprisingly, HD does not
even mention CRI at all in their description of this product although to
me it's a bigger deal than the efficiency. However if you research the
L-prize you'll find that a CRI of 90 was one of the conditions. They
also turn on instantly, and are actually bright. Well, almost instantly
- there's a very brief but noticable delay between flipping the switch
and getting light. It's really the one way you can tell that you're not
turning on an incandescent bulb but something more complicated and
electronic. I remember when we didn't try to skimp on light bulb size
and actually lit up a room, but since switching to CFLs it's hard to get
enough light in some spaces. Two of these 10W bulbs are definitely
brighter than the single 40W CFL with which I was trying to light up a
difficult room (dark paneling, main lighting from a torchiere with a
dark colored shade that reflects most of the light up, would have been
acceptable with a 200+ watt 3-way incandescent which is what it was
obviously designed for, but nothing else produced acceptable light) and
there's none of that annoying brightness ramp-up that you get from CFLs.

One thing that I have not tested with these bulbs is dimming ability.
Supposedly it works, but some dimmers will buzz and hum. But if you
don't have dimmers, don't have fully enclosed light fixtures, and don't
mind (or can't see in your application) the odd shape/color of the bulb
when unlit, there's really nothing at all I can find fault with.

Best part - this bulb is actually assembled in the USA, and apparently
the LEDs used are made in the USA as well!

This may be old news for some as apparently they've been available @ HD
at the discounted price for about a month now, but I figured this was
worth posting because a) I don't go into HD that often and b) even if I
did, none of the stores local to me carry this bulb so if I hadn't gone
looking for it online I would not have known that it was actually
available (and if someone hadn't mentioned to check the price, the $50
price listed on HD's web site would have put me off...)

Hope this helps someone...

nate


Forgot to add... the really amusing thing about this bulb is the
packaging. Philips hits a home run with this product which will likely
primarily appeal to eco-weenies and people who actually geek out over
things like light bulbs... and yet the packaging is that awful heat
sealed clamshell plastic, and about 3x as large as it needs to be. I
can't imagine any packaging more annoying, or, here's the ironic bit,
less eco-friendly...

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 4/26/2013 7:05 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
Forgot to add... the really amusing thing about this bulb is the
packaging. Philips hits a home run with this product which will likely
primarily appeal to eco-weenies and people who actually geek out over
things like light bulbs... and yet the packaging is that awful heat
sealed clamshell plastic, and about 3x as large as it needs to be.

You can thank the democrats for today's clam-shell packaging. You see,
lazy Democrats are used to free government handouts like free cell
phones, free housing and of course the WIC program. But the government
has failed them a bit. There is no free light bulb program so the lazy
democraps have to go to Lowes Depot and steal them.

Maybe we need a USF type fund for light bulbs?

Mitt Romley wrote:
On 4/26/2013 7:05 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
Forgot to add... the really amusing thing about this bulb is the
packaging. Philips hits a home run with this product which will
likely primarily appeal to eco-weenies and people who actually geek
out over things like light bulbs... and yet the packaging is that
awful heat sealed clamshell plastic, and about 3x as large as it
needs to be.

You can thank the democrats for today's clam-shell packaging. You
see, lazy Democrats are used to free government handouts like free
cell phones, free housing and of course the WIC program. But the
government has failed them a bit. There is no free light bulb
program so the lazy democraps have to go to Lowes Depot and steal
them.

LOL! It's hard to believe how wacko the rightards have gotten.

We rightards are only reflecting on what
your Lib/Dems are doing to the country.
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..
..
"Bob F" wrote in message ...
You can thank the democrats for today's clam-shell packaging. You
see, lazy Democrats are used to free government handouts like free
cell phones, free housing and of course the WIC program. But the
government has failed them a bit. There is no free light bulb
program so the lazy democraps have to go to Lowes Depot and steal
them.

LOL! It's hard to believe how wacko the rightards have gotten.

On 04/26/2013 05:07 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
We rightards are only reflecting on what
your Lib/Dems are doing to the country.
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
.
"Bob F" wrote in message ...
You can thank the democrats for today's clam-shell packaging. You
see, lazy Democrats are used to free government handouts like free
cell phones, free housing and of course the WIC program. But the
government has failed them a bit. There is no free light bulb
program so the lazy democraps have to go to Lowes Depot and steal
them.

LOL! It's hard to believe how wacko the rightards have gotten.


Less than a day, and a thread about light bulbs has gone to the usual
polarizing political comments... guess I should have expected that.

I'm still happy with my new LED "bulbs." I like old incandescents. (in
fact, I saw on the shelf at the Orange Colored Store, which I stopped at
last night to buy a socket extender, some incandescent bulbs with
vintage-styled envelopes and filament configurations. Was tempted to
grab a couple, but don't know what I would do with them.) But before
you think I'm a fluorescent hater, I still have an old Dazor desk lamp
with some full-spectrum tubes in it that I still use as, well, a desk
lamp... That old magnetic ballast is kind of loud, but because I'm a
sucker for vintage and it's a heavy, quality-made piece, I keep it
around. When it dies (if it does before I do) I'll look into
retrofitting an electronic ballast and reworking the switch appropriately...

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 4/26/2013 7:05 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 04/26/2013 07:00 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
I've been interested in finding a more acceptable solution to indoor
lighting than the usual spiral CFLs for a while now, yesterday I was
researching LED light bulbs as I was actually repairing an outdoor post
light (and am trying a 4W LED in it, although I don't think it's bright
enough for the application) and found this:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips-1...0#BVRRWidgetID



which is available at select (read: almost none) Home Depots but the
secret is that if you can find them, they're apparently subsidized by
local utilities or something to about $15 apiece, not the $50 listed on
the web site. A store about 50 miles away from me had a stock of them
however and I have a friend who works in that area so I imposed on him
to get me a couple.

I have a feeling I need more of these. They have a CRI of 92 (normal
CFLs and most LEDs are in the 70-80 range) Surprisingly, HD does not
even mention CRI at all in their description of this product although to
me it's a bigger deal than the efficiency. However if you research the
L-prize you'll find that a CRI of 90 was one of the conditions. They
also turn on instantly, and are actually bright. Well, almost instantly
- there's a very brief but noticable delay between flipping the switch
and getting light. It's really the one way you can tell that you're not
turning on an incandescent bulb but something more complicated and
electronic. I remember when we didn't try to skimp on light bulb size
and actually lit up a room, but since switching to CFLs it's hard to get
enough light in some spaces. Two of these 10W bulbs are definitely
brighter than the single 40W CFL with which I was trying to light up a
difficult room (dark paneling, main lighting from a torchiere with a
dark colored shade that reflects most of the light up, would have been
acceptable with a 200+ watt 3-way incandescent which is what it was
obviously designed for, but nothing else produced acceptable light) and
there's none of that annoying brightness ramp-up that you get from CFLs.

One thing that I have not tested with these bulbs is dimming ability.
Supposedly it works, but some dimmers will buzz and hum. But if you
don't have dimmers, don't have fully enclosed light fixtures, and don't
mind (or can't see in your application) the odd shape/color of the bulb
when unlit, there's really nothing at all I can find fault with.

Best part - this bulb is actually assembled in the USA, and apparently
the LEDs used are made in the USA as well!

This may be old news for some as apparently they've been available @ HD
at the discounted price for about a month now, but I figured this was
worth posting because a) I don't go into HD that often and b) even if I
did, none of the stores local to me carry this bulb so if I hadn't gone
looking for it online I would not have known that it was actually
available (and if someone hadn't mentioned to check the price, the $50
price listed on HD's web site would have put me off...)

Hope this helps someone...

nate


Forgot to add... the really amusing thing about this bulb is the
packaging. Philips hits a home run with this product which will likely
primarily appeal to eco-weenies and people who actually geek out over
things like light bulbs... and yet the packaging is that awful heat
sealed clamshell plastic, and about 3x as large as it needs to be. I
can't imagine any packaging more annoying, or, here's the ironic bit,
less eco-friendly...

nate



Well, the plastic and cardboard are recyclable for those who care about
that sort of thing.

--
Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeros after @

On 04/26/2013 10:50 AM, willshak wrote:
On 4/26/2013 7:05 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 04/26/2013 07:00 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
I've been interested in finding a more acceptable solution to indoor
lighting than the usual spiral CFLs for a while now, yesterday I was
researching LED light bulbs as I was actually repairing an outdoor post
light (and am trying a 4W LED in it, although I don't think it's bright
enough for the application) and found this:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips-1...0#BVRRWidgetID




which is available at select (read: almost none) Home Depots but the
secret is that if you can find them, they're apparently subsidized by
local utilities or something to about $15 apiece, not the $50 listed on
the web site. A store about 50 miles away from me had a stock of them
however and I have a friend who works in that area so I imposed on him
to get me a couple.

I have a feeling I need more of these. They have a CRI of 92 (normal
CFLs and most LEDs are in the 70-80 range) Surprisingly, HD does not
even mention CRI at all in their description of this product although to
me it's a bigger deal than the efficiency. However if you research the
L-prize you'll find that a CRI of 90 was one of the conditions. They
also turn on instantly, and are actually bright. Well, almost instantly
- there's a very brief but noticable delay between flipping the switch
and getting light. It's really the one way you can tell that you're not
turning on an incandescent bulb but something more complicated and
electronic. I remember when we didn't try to skimp on light bulb size
and actually lit up a room, but since switching to CFLs it's hard to get
enough light in some spaces. Two of these 10W bulbs are definitely
brighter than the single 40W CFL with which I was trying to light up a
difficult room (dark paneling, main lighting from a torchiere with a
dark colored shade that reflects most of the light up, would have been
acceptable with a 200+ watt 3-way incandescent which is what it was
obviously designed for, but nothing else produced acceptable light) and
there's none of that annoying brightness ramp-up that you get from CFLs.

One thing that I have not tested with these bulbs is dimming ability.
Supposedly it works, but some dimmers will buzz and hum. But if you
don't have dimmers, don't have fully enclosed light fixtures, and don't
mind (or can't see in your application) the odd shape/color of the bulb
when unlit, there's really nothing at all I can find fault with.

Best part - this bulb is actually assembled in the USA, and apparently
the LEDs used are made in the USA as well!

This may be old news for some as apparently they've been available @ HD
at the discounted price for about a month now, but I figured this was
worth posting because a) I don't go into HD that often and b) even if I
did, none of the stores local to me carry this bulb so if I hadn't gone
looking for it online I would not have known that it was actually
available (and if someone hadn't mentioned to check the price, the $50
price listed on HD's web site would have put me off...)

Hope this helps someone...

nate


Forgot to add... the really amusing thing about this bulb is the
packaging. Philips hits a home run with this product which will likely
primarily appeal to eco-weenies and people who actually geek out over
things like light bulbs... and yet the packaging is that awful heat
sealed clamshell plastic, and about 3x as large as it needs to be. I
can't imagine any packaging more annoying, or, here's the ironic bit,
less eco-friendly...

nate



Well, the plastic and cardboard are recyclable for those who care about
that sort of thing.


Yabbut what would be so wrong with a simple folded cardboard box like
regular old light bulbs have been sold in for ages? We've been
recycling paper for a lot longer than we've been doing plastic, and not
all areas have plastic recycling.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 4/26/2013 11:22 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 04/26/2013 10:50 AM, willshak wrote:
On 4/26/2013 7:05 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 04/26/2013 07:00 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
I've been interested in finding a more acceptable solution to indoor
lighting than the usual spiral CFLs for a while now, yesterday I was
researching LED light bulbs as I was actually repairing an outdoor post
light (and am trying a 4W LED in it, although I don't think it's bright
enough for the application) and found this:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips-1...0#BVRRWidgetID





which is available at select (read: almost none) Home Depots but the
secret is that if you can find them, they're apparently subsidized by
local utilities or something to about $15 apiece, not the $50 listed on
the web site. A store about 50 miles away from me had a stock of them
however and I have a friend who works in that area so I imposed on him
to get me a couple.

I have a feeling I need more of these. They have a CRI of 92 (normal
CFLs and most LEDs are in the 70-80 range) Surprisingly, HD does not
even mention CRI at all in their description of this product
although to
me it's a bigger deal than the efficiency. However if you research the
L-prize you'll find that a CRI of 90 was one of the conditions. They
also turn on instantly, and are actually bright. Well, almost
instantly
- there's a very brief but noticable delay between flipping the switch
and getting light. It's really the one way you can tell that you're
not
turning on an incandescent bulb but something more complicated and
electronic. I remember when we didn't try to skimp on light bulb size
and actually lit up a room, but since switching to CFLs it's hard to
get
enough light in some spaces. Two of these 10W bulbs are definitely
brighter than the single 40W CFL with which I was trying to light up a
difficult room (dark paneling, main lighting from a torchiere with a
dark colored shade that reflects most of the light up, would have been
acceptable with a 200+ watt 3-way incandescent which is what it was
obviously designed for, but nothing else produced acceptable light) and
there's none of that annoying brightness ramp-up that you get from
CFLs.

One thing that I have not tested with these bulbs is dimming ability.
Supposedly it works, but some dimmers will buzz and hum. But if you
don't have dimmers, don't have fully enclosed light fixtures, and don't
mind (or can't see in your application) the odd shape/color of the bulb
when unlit, there's really nothing at all I can find fault with.

Best part - this bulb is actually assembled in the USA, and apparently
the LEDs used are made in the USA as well!

This may be old news for some as apparently they've been available @ HD
at the discounted price for about a month now, but I figured this was
worth posting because a) I don't go into HD that often and b) even if I
did, none of the stores local to me carry this bulb so if I hadn't gone
looking for it online I would not have known that it was actually
available (and if someone hadn't mentioned to check the price, the $50
price listed on HD's web site would have put me off...)

Hope this helps someone...

nate


Forgot to add... the really amusing thing about this bulb is the
packaging. Philips hits a home run with this product which will likely
primarily appeal to eco-weenies and people who actually geek out over
things like light bulbs... and yet the packaging is that awful heat
sealed clamshell plastic, and about 3x as large as it needs to be. I
can't imagine any packaging more annoying, or, here's the ironic bit,
less eco-friendly...

nate



Well, the plastic and cardboard are recyclable for those who care about
that sort of thing.


Yabbut what would be so wrong with a simple folded cardboard box like
regular old light bulbs have been sold in for ages? We've been
recycling paper for a lot longer than we've been doing plastic, and not
all areas have plastic recycling.

nate


I think it has a lot to do with the $50 price.

I know a lot of contributors here don't like them but, cfls work fine
for me. Anyplace I need instant-on I've still got all my old
incandescents or T8s.

It's funny to watch you guys get all huffy over light bulbs.

On 4/26/2013 7:05 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 04/26/2013 07:00 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
I've been interested in finding a more acceptable solution to indoor
lighting than the usual spiral CFLs for a while now, yesterday I was
researching LED light bulbs as I was actually repairing an outdoor post
light (and am trying a 4W LED in it, although I don't think it's bright
enough for the application) and found this:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips-1...0#BVRRWidgetID



which is available at select (read: almost none) Home Depots but the
secret is that if you can find them, they're apparently subsidized by
local utilities or something to about $15 apiece, not the $50 listed on
the web site. A store about 50 miles away from me had a stock of them
however and I have a friend who works in that area so I imposed on him
to get me a couple.

I have a feeling I need more of these. They have a CRI of 92 (normal
CFLs and most LEDs are in the 70-80 range) Surprisingly, HD does not
even mention CRI at all in their description of this product although to
me it's a bigger deal than the efficiency. However if you research the
L-prize you'll find that a CRI of 90 was one of the conditions. They
also turn on instantly, and are actually bright. Well, almost instantly
- there's a very brief but noticable delay between flipping the switch
and getting light. It's really the one way you can tell that you're not
turning on an incandescent bulb but something more complicated and
electronic. I remember when we didn't try to skimp on light bulb size
and actually lit up a room, but since switching to CFLs it's hard to get
enough light in some spaces. Two of these 10W bulbs are definitely
brighter than the single 40W CFL with which I was trying to light up a
difficult room (dark paneling, main lighting from a torchiere with a
dark colored shade that reflects most of the light up, would have been
acceptable with a 200+ watt 3-way incandescent which is what it was
obviously designed for, but nothing else produced acceptable light) and
there's none of that annoying brightness ramp-up that you get from CFLs.

One thing that I have not tested with these bulbs is dimming ability.
Supposedly it works, but some dimmers will buzz and hum. But if you
don't have dimmers, don't have fully enclosed light fixtures, and don't
mind (or can't see in your application) the odd shape/color of the bulb
when unlit, there's really nothing at all I can find fault with.

Best part - this bulb is actually assembled in the USA, and apparently
the LEDs used are made in the USA as well!

This may be old news for some as apparently they've been available @ HD
at the discounted price for about a month now, but I figured this was
worth posting because a) I don't go into HD that often and b) even if I
did, none of the stores local to me carry this bulb so if I hadn't gone
looking for it online I would not have known that it was actually
available (and if someone hadn't mentioned to check the price, the $50
price listed on HD's web site would have put me off...)

Hope this helps someone...

nate


Forgot to add... the really amusing thing about this bulb is the
packaging. Philips hits a home run with this product which will likely
primarily appeal to eco-weenies and people who actually geek out over
things like light bulbs... and yet the packaging is that awful heat
sealed clamshell plastic, and about 3x as large as it needs to be. I
can't imagine any packaging more annoying, or, here's the ironic bit,
less eco-friendly...

nate


I guess if you're paying $50 for a light bulb you want first class
packaging.

Anybody that does the math will know that CFL's are most cost efficient.

Frank wrote:

On 4/26/2013 7:05 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 04/26/2013 07:00 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
I've been interested in finding a more acceptable solution to indoor
lighting than the usual spiral CFLs for a while now, yesterday I was
researching LED light bulbs as I was actually repairing an outdoor post
light (and am trying a 4W LED in it, although I don't think it's bright
enough for the application) and found this:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips-1...0#BVRRWidgetID



which is available at select (read: almost none) Home Depots but the
secret is that if you can find them, they're apparently subsidized by
local utilities or something to about $15 apiece, not the $50 listed on
the web site. A store about 50 miles away from me had a stock of them
however and I have a friend who works in that area so I imposed on him
to get me a couple.

I have a feeling I need more of these. They have a CRI of 92 (normal
CFLs and most LEDs are in the 70-80 range) Surprisingly, HD does not
even mention CRI at all in their description of this product although to
me it's a bigger deal than the efficiency. However if you research the
L-prize you'll find that a CRI of 90 was one of the conditions. They
also turn on instantly, and are actually bright. Well, almost instantly
- there's a very brief but noticable delay between flipping the switch
and getting light. It's really the one way you can tell that you're not
turning on an incandescent bulb but something more complicated and
electronic. I remember when we didn't try to skimp on light bulb size
and actually lit up a room, but since switching to CFLs it's hard to get
enough light in some spaces. Two of these 10W bulbs are definitely
brighter than the single 40W CFL with which I was trying to light up a
difficult room (dark paneling, main lighting from a torchiere with a
dark colored shade that reflects most of the light up, would have been
acceptable with a 200+ watt 3-way incandescent which is what it was
obviously designed for, but nothing else produced acceptable light) and
there's none of that annoying brightness ramp-up that you get from CFLs.

One thing that I have not tested with these bulbs is dimming ability.
Supposedly it works, but some dimmers will buzz and hum. But if you
don't have dimmers, don't have fully enclosed light fixtures, and don't
mind (or can't see in your application) the odd shape/color of the bulb
when unlit, there's really nothing at all I can find fault with.

Best part - this bulb is actually assembled in the USA, and apparently
the LEDs used are made in the USA as well!

This may be old news for some as apparently they've been available @ HD
at the discounted price for about a month now, but I figured this was
worth posting because a) I don't go into HD that often and b) even if I
did, none of the stores local to me carry this bulb so if I hadn't gone
looking for it online I would not have known that it was actually
available (and if someone hadn't mentioned to check the price, the $50
price listed on HD's web site would have put me off...)

Hope this helps someone...

nate


Forgot to add... the really amusing thing about this bulb is the
packaging. Philips hits a home run with this product which will likely
primarily appeal to eco-weenies and people who actually geek out over
things like light bulbs... and yet the packaging is that awful heat
sealed clamshell plastic, and about 3x as large as it needs to be. I
can't imagine any packaging more annoying, or, here's the ironic bit,
less eco-friendly...

nate


I guess if you're paying $50 for a light bulb you want first class
packaging.

Anybody that does the math will know that CFL's are most cost efficient.

You flubbed your math then.

Assumptions:

40W equivalent lamps (what I have data handy for)
Power $0.10/kWh
Incandescent lamp $1
CFL lamp $3
LED lamp $10 (the $50 Phillips may be the latest, greatest, but most
LEDs are a lot less expensive)


Incandescent: $1 lamp, 750hr life, 40W power consumption = $0.0053
per hour
($1/750)+((40/1000)*$0.10)

CFL: $3 lamp, 8,000hr life, 14W power consumption = $0.0018
per hour
($3/8000)+((14/1000)*$0.10)

LED: $10 lamp, 30,000hr life, 7.5W power consumption = $0.0011
per hour
($10/30000)+((7.5/1000)*$0.10)

So LED lamps are about 20% cheaper than CFL

On 4/26/2013 12:24 PM, Pete C. wrote:

Frank wrote:

On 4/26/2013 7:05 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 04/26/2013 07:00 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
I've been interested in finding a more acceptable solution to indoor
lighting than the usual spiral CFLs for a while now, yesterday I was
researching LED light bulbs as I was actually repairing an outdoor post
light (and am trying a 4W LED in it, although I don't think it's bright
enough for the application) and found this:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips-1...0#BVRRWidgetID



which is available at select (read: almost none) Home Depots but the
secret is that if you can find them, they're apparently subsidized by
local utilities or something to about $15 apiece, not the $50 listed on
the web site. A store about 50 miles away from me had a stock of them
however and I have a friend who works in that area so I imposed on him
to get me a couple.

I have a feeling I need more of these. They have a CRI of 92 (normal
CFLs and most LEDs are in the 70-80 range) Surprisingly, HD does not
even mention CRI at all in their description of this product although to
me it's a bigger deal than the efficiency. However if you research the
L-prize you'll find that a CRI of 90 was one of the conditions. They
also turn on instantly, and are actually bright. Well, almost instantly
- there's a very brief but noticable delay between flipping the switch
and getting light. It's really the one way you can tell that you're not
turning on an incandescent bulb but something more complicated and
electronic. I remember when we didn't try to skimp on light bulb size
and actually lit up a room, but since switching to CFLs it's hard to get
enough light in some spaces. Two of these 10W bulbs are definitely
brighter than the single 40W CFL with which I was trying to light up a
difficult room (dark paneling, main lighting from a torchiere with a
dark colored shade that reflects most of the light up, would have been
acceptable with a 200+ watt 3-way incandescent which is what it was
obviously designed for, but nothing else produced acceptable light) and
there's none of that annoying brightness ramp-up that you get from CFLs.

One thing that I have not tested with these bulbs is dimming ability.
Supposedly it works, but some dimmers will buzz and hum. But if you
don't have dimmers, don't have fully enclosed light fixtures, and don't
mind (or can't see in your application) the odd shape/color of the bulb
when unlit, there's really nothing at all I can find fault with.

Best part - this bulb is actually assembled in the USA, and apparently
the LEDs used are made in the USA as well!

This may be old news for some as apparently they've been available @ HD
at the discounted price for about a month now, but I figured this was
worth posting because a) I don't go into HD that often and b) even if I
did, none of the stores local to me carry this bulb so if I hadn't gone
looking for it online I would not have known that it was actually
available (and if someone hadn't mentioned to check the price, the $50
price listed on HD's web site would have put me off...)

Hope this helps someone...

nate


Forgot to add... the really amusing thing about this bulb is the
packaging. Philips hits a home run with this product which will likely
primarily appeal to eco-weenies and people who actually geek out over
things like light bulbs... and yet the packaging is that awful heat
sealed clamshell plastic, and about 3x as large as it needs to be. I
can't imagine any packaging more annoying, or, here's the ironic bit,
less eco-friendly...

nate


I guess if you're paying $50 for a light bulb you want first class
packaging.

Anybody that does the math will know that CFL's are most cost efficient.

You flubbed your math then.

Assumptions:

40W equivalent lamps (what I have data handy for)
Power $0.10/kWh
Incandescent lamp $1
CFL lamp $3
LED lamp $10 (the $50 Phillips may be the latest, greatest, but most
LEDs are a lot less expensive)


Incandescent: $1 lamp, 750hr life, 40W power consumption = $0.0053
per hour
($1/750)+((40/1000)*$0.10)

CFL: $3 lamp, 8,000hr life, 14W power consumption = $0.0018
per hour
($3/8000)+((14/1000)*$0.10)

LED: $10 lamp, 30,000hr life, 7.5W power consumption = $0.0011
per hour
($10/30000)+((7.5/1000)*$0.10)

So LED lamps are about 20% cheaper than CFL


I did not do the math but the Phillips lamp, and that's what I
addressed, is 10 watts and costs $50. I'm not taking time to do math
again. You can do it but off hand I'll bet its more expensive.
I'd buy the 60 watt equivalent $10 LED bulb if I knew where to get it.

Slight change in subject but I think home lighting requirements only
takes up about 14% of your total electric bill so improved lights are
just chasing diminishing return on investment.

On 04/26/2013 02:00 PM, Frank wrote:
On 4/26/2013 12:24 PM, Pete C. wrote:

Frank wrote:

On 4/26/2013 7:05 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 04/26/2013 07:00 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
I've been interested in finding a more acceptable solution to indoor
lighting than the usual spiral CFLs for a while now, yesterday I was
researching LED light bulbs as I was actually repairing an outdoor
post
light (and am trying a 4W LED in it, although I don't think it's
bright
enough for the application) and found this:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips-1...0#BVRRWidgetID




which is available at select (read: almost none) Home Depots but the
secret is that if you can find them, they're apparently subsidized by
local utilities or something to about $15 apiece, not the $50
listed on
the web site. A store about 50 miles away from me had a stock of them
however and I have a friend who works in that area so I imposed on him
to get me a couple.

I have a feeling I need more of these. They have a CRI of 92 (normal
CFLs and most LEDs are in the 70-80 range) Surprisingly, HD does not
even mention CRI at all in their description of this product
although to
me it's a bigger deal than the efficiency. However if you research
the
L-prize you'll find that a CRI of 90 was one of the conditions. They
also turn on instantly, and are actually bright. Well, almost
instantly
- there's a very brief but noticable delay between flipping the switch
and getting light. It's really the one way you can tell that
you're not
turning on an incandescent bulb but something more complicated and
electronic. I remember when we didn't try to skimp on light bulb size
and actually lit up a room, but since switching to CFLs it's hard
to get
enough light in some spaces. Two of these 10W bulbs are definitely
brighter than the single 40W CFL with which I was trying to light up a
difficult room (dark paneling, main lighting from a torchiere with a
dark colored shade that reflects most of the light up, would have been
acceptable with a 200+ watt 3-way incandescent which is what it was
obviously designed for, but nothing else produced acceptable light)
and
there's none of that annoying brightness ramp-up that you get from
CFLs.

One thing that I have not tested with these bulbs is dimming ability.
Supposedly it works, but some dimmers will buzz and hum. But if you
don't have dimmers, don't have fully enclosed light fixtures, and
don't
mind (or can't see in your application) the odd shape/color of the
bulb
when unlit, there's really nothing at all I can find fault with.

Best part - this bulb is actually assembled in the USA, and apparently
the LEDs used are made in the USA as well!

This may be old news for some as apparently they've been available
@ HD
at the discounted price for about a month now, but I figured this was
worth posting because a) I don't go into HD that often and b) even
if I
did, none of the stores local to me carry this bulb so if I hadn't
gone
looking for it online I would not have known that it was actually
available (and if someone hadn't mentioned to check the price, the $50
price listed on HD's web site would have put me off...)

Hope this helps someone...

nate


Forgot to add... the really amusing thing about this bulb is the
packaging. Philips hits a home run with this product which will likely
primarily appeal to eco-weenies and people who actually geek out over
things like light bulbs... and yet the packaging is that awful heat
sealed clamshell plastic, and about 3x as large as it needs to be. I
can't imagine any packaging more annoying, or, here's the ironic bit,
less eco-friendly...

nate


I guess if you're paying $50 for a light bulb you want first class
packaging.

Anybody that does the math will know that CFL's are most cost efficient.

You flubbed your math then.

Assumptions:

40W equivalent lamps (what I have data handy for)
Power $0.10/kWh
Incandescent lamp $1
CFL lamp $3
LED lamp $10 (the $50 Phillips may be the latest, greatest, but most
LEDs are a lot less expensive)


Incandescent: $1 lamp, 750hr life, 40W power consumption = $0.0053
per hour
($1/750)+((40/1000)*$0.10)

CFL: $3 lamp, 8,000hr life, 14W power consumption = $0.0018
per hour
($3/8000)+((14/1000)*$0.10)

LED: $10 lamp, 30,000hr life, 7.5W power consumption = $0.0011
per hour
($10/30000)+((7.5/1000)*$0.10)

So LED lamps are about 20% cheaper than CFL


I did not do the math but the Phillips lamp, and that's what I
addressed, is 10 watts and costs $50. I'm not taking time to do math
again. You can do it but off hand I'll bet its more expensive.
I'd buy the 60 watt equivalent $10 LED bulb if I knew where to get it.

The Cree 9.5W/800 lumen (advertised as "60W equivalent" although this
seems to be a little reminiscent of CFL advertising where you give up
50-100 lumens relative to a traditional incandescent) ones apparently
are readily available in the HD stores that aren't selling the Philips
L-Prize bulbs. The Cree ones are $13 in my area and I apparently
wouldn't have any trouble getting them. I specifically sought out the
Philips bulbs because of the higher CRI and the "made in the USA"
factor, and the $2 difference (everywhere that I've actually been able
to find them for sale, they're $15 not $50; online at Amazon now, if
you're not close to a store selling them, they're about $30 BTW) isn't
going to kill me. The higher light output and greater efficiency is
nice too.

Not that Cree makes a bad product - as I said in a previous post, there
are applications where it might make sense to use them, e.g. where the
bulb is exposed and you are trying to maintain the appearance of a
traditional frosted bulb. I've got several flashlights using Cree LEDs
and they're great; I think I've replaced one pair of batteries in one of
three flashlights after several years of ownership and use (and all are
still working fine.) If the Philips didn't exist I'd probably be trying
a few of the Cree bulbs now.

As an aside, Cree is apparently where it's at for can lights now. They
have several models of downlights with a CRI of 90 or greater but for
whatever reason their "light bulbs" have a lower CRI. So Philips for
bulbs, but Cree for can lights.

Slight change in subject but I think home lighting requirements only
takes up about 14% of your total electric bill so improved lights are
just chasing diminishing return on investment.

I didn't even bother to fact check that statement but keep in mind that
going from incandescent to CFL or LED will reduce the heat load on your
A/C as well, if you live in an area that requires primarily cooling
rather than heating (and I do)

Also, is that 14% assuming incandescents or CFLs? If the latter, then
using incandescents would change lighting to a significant fraction of
the total power used.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Fri, 26 Apr 2013 11:24:26 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Frank wrote:

On 4/26/2013 7:05 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 04/26/2013 07:00 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
I've been interested in finding a more acceptable solution to indoor
lighting than the usual spiral CFLs for a while now, yesterday I was
researching LED light bulbs as I was actually repairing an outdoor post
light (and am trying a 4W LED in it, although I don't think it's bright
enough for the application) and found this:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips-1...0#BVRRWidgetID



which is available at select (read: almost none) Home Depots but the
secret is that if you can find them, they're apparently subsidized by
local utilities or something to about $15 apiece, not the $50 listed on
the web site. A store about 50 miles away from me had a stock of them
however and I have a friend who works in that area so I imposed on him
to get me a couple.

I have a feeling I need more of these. They have a CRI of 92 (normal
CFLs and most LEDs are in the 70-80 range) Surprisingly, HD does not
even mention CRI at all in their description of this product although to
me it's a bigger deal than the efficiency. However if you research the
L-prize you'll find that a CRI of 90 was one of the conditions. They
also turn on instantly, and are actually bright. Well, almost instantly
- there's a very brief but noticable delay between flipping the switch
and getting light. It's really the one way you can tell that you're not
turning on an incandescent bulb but something more complicated and
electronic. I remember when we didn't try to skimp on light bulb size
and actually lit up a room, but since switching to CFLs it's hard to get
enough light in some spaces. Two of these 10W bulbs are definitely
brighter than the single 40W CFL with which I was trying to light up a
difficult room (dark paneling, main lighting from a torchiere with a
dark colored shade that reflects most of the light up, would have been
acceptable with a 200+ watt 3-way incandescent which is what it was
obviously designed for, but nothing else produced acceptable light) and
there's none of that annoying brightness ramp-up that you get from CFLs.

One thing that I have not tested with these bulbs is dimming ability.
Supposedly it works, but some dimmers will buzz and hum. But if you
don't have dimmers, don't have fully enclosed light fixtures, and don't
mind (or can't see in your application) the odd shape/color of the bulb
when unlit, there's really nothing at all I can find fault with.

Best part - this bulb is actually assembled in the USA, and apparently
the LEDs used are made in the USA as well!

This may be old news for some as apparently they've been available @ HD
at the discounted price for about a month now, but I figured this was
worth posting because a) I don't go into HD that often and b) even if I
did, none of the stores local to me carry this bulb so if I hadn't gone
looking for it online I would not have known that it was actually
available (and if someone hadn't mentioned to check the price, the $50
price listed on HD's web site would have put me off...)

Hope this helps someone...

nate


Forgot to add... the really amusing thing about this bulb is the
packaging. Philips hits a home run with this product which will likely
primarily appeal to eco-weenies and people who actually geek out over
things like light bulbs... and yet the packaging is that awful heat
sealed clamshell plastic, and about 3x as large as it needs to be. I
can't imagine any packaging more annoying, or, here's the ironic bit,
less eco-friendly...

nate


I guess if you're paying $50 for a light bulb you want first class
packaging.

Anybody that does the math will know that CFL's are most cost efficient.

You flubbed your math then.

Assumptions:

40W equivalent lamps (what I have data handy for)
Power $0.10/kWh
Incandescent lamp $1
CFL lamp $3
LED lamp $10 (the $50 Phillips may be the latest, greatest, but most
LEDs are a lot less expensive)


Incandescent: $1 lamp, 750hr life, 40W power consumption = $0.0053
per hour
($1/750)+((40/1000)*$0.10)

CFL: $3 lamp, 8,000hr life, 14W power consumption = $0.0018
per hour
($3/8000)+((14/1000)*$0.10)

LED: $10 lamp, 30,000hr life, 7.5W power consumption = $0.0011
per hour
($10/30000)+((7.5/1000)*$0.10)

So LED lamps are about 20% cheaper than CFL

IFF you believe the absurd claims of 30K Hrs.

wrote:

IFF you believe the absurd claims of 30K Hrs.

Every other LED I've use over the last 40 years or so has lasted a whole
lot longer than 30,000 hours. 30k is a conservative estimate for
warranty purposes, most will last a lot longer. When was the last time
you had an LED burn out on some device where it is on 24x365?

On Apr 26, 11:24 am, "Pete C." wrote:


So LED lamps are about 20% cheaper than CFL

For both LED and CFL, the main failue mechanism is the electronics
that are used to change the 120V to the higher, or lower, voltage
that these lamps actually use....
The light source themselves are very long lived. The electronics
are
not. A power spike that an incandescent can ignore can easily wipe
out the high voltage inverter in the CFL base, or the current
limiting
capacitor and reverse diode in the LED base.

You have to look at the entire assembly, and not just what the
manufactures publishes as "lamp life"..... You will NEVER get the
claimed numbers if you live in a place where there are power outages,
thunderstorms, or higher temperatures....

"Robert" wrote in message
...
On Apr 26, 11:24 am, "Pete C." wrote:


So LED lamps are about 20% cheaper than CFL

For both LED and CFL, the main failue mechanism is the electronics
that are used to change the 120V to the higher, or lower, voltage
that these lamps actually use....
The light source themselves are very long lived. The electronics
are
not. A power spike that an incandescent can ignore can easily wipe
out the high voltage inverter in the CFL base, or the current
limiting
capacitor and reverse diode in the LED base.

You have to look at the entire assembly, and not just what the
manufactures publishes as "lamp life"..... You will NEVER get the
claimed numbers if you live in a place where there are power outages,
thunderstorms, or higher temperatures....

The above is a good review of the situation. I can add that the rated life
for LED bulbs is still a made-up number based upon what the marketing
departments of the manufacturers feel they ought to say and the length of
warranty that the company wants to (or can afford to) honor. Rated life is
therefore set motr by the competitive environment, not by actual tested
performance.

But when just incandescent lamps were available, the situation was not much
different. Manufacturers have always been able to make incandescent bulbs
last for 1000 - 5000 hours and they design their products to trade off
performance against what they think they can sell. What they can't control
are the user's socket conditions which might subject the lamp to high
voltage, voltages surges or physical shock and vibration which can kill a
filament bulb in short order. As a lamp engineer told me once, "few
incandescent bulbs die a normal death where the filament evaporates until it
breaks. Usually, some jolt -- physical or electrical -- takes them out
early".

Tomsic

On Fri, 26 Apr 2013 07:05:06 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:


Forgot to add... the really amusing thing about this bulb is the
packaging. Philips hits a home run with this product which will likely
primarily appeal to eco-weenies and people who actually geek out over
things like light bulbs... and yet the packaging is that awful heat
sealed clamshell plastic, and about 3x as large as it needs to be. I

Designed to make shop-lifting harder.

can't imagine any packaging more annoying, or, here's the ironic bit,
less eco-friendly...

nate

On 04/26/2013 04:05 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:

Forgot to add... the really amusing thing about this bulb is the
packaging. Philips hits a home run with this product which will likely
primarily appeal to eco-weenies and people who actually geek out over
things like light bulbs... and yet the packaging is that awful heat
sealed clamshell plastic, and about 3x as large as it needs to be. I
can't imagine any packaging more annoying, or, here's the ironic bit,
less eco-friendly...

I don't mind opening them much anymore, as I immediately reach for the
razor knife to open them.

I do feel bad about returning an item, because if I return something I
like it to be in the same condition as when I purchased it, something
impossible to do with the HF-sealed clamshell packaging.

Jon

Thanks Nate...all LED's tend to be like buying "a pig in a poke"!

On Apr 26, 7:00*am, Nate Nagel wrote:
I've been interested in finding a more acceptable solution to indoor
lighting than the usual spiral CFLs for a while now, yesterday I was
researching LED light bulbs as I was actually repairing an outdoor post
light (and am trying a 4W LED in it, although I don't think it's bright
enough for the application) and found this:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips-1...Soft-White-270...

which is available at select (read: almost none) Home Depots but the
secret is that if you can find them, they're apparently subsidized by
local utilities or something to about $15 apiece, not the $50 listed on
the web site. *A store about 50 miles away from me had a stock of them
however and I have a friend who works in that area so I imposed on him
to get me a couple.

I have a feeling I need more of these. *They have a CRI of 92 (normal
CFLs and most LEDs are in the 70-80 range) *Surprisingly, HD does not
even mention CRI at all in their description of this product although to
me it's a bigger deal than the efficiency. *However if you research the
L-prize you'll find that a CRI of 90 was one of the conditions. *They
also turn on instantly, and are actually bright. *Well, almost instantly
- there's a very brief but noticable delay between flipping the switch
and getting light. *It's really the one way you can tell that you're not
turning on an incandescent bulb but something more complicated and
electronic. *I remember when we didn't try to skimp on light bulb size
and actually lit up a room, but since switching to CFLs it's hard to get
enough light in some spaces. *Two of these 10W bulbs are definitely
brighter than the single 40W CFL with which I was trying to light up a
difficult room (dark paneling, main lighting from a torchiere with a
dark colored shade that reflects most of the light up, would have been
acceptable with a 200+ watt 3-way incandescent which is what it was
obviously designed for, but nothing else produced acceptable light) and
there's none of that annoying brightness ramp-up that you get from CFLs.

One thing that I have not tested with these bulbs is dimming ability.
Supposedly it works, but some dimmers will buzz and hum. *But if you
don't have dimmers, don't have fully enclosed light fixtures, and don't
mind (or can't see in your application) the odd shape/color of the bulb
when unlit, there's really nothing at all I can find fault with.

Best part - this bulb is actually assembled in the USA, and apparently
the LEDs used are made in the USA as well!

This may be old news for some as apparently they've been available @ HD
at the discounted price for about a month now, but I figured this was
worth posting because a) I don't go into HD that often and b) even if I
did, none of the stores local to me carry this bulb so if I hadn't gone
looking for it online I would not have known that it was actually
available (and if someone hadn't mentioned to check the price, the $50
price listed on HD's web site would have put me off...)

What $50 price? The link you provided to the HD website had
them for $15.




Hope this helps someone...

nate

--

Yes, good to know. At some point I guess I'll try buying one.
My experience with CFL's though makes me hesitant. Even now
the results from one brand to another or even within the same
brand a year later are not consistent. These
are even more expensive, so you really have to believe that

A: They put out nice light

B: They will last long enough to recover your money.

Has anyone seen any independent testing that supports b?

On 04/26/2013 09:06 AM, wrote:
On Apr 26, 7:00 am, Nate Nagel wrote:
I've been interested in finding a more acceptable solution to
indoor lighting than the usual spiral CFLs for a while now,
yesterday I was researching LED light bulbs as I was actually
repairing an outdoor post light (and am trying a 4W LED in it,
although I don't think it's bright enough for the application) and
found this:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips-1...Soft-White-270...


which is available at select (read: almost none) Home Depots but the
secret is that if you can find them, they're apparently subsidized
by local utilities or something to about $15 apiece, not the $50
listed on the web site. A store about 50 miles away from me had a
stock of them however and I have a friend who works in that area so
I imposed on him to get me a couple.

I have a feeling I need more of these. They have a CRI of 92
(normal CFLs and most LEDs are in the 70-80 range) Surprisingly,
HD does not even mention CRI at all in their description of this
product although to me it's a bigger deal than the efficiency.
However if you research the L-prize you'll find that a CRI of 90
was one of the conditions. They also turn on instantly, and are
actually bright. Well, almost instantly - there's a very brief but
noticable delay between flipping the switch and getting light.
It's really the one way you can tell that you're not turning on an
incandescent bulb but something more complicated and electronic. I
remember when we didn't try to skimp on light bulb size and
actually lit up a room, but since switching to CFLs it's hard to
get enough light in some spaces. Two of these 10W bulbs are
definitely brighter than the single 40W CFL with which I was trying
to light up a difficult room (dark paneling, main lighting from a
torchiere with a dark colored shade that reflects most of the light
up, would have been acceptable with a 200+ watt 3-way incandescent
which is what it was obviously designed for, but nothing else
produced acceptable light) and there's none of that annoying
brightness ramp-up that you get from CFLs.

One thing that I have not tested with these bulbs is dimming
ability. Supposedly it works, but some dimmers will buzz and hum.
But if you don't have dimmers, don't have fully enclosed light
fixtures, and don't mind (or can't see in your application) the odd
shape/color of the bulb when unlit, there's really nothing at all I
can find fault with.

Best part - this bulb is actually assembled in the USA, and
apparently the LEDs used are made in the USA as well!

This may be old news for some as apparently they've been available
@ HD at the discounted price for about a month now, but I figured
this was worth posting because a) I don't go into HD that often and
b) even if I did, none of the stores local to me carry this bulb so
if I hadn't gone looking for it online I would not have known that
it was actually available (and if someone hadn't mentioned to check
the price, the $50 price listed on HD's web site would have put me
off...)

What $50 price? The link you provided to the HD website had them for
$15.

I just went back and clicked on my own link; the "online price" (except
you can't even buy it online, it's a "store exclusive" product) is
$49.97 each for me. Maybe HD is adjusting the pricing based on
location? Perhaps in your location they are actually readily available
in stores at the lower price? I have no idea...

The Wikipedia article on high-CRI LEDs is actually where I discovered
that HD was selling them, see the footnote at the bottom of the A19 section.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_CRI_LED_Lighting


Hope this helps someone...

nate

--

Yes, good to know. At some point I guess I'll try buying one. My
experience with CFL's though makes me hesitant. Even now the results
from one brand to another or even within the same brand a year later
are not consistent. These are even more expensive, so you really
have to believe that

A: They put out nice light

In my opinion they do... of course today is only day two of use, but I
am consistently noticing the difference when I go into the room where
they're installed; it was annoying as there is no ceiling fixture in
that room and it's naturally dark so the lighting in that room comes
from a floor lamp on a wall switch as I mentioned above. In that
particular room, the only really good solution previously would have
been a 200W plus incandescent and my inner granola munching hippie was
offended by that solution. I used a socket extension and a one-to-two
socket Y-adapter to stuff two of my Philips LED bulbs in that light, and
for a total of 20W worth of LEDs the total light is perhaps slightly
less than I would prefer if energy consumption was not a consideration
at all but it is definitely superior in every way to the 40W CFL that I
was previously using, most notably the ramp up time (it seems like the
brighter the CFL, or if it is enclosed in a globe for outdoor use or
decorative bath fixtures, the more likely the CFL is to have a
noticeable and annoying ramp up.) Combined with my third Philips LED
bulb on a table lamp, the room is acceptably lit and it feels like a
luxury to have a similar quality of light as I remember having as a kid
before we worried about stuff like this.

I thought about using the Y-adapter idea with two of the more common 13W
CFLs because my guess was even that would have been a better solution
than the 40W CFL but never actually got around to doing it.

Remember once upon a time when it was recommended to use 150W bulbs or
higher in a table lamp next to the chair you'd sit in to spend some
quality time with a book to reduce eye strain? I do...

B: They will last long enough to recover your money.

Has anyone seen any independent testing that supports b?

It seems like they will...

http://www.lightingprize.org/

http://www.lightingprize.org/60watttest.stm

In June 2010, the next stage of evaluation began: long-term lumen
maintenance testing. The 200 samples were sent to Pacific Northwest
National Laboratory to be tested in a new high-temperature testing
apparatus specifically designed for the L Prize competition and built
with assistance from Orb Optronix. The test bed was maintained at
45°C to simulate actual operating conditions and the lamps were
operated continuously. A movable integrating sphere (light
measurement device) took spectral measurements on each lamp every 100
hours for the first 3,000 hours of operation, and every 168 hours
(weekly) thereafter. Data for the first 7,000 hours of operation were
used to predict lumen maintenance of the lamps at 25,000 hours. With
95 percent confidence, lumen maintenance is predicted to be 97.1
percent* at 25,000 hours, which significantly exceeds the 70 percent
L Prize requirement.

So apparently all samples were proven to last at least 7K hours without
failure; it's apparently too soon to say whether they'll actually last
25K hours plus or not but it's not looking bad.

I know it sounds like I'm really pushing these bulbs but I'm not
affiliated with Philips or DoE in any way, I'm just a consumer who's
discovered a product that I really like and am kind of excited about. I
wouldn't pay $50 for one of these bulbs, mostly because I don't have the
money to be shelling out $50 for the equivalent of something that I can
buy for $2 give or take (in the form of a traditional incandescent) but
at $15 you can make the argument that it will save money on air
conditioning and electrical power, plus then you don't have to feel the
guilt of running big incandescents - not that I have in years; at my
last house the only incandescents were in seldom used hallways and in
the living room and kitchen where there were dimmer switches and I could
not find any acceptable more efficient solution (and yes, I have to
admit, I did feel somewhat guilty about those...)

I'm also a little surprised that this is a Philips product. My money
would have been on Cree a few years ago, but it appears that the
commonly available Cree incandescent light bulb replacements don't have
either the efficiency or CRI of the Philips bulb. I haven't seen any of
them in operation so I can't comment how they stack up subjectively, but
they're about $13 retail, dimmer, and have lower CRI (similar to the
common Philips LED "bulbs" that are actually easy to obtain) and a quick
google did not yield data on where they're made, so I'm just ASSuming
China. So unless someone who's spent more time geeking out on this
subject than I has data to the contrary, my (non-professional) opinion
is that it's worth a little extra effort to search out the Philips
L-prize bulb in particular. However, I wouldn't be surprised if the
Cree and older Philips LEDs were still subjectively more pleasing than a
typical CFL. I have a Utilitech 9W LED bulb that I bought last year
when Lowe's had them on sale for $9 or so just out of curiosity, and I
do find it preferable to CFLs and will continue to use it - but I'm sure
that the CRI is probably around 80 and its color temp is a little higher
than many people would probably like.

While I'm rambling on on the subject, I'm tempted to try to hack
together an adapter that will allow two bulbs to act like a 3-way
incandescent, because the very lamp that prompted that geekery is a
3-way socket and they seem to still be very common, especially for table
lamps which may be used for both ambient light and also reading. It
wouldn't actually work exactly like a 3-way as I'd be using two bulbs of
equivalent light output rather than one appx. twice as bright as the
other, but I hope that that changes in the future (or, if CRI is less
important to you, you could use some of the Cree bulbs or older design
Philips bulbs which are available in multiple lumen ratings.) Or maybe
in a few years we'll be able to get high quality, high output 3-way LED
bulbs? I can only hope so.

nate

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On Apr 26, 9:46*am, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 04/26/2013 09:06 AM, wrote:





On Apr 26, 7:00 am, Nate Nagel wrote:
I've been interested in finding a more acceptable solution to
indoor lighting than the usual spiral CFLs for a while now,
yesterday I was researching LED light bulbs as I was actually
repairing an outdoor post light (and am trying a 4W LED in it,
although I don't think it's bright enough for the application) and
found this:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips-1...Soft-White-270....

which is available at select (read: almost none) Home Depots but the
secret is that if you can find them, they're apparently subsidized
by local utilities or something to about $15 apiece, not the $50
listed on the web site. *A store about 50 miles away from me had a
stock of them however and I have a friend who works in that area so
I imposed on him to get me a couple.

I have a feeling I need more of these. *They have a CRI of 92
(normal CFLs and most LEDs are in the 70-80 range) *Surprisingly,
HD does not even mention CRI at all in their description of this
product although to me it's a bigger deal than the efficiency.
However if you research the L-prize you'll find that a CRI of 90
was one of the conditions. *They also turn on instantly, and are
actually bright. *Well, almost instantly - there's a very brief but
noticable delay between flipping the switch and getting light.
It's really the one way you can tell that you're not turning on an
incandescent bulb but something more complicated and electronic. *I
remember when we didn't try to skimp on light bulb size and
actually lit up a room, but since switching to CFLs it's hard to
get enough light in some spaces. *Two of these 10W bulbs are
definitely brighter than the single 40W CFL with which I was trying
to light up a difficult room (dark paneling, main lighting from a
torchiere with a dark colored shade that reflects most of the light
up, would have been acceptable with a 200+ watt 3-way incandescent
which is what it was obviously designed for, but nothing else
produced acceptable light) and there's none of that annoying
brightness ramp-up that you get from CFLs.

One thing that I have not tested with these bulbs is dimming
ability. Supposedly it works, but some dimmers will buzz and hum.
But if you don't have dimmers, don't have fully enclosed light
fixtures, and don't mind (or can't see in your application) the odd
shape/color of the bulb when unlit, there's really nothing at all I
can find fault with.

Best part - this bulb is actually assembled in the USA, and
apparently the LEDs used are made in the USA as well!

This may be old news for some as apparently they've been available
@ HD at the discounted price for about a month now, but I figured
this was worth posting because a) I don't go into HD that often and
b) even if I did, none of the stores local to me carry this bulb so
if I hadn't gone looking for it online I would not have known that
it was actually available (and if someone hadn't mentioned to check
the price, the $50 price listed on HD's web site would have put me
off...)

What $50 price? *The link you provided to the HD website had them for
$15.

I just went back and clicked on my own link; the "online price" (except
you can't even buy it online, it's a "store exclusive" product) is
$49.97 each for me. *Maybe HD is adjusting the pricing based on
location? *Perhaps in your location they are actually readily available
in stores at the lower price? *I have no idea...


That's interesting. It shows up as $14.95 here. Technically you can
also buy it online but you have to pick it up at the store. Try a NJ
zipocode, 07753,
and see what price you get.







--

Yes, good to know. *At some point I guess I'll try buying one. My
experience with CFL's though makes me hesitant. *Even now the results
from one brand to another or even within the same brand a year later
are not consistent. *These are even more expensive, so you really
have to believe that

A: They put out nice light

In my opinion they do... *of course today is only day two of use, but I
am consistently noticing the difference when I go into the room where
they're installed; it was annoying as there is no ceiling fixture in
that room and it's naturally dark so the lighting in that room comes
from a floor lamp on a wall switch as I mentioned above. *In that
particular room, the only really good solution previously would have
been a 200W plus incandescent and my inner granola munching hippie was
offended by that solution. *I used a socket extension and a one-to-two
socket Y-adapter to stuff two of my Philips LED bulbs in that light, and
for a total of 20W worth of LEDs the total light is perhaps slightly
less than I would prefer if energy consumption was not a consideration
at all but it is definitely superior in every way to the 40W CFL that I
was previously using, most notably the ramp up time (it seems like the
brighter the CFL, or if it is enclosed in a globe for outdoor use or
decorative bath fixtures, the more likely the CFL is to have a
noticeable and annoying ramp up.) *Combined with my third Philips LED
bulb on a table lamp, the room is acceptably lit and it feels like a
luxury to have a similar quality of light as I remember having as a kid
before we worried about stuff like this.

I thought about using the Y-adapter idea with two of the more common 13W
CFLs because my guess was even that would have been a better solution
than the 40W CFL but never actually got around to doing it.

Remember once upon a time when it was recommended to use 150W bulbs or
higher in a table lamp next to the chair you'd sit in to spend some
quality time with a book to reduce eye strain? *I do...

B: They will last long enough to recover your money.

Has anyone seen any independent testing that supports b?

It seems like they will...

http://www.lightingprize.org/

http://www.lightingprize.org/60watttest.stm

In June 2010, the next stage of evaluation began: long-term lumen
maintenance testing. The 200 samples were sent to Pacific Northwest
National Laboratory to be tested in a new high-temperature testing
apparatus specifically designed for the L Prize competition and built
with assistance from Orb Optronix. The test bed was maintained at
45°C to simulate actual operating conditions and the lamps were
operated continuously. A movable integrating sphere (light
measurement device) took spectral measurements on each lamp every 100
hours for the first 3,000 hours of operation, and every 168 hours
(weekly) thereafter. Data for the first 7,000 hours of operation were
used to predict lumen maintenance of the lamps at 25,000 hours. With
95 percent confidence, lumen maintenance is predicted to be 97.1
percent* at 25,000 hours, which significantly exceeds the 70 percent
L Prize requirement.

So apparently all samples were proven to last at least 7K hours without
failure; it's apparently too soon to say whether they'll actually last
25K hours plus or not but it's not looking bad.

I know it sounds like I'm really pushing these bulbs but I'm not
affiliated with Philips or DoE in any way, I'm just a consumer who's
discovered a product that I really like and am kind of excited about. *I
wouldn't pay $50 for one of these bulbs, mostly because I don't have the
money to be shelling out $50 for the equivalent of something that I can
buy for $2 give or take (in the form of a traditional incandescent) but
at $15 you can make the argument that it will save money on air
conditioning and electrical power, plus then you don't have to feel the
guilt of running big incandescents - not that I have in years; at my
last house the only incandescents were in seldom used hallways and in
the living room and kitchen where there were dimmer switches and I could
not find any acceptable more efficient solution (and yes, I have to
admit, I did feel somewhat guilty about those...)


Yes, I hear you. If there is something that puts out the nice
quality light that you can get from an incandescent, but uses
a tiny amount of electricity, less heat, and lasts long enough
for payback I'd be buying them......

There is another factor, which I learned from my experience
with CFL. Let's say these last 10 or 15 years. A year or two
from now, for whatever reason, one fails. With CFL
by then they were different, that particular one was no longer
available. So, you go to the store and you couldn't figure out,
which if any of them would match the light, warm up time, etc
of the ones you already had. Not a problem for a table lamp,
but if you have 8 of them in recessed lights, at $15, it's a problem.
It's gotten better as time goes on, but it's still like a science
experiment when you need to get one that matches.

I think the biggest selling point of these LED bulbs is that they're dimmable, and they're instant-on like incandescents. You don't have to wait a minute for the light output to rise.

But, the economics are an uphill battle for them.

Converting to CFL's was a no-brainer when they first came out because even at their $7 per bulb price tag, they'd save you 80% on your electricity, and that made them pay for themselves in a relatively short period of time.

Now, unless there's a government subsidy involved, paying even $15 extra to save an additional 3 watts is economically difficult. In a house with 20 light bulbs, $300 is a lot of money to invest in them, whereas 60 watts isn't a lot of savings to justify the investment. It's not even economically attractive to replace incandescents with LED's when the option of replacing them with CFL's is open to you.

I expect some people will buy these LED bulbs for dining rooms where they want the dimmability, but other than that the transition from CFL's to LED's is gonna be a slow one... until the price of LED bulbs drops to within a buck or two of CFLs. Unfortunately, the price won't drop until they start being mass produced, and that's not going to happen until they're economically competitive with CFL's and, except for a C-change in technology, that's not going to happen until the price drops.
Your classic Catch-22.

nestork wrote:

I think the biggest selling point of these LED bulbs is that they're
dimmable, and they're instant-on like incandescents. You don't have to
wait a minute for the light output to rise.

But, the economics are an uphill battle for them.

Converting to CFL's was a no-brainer when they first came out because
even at their $7 per bulb price tag, they'd save you 80% on your
electricity, and that made them pay for themselves in a relatively short
period of time.

Now, unless there's a government subsidy involved, paying even $15 extra
to save an additional 3 watts is economically difficult. In a house
with 20 light bulbs, $300 is a lot of money to invest in them, whereas
60 watts isn't a lot of savings to justify the investment. It's not
even economically attractive to replace incandescents with LED's when
the option of replacing them with CFL's is open to you.

I expect some people will buy these LED bulbs for dining rooms where
they want the dimmability, but other than that the transition from CFL's
to LED's is gonna be a slow one... until the price of LED bulbs drops to
within a buck or two of CFLs. Unfortunately, the price won't drop until
they start being mass produced, and that's not going to happen until
they're economically competitive with CFL's and, except for a C-change
in technology, that's not going to happen until the price drops.
Your classic Catch-22.

--
nestork

Remember that these LED lamps have 30,000+ hour life, so even compared
to your old $1 incandescents with 750 hour life the cost isn't worse,
it's just front loaded (30,000/750=40 i.e. 40 incandescents for the same
span as 1 LED). So if you are paying even $40/lamp you are at break even
just on lamp cost. The LG LEDs I'm using and quite happy with cost me
$9ea so I'm way ahead on base lamp cost, and much further ahead on power
savings as well as not having to replace them for a decade or two.

On 04/26/2013 10:45 AM, nestork wrote:
I think the biggest selling point of these LED bulbs is that they're
dimmable, and they're instant-on like incandescents. You don't have to
wait a minute for the light output to rise.

But, the economics are an uphill battle for them.

Converting to CFL's was a no-brainer when they first came out because
even at their $7 per bulb price tag, they'd save you 80% on your
electricity, and that made them pay for themselves in a relatively short
period of time.

Now, unless there's a government subsidy involved, paying even $15 extra
to save an additional 3 watts is economically difficult. In a house
with 20 light bulbs, $300 is a lot of money to invest in them, whereas
60 watts isn't a lot of savings to justify the investment. It's not
even economically attractive to replace incandescents with LED's when
the option of replacing them with CFL's is open to you.

I expect some people will buy these LED bulbs for dining rooms where
they want the dimmability, but other than that the transition from CFL's
to LED's is gonna be a slow one... until the price of LED bulbs drops to
within a buck or two of CFLs. Unfortunately, the price won't drop until
they start being mass produced, and that's not going to happen until
they're economically competitive with CFL's and, except for a C-change
in technology, that's not going to happen until the price drops.
Your classic Catch-22.

BUT if I needed to purchase some sort of light, any light, with the only
consideration being that it was going to go in an Edison base fixture, I
wouldn't even consider CFLs anymore. My choice today would be between
an incandescent and these new LEDs. The price difference between a CFL
and the LEDs (at $15, anyway) is little enough that I'm willing to pay
the extra for the luxury of not being annoyed at the CFL every time I
turn it on.

nate

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On Fri, 26 Apr 2013 16:45:40 +0200, nestork
wrote:




Now, unless there's a government subsidy involved, paying even $15 extra
to save an additional 3 watts is economically difficult. In a house
with 20 light bulbs, $300 is a lot of money to invest in them, whereas
60 watts isn't a lot of savings to justify the investment.

It is a lot of money, but it is not a lot of light. I'm not
interested until they have equivalent of 75W or 100W. We don't have a
60 in the house that I can think of.

On 04/26/2013 09:59 AM, wrote:
On Apr 26, 9:46 am, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 04/26/2013 09:06 AM, wrote:





On Apr 26, 7:00 am, Nate Nagel wrote:

snip

This may be old news for some as apparently they've been available
@ HD at the discounted price for about a month now, but I figured
this was worth posting because a) I don't go into HD that often and
b) even if I did, none of the stores local to me carry this bulb so
if I hadn't gone looking for it online I would not have known that
it was actually available (and if someone hadn't mentioned to check
the price, the $50 price listed on HD's web site would have put me
off...)

What $50 price? The link you provided to the HD website had them for
$15.

I just went back and clicked on my own link; the "online price" (except
you can't even buy it online, it's a "store exclusive" product) is
$49.97 each for me. Maybe HD is adjusting the pricing based on
location? Perhaps in your location they are actually readily available
in stores at the lower price? I have no idea...


That's interesting. It shows up as $14.95 here. Technically you can
also buy it online but you have to pick it up at the store. Try a NJ
zipocode, 07753,
and see what price you get.

That must be it, subsidies by location.

I'm in VA and the $49.97 price comes up. I set "my store" to the one
nearest my parents in PA and it is also $49.97. Then I tried Florham
Park, NJ (first NJ city that popped into my head) and picked the closest
store, suddenly price is $14.97. So I'm guessing that if I were
actually able to find a store in VA that had some in stock, they would
be priced at $49.97? Don't know, there's not any stores w/in 50 miles
of me that is also located in VA that has any in stock, so I can't try
to order for in-store pickup so I can see what the pricing is.

Lesson: if you live in VA or PA, get someone from MD or NJ to buy you
some of these and send them to you? (unless like me you live near a
state border)

nate

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On Fri, 26 Apr 2013 10:24:48 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:


I'm in VA and the $49.97 price comes up. I set "my store" to the one
nearest my parents in PA and it is also $49.97. Then I tried Florham
Park, NJ (first NJ city that popped into my head) and picked the closest
store, suddenly price is $14.97. So I'm guessing that if I were
actually able to find a store in VA that had some in stock, they would
be priced at $49.97? Don't know, there's not any stores w/in 50 miles
of me that is also located in VA that has any in stock, so I can't try
to order for in-store pickup so I can see what the pricing is.

Lesson: if you live in VA or PA, get someone from MD or NJ to buy you
some of these and send them to you? (unless like me you live near a
state border)

If you get caught transporting these light bulbs across state lines,
you'll be illuminated.

nate

On 04/26/2013 09:59 AM, wrote:


Yes, I hear you. If there is something that puts out the nice
quality light that you can get from an incandescent, but uses
a tiny amount of electricity, less heat, and lasts long enough
for payback I'd be buying them......

There is another factor, which I learned from my experience
with CFL. Let's say these last 10 or 15 years. A year or two
from now, for whatever reason, one fails. With CFL
by then they were different, that particular one was no longer
available. So, you go to the store and you couldn't figure out,
which if any of them would match the light, warm up time, etc
of the ones you already had. Not a problem for a table lamp,
but if you have 8 of them in recessed lights, at $15, it's a problem.
It's gotten better as time goes on, but it's still like a science
experiment when you need to get one that matches.

Not a concern for me, as I don't have any can lights. But you do raise
a valid point.

To me, that's another good argument for geeking out and trying to find
the best product that you can for the money (something that I've been
accused of doing before, and certainly am guilty of in many cases.)

nate

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Nate Nagel wrote:

What $50 price? The link you provided to the HD website had them for
$15.

I just went back and clicked on my own link; the "online price" (except
you can't even buy it online, it's a "store exclusive" product) is
$49.97 each for me. Maybe HD is adjusting the pricing based on
location? Perhaps in your location they are actually readily available
in stores at the lower price? I have no idea...

The electric utility price subsidies vary from state to state and
sometimes even in different areas within a state. Some places will have
no subsidies and some will have substantial ones. Find where the best
ones are and make a day trip to buy your lamps on some other utility's
dime

replying to Nate Nagel , DA wrote:
njnagel wrote:

I just went back and clicked on my own link; the "online price"
(except
you can't even buy it online, it's a "store exclusive" product) is
$49.97 each for me. Maybe HD is adjusting the pricing based on
location? Perhaps in your location they are actually readily available
in stores at the lower price? I have no idea...

Same thing happens he I select my PA local HD - $49.97, my NJ work
location (35 miles away) HD - $14.97

Sounds like a profitable business can be started to haul LED bulbs across
the Delaware river


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()::) OWL
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using HomeOwnersHub's Web, RSS and Social Media Interface
to home and garden related groups

the oversized clear plastic packaging you hurt yourself trying to open
is all about making it impossible to shoplift

I will try to find one for my pole light, its on a light sensor which
blows CFLs because its a realtive of a dimmer

Converting to CFLs made my electric bill drop noticeably

On 04/26/2013 12:57 PM, bob haller wrote:
the oversized clear plastic packaging you hurt yourself trying to open
is all about making it impossible to shoplift

I will try to find one for my pole light, its on a light sensor which
blows CFLs because its a realtive of a dimmer

Converting to CFLs made my electric bill drop noticeably


It might look kinda goofy in a pole light during the daytime...

as I said before this whole geekery started after buying a 4W "flame"
LED bulb at Lowes (Utilitech Pro brand) it works in the pole light but
doesn't really light up the driveway completely; I was looking to see if
there were any higher lumen ones available (not for an affordable price)
and that's when I came across the $15 good Philips bulbs @ HD.

Maybe one of the 40W equivalent Crees would be the ticket? They're not
particularly decorative but they are more like a traditional frosted
light bulb in appearance and you don't really care about CRI as much in
a pole light as you would indoors.

Unless you want to advertise to the world that you geek out on stuff
like LED bulbs, in which case by all means get the Philips (although I
think the older ones with the silver fluted base and orange remote
phosphor panels look even cooler G)

nate

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DA wrote:

replying to Nate Nagel , DA wrote:
njnagel wrote:

I just went back and clicked on my own link; the "online price"
(except
you can't even buy it online, it's a "store exclusive" product) is
$49.97 each for me. Maybe HD is adjusting the pricing based on
location? Perhaps in your location they are actually readily available
in stores at the lower price? I have no idea...

Same thing happens he I select my PA local HD - $49.97, my NJ work
location (35 miles away) HD - $14.97

Sounds like a profitable business can be started to haul LED bulbs across
the Delaware river

A business doing that would seem likely to get you in trouble, but a
drive over to pay cash for a batch for yourself would seem a good idea.

On Fri, 26 Apr 2013 11:51:54 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


DA wrote:

replying to Nate Nagel , DA wrote:
njnagel wrote:

I just went back and clicked on my own link; the "online price"
(except
you can't even buy it online, it's a "store exclusive" product) is
$49.97 each for me. Maybe HD is adjusting the pricing based on
location? Perhaps in your location they are actually readily available
in stores at the lower price? I have no idea...

Same thing happens he I select my PA local HD - $49.97, my NJ work
location (35 miles away) HD - $14.97

Sounds like a profitable business can be started to haul LED bulbs across
the Delaware river

A business doing that would seem likely to get you in trouble, but a
drive over to pay cash for a batch for yourself would seem a good idea.

What are they going to arrest you for, "bulb running? "Interstate
transport of lighting accessories?" Too funny!

"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...

--- SNIP ---


Has anyone seen any independent testing that supports b?

It seems like they will...

http://www.lightingprize.org/

http://www.lightingprize.org/60watttest.stm

In June 2010, the next stage of evaluation began: long-term lumen
maintenance testing. The 200 samples were sent to Pacific Northwest
National Laboratory to be tested in a new high-temperature testing
apparatus specifically designed for the L Prize competition and built
with assistance from Orb Optronix. The test bed was maintained at
45°C to simulate actual operating conditions and the lamps were
operated continuously. A movable integrating sphere (light
measurement device) took spectral measurements on each lamp every 100
hours for the first 3,000 hours of operation, and every 168 hours
(weekly) thereafter. Data for the first 7,000 hours of operation were
used to predict lumen maintenance of the lamps at 25,000 hours. With
95 percent confidence, lumen maintenance is predicted to be 97.1
percent* at 25,000 hours, which significantly exceeds the 70 percent
L Prize requirement.

So apparently all samples were proven to last at least 7K hours without
failure; it's apparently too soon to say whether they'll actually last 25K
hours plus or not but it's not looking bad.

I know it sounds like I'm really pushing these bulbs but I'm not
affiliated with Philips or DoE in any way, I'm just a consumer who's
discovered a product that I really like and am kind of excited about. I
wouldn't pay $50 for one of these bulbs, mostly because I don't have the
money to be shelling out $50 for the equivalent of something that I can
buy for $2 give or take (in the form of a traditional incandescent) but at
$15 you can make the argument that it will save money on air conditioning
and electrical power, plus then you don't have to feel the guilt of
running big incandescents - not that I have in years; at my last house the
only incandescents were in seldom used hallways and in the living room and
kitchen where there were dimmer switches and I could not find any
acceptable more efficient solution (and yes, I have to admit, I did feel
somewhat guilty about those...)

I'm also a little surprised that this is a Philips product. My money
would have been on Cree a few years ago, but it appears that the commonly
available Cree incandescent light bulb replacements don't have either the
efficiency or CRI of the Philips bulb. I haven't seen any of them in
operation so I can't comment how they stack up subjectively, but they're
about $13 retail, dimmer, and have lower CRI (similar to the common
Philips LED "bulbs" that are actually easy to obtain) and a quick google
did not yield data on where they're made, so I'm just ASSuming China. So
unless someone who's spent more time geeking out on this subject than I
has data to the contrary, my (non-professional) opinion is that it's worth
a little extra effort to search out the Philips L-prize bulb in
particular. However, I wouldn't be surprised if the Cree and older
Philips LEDs were still subjectively more pleasing than a typical CFL. I
have a Utilitech 9W LED bulb that I bought last year when Lowe's had them
on sale for $9 or so just out of curiosity, and I do find it preferable to
CFLs and will continue to use it - but I'm sure that the CRI is probably
around 80 and its color temp is a little higher than many people would
probably like.

While I'm rambling on on the subject, I'm tempted to try to hack together
an adapter that will allow two bulbs to act like a 3-way incandescent,
because the very lamp that prompted that geekery is a 3-way socket and
they seem to still be very common, especially for table lamps which may be
used for both ambient light and also reading. It wouldn't actually work
exactly like a 3-way as I'd be using two bulbs of equivalent light output
rather than one appx. twice as bright as the other, but I hope that that
changes in the future (or, if CRI is less important to you, you could use
some of the Cree bulbs or older design Philips bulbs which are available
in multiple lumen ratings.) Or maybe in a few years we'll be able to get
high quality, high output 3-way LED bulbs? I can only hope so.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

According to a Philips Lighting speaker that I heard at a conference
recently, the high price of their "L Prize" bulb is due to (1) it's
made-in-the-USA costs which were a requirement of the DOE who sponsored the
L Prize competition (2) the high 90+ color rendering index requirement and
(3) the projected sales which are expected to be less than "commodity" LED
bulbs with poorer performance and shorter life.

Late last year, the California Energy Commission adopted a ruling that set
up performance specifications similar to the L Prize bulb. They're called
"California Quality" requirements. The plan is to have the utilities in
California rebate only California Quality bulbs next year and to make those
rebates substanial. It's interesting that the DOE and the CEC both feel
that the quality of light (good color, high light output, long life) are
important if consumers are to accept them. Reading about all of the poor
performing bulb products on this ng, including the sad stories about CFLs,
it seems about time that we have quality products that offer value if we're
ever to replace the energy-wasting incandescent bulbs.

Tomsic

On 04/28/2013 06:11 PM, Tomsic wrote:
"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...

--- SNIP ---


Has anyone seen any independent testing that supports b?

It seems like they will...

http://www.lightingprize.org/

http://www.lightingprize.org/60watttest.stm

In June 2010, the next stage of evaluation began: long-term lumen
maintenance testing. The 200 samples were sent to Pacific Northwest
National Laboratory to be tested in a new high-temperature testing
apparatus specifically designed for the L Prize competition and built
with assistance from Orb Optronix. The test bed was maintained at
45°C to simulate actual operating conditions and the lamps were
operated continuously. A movable integrating sphere (light
measurement device) took spectral measurements on each lamp every 100
hours for the first 3,000 hours of operation, and every 168 hours
(weekly) thereafter. Data for the first 7,000 hours of operation were
used to predict lumen maintenance of the lamps at 25,000 hours. With
95 percent confidence, lumen maintenance is predicted to be 97.1
percent* at 25,000 hours, which significantly exceeds the 70 percent
L Prize requirement.

So apparently all samples were proven to last at least 7K hours without
failure; it's apparently too soon to say whether they'll actually last 25K
hours plus or not but it's not looking bad.

I know it sounds like I'm really pushing these bulbs but I'm not
affiliated with Philips or DoE in any way, I'm just a consumer who's
discovered a product that I really like and am kind of excited about. I
wouldn't pay $50 for one of these bulbs, mostly because I don't have the
money to be shelling out $50 for the equivalent of something that I can
buy for $2 give or take (in the form of a traditional incandescent) but at
$15 you can make the argument that it will save money on air conditioning
and electrical power, plus then you don't have to feel the guilt of
running big incandescents - not that I have in years; at my last house the
only incandescents were in seldom used hallways and in the living room and
kitchen where there were dimmer switches and I could not find any
acceptable more efficient solution (and yes, I have to admit, I did feel
somewhat guilty about those...)

I'm also a little surprised that this is a Philips product. My money
would have been on Cree a few years ago, but it appears that the commonly
available Cree incandescent light bulb replacements don't have either the
efficiency or CRI of the Philips bulb. I haven't seen any of them in
operation so I can't comment how they stack up subjectively, but they're
about $13 retail, dimmer, and have lower CRI (similar to the common
Philips LED "bulbs" that are actually easy to obtain) and a quick google
did not yield data on where they're made, so I'm just ASSuming China. So
unless someone who's spent more time geeking out on this subject than I
has data to the contrary, my (non-professional) opinion is that it's worth
a little extra effort to search out the Philips L-prize bulb in
particular. However, I wouldn't be surprised if the Cree and older
Philips LEDs were still subjectively more pleasing than a typical CFL. I
have a Utilitech 9W LED bulb that I bought last year when Lowe's had them
on sale for $9 or so just out of curiosity, and I do find it preferable to
CFLs and will continue to use it - but I'm sure that the CRI is probably
around 80 and its color temp is a little higher than many people would
probably like.

While I'm rambling on on the subject, I'm tempted to try to hack together
an adapter that will allow two bulbs to act like a 3-way incandescent,
because the very lamp that prompted that geekery is a 3-way socket and
they seem to still be very common, especially for table lamps which may be
used for both ambient light and also reading. It wouldn't actually work
exactly like a 3-way as I'd be using two bulbs of equivalent light output
rather than one appx. twice as bright as the other, but I hope that that
changes in the future (or, if CRI is less important to you, you could use
some of the Cree bulbs or older design Philips bulbs which are available
in multiple lumen ratings.) Or maybe in a few years we'll be able to get
high quality, high output 3-way LED bulbs? I can only hope so.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

According to a Philips Lighting speaker that I heard at a conference
recently, the high price of their "L Prize" bulb is due to (1) it's
made-in-the-USA costs which were a requirement of the DOE who sponsored the
L Prize competition (2) the high 90+ color rendering index requirement and
(3) the projected sales which are expected to be less than "commodity" LED
bulbs with poorer performance and shorter life.

I'm not surprised by that at all...

but the 90+ CRI is one of the main reasons that I'm excited about this
bulb as opposed to the majority of other offerings on the market (the
other being the un-fudged lumen output for a "60W equivalent")


Late last year, the California Energy Commission adopted a ruling that set
up performance specifications similar to the L Prize bulb. They're called
"California Quality" requirements. The plan is to have the utilities in
California rebate only California Quality bulbs next year and to make those
rebates substanial. It's interesting that the DOE and the CEC both feel
that the quality of light (good color, high light output, long life) are
important if consumers are to accept them. Reading about all of the poor
performing bulb products on this ng, including the sad stories about CFLs,
it seems about time that we have quality products that offer value if we're
ever to replace the energy-wasting incandescent bulbs.

Ayup, but I have a feeling that this bulb will quietly disappear after a
while. "California Quality" I think the L-prize fails because of
its poor power factor.

http://www.ledjournal.com/main/blogs...lity-led-bulb/

The Cree bulbs, which are the ones that HD is pushing now, seem
decent-ish but have a published CRI that doesn't meet the specs, and
some have reported a detectable flicker, BUT the do have power factor
correction. So there's apparently no "perfect" bulb on the market,
although the L-prize bulb with power factor correction would be pretty
darn close.

nate


--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 05/10/2013 09:52 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 04/28/2013 06:11 PM, Tomsic wrote:
"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...

--- SNIP ---


Has anyone seen any independent testing that supports b?

It seems like they will...

http://www.lightingprize.org/

http://www.lightingprize.org/60watttest.stm

In June 2010, the next stage of evaluation began: long-term lumen
maintenance testing. The 200 samples were sent to Pacific Northwest
National Laboratory to be tested in a new high-temperature testing
apparatus specifically designed for the L Prize competition and built
with assistance from Orb Optronix. The test bed was maintained at
45°C to simulate actual operating conditions and the lamps were
operated continuously. A movable integrating sphere (light
measurement device) took spectral measurements on each lamp every 100
hours for the first 3,000 hours of operation, and every 168 hours
(weekly) thereafter. Data for the first 7,000 hours of operation were
used to predict lumen maintenance of the lamps at 25,000 hours. With
95 percent confidence, lumen maintenance is predicted to be 97.1
percent* at 25,000 hours, which significantly exceeds the 70 percent
L Prize requirement.

So apparently all samples were proven to last at least 7K hours without
failure; it's apparently too soon to say whether they'll actually
last 25K
hours plus or not but it's not looking bad.

I know it sounds like I'm really pushing these bulbs but I'm not
affiliated with Philips or DoE in any way, I'm just a consumer who's
discovered a product that I really like and am kind of excited about. I
wouldn't pay $50 for one of these bulbs, mostly because I don't have the
money to be shelling out $50 for the equivalent of something that I can
buy for $2 give or take (in the form of a traditional incandescent)
but at
$15 you can make the argument that it will save money on air
conditioning
and electrical power, plus then you don't have to feel the guilt of
running big incandescents - not that I have in years; at my last
house the
only incandescents were in seldom used hallways and in the living
room and
kitchen where there were dimmer switches and I could not find any
acceptable more efficient solution (and yes, I have to admit, I did feel
somewhat guilty about those...)

I'm also a little surprised that this is a Philips product. My money
would have been on Cree a few years ago, but it appears that the
commonly
available Cree incandescent light bulb replacements don't have either
the
efficiency or CRI of the Philips bulb. I haven't seen any of them in
operation so I can't comment how they stack up subjectively, but they're
about $13 retail, dimmer, and have lower CRI (similar to the common
Philips LED "bulbs" that are actually easy to obtain) and a quick google
did not yield data on where they're made, so I'm just ASSuming
China. So
unless someone who's spent more time geeking out on this subject than I
has data to the contrary, my (non-professional) opinion is that it's
worth
a little extra effort to search out the Philips L-prize bulb in
particular. However, I wouldn't be surprised if the Cree and older
Philips LEDs were still subjectively more pleasing than a typical
CFL. I
have a Utilitech 9W LED bulb that I bought last year when Lowe's had
them
on sale for $9 or so just out of curiosity, and I do find it
preferable to
CFLs and will continue to use it - but I'm sure that the CRI is probably
around 80 and its color temp is a little higher than many people would
probably like.

While I'm rambling on on the subject, I'm tempted to try to hack
together
an adapter that will allow two bulbs to act like a 3-way incandescent,
because the very lamp that prompted that geekery is a 3-way socket and
they seem to still be very common, especially for table lamps which
may be
used for both ambient light and also reading. It wouldn't actually work
exactly like a 3-way as I'd be using two bulbs of equivalent light
output
rather than one appx. twice as bright as the other, but I hope that that
changes in the future (or, if CRI is less important to you, you could
use
some of the Cree bulbs or older design Philips bulbs which are available
in multiple lumen ratings.) Or maybe in a few years we'll be able to
get
high quality, high output 3-way LED bulbs? I can only hope so.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

According to a Philips Lighting speaker that I heard at a conference
recently, the high price of their "L Prize" bulb is due to (1) it's
made-in-the-USA costs which were a requirement of the DOE who
sponsored the
L Prize competition (2) the high 90+ color rendering index requirement
and
(3) the projected sales which are expected to be less than "commodity"
LED
bulbs with poorer performance and shorter life.

I'm not surprised by that at all...

but the 90+ CRI is one of the main reasons that I'm excited about this
bulb as opposed to the majority of other offerings on the market (the
other being the un-fudged lumen output for a "60W equivalent")


Late last year, the California Energy Commission adopted a ruling that
set
up performance specifications similar to the L Prize bulb. They're
called
"California Quality" requirements. The plan is to have the utilities in
California rebate only California Quality bulbs next year and to make
those
rebates substanial. It's interesting that the DOE and the CEC both feel
that the quality of light (good color, high light output, long life) are
important if consumers are to accept them. Reading about all of the poor
performing bulb products on this ng, including the sad stories about
CFLs,
it seems about time that we have quality products that offer value if
we're
ever to replace the energy-wasting incandescent bulbs.

Ayup, but I have a feeling that this bulb will quietly disappear after a
while. "California Quality" I think the L-prize fails because of
its poor power factor.

http://www.ledjournal.com/main/blogs...lity-led-bulb/


The Cree bulbs, which are the ones that HD is pushing now, seem
decent-ish but have a published CRI that doesn't meet the specs, and
some have reported a detectable flicker, BUT the do have power factor
correction. So there's apparently no "perfect" bulb on the market,
although the L-prize bulb with power factor correction would be pretty
darn close.

nate



found he

http://www.lightingfacts.com/products

looks like there is now exactly one other high CRI standard form factor
bulb on the market

http://lednovation.com/products/pdf/..._spec_revE.pdf

which does in fact also have a high power factor.

unfortunately, a web search reveals that it is expensive (shocker!) out
of stock at all of the few places I checked (I didn't spend a lot of
time on this though) and one amazon review mentioned an audible buzz.

But we're getting there...

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...
On 04/28/2013 06:11 PM, Tomsic wrote:
"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...

--- SNIP ---


Has anyone seen any independent testing that supports b?

It seems like they will...

http://www.lightingprize.org/

http://www.lightingprize.org/60watttest.stm

In June 2010, the next stage of evaluation began: long-term lumen
maintenance testing. The 200 samples were sent to Pacific Northwest
National Laboratory to be tested in a new high-temperature testing
apparatus specifically designed for the L Prize competition and built
with assistance from Orb Optronix. The test bed was maintained at
450C to simulate actual operating conditions and the lamps were
operated continuously. A movable integrating sphere (light
measurement device) took spectral measurements on each lamp every 100
hours for the first 3,000 hours of operation, and every 168 hours
(weekly) thereafter. Data for the first 7,000 hours of operation were
used to predict lumen maintenance of the lamps at 25,000 hours. With
95 percent confidence, lumen maintenance is predicted to be 97.1
percent* at 25,000 hours, which significantly exceeds the 70 percent
L Prize requirement.

So apparently all samples were proven to last at least 7K hours without
failure; it's apparently too soon to say whether they'll actually last
25K
hours plus or not but it's not looking bad.

I know it sounds like I'm really pushing these bulbs but I'm not
affiliated with Philips or DoE in any way, I'm just a consumer who's
discovered a product that I really like and am kind of excited about. I
wouldn't pay $50 for one of these bulbs, mostly because I don't have the
money to be shelling out $50 for the equivalent of something that I can
buy for $2 give or take (in the form of a traditional incandescent) but
at
$15 you can make the argument that it will save money on air
conditioning
and electrical power, plus then you don't have to feel the guilt of
running big incandescents - not that I have in years; at my last house
the
only incandescents were in seldom used hallways and in the living room
and
kitchen where there were dimmer switches and I could not find any
acceptable more efficient solution (and yes, I have to admit, I did feel
somewhat guilty about those...)

I'm also a little surprised that this is a Philips product. My money
would have been on Cree a few years ago, but it appears that the
commonly
available Cree incandescent light bulb replacements don't have either
the
efficiency or CRI of the Philips bulb. I haven't seen any of them in
operation so I can't comment how they stack up subjectively, but they're
about $13 retail, dimmer, and have lower CRI (similar to the common
Philips LED "bulbs" that are actually easy to obtain) and a quick google
did not yield data on where they're made, so I'm just ASSuming China.
So
unless someone who's spent more time geeking out on this subject than I
has data to the contrary, my (non-professional) opinion is that it's
worth
a little extra effort to search out the Philips L-prize bulb in
particular. However, I wouldn't be surprised if the Cree and older
Philips LEDs were still subjectively more pleasing than a typical CFL.
I
have a Utilitech 9W LED bulb that I bought last year when Lowe's had
them
on sale for $9 or so just out of curiosity, and I do find it preferable
to
CFLs and will continue to use it - but I'm sure that the CRI is probably
around 80 and its color temp is a little higher than many people would
probably like.

While I'm rambling on on the subject, I'm tempted to try to hack
together
an adapter that will allow two bulbs to act like a 3-way incandescent,
because the very lamp that prompted that geekery is a 3-way socket and
they seem to still be very common, especially for table lamps which may
be
used for both ambient light and also reading. It wouldn't actually work
exactly like a 3-way as I'd be using two bulbs of equivalent light
output
rather than one appx. twice as bright as the other, but I hope that that
changes in the future (or, if CRI is less important to you, you could
use
some of the Cree bulbs or older design Philips bulbs which are available
in multiple lumen ratings.) Or maybe in a few years we'll be able to
get
high quality, high output 3-way LED bulbs? I can only hope so.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

According to a Philips Lighting speaker that I heard at a conference
recently, the high price of their "L Prize" bulb is due to (1) it's
made-in-the-USA costs which were a requirement of the DOE who sponsored
the
L Prize competition (2) the high 90+ color rendering index requirement
and
(3) the projected sales which are expected to be less than "commodity"
LED
bulbs with poorer performance and shorter life.

I'm not surprised by that at all...

but the 90+ CRI is one of the main reasons that I'm excited about this
bulb as opposed to the majority of other offerings on the market (the
other being the un-fudged lumen output for a "60W equivalent")


Late last year, the California Energy Commission adopted a ruling that
set
up performance specifications similar to the L Prize bulb. They're
called
"California Quality" requirements. The plan is to have the utilities in
California rebate only California Quality bulbs next year and to make
those
rebates substanial. It's interesting that the DOE and the CEC both feel
that the quality of light (good color, high light output, long life) are
important if consumers are to accept them. Reading about all of the poor
performing bulb products on this ng, including the sad stories about
CFLs,
it seems about time that we have quality products that offer value if
we're
ever to replace the energy-wasting incandescent bulbs.

Ayup, but I have a feeling that this bulb will quietly disappear after a
while. "California Quality" I think the L-prize fails because of its
poor power factor.

http://www.ledjournal.com/main/blogs...lity-led-bulb/

The Cree bulbs, which are the ones that HD is pushing now, seem decent-ish
but have a published CRI that doesn't meet the specs, and some have
reported a detectable flicker, BUT the do have power factor correction.
So there's apparently no "perfect" bulb on the market, although the
L-prize bulb with power factor correction would be pretty darn close.

nate

I agree. It's odd that such a fuss is being made about power factor though.
The effect on the electrical system in a single family home even with
several homes on the power transformer out on the pole is tiny when power
factors are either 0.5., 0.7 or 0.9. These are the requirements for the
various lighting devices as regulated by the California Energy Commission
for products sold in California.

Tomsic