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Finally an alternative to incandescents?
I've been interested in finding a more acceptable solution to indoor
lighting than the usual spiral CFLs for a while now, yesterday I was researching LED light bulbs as I was actually repairing an outdoor post light (and am trying a 4W LED in it, although I don't think it's bright enough for the application) and found this: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips-1...0#BVRRWidgetID which is available at select (read: almost none) Home Depots but the secret is that if you can find them, they're apparently subsidized by local utilities or something to about $15 apiece, not the $50 listed on the web site. A store about 50 miles away from me had a stock of them however and I have a friend who works in that area so I imposed on him to get me a couple. I have a feeling I need more of these. They have a CRI of 92 (normal CFLs and most LEDs are in the 70-80 range) Surprisingly, HD does not even mention CRI at all in their description of this product although to me it's a bigger deal than the efficiency. However if you research the L-prize you'll find that a CRI of 90 was one of the conditions. They also turn on instantly, and are actually bright. Well, almost instantly - there's a very brief but noticable delay between flipping the switch and getting light. It's really the one way you can tell that you're not turning on an incandescent bulb but something more complicated and electronic. I remember when we didn't try to skimp on light bulb size and actually lit up a room, but since switching to CFLs it's hard to get enough light in some spaces. Two of these 10W bulbs are definitely brighter than the single 40W CFL with which I was trying to light up a difficult room (dark paneling, main lighting from a torchiere with a dark colored shade that reflects most of the light up, would have been acceptable with a 200+ watt 3-way incandescent which is what it was obviously designed for, but nothing else produced acceptable light) and there's none of that annoying brightness ramp-up that you get from CFLs. One thing that I have not tested with these bulbs is dimming ability. Supposedly it works, but some dimmers will buzz and hum. But if you don't have dimmers, don't have fully enclosed light fixtures, and don't mind (or can't see in your application) the odd shape/color of the bulb when unlit, there's really nothing at all I can find fault with. Best part - this bulb is actually assembled in the USA, and apparently the LEDs used are made in the USA as well! This may be old news for some as apparently they've been available @ HD at the discounted price for about a month now, but I figured this was worth posting because a) I don't go into HD that often and b) even if I did, none of the stores local to me carry this bulb so if I hadn't gone looking for it online I would not have known that it was actually available (and if someone hadn't mentioned to check the price, the $50 price listed on HD's web site would have put me off...) Hope this helps someone... nate -- replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel |
Finally an alternative to incandescents?
On 04/26/2013 07:00 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
I've been interested in finding a more acceptable solution to indoor lighting than the usual spiral CFLs for a while now, yesterday I was researching LED light bulbs as I was actually repairing an outdoor post light (and am trying a 4W LED in it, although I don't think it's bright enough for the application) and found this: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips-1...0#BVRRWidgetID which is available at select (read: almost none) Home Depots but the secret is that if you can find them, they're apparently subsidized by local utilities or something to about $15 apiece, not the $50 listed on the web site. A store about 50 miles away from me had a stock of them however and I have a friend who works in that area so I imposed on him to get me a couple. I have a feeling I need more of these. They have a CRI of 92 (normal CFLs and most LEDs are in the 70-80 range) Surprisingly, HD does not even mention CRI at all in their description of this product although to me it's a bigger deal than the efficiency. However if you research the L-prize you'll find that a CRI of 90 was one of the conditions. They also turn on instantly, and are actually bright. Well, almost instantly - there's a very brief but noticable delay between flipping the switch and getting light. It's really the one way you can tell that you're not turning on an incandescent bulb but something more complicated and electronic. I remember when we didn't try to skimp on light bulb size and actually lit up a room, but since switching to CFLs it's hard to get enough light in some spaces. Two of these 10W bulbs are definitely brighter than the single 40W CFL with which I was trying to light up a difficult room (dark paneling, main lighting from a torchiere with a dark colored shade that reflects most of the light up, would have been acceptable with a 200+ watt 3-way incandescent which is what it was obviously designed for, but nothing else produced acceptable light) and there's none of that annoying brightness ramp-up that you get from CFLs. One thing that I have not tested with these bulbs is dimming ability. Supposedly it works, but some dimmers will buzz and hum. But if you don't have dimmers, don't have fully enclosed light fixtures, and don't mind (or can't see in your application) the odd shape/color of the bulb when unlit, there's really nothing at all I can find fault with. Best part - this bulb is actually assembled in the USA, and apparently the LEDs used are made in the USA as well! This may be old news for some as apparently they've been available @ HD at the discounted price for about a month now, but I figured this was worth posting because a) I don't go into HD that often and b) even if I did, none of the stores local to me carry this bulb so if I hadn't gone looking for it online I would not have known that it was actually available (and if someone hadn't mentioned to check the price, the $50 price listed on HD's web site would have put me off...) Hope this helps someone... nate Forgot to add... the really amusing thing about this bulb is the packaging. Philips hits a home run with this product which will likely primarily appeal to eco-weenies and people who actually geek out over things like light bulbs... and yet the packaging is that awful heat sealed clamshell plastic, and about 3x as large as it needs to be. I can't imagine any packaging more annoying, or, here's the ironic bit, less eco-friendly... nate -- replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel |
Finally an alternative to incandescents?
Thanks Nate...all LED's tend to be like buying "a pig in a poke"!
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Finally an alternative to incandescents?
On 4/26/2013 7:05 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
Forgot to add... the really amusing thing about this bulb is the packaging. Philips hits a home run with this product which will likely primarily appeal to eco-weenies and people who actually geek out over things like light bulbs... and yet the packaging is that awful heat sealed clamshell plastic, and about 3x as large as it needs to be. You can thank the democrats for today's clam-shell packaging. You see, lazy Democrats are used to free government handouts like free cell phones, free housing and of course the WIC program. But the government has failed them a bit. There is no free light bulb program so the lazy democraps have to go to Lowes Depot and steal them. Maybe we need a USF type fund for light bulbs? |
Finally an alternative to incandescents?
On Apr 26, 7:00*am, Nate Nagel wrote:
I've been interested in finding a more acceptable solution to indoor lighting than the usual spiral CFLs for a while now, yesterday I was researching LED light bulbs as I was actually repairing an outdoor post light (and am trying a 4W LED in it, although I don't think it's bright enough for the application) and found this: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips-1...Soft-White-270... which is available at select (read: almost none) Home Depots but the secret is that if you can find them, they're apparently subsidized by local utilities or something to about $15 apiece, not the $50 listed on the web site. *A store about 50 miles away from me had a stock of them however and I have a friend who works in that area so I imposed on him to get me a couple. I have a feeling I need more of these. *They have a CRI of 92 (normal CFLs and most LEDs are in the 70-80 range) *Surprisingly, HD does not even mention CRI at all in their description of this product although to me it's a bigger deal than the efficiency. *However if you research the L-prize you'll find that a CRI of 90 was one of the conditions. *They also turn on instantly, and are actually bright. *Well, almost instantly - there's a very brief but noticable delay between flipping the switch and getting light. *It's really the one way you can tell that you're not turning on an incandescent bulb but something more complicated and electronic. *I remember when we didn't try to skimp on light bulb size and actually lit up a room, but since switching to CFLs it's hard to get enough light in some spaces. *Two of these 10W bulbs are definitely brighter than the single 40W CFL with which I was trying to light up a difficult room (dark paneling, main lighting from a torchiere with a dark colored shade that reflects most of the light up, would have been acceptable with a 200+ watt 3-way incandescent which is what it was obviously designed for, but nothing else produced acceptable light) and there's none of that annoying brightness ramp-up that you get from CFLs. One thing that I have not tested with these bulbs is dimming ability. Supposedly it works, but some dimmers will buzz and hum. *But if you don't have dimmers, don't have fully enclosed light fixtures, and don't mind (or can't see in your application) the odd shape/color of the bulb when unlit, there's really nothing at all I can find fault with. Best part - this bulb is actually assembled in the USA, and apparently the LEDs used are made in the USA as well! This may be old news for some as apparently they've been available @ HD at the discounted price for about a month now, but I figured this was worth posting because a) I don't go into HD that often and b) even if I did, none of the stores local to me carry this bulb so if I hadn't gone looking for it online I would not have known that it was actually available (and if someone hadn't mentioned to check the price, the $50 price listed on HD's web site would have put me off...) What $50 price? The link you provided to the HD website had them for $15. Hope this helps someone... nate -- Yes, good to know. At some point I guess I'll try buying one. My experience with CFL's though makes me hesitant. Even now the results from one brand to another or even within the same brand a year later are not consistent. These are even more expensive, so you really have to believe that A: They put out nice light B: They will last long enough to recover your money. Has anyone seen any independent testing that supports b? |
Finally an alternative to incandescents?
On 04/26/2013 09:06 AM, wrote:
On Apr 26, 7:00 am, Nate Nagel wrote: I've been interested in finding a more acceptable solution to indoor lighting than the usual spiral CFLs for a while now, yesterday I was researching LED light bulbs as I was actually repairing an outdoor post light (and am trying a 4W LED in it, although I don't think it's bright enough for the application) and found this: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips-1...Soft-White-270... which is available at select (read: almost none) Home Depots but the secret is that if you can find them, they're apparently subsidized by local utilities or something to about $15 apiece, not the $50 listed on the web site. A store about 50 miles away from me had a stock of them however and I have a friend who works in that area so I imposed on him to get me a couple. I have a feeling I need more of these. They have a CRI of 92 (normal CFLs and most LEDs are in the 70-80 range) Surprisingly, HD does not even mention CRI at all in their description of this product although to me it's a bigger deal than the efficiency. However if you research the L-prize you'll find that a CRI of 90 was one of the conditions. They also turn on instantly, and are actually bright. Well, almost instantly - there's a very brief but noticable delay between flipping the switch and getting light. It's really the one way you can tell that you're not turning on an incandescent bulb but something more complicated and electronic. I remember when we didn't try to skimp on light bulb size and actually lit up a room, but since switching to CFLs it's hard to get enough light in some spaces. Two of these 10W bulbs are definitely brighter than the single 40W CFL with which I was trying to light up a difficult room (dark paneling, main lighting from a torchiere with a dark colored shade that reflects most of the light up, would have been acceptable with a 200+ watt 3-way incandescent which is what it was obviously designed for, but nothing else produced acceptable light) and there's none of that annoying brightness ramp-up that you get from CFLs. One thing that I have not tested with these bulbs is dimming ability. Supposedly it works, but some dimmers will buzz and hum. But if you don't have dimmers, don't have fully enclosed light fixtures, and don't mind (or can't see in your application) the odd shape/color of the bulb when unlit, there's really nothing at all I can find fault with. Best part - this bulb is actually assembled in the USA, and apparently the LEDs used are made in the USA as well! This may be old news for some as apparently they've been available @ HD at the discounted price for about a month now, but I figured this was worth posting because a) I don't go into HD that often and b) even if I did, none of the stores local to me carry this bulb so if I hadn't gone looking for it online I would not have known that it was actually available (and if someone hadn't mentioned to check the price, the $50 price listed on HD's web site would have put me off...) What $50 price? The link you provided to the HD website had them for $15. I just went back and clicked on my own link; the "online price" (except you can't even buy it online, it's a "store exclusive" product) is $49.97 each for me. Maybe HD is adjusting the pricing based on location? Perhaps in your location they are actually readily available in stores at the lower price? I have no idea... The Wikipedia article on high-CRI LEDs is actually where I discovered that HD was selling them, see the footnote at the bottom of the A19 section. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_CRI_LED_Lighting Hope this helps someone... nate -- Yes, good to know. At some point I guess I'll try buying one. My experience with CFL's though makes me hesitant. Even now the results from one brand to another or even within the same brand a year later are not consistent. These are even more expensive, so you really have to believe that A: They put out nice light In my opinion they do... of course today is only day two of use, but I am consistently noticing the difference when I go into the room where they're installed; it was annoying as there is no ceiling fixture in that room and it's naturally dark so the lighting in that room comes from a floor lamp on a wall switch as I mentioned above. In that particular room, the only really good solution previously would have been a 200W plus incandescent and my inner granola munching hippie was offended by that solution. I used a socket extension and a one-to-two socket Y-adapter to stuff two of my Philips LED bulbs in that light, and for a total of 20W worth of LEDs the total light is perhaps slightly less than I would prefer if energy consumption was not a consideration at all but it is definitely superior in every way to the 40W CFL that I was previously using, most notably the ramp up time (it seems like the brighter the CFL, or if it is enclosed in a globe for outdoor use or decorative bath fixtures, the more likely the CFL is to have a noticeable and annoying ramp up.) Combined with my third Philips LED bulb on a table lamp, the room is acceptably lit and it feels like a luxury to have a similar quality of light as I remember having as a kid before we worried about stuff like this. I thought about using the Y-adapter idea with two of the more common 13W CFLs because my guess was even that would have been a better solution than the 40W CFL but never actually got around to doing it. Remember once upon a time when it was recommended to use 150W bulbs or higher in a table lamp next to the chair you'd sit in to spend some quality time with a book to reduce eye strain? I do... B: They will last long enough to recover your money. Has anyone seen any independent testing that supports b? It seems like they will... http://www.lightingprize.org/ http://www.lightingprize.org/60watttest.stm In June 2010, the next stage of evaluation began: long-term lumen maintenance testing. The 200 samples were sent to Pacific Northwest National Laboratory to be tested in a new high-temperature testing apparatus specifically designed for the L Prize competition and built with assistance from Orb Optronix. The test bed was maintained at 45°C to simulate actual operating conditions and the lamps were operated continuously. A movable integrating sphere (light measurement device) took spectral measurements on each lamp every 100 hours for the first 3,000 hours of operation, and every 168 hours (weekly) thereafter. Data for the first 7,000 hours of operation were used to predict lumen maintenance of the lamps at 25,000 hours. With 95 percent confidence, lumen maintenance is predicted to be 97.1 percent* at 25,000 hours, which significantly exceeds the 70 percent L Prize requirement. So apparently all samples were proven to last at least 7K hours without failure; it's apparently too soon to say whether they'll actually last 25K hours plus or not but it's not looking bad. I know it sounds like I'm really pushing these bulbs but I'm not affiliated with Philips or DoE in any way, I'm just a consumer who's discovered a product that I really like and am kind of excited about. I wouldn't pay $50 for one of these bulbs, mostly because I don't have the money to be shelling out $50 for the equivalent of something that I can buy for $2 give or take (in the form of a traditional incandescent) but at $15 you can make the argument that it will save money on air conditioning and electrical power, plus then you don't have to feel the guilt of running big incandescents - not that I have in years; at my last house the only incandescents were in seldom used hallways and in the living room and kitchen where there were dimmer switches and I could not find any acceptable more efficient solution (and yes, I have to admit, I did feel somewhat guilty about those...) I'm also a little surprised that this is a Philips product. My money would have been on Cree a few years ago, but it appears that the commonly available Cree incandescent light bulb replacements don't have either the efficiency or CRI of the Philips bulb. I haven't seen any of them in operation so I can't comment how they stack up subjectively, but they're about $13 retail, dimmer, and have lower CRI (similar to the common Philips LED "bulbs" that are actually easy to obtain) and a quick google did not yield data on where they're made, so I'm just ASSuming China. So unless someone who's spent more time geeking out on this subject than I has data to the contrary, my (non-professional) opinion is that it's worth a little extra effort to search out the Philips L-prize bulb in particular. However, I wouldn't be surprised if the Cree and older Philips LEDs were still subjectively more pleasing than a typical CFL. I have a Utilitech 9W LED bulb that I bought last year when Lowe's had them on sale for $9 or so just out of curiosity, and I do find it preferable to CFLs and will continue to use it - but I'm sure that the CRI is probably around 80 and its color temp is a little higher than many people would probably like. While I'm rambling on on the subject, I'm tempted to try to hack together an adapter that will allow two bulbs to act like a 3-way incandescent, because the very lamp that prompted that geekery is a 3-way socket and they seem to still be very common, especially for table lamps which may be used for both ambient light and also reading. It wouldn't actually work exactly like a 3-way as I'd be using two bulbs of equivalent light output rather than one appx. twice as bright as the other, but I hope that that changes in the future (or, if CRI is less important to you, you could use some of the Cree bulbs or older design Philips bulbs which are available in multiple lumen ratings.) Or maybe in a few years we'll be able to get high quality, high output 3-way LED bulbs? I can only hope so. nate -- replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel |
Finally an alternative to incandescents?
On Apr 26, 9:46*am, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 04/26/2013 09:06 AM, wrote: On Apr 26, 7:00 am, Nate Nagel wrote: I've been interested in finding a more acceptable solution to indoor lighting than the usual spiral CFLs for a while now, yesterday I was researching LED light bulbs as I was actually repairing an outdoor post light (and am trying a 4W LED in it, although I don't think it's bright enough for the application) and found this: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips-1...Soft-White-270.... which is available at select (read: almost none) Home Depots but the secret is that if you can find them, they're apparently subsidized by local utilities or something to about $15 apiece, not the $50 listed on the web site. *A store about 50 miles away from me had a stock of them however and I have a friend who works in that area so I imposed on him to get me a couple. I have a feeling I need more of these. *They have a CRI of 92 (normal CFLs and most LEDs are in the 70-80 range) *Surprisingly, HD does not even mention CRI at all in their description of this product although to me it's a bigger deal than the efficiency. However if you research the L-prize you'll find that a CRI of 90 was one of the conditions. *They also turn on instantly, and are actually bright. *Well, almost instantly - there's a very brief but noticable delay between flipping the switch and getting light. It's really the one way you can tell that you're not turning on an incandescent bulb but something more complicated and electronic. *I remember when we didn't try to skimp on light bulb size and actually lit up a room, but since switching to CFLs it's hard to get enough light in some spaces. *Two of these 10W bulbs are definitely brighter than the single 40W CFL with which I was trying to light up a difficult room (dark paneling, main lighting from a torchiere with a dark colored shade that reflects most of the light up, would have been acceptable with a 200+ watt 3-way incandescent which is what it was obviously designed for, but nothing else produced acceptable light) and there's none of that annoying brightness ramp-up that you get from CFLs. One thing that I have not tested with these bulbs is dimming ability. Supposedly it works, but some dimmers will buzz and hum. But if you don't have dimmers, don't have fully enclosed light fixtures, and don't mind (or can't see in your application) the odd shape/color of the bulb when unlit, there's really nothing at all I can find fault with. Best part - this bulb is actually assembled in the USA, and apparently the LEDs used are made in the USA as well! This may be old news for some as apparently they've been available @ HD at the discounted price for about a month now, but I figured this was worth posting because a) I don't go into HD that often and b) even if I did, none of the stores local to me carry this bulb so if I hadn't gone looking for it online I would not have known that it was actually available (and if someone hadn't mentioned to check the price, the $50 price listed on HD's web site would have put me off...) What $50 price? *The link you provided to the HD website had them for $15. I just went back and clicked on my own link; the "online price" (except you can't even buy it online, it's a "store exclusive" product) is $49.97 each for me. *Maybe HD is adjusting the pricing based on location? *Perhaps in your location they are actually readily available in stores at the lower price? *I have no idea... That's interesting. It shows up as $14.95 here. Technically you can also buy it online but you have to pick it up at the store. Try a NJ zipocode, 07753, and see what price you get. -- Yes, good to know. *At some point I guess I'll try buying one. My experience with CFL's though makes me hesitant. *Even now the results from one brand to another or even within the same brand a year later are not consistent. *These are even more expensive, so you really have to believe that A: They put out nice light In my opinion they do... *of course today is only day two of use, but I am consistently noticing the difference when I go into the room where they're installed; it was annoying as there is no ceiling fixture in that room and it's naturally dark so the lighting in that room comes from a floor lamp on a wall switch as I mentioned above. *In that particular room, the only really good solution previously would have been a 200W plus incandescent and my inner granola munching hippie was offended by that solution. *I used a socket extension and a one-to-two socket Y-adapter to stuff two of my Philips LED bulbs in that light, and for a total of 20W worth of LEDs the total light is perhaps slightly less than I would prefer if energy consumption was not a consideration at all but it is definitely superior in every way to the 40W CFL that I was previously using, most notably the ramp up time (it seems like the brighter the CFL, or if it is enclosed in a globe for outdoor use or decorative bath fixtures, the more likely the CFL is to have a noticeable and annoying ramp up.) *Combined with my third Philips LED bulb on a table lamp, the room is acceptably lit and it feels like a luxury to have a similar quality of light as I remember having as a kid before we worried about stuff like this. I thought about using the Y-adapter idea with two of the more common 13W CFLs because my guess was even that would have been a better solution than the 40W CFL but never actually got around to doing it. Remember once upon a time when it was recommended to use 150W bulbs or higher in a table lamp next to the chair you'd sit in to spend some quality time with a book to reduce eye strain? *I do... B: They will last long enough to recover your money. Has anyone seen any independent testing that supports b? It seems like they will... http://www.lightingprize.org/ http://www.lightingprize.org/60watttest.stm In June 2010, the next stage of evaluation began: long-term lumen maintenance testing. The 200 samples were sent to Pacific Northwest National Laboratory to be tested in a new high-temperature testing apparatus specifically designed for the L Prize competition and built with assistance from Orb Optronix. The test bed was maintained at 45°C to simulate actual operating conditions and the lamps were operated continuously. A movable integrating sphere (light measurement device) took spectral measurements on each lamp every 100 hours for the first 3,000 hours of operation, and every 168 hours (weekly) thereafter. Data for the first 7,000 hours of operation were used to predict lumen maintenance of the lamps at 25,000 hours. With 95 percent confidence, lumen maintenance is predicted to be 97.1 percent* at 25,000 hours, which significantly exceeds the 70 percent L Prize requirement. So apparently all samples were proven to last at least 7K hours without failure; it's apparently too soon to say whether they'll actually last 25K hours plus or not but it's not looking bad. I know it sounds like I'm really pushing these bulbs but I'm not affiliated with Philips or DoE in any way, I'm just a consumer who's discovered a product that I really like and am kind of excited about. *I wouldn't pay $50 for one of these bulbs, mostly because I don't have the money to be shelling out $50 for the equivalent of something that I can buy for $2 give or take (in the form of a traditional incandescent) but at $15 you can make the argument that it will save money on air conditioning and electrical power, plus then you don't have to feel the guilt of running big incandescents - not that I have in years; at my last house the only incandescents were in seldom used hallways and in the living room and kitchen where there were dimmer switches and I could not find any acceptable more efficient solution (and yes, I have to admit, I did feel somewhat guilty about those...) Yes, I hear you. If there is something that puts out the nice quality light that you can get from an incandescent, but uses a tiny amount of electricity, less heat, and lasts long enough for payback I'd be buying them...... There is another factor, which I learned from my experience with CFL. Let's say these last 10 or 15 years. A year or two from now, for whatever reason, one fails. With CFL by then they were different, that particular one was no longer available. So, you go to the store and you couldn't figure out, which if any of them would match the light, warm up time, etc of the ones you already had. Not a problem for a table lamp, but if you have 8 of them in recessed lights, at $15, it's a problem. It's gotten better as time goes on, but it's still like a science experiment when you need to get one that matches. |
Finally an alternative to incandescents?
Mitt Romley wrote:
On 4/26/2013 7:05 AM, Nate Nagel wrote: Forgot to add... the really amusing thing about this bulb is the packaging. Philips hits a home run with this product which will likely primarily appeal to eco-weenies and people who actually geek out over things like light bulbs... and yet the packaging is that awful heat sealed clamshell plastic, and about 3x as large as it needs to be. You can thank the democrats for today's clam-shell packaging. You see, lazy Democrats are used to free government handouts like free cell phones, free housing and of course the WIC program. But the government has failed them a bit. There is no free light bulb program so the lazy democraps have to go to Lowes Depot and steal them. LOL! It's hard to believe how wacko the rightards have gotten. |
Finally an alternative to incandescents?
On 04/26/2013 09:59 AM, wrote:
Yes, I hear you. If there is something that puts out the nice quality light that you can get from an incandescent, but uses a tiny amount of electricity, less heat, and lasts long enough for payback I'd be buying them...... There is another factor, which I learned from my experience with CFL. Let's say these last 10 or 15 years. A year or two from now, for whatever reason, one fails. With CFL by then they were different, that particular one was no longer available. So, you go to the store and you couldn't figure out, which if any of them would match the light, warm up time, etc of the ones you already had. Not a problem for a table lamp, but if you have 8 of them in recessed lights, at $15, it's a problem. It's gotten better as time goes on, but it's still like a science experiment when you need to get one that matches. Not a concern for me, as I don't have any can lights. But you do raise a valid point. To me, that's another good argument for geeking out and trying to find the best product that you can for the money (something that I've been accused of doing before, and certainly am guilty of in many cases.) nate -- replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel |
I think the biggest selling point of these LED bulbs is that they're dimmable, and they're instant-on like incandescents. You don't have to wait a minute for the light output to rise.
But, the economics are an uphill battle for them. Converting to CFL's was a no-brainer when they first came out because even at their $7 per bulb price tag, they'd save you 80% on your electricity, and that made them pay for themselves in a relatively short period of time. Now, unless there's a government subsidy involved, paying even $15 extra to save an additional 3 watts is economically difficult. In a house with 20 light bulbs, $300 is a lot of money to invest in them, whereas 60 watts isn't a lot of savings to justify the investment. It's not even economically attractive to replace incandescents with LED's when the option of replacing them with CFL's is open to you. I expect some people will buy these LED bulbs for dining rooms where they want the dimmability, but other than that the transition from CFL's to LED's is gonna be a slow one... until the price of LED bulbs drops to within a buck or two of CFLs. Unfortunately, the price won't drop until they start being mass produced, and that's not going to happen until they're economically competitive with CFL's and, except for a C-change in technology, that's not going to happen until the price drops. Your classic Catch-22. |
Finally an alternative to incandescents?
On 4/26/2013 7:05 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 04/26/2013 07:00 AM, Nate Nagel wrote: I've been interested in finding a more acceptable solution to indoor lighting than the usual spiral CFLs for a while now, yesterday I was researching LED light bulbs as I was actually repairing an outdoor post light (and am trying a 4W LED in it, although I don't think it's bright enough for the application) and found this: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips-1...0#BVRRWidgetID which is available at select (read: almost none) Home Depots but the secret is that if you can find them, they're apparently subsidized by local utilities or something to about $15 apiece, not the $50 listed on the web site. A store about 50 miles away from me had a stock of them however and I have a friend who works in that area so I imposed on him to get me a couple. I have a feeling I need more of these. They have a CRI of 92 (normal CFLs and most LEDs are in the 70-80 range) Surprisingly, HD does not even mention CRI at all in their description of this product although to me it's a bigger deal than the efficiency. However if you research the L-prize you'll find that a CRI of 90 was one of the conditions. They also turn on instantly, and are actually bright. Well, almost instantly - there's a very brief but noticable delay between flipping the switch and getting light. It's really the one way you can tell that you're not turning on an incandescent bulb but something more complicated and electronic. I remember when we didn't try to skimp on light bulb size and actually lit up a room, but since switching to CFLs it's hard to get enough light in some spaces. Two of these 10W bulbs are definitely brighter than the single 40W CFL with which I was trying to light up a difficult room (dark paneling, main lighting from a torchiere with a dark colored shade that reflects most of the light up, would have been acceptable with a 200+ watt 3-way incandescent which is what it was obviously designed for, but nothing else produced acceptable light) and there's none of that annoying brightness ramp-up that you get from CFLs. One thing that I have not tested with these bulbs is dimming ability. Supposedly it works, but some dimmers will buzz and hum. But if you don't have dimmers, don't have fully enclosed light fixtures, and don't mind (or can't see in your application) the odd shape/color of the bulb when unlit, there's really nothing at all I can find fault with. Best part - this bulb is actually assembled in the USA, and apparently the LEDs used are made in the USA as well! This may be old news for some as apparently they've been available @ HD at the discounted price for about a month now, but I figured this was worth posting because a) I don't go into HD that often and b) even if I did, none of the stores local to me carry this bulb so if I hadn't gone looking for it online I would not have known that it was actually available (and if someone hadn't mentioned to check the price, the $50 price listed on HD's web site would have put me off...) Hope this helps someone... nate Forgot to add... the really amusing thing about this bulb is the packaging. Philips hits a home run with this product which will likely primarily appeal to eco-weenies and people who actually geek out over things like light bulbs... and yet the packaging is that awful heat sealed clamshell plastic, and about 3x as large as it needs to be. I can't imagine any packaging more annoying, or, here's the ironic bit, less eco-friendly... nate Well, the plastic and cardboard are recyclable for those who care about that sort of thing. -- Bill In Hamptonburgh, NY In the original Orange County. Est. 1683 To email, remove the double zeros after @ |
Finally an alternative to incandescents?
Nate Nagel wrote: What $50 price? The link you provided to the HD website had them for $15. I just went back and clicked on my own link; the "online price" (except you can't even buy it online, it's a "store exclusive" product) is $49.97 each for me. Maybe HD is adjusting the pricing based on location? Perhaps in your location they are actually readily available in stores at the lower price? I have no idea... The electric utility price subsidies vary from state to state and sometimes even in different areas within a state. Some places will have no subsidies and some will have substantial ones. Find where the best ones are and make a day trip to buy your lamps on some other utility's dime :) |
Finally an alternative to incandescents?
nestork wrote: I think the biggest selling point of these LED bulbs is that they're dimmable, and they're instant-on like incandescents. You don't have to wait a minute for the light output to rise. But, the economics are an uphill battle for them. Converting to CFL's was a no-brainer when they first came out because even at their $7 per bulb price tag, they'd save you 80% on your electricity, and that made them pay for themselves in a relatively short period of time. Now, unless there's a government subsidy involved, paying even $15 extra to save an additional 3 watts is economically difficult. In a house with 20 light bulbs, $300 is a lot of money to invest in them, whereas 60 watts isn't a lot of savings to justify the investment. It's not even economically attractive to replace incandescents with LED's when the option of replacing them with CFL's is open to you. I expect some people will buy these LED bulbs for dining rooms where they want the dimmability, but other than that the transition from CFL's to LED's is gonna be a slow one... until the price of LED bulbs drops to within a buck or two of CFLs. Unfortunately, the price won't drop until they start being mass produced, and that's not going to happen until they're economically competitive with CFL's and, except for a C-change in technology, that's not going to happen until the price drops. Your classic Catch-22. -- nestork Remember that these LED lamps have 30,000+ hour life, so even compared to your old $1 incandescents with 750 hour life the cost isn't worse, it's just front loaded (30,000/750=40 i.e. 40 incandescents for the same span as 1 LED). So if you are paying even $40/lamp you are at break even just on lamp cost. The LG LEDs I'm using and quite happy with cost me $9ea so I'm way ahead on base lamp cost, and much further ahead on power savings as well as not having to replace them for a decade or two. |
Finally an alternative to incandescents?
On 04/26/2013 10:50 AM, willshak wrote:
On 4/26/2013 7:05 AM, Nate Nagel wrote: On 04/26/2013 07:00 AM, Nate Nagel wrote: I've been interested in finding a more acceptable solution to indoor lighting than the usual spiral CFLs for a while now, yesterday I was researching LED light bulbs as I was actually repairing an outdoor post light (and am trying a 4W LED in it, although I don't think it's bright enough for the application) and found this: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips-1...0#BVRRWidgetID which is available at select (read: almost none) Home Depots but the secret is that if you can find them, they're apparently subsidized by local utilities or something to about $15 apiece, not the $50 listed on the web site. A store about 50 miles away from me had a stock of them however and I have a friend who works in that area so I imposed on him to get me a couple. I have a feeling I need more of these. They have a CRI of 92 (normal CFLs and most LEDs are in the 70-80 range) Surprisingly, HD does not even mention CRI at all in their description of this product although to me it's a bigger deal than the efficiency. However if you research the L-prize you'll find that a CRI of 90 was one of the conditions. They also turn on instantly, and are actually bright. Well, almost instantly - there's a very brief but noticable delay between flipping the switch and getting light. It's really the one way you can tell that you're not turning on an incandescent bulb but something more complicated and electronic. I remember when we didn't try to skimp on light bulb size and actually lit up a room, but since switching to CFLs it's hard to get enough light in some spaces. Two of these 10W bulbs are definitely brighter than the single 40W CFL with which I was trying to light up a difficult room (dark paneling, main lighting from a torchiere with a dark colored shade that reflects most of the light up, would have been acceptable with a 200+ watt 3-way incandescent which is what it was obviously designed for, but nothing else produced acceptable light) and there's none of that annoying brightness ramp-up that you get from CFLs. One thing that I have not tested with these bulbs is dimming ability. Supposedly it works, but some dimmers will buzz and hum. But if you don't have dimmers, don't have fully enclosed light fixtures, and don't mind (or can't see in your application) the odd shape/color of the bulb when unlit, there's really nothing at all I can find fault with. Best part - this bulb is actually assembled in the USA, and apparently the LEDs used are made in the USA as well! This may be old news for some as apparently they've been available @ HD at the discounted price for about a month now, but I figured this was worth posting because a) I don't go into HD that often and b) even if I did, none of the stores local to me carry this bulb so if I hadn't gone looking for it online I would not have known that it was actually available (and if someone hadn't mentioned to check the price, the $50 price listed on HD's web site would have put me off...) Hope this helps someone... nate Forgot to add... the really amusing thing about this bulb is the packaging. Philips hits a home run with this product which will likely primarily appeal to eco-weenies and people who actually geek out over things like light bulbs... and yet the packaging is that awful heat sealed clamshell plastic, and about 3x as large as it needs to be. I can't imagine any packaging more annoying, or, here's the ironic bit, less eco-friendly... nate Well, the plastic and cardboard are recyclable for those who care about that sort of thing. Yabbut what would be so wrong with a simple folded cardboard box like regular old light bulbs have been sold in for ages? We've been recycling paper for a lot longer than we've been doing plastic, and not all areas have plastic recycling. nate -- replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel |
Finally an alternative to incandescents?
On 4/26/2013 7:05 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 04/26/2013 07:00 AM, Nate Nagel wrote: I've been interested in finding a more acceptable solution to indoor lighting than the usual spiral CFLs for a while now, yesterday I was researching LED light bulbs as I was actually repairing an outdoor post light (and am trying a 4W LED in it, although I don't think it's bright enough for the application) and found this: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips-1...0#BVRRWidgetID which is available at select (read: almost none) Home Depots but the secret is that if you can find them, they're apparently subsidized by local utilities or something to about $15 apiece, not the $50 listed on the web site. A store about 50 miles away from me had a stock of them however and I have a friend who works in that area so I imposed on him to get me a couple. I have a feeling I need more of these. They have a CRI of 92 (normal CFLs and most LEDs are in the 70-80 range) Surprisingly, HD does not even mention CRI at all in their description of this product although to me it's a bigger deal than the efficiency. However if you research the L-prize you'll find that a CRI of 90 was one of the conditions. They also turn on instantly, and are actually bright. Well, almost instantly - there's a very brief but noticable delay between flipping the switch and getting light. It's really the one way you can tell that you're not turning on an incandescent bulb but something more complicated and electronic. I remember when we didn't try to skimp on light bulb size and actually lit up a room, but since switching to CFLs it's hard to get enough light in some spaces. Two of these 10W bulbs are definitely brighter than the single 40W CFL with which I was trying to light up a difficult room (dark paneling, main lighting from a torchiere with a dark colored shade that reflects most of the light up, would have been acceptable with a 200+ watt 3-way incandescent which is what it was obviously designed for, but nothing else produced acceptable light) and there's none of that annoying brightness ramp-up that you get from CFLs. One thing that I have not tested with these bulbs is dimming ability. Supposedly it works, but some dimmers will buzz and hum. But if you don't have dimmers, don't have fully enclosed light fixtures, and don't mind (or can't see in your application) the odd shape/color of the bulb when unlit, there's really nothing at all I can find fault with. Best part - this bulb is actually assembled in the USA, and apparently the LEDs used are made in the USA as well! This may be old news for some as apparently they've been available @ HD at the discounted price for about a month now, but I figured this was worth posting because a) I don't go into HD that often and b) even if I did, none of the stores local to me carry this bulb so if I hadn't gone looking for it online I would not have known that it was actually available (and if someone hadn't mentioned to check the price, the $50 price listed on HD's web site would have put me off...) Hope this helps someone... nate Forgot to add... the really amusing thing about this bulb is the packaging. Philips hits a home run with this product which will likely primarily appeal to eco-weenies and people who actually geek out over things like light bulbs... and yet the packaging is that awful heat sealed clamshell plastic, and about 3x as large as it needs to be. I can't imagine any packaging more annoying, or, here's the ironic bit, less eco-friendly... nate I guess if you're paying $50 for a light bulb you want first class packaging. Anybody that does the math will know that CFL's are most cost efficient. |
Finally an alternative to incandescents?
Frank wrote: On 4/26/2013 7:05 AM, Nate Nagel wrote: On 04/26/2013 07:00 AM, Nate Nagel wrote: I've been interested in finding a more acceptable solution to indoor lighting than the usual spiral CFLs for a while now, yesterday I was researching LED light bulbs as I was actually repairing an outdoor post light (and am trying a 4W LED in it, although I don't think it's bright enough for the application) and found this: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips-1...0#BVRRWidgetID which is available at select (read: almost none) Home Depots but the secret is that if you can find them, they're apparently subsidized by local utilities or something to about $15 apiece, not the $50 listed on the web site. A store about 50 miles away from me had a stock of them however and I have a friend who works in that area so I imposed on him to get me a couple. I have a feeling I need more of these. They have a CRI of 92 (normal CFLs and most LEDs are in the 70-80 range) Surprisingly, HD does not even mention CRI at all in their description of this product although to me it's a bigger deal than the efficiency. However if you research the L-prize you'll find that a CRI of 90 was one of the conditions. They also turn on instantly, and are actually bright. Well, almost instantly - there's a very brief but noticable delay between flipping the switch and getting light. It's really the one way you can tell that you're not turning on an incandescent bulb but something more complicated and electronic. I remember when we didn't try to skimp on light bulb size and actually lit up a room, but since switching to CFLs it's hard to get enough light in some spaces. Two of these 10W bulbs are definitely brighter than the single 40W CFL with which I was trying to light up a difficult room (dark paneling, main lighting from a torchiere with a dark colored shade that reflects most of the light up, would have been acceptable with a 200+ watt 3-way incandescent which is what it was obviously designed for, but nothing else produced acceptable light) and there's none of that annoying brightness ramp-up that you get from CFLs. One thing that I have not tested with these bulbs is dimming ability. Supposedly it works, but some dimmers will buzz and hum. But if you don't have dimmers, don't have fully enclosed light fixtures, and don't mind (or can't see in your application) the odd shape/color of the bulb when unlit, there's really nothing at all I can find fault with. Best part - this bulb is actually assembled in the USA, and apparently the LEDs used are made in the USA as well! This may be old news for some as apparently they've been available @ HD at the discounted price for about a month now, but I figured this was worth posting because a) I don't go into HD that often and b) even if I did, none of the stores local to me carry this bulb so if I hadn't gone looking for it online I would not have known that it was actually available (and if someone hadn't mentioned to check the price, the $50 price listed on HD's web site would have put me off...) Hope this helps someone... nate Forgot to add... the really amusing thing about this bulb is the packaging. Philips hits a home run with this product which will likely primarily appeal to eco-weenies and people who actually geek out over things like light bulbs... and yet the packaging is that awful heat sealed clamshell plastic, and about 3x as large as it needs to be. I can't imagine any packaging more annoying, or, here's the ironic bit, less eco-friendly... nate I guess if you're paying $50 for a light bulb you want first class packaging. Anybody that does the math will know that CFL's are most cost efficient. You flubbed your math then. Assumptions: 40W equivalent lamps (what I have data handy for) Power $0.10/kWh Incandescent lamp $1 CFL lamp $3 LED lamp $10 (the $50 Phillips may be the latest, greatest, but most LEDs are a lot less expensive) Incandescent: $1 lamp, 750hr life, 40W power consumption = $0.0053 per hour ($1/750)+((40/1000)*$0.10) CFL: $3 lamp, 8,000hr life, 14W power consumption = $0.0018 per hour ($3/8000)+((14/1000)*$0.10) LED: $10 lamp, 30,000hr life, 7.5W power consumption = $0.0011 per hour ($10/30000)+((7.5/1000)*$0.10) So LED lamps are about 20% cheaper than CFL |
Finally an alternative to incandescents?
On 04/26/2013 10:45 AM, nestork wrote:
I think the biggest selling point of these LED bulbs is that they're dimmable, and they're instant-on like incandescents. You don't have to wait a minute for the light output to rise. But, the economics are an uphill battle for them. Converting to CFL's was a no-brainer when they first came out because even at their $7 per bulb price tag, they'd save you 80% on your electricity, and that made them pay for themselves in a relatively short period of time. Now, unless there's a government subsidy involved, paying even $15 extra to save an additional 3 watts is economically difficult. In a house with 20 light bulbs, $300 is a lot of money to invest in them, whereas 60 watts isn't a lot of savings to justify the investment. It's not even economically attractive to replace incandescents with LED's when the option of replacing them with CFL's is open to you. I expect some people will buy these LED bulbs for dining rooms where they want the dimmability, but other than that the transition from CFL's to LED's is gonna be a slow one... until the price of LED bulbs drops to within a buck or two of CFLs. Unfortunately, the price won't drop until they start being mass produced, and that's not going to happen until they're economically competitive with CFL's and, except for a C-change in technology, that's not going to happen until the price drops. Your classic Catch-22. BUT if I needed to purchase some sort of light, any light, with the only consideration being that it was going to go in an Edison base fixture, I wouldn't even consider CFLs anymore. My choice today would be between an incandescent and these new LEDs. The price difference between a CFL and the LEDs (at $15, anyway) is little enough that I'm willing to pay the extra for the luxury of not being annoyed at the CFL every time I turn it on. nate -- replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel |
Finally an alternative to incandescents?
On 2013-04-26, Nate Nagel wrote:
I've been interested in finding a more acceptable solution to indoor lighting than the usual spiral CFLs...... Check this guy out (EE): http://tinyurl.com/d4qgzao He used some Cree solid state single LED bulbs to make a light strip. Looks like it works pretty good. nb |
Finally an alternative to incandescents?
On Fri, 26 Apr 2013 11:12:25 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote: nestork wrote: I think the biggest selling point of these LED bulbs is that they're dimmable, and they're instant-on like incandescents. You don't have to wait a minute for the light output to rise. But, the economics are an uphill battle for them. Converting to CFL's was a no-brainer when they first came out because even at their $7 per bulb price tag, they'd save you 80% on your electricity, and that made them pay for themselves in a relatively short period of time. Now, unless there's a government subsidy involved, paying even $15 extra to save an additional 3 watts is economically difficult. In a house with 20 light bulbs, $300 is a lot of money to invest in them, whereas 60 watts isn't a lot of savings to justify the investment. It's not even economically attractive to replace incandescents with LED's when the option of replacing them with CFL's is open to you. I expect some people will buy these LED bulbs for dining rooms where they want the dimmability, but other than that the transition from CFL's to LED's is gonna be a slow one... until the price of LED bulbs drops to within a buck or two of CFLs. Unfortunately, the price won't drop until they start being mass produced, and that's not going to happen until they're economically competitive with CFL's and, except for a C-change in technology, that's not going to happen until the price drops. Your classic Catch-22. -- nestork Remember that these LED lamps have 30,000+ hour life, so even compared to your old $1 incandescents with 750 hour life the cost isn't worse, it's just front loaded (30,000/750=40 i.e. 40 incandescents for the same span as 1 LED). So if you are paying even $40/lamp you are at break even just on lamp cost. The LG LEDs I'm using and quite happy with cost me $9ea so I'm way ahead on base lamp cost, and much further ahead on power savings as well as not having to replace them for a decade or two. Tell me that after your LED lamps have 30,000 hours on them. IOW, bull****! |
Finally an alternative to incandescents?
On Fri, 26 Apr 2013 12:24:54 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote: On 04/26/2013 10:45 AM, nestork wrote: I think the biggest selling point of these LED bulbs is that they're dimmable, and they're instant-on like incandescents. You don't have to wait a minute for the light output to rise. But, the economics are an uphill battle for them. Converting to CFL's was a no-brainer when they first came out because even at their $7 per bulb price tag, they'd save you 80% on your electricity, and that made them pay for themselves in a relatively short period of time. Now, unless there's a government subsidy involved, paying even $15 extra to save an additional 3 watts is economically difficult. In a house with 20 light bulbs, $300 is a lot of money to invest in them, whereas 60 watts isn't a lot of savings to justify the investment. It's not even economically attractive to replace incandescents with LED's when the option of replacing them with CFL's is open to you. I expect some people will buy these LED bulbs for dining rooms where they want the dimmability, but other than that the transition from CFL's to LED's is gonna be a slow one... until the price of LED bulbs drops to within a buck or two of CFLs. Unfortunately, the price won't drop until they start being mass produced, and that's not going to happen until they're economically competitive with CFL's and, except for a C-change in technology, that's not going to happen until the price drops. Your classic Catch-22. BUT if I needed to purchase some sort of light, any light, with the only consideration being that it was going to go in an Edison base fixture, I wouldn't even consider CFLs anymore. My choice today would be between an incandescent and these new LEDs. The price difference between a CFL and the LEDs (at $15, anyway) is little enough that I'm willing to pay the extra for the luxury of not being annoyed at the CFL every time I turn it on. THe only place I have CFLs is in the unfinished basement, where 1) I don't care what how the light looks. 2) I don't care about the absurdly long warm-up. Much. 3) The lights may stay on for more than an hour a day so there might be some energy to save. 4) Haven't gotten the T8s wired in yet. |
Finally an alternative to incandescents?
replying to Nate Nagel , DA wrote:
njnagel wrote: I just went back and clicked on my own link; the "online price" (except you can't even buy it online, it's a "store exclusive" product) is $49.97 each for me. Maybe HD is adjusting the pricing based on location? Perhaps in your location they are actually readily available in stores at the lower price? I have no idea... Same thing happens he I select my PA local HD - $49.97, my NJ work location (35 miles away) HD - $14.97 Sounds like a profitable business can be started to haul LED bulbs across the Delaware river :) -- /\_/\ ((@v@)) NIGHT ():::() OWL VV-VV -- posted from http://www.homeownershub.com/mainten...ts-746084-.htm using HomeOwnersHub's Web, RSS and Social Media Interface to home and garden related groups |
Finally an alternative to incandescents?
|
Finally an alternative to incandescents?
|
Finally an alternative to incandescents?
DA wrote: replying to Nate Nagel , DA wrote: njnagel wrote: I just went back and clicked on my own link; the "online price" (except you can't even buy it online, it's a "store exclusive" product) is $49.97 each for me. Maybe HD is adjusting the pricing based on location? Perhaps in your location they are actually readily available in stores at the lower price? I have no idea... Same thing happens he I select my PA local HD - $49.97, my NJ work location (35 miles away) HD - $14.97 Sounds like a profitable business can be started to haul LED bulbs across the Delaware river :) A business doing that would seem likely to get you in trouble, but a drive over to pay cash for a batch for yourself would seem a good idea. |
Finally an alternative to incandescents?
the oversized clear plastic packaging you hurt yourself trying to open
is all about making it impossible to shoplift I will try to find one for my pole light, its on a light sensor which blows CFLs because its a realtive of a dimmer:( Converting to CFLs made my electric bill drop noticeably:) |
Finally an alternative to incandescents?
On 04/26/2013 12:45 PM, Pete C. wrote:
wrote: On Fri, 26 Apr 2013 11:12:25 -0500, "Pete C." wrote: nestork wrote: I think the biggest selling point of these LED bulbs is that they're dimmable, and they're instant-on like incandescents. You don't have to wait a minute for the light output to rise. But, the economics are an uphill battle for them. Converting to CFL's was a no-brainer when they first came out because even at their $7 per bulb price tag, they'd save you 80% on your electricity, and that made them pay for themselves in a relatively short period of time. Now, unless there's a government subsidy involved, paying even $15 extra to save an additional 3 watts is economically difficult. In a house with 20 light bulbs, $300 is a lot of money to invest in them, whereas 60 watts isn't a lot of savings to justify the investment. It's not even economically attractive to replace incandescents with LED's when the option of replacing them with CFL's is open to you. I expect some people will buy these LED bulbs for dining rooms where they want the dimmability, but other than that the transition from CFL's to LED's is gonna be a slow one... until the price of LED bulbs drops to within a buck or two of CFLs. Unfortunately, the price won't drop until they start being mass produced, and that's not going to happen until they're economically competitive with CFL's and, except for a C-change in technology, that's not going to happen until the price drops. Your classic Catch-22. -- nestork Remember that these LED lamps have 30,000+ hour life, so even compared to your old $1 incandescents with 750 hour life the cost isn't worse, it's just front loaded (30,000/750=40 i.e. 40 incandescents for the same span as 1 LED). So if you are paying even $40/lamp you are at break even just on lamp cost. The LG LEDs I'm using and quite happy with cost me $9ea so I'm way ahead on base lamp cost, and much further ahead on power savings as well as not having to replace them for a decade or two. Tell me that after your LED lamps have 30,000 hours on them. IOW, bull****! There are decades of supporting data for 30,000hr LED life. LEDs are not remotely new technology and they are well studied. Much like CFLs I'd be suspicious that the electronics in the base are going to go Tango Uniform before the actual light emitting bits wear out. This is another reason that I'm partial to the "L-prize" bulbs because they would have had to have been built with better-than-bargain-basement components to make it through testing. Again, I wouldn't pay $50 for one but $15 for what appears to be the Cadillac (well, that's an old school comparison, perhaps Lexus or Benz?) of light bulbs seems like a good deal. This teardown appears to support that reasoning (yes, I'm totally geeking out on light bulbs today) http://www.molalla.net/members/leepe...ize%20bulb.htm nate -- replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel |
Finally an alternative to incandescents?
On 04/26/2013 12:50 PM, Pete C. wrote:
wrote: On Fri, 26 Apr 2013 12:24:54 -0400, Nate Nagel wrote: On 04/26/2013 10:45 AM, nestork wrote: I think the biggest selling point of these LED bulbs is that they're dimmable, and they're instant-on like incandescents. You don't have to wait a minute for the light output to rise. But, the economics are an uphill battle for them. Converting to CFL's was a no-brainer when they first came out because even at their $7 per bulb price tag, they'd save you 80% on your electricity, and that made them pay for themselves in a relatively short period of time. Now, unless there's a government subsidy involved, paying even $15 extra to save an additional 3 watts is economically difficult. In a house with 20 light bulbs, $300 is a lot of money to invest in them, whereas 60 watts isn't a lot of savings to justify the investment. It's not even economically attractive to replace incandescents with LED's when the option of replacing them with CFL's is open to you. I expect some people will buy these LED bulbs for dining rooms where they want the dimmability, but other than that the transition from CFL's to LED's is gonna be a slow one... until the price of LED bulbs drops to within a buck or two of CFLs. Unfortunately, the price won't drop until they start being mass produced, and that's not going to happen until they're economically competitive with CFL's and, except for a C-change in technology, that's not going to happen until the price drops. Your classic Catch-22. BUT if I needed to purchase some sort of light, any light, with the only consideration being that it was going to go in an Edison base fixture, I wouldn't even consider CFLs anymore. My choice today would be between an incandescent and these new LEDs. The price difference between a CFL and the LEDs (at $15, anyway) is little enough that I'm willing to pay the extra for the luxury of not being annoyed at the CFL every time I turn it on. THe only place I have CFLs is in the unfinished basement, where 1) I don't care what how the light looks. 2) I don't care about the absurdly long warm-up. Much. 3) The lights may stay on for more than an hour a day so there might be some energy to save. 4) Haven't gotten the T8s wired in yet. #1 was resolved years ago. Current CFLs have good color temp and CRI. Which ones? Subjectively, I don't like them, and objectively I haven't seen any commonly available with CRIs listed significantly 80 (and most don't list it at all) #2 seems to only apply to encapsulated CFLs, not a single one of the open spiral CFLs I've used has a warmup time over a second or so after it's initial couple hours of burn-in. The bigger the CFL the longer the warm up time it seems... which means if you have an older house with older fixtures that were designed for adequate lighting with 60W bulbs or greater then you'll be annoyed by the warm up time. You're right, you can get a 13W CFL that isn't *too* annoying, but if you need more power than that out of a single "bulb" then the ramp up is back... I guess where my frustration with CFLs stems from is a desire *not* to replace old light fixtures with newer ones using fluorescent tubes or multiple CFLs (what can I say, I like old stuff) #3 there is energy to save regardless of daily run time. If your sub hour a day run time saves #0.03 that's still a savings. Total lamp lifetime savings is still the same, it just takes longer to accumulate. #4 I use all 4' T8 fixtures in my shop and I'm pretty happy with them. LEDs would save more power, but it would take more fixtures to get the same coverage as a cheap dual 4' T8 fixture. Yeah, T8 or T12 shop lights are hard to beat for illumination. The CRI may not be the greatest but they're head and shoulders above CFLs in lampholders for sheer illumination and the CRI is likely better too - and 4' T8s are available in tons of different color temps etc. as for years they've been the standard for commercial illumination. I ended up using them in the whole basement of my last place; two troffers in the "man cave" area that had a drop ceiling, and shop lights in the laundry room. nate -- replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel |
Finally an alternative to incandescents?
On 04/26/2013 12:57 PM, bob haller wrote:
the oversized clear plastic packaging you hurt yourself trying to open is all about making it impossible to shoplift I will try to find one for my pole light, its on a light sensor which blows CFLs because its a realtive of a dimmer:( Converting to CFLs made my electric bill drop noticeably:) It might look kinda goofy in a pole light during the daytime... as I said before this whole geekery started after buying a 4W "flame" LED bulb at Lowes (Utilitech Pro brand) it works in the pole light but doesn't really light up the driveway completely; I was looking to see if there were any higher lumen ones available (not for an affordable price) and that's when I came across the $15 good Philips bulbs @ HD. Maybe one of the 40W equivalent Crees would be the ticket? They're not particularly decorative but they are more like a traditional frosted light bulb in appearance and you don't really care about CRI as much in a pole light as you would indoors. Unless you want to advertise to the world that you geek out on stuff like LED bulbs, in which case by all means get the Philips (although I think the older ones with the silver fluted base and orange remote phosphor panels look even cooler G) nate -- replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel |
Finally an alternative to incandescents?
On 4/26/2013 12:24 PM, Pete C. wrote:
Frank wrote: On 4/26/2013 7:05 AM, Nate Nagel wrote: On 04/26/2013 07:00 AM, Nate Nagel wrote: I've been interested in finding a more acceptable solution to indoor lighting than the usual spiral CFLs for a while now, yesterday I was researching LED light bulbs as I was actually repairing an outdoor post light (and am trying a 4W LED in it, although I don't think it's bright enough for the application) and found this: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips-1...0#BVRRWidgetID which is available at select (read: almost none) Home Depots but the secret is that if you can find them, they're apparently subsidized by local utilities or something to about $15 apiece, not the $50 listed on the web site. A store about 50 miles away from me had a stock of them however and I have a friend who works in that area so I imposed on him to get me a couple. I have a feeling I need more of these. They have a CRI of 92 (normal CFLs and most LEDs are in the 70-80 range) Surprisingly, HD does not even mention CRI at all in their description of this product although to me it's a bigger deal than the efficiency. However if you research the L-prize you'll find that a CRI of 90 was one of the conditions. They also turn on instantly, and are actually bright. Well, almost instantly - there's a very brief but noticable delay between flipping the switch and getting light. It's really the one way you can tell that you're not turning on an incandescent bulb but something more complicated and electronic. I remember when we didn't try to skimp on light bulb size and actually lit up a room, but since switching to CFLs it's hard to get enough light in some spaces. Two of these 10W bulbs are definitely brighter than the single 40W CFL with which I was trying to light up a difficult room (dark paneling, main lighting from a torchiere with a dark colored shade that reflects most of the light up, would have been acceptable with a 200+ watt 3-way incandescent which is what it was obviously designed for, but nothing else produced acceptable light) and there's none of that annoying brightness ramp-up that you get from CFLs. One thing that I have not tested with these bulbs is dimming ability. Supposedly it works, but some dimmers will buzz and hum. But if you don't have dimmers, don't have fully enclosed light fixtures, and don't mind (or can't see in your application) the odd shape/color of the bulb when unlit, there's really nothing at all I can find fault with. Best part - this bulb is actually assembled in the USA, and apparently the LEDs used are made in the USA as well! This may be old news for some as apparently they've been available @ HD at the discounted price for about a month now, but I figured this was worth posting because a) I don't go into HD that often and b) even if I did, none of the stores local to me carry this bulb so if I hadn't gone looking for it online I would not have known that it was actually available (and if someone hadn't mentioned to check the price, the $50 price listed on HD's web site would have put me off...) Hope this helps someone... nate Forgot to add... the really amusing thing about this bulb is the packaging. Philips hits a home run with this product which will likely primarily appeal to eco-weenies and people who actually geek out over things like light bulbs... and yet the packaging is that awful heat sealed clamshell plastic, and about 3x as large as it needs to be. I can't imagine any packaging more annoying, or, here's the ironic bit, less eco-friendly... nate I guess if you're paying $50 for a light bulb you want first class packaging. Anybody that does the math will know that CFL's are most cost efficient. You flubbed your math then. Assumptions: 40W equivalent lamps (what I have data handy for) Power $0.10/kWh Incandescent lamp $1 CFL lamp $3 LED lamp $10 (the $50 Phillips may be the latest, greatest, but most LEDs are a lot less expensive) Incandescent: $1 lamp, 750hr life, 40W power consumption = $0.0053 per hour ($1/750)+((40/1000)*$0.10) CFL: $3 lamp, 8,000hr life, 14W power consumption = $0.0018 per hour ($3/8000)+((14/1000)*$0.10) LED: $10 lamp, 30,000hr life, 7.5W power consumption = $0.0011 per hour ($10/30000)+((7.5/1000)*$0.10) So LED lamps are about 20% cheaper than CFL I did not do the math but the Phillips lamp, and that's what I addressed, is 10 watts and costs $50. I'm not taking time to do math again. You can do it but off hand I'll bet its more expensive. I'd buy the 60 watt equivalent $10 LED bulb if I knew where to get it. Slight change in subject but I think home lighting requirements only takes up about 14% of your total electric bill so improved lights are just chasing diminishing return on investment. |
Finally an alternative to incandescents?
On 04/26/2013 02:00 PM, Frank wrote:
On 4/26/2013 12:24 PM, Pete C. wrote: Frank wrote: On 4/26/2013 7:05 AM, Nate Nagel wrote: On 04/26/2013 07:00 AM, Nate Nagel wrote: I've been interested in finding a more acceptable solution to indoor lighting than the usual spiral CFLs for a while now, yesterday I was researching LED light bulbs as I was actually repairing an outdoor post light (and am trying a 4W LED in it, although I don't think it's bright enough for the application) and found this: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips-1...0#BVRRWidgetID which is available at select (read: almost none) Home Depots but the secret is that if you can find them, they're apparently subsidized by local utilities or something to about $15 apiece, not the $50 listed on the web site. A store about 50 miles away from me had a stock of them however and I have a friend who works in that area so I imposed on him to get me a couple. I have a feeling I need more of these. They have a CRI of 92 (normal CFLs and most LEDs are in the 70-80 range) Surprisingly, HD does not even mention CRI at all in their description of this product although to me it's a bigger deal than the efficiency. However if you research the L-prize you'll find that a CRI of 90 was one of the conditions. They also turn on instantly, and are actually bright. Well, almost instantly - there's a very brief but noticable delay between flipping the switch and getting light. It's really the one way you can tell that you're not turning on an incandescent bulb but something more complicated and electronic. I remember when we didn't try to skimp on light bulb size and actually lit up a room, but since switching to CFLs it's hard to get enough light in some spaces. Two of these 10W bulbs are definitely brighter than the single 40W CFL with which I was trying to light up a difficult room (dark paneling, main lighting from a torchiere with a dark colored shade that reflects most of the light up, would have been acceptable with a 200+ watt 3-way incandescent which is what it was obviously designed for, but nothing else produced acceptable light) and there's none of that annoying brightness ramp-up that you get from CFLs. One thing that I have not tested with these bulbs is dimming ability. Supposedly it works, but some dimmers will buzz and hum. But if you don't have dimmers, don't have fully enclosed light fixtures, and don't mind (or can't see in your application) the odd shape/color of the bulb when unlit, there's really nothing at all I can find fault with. Best part - this bulb is actually assembled in the USA, and apparently the LEDs used are made in the USA as well! This may be old news for some as apparently they've been available @ HD at the discounted price for about a month now, but I figured this was worth posting because a) I don't go into HD that often and b) even if I did, none of the stores local to me carry this bulb so if I hadn't gone looking for it online I would not have known that it was actually available (and if someone hadn't mentioned to check the price, the $50 price listed on HD's web site would have put me off...) Hope this helps someone... nate Forgot to add... the really amusing thing about this bulb is the packaging. Philips hits a home run with this product which will likely primarily appeal to eco-weenies and people who actually geek out over things like light bulbs... and yet the packaging is that awful heat sealed clamshell plastic, and about 3x as large as it needs to be. I can't imagine any packaging more annoying, or, here's the ironic bit, less eco-friendly... nate I guess if you're paying $50 for a light bulb you want first class packaging. Anybody that does the math will know that CFL's are most cost efficient. You flubbed your math then. Assumptions: 40W equivalent lamps (what I have data handy for) Power $0.10/kWh Incandescent lamp $1 CFL lamp $3 LED lamp $10 (the $50 Phillips may be the latest, greatest, but most LEDs are a lot less expensive) Incandescent: $1 lamp, 750hr life, 40W power consumption = $0.0053 per hour ($1/750)+((40/1000)*$0.10) CFL: $3 lamp, 8,000hr life, 14W power consumption = $0.0018 per hour ($3/8000)+((14/1000)*$0.10) LED: $10 lamp, 30,000hr life, 7.5W power consumption = $0.0011 per hour ($10/30000)+((7.5/1000)*$0.10) So LED lamps are about 20% cheaper than CFL I did not do the math but the Phillips lamp, and that's what I addressed, is 10 watts and costs $50. I'm not taking time to do math again. You can do it but off hand I'll bet its more expensive. I'd buy the 60 watt equivalent $10 LED bulb if I knew where to get it. The Cree 9.5W/800 lumen (advertised as "60W equivalent" although this seems to be a little reminiscent of CFL advertising where you give up 50-100 lumens relative to a traditional incandescent) ones apparently are readily available in the HD stores that aren't selling the Philips L-Prize bulbs. The Cree ones are $13 in my area and I apparently wouldn't have any trouble getting them. I specifically sought out the Philips bulbs because of the higher CRI and the "made in the USA" factor, and the $2 difference (everywhere that I've actually been able to find them for sale, they're $15 not $50; online at Amazon now, if you're not close to a store selling them, they're about $30 BTW) isn't going to kill me. The higher light output and greater efficiency is nice too. Not that Cree makes a bad product - as I said in a previous post, there are applications where it might make sense to use them, e.g. where the bulb is exposed and you are trying to maintain the appearance of a traditional frosted bulb. I've got several flashlights using Cree LEDs and they're great; I think I've replaced one pair of batteries in one of three flashlights after several years of ownership and use (and all are still working fine.) If the Philips didn't exist I'd probably be trying a few of the Cree bulbs now. As an aside, Cree is apparently where it's at for can lights now. They have several models of downlights with a CRI of 90 or greater but for whatever reason their "light bulbs" have a lower CRI. So Philips for bulbs, but Cree for can lights. Slight change in subject but I think home lighting requirements only takes up about 14% of your total electric bill so improved lights are just chasing diminishing return on investment. I didn't even bother to fact check that statement but keep in mind that going from incandescent to CFL or LED will reduce the heat load on your A/C as well, if you live in an area that requires primarily cooling rather than heating (and I do) Also, is that 14% assuming incandescents or CFLs? If the latter, then using incandescents would change lighting to a significant fraction of the total power used. nate -- replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel |
Finally an alternative to incandescents?
Nate Nagel wrote: On 04/26/2013 12:50 PM, Pete C. wrote: wrote: On Fri, 26 Apr 2013 12:24:54 -0400, Nate Nagel wrote: On 04/26/2013 10:45 AM, nestork wrote: I think the biggest selling point of these LED bulbs is that they're dimmable, and they're instant-on like incandescents. You don't have to wait a minute for the light output to rise. But, the economics are an uphill battle for them. Converting to CFL's was a no-brainer when they first came out because even at their $7 per bulb price tag, they'd save you 80% on your electricity, and that made them pay for themselves in a relatively short period of time. Now, unless there's a government subsidy involved, paying even $15 extra to save an additional 3 watts is economically difficult. In a house with 20 light bulbs, $300 is a lot of money to invest in them, whereas 60 watts isn't a lot of savings to justify the investment. It's not even economically attractive to replace incandescents with LED's when the option of replacing them with CFL's is open to you. I expect some people will buy these LED bulbs for dining rooms where they want the dimmability, but other than that the transition from CFL's to LED's is gonna be a slow one... until the price of LED bulbs drops to within a buck or two of CFLs. Unfortunately, the price won't drop until they start being mass produced, and that's not going to happen until they're economically competitive with CFL's and, except for a C-change in technology, that's not going to happen until the price drops. Your classic Catch-22. BUT if I needed to purchase some sort of light, any light, with the only consideration being that it was going to go in an Edison base fixture, I wouldn't even consider CFLs anymore. My choice today would be between an incandescent and these new LEDs. The price difference between a CFL and the LEDs (at $15, anyway) is little enough that I'm willing to pay the extra for the luxury of not being annoyed at the CFL every time I turn it on. THe only place I have CFLs is in the unfinished basement, where 1) I don't care what how the light looks. 2) I don't care about the absurdly long warm-up. Much. 3) The lights may stay on for more than an hour a day so there might be some energy to save. 4) Haven't gotten the T8s wired in yet. #1 was resolved years ago. Current CFLs have good color temp and CRI. Which ones? Subjectively, I don't like them, and objectively I haven't seen any commonly available with CRIs listed significantly 80 (and most don't list it at all) The 7.5W 40W equiv. LG lamps I've been using for about a year. I have absolutely no issues with their light quality. They have two color temp versions available also. #2 seems to only apply to encapsulated CFLs, not a single one of the open spiral CFLs I've used has a warmup time over a second or so after it's initial couple hours of burn-in. The bigger the CFL the longer the warm up time it seems... which means if you have an older house with older fixtures that were designed for adequate lighting with 60W bulbs or greater then you'll be annoyed by the warm up time. You're right, you can get a 13W CFL that isn't *too* annoying, but if you need more power than that out of a single "bulb" then the ramp up is back... I guess where my frustration with CFLs stems from is a desire *not* to replace old light fixtures with newer ones using fluorescent tubes or multiple CFLs (what can I say, I like old stuff) I use a bunch of higher power CFLs, the 23W+ versions. I put them in the cheap clip on reflector fixtures and use them for work lights where I used to use 500W halogen. I don't see any notable warmup times on those unless I'm using them outside in really cold weather. I've also *gasp* used 23W CFLs in enclosed fixtures with no meltdowns and still 4+ years of service life. #3 there is energy to save regardless of daily run time. If your sub hour a day run time saves #0.03 that's still a savings. Total lamp lifetime savings is still the same, it just takes longer to accumulate. #4 I use all 4' T8 fixtures in my shop and I'm pretty happy with them. LEDs would save more power, but it would take more fixtures to get the same coverage as a cheap dual 4' T8 fixture. Yeah, T8 or T12 shop lights are hard to beat for illumination. The CRI may not be the greatest but they're head and shoulders above CFLs in lampholders for sheer illumination and the CRI is likely better too - and 4' T8s are available in tons of different color temps etc. as for years they've been the standard for commercial illumination. I ended up using them in the whole basement of my last place; two troffers in the "man cave" area that had a drop ceiling, and shop lights in the laundry room. The total light output isn't hard to replace with LEDs, but the light distribution from a 4' two tube T8 is difficult to match. |
Finally an alternative to incandescents?
On Fri, 26 Apr 2013 11:24:26 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote: Frank wrote: On 4/26/2013 7:05 AM, Nate Nagel wrote: On 04/26/2013 07:00 AM, Nate Nagel wrote: I've been interested in finding a more acceptable solution to indoor lighting than the usual spiral CFLs for a while now, yesterday I was researching LED light bulbs as I was actually repairing an outdoor post light (and am trying a 4W LED in it, although I don't think it's bright enough for the application) and found this: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips-1...0#BVRRWidgetID which is available at select (read: almost none) Home Depots but the secret is that if you can find them, they're apparently subsidized by local utilities or something to about $15 apiece, not the $50 listed on the web site. A store about 50 miles away from me had a stock of them however and I have a friend who works in that area so I imposed on him to get me a couple. I have a feeling I need more of these. They have a CRI of 92 (normal CFLs and most LEDs are in the 70-80 range) Surprisingly, HD does not even mention CRI at all in their description of this product although to me it's a bigger deal than the efficiency. However if you research the L-prize you'll find that a CRI of 90 was one of the conditions. They also turn on instantly, and are actually bright. Well, almost instantly - there's a very brief but noticable delay between flipping the switch and getting light. It's really the one way you can tell that you're not turning on an incandescent bulb but something more complicated and electronic. I remember when we didn't try to skimp on light bulb size and actually lit up a room, but since switching to CFLs it's hard to get enough light in some spaces. Two of these 10W bulbs are definitely brighter than the single 40W CFL with which I was trying to light up a difficult room (dark paneling, main lighting from a torchiere with a dark colored shade that reflects most of the light up, would have been acceptable with a 200+ watt 3-way incandescent which is what it was obviously designed for, but nothing else produced acceptable light) and there's none of that annoying brightness ramp-up that you get from CFLs. One thing that I have not tested with these bulbs is dimming ability. Supposedly it works, but some dimmers will buzz and hum. But if you don't have dimmers, don't have fully enclosed light fixtures, and don't mind (or can't see in your application) the odd shape/color of the bulb when unlit, there's really nothing at all I can find fault with. Best part - this bulb is actually assembled in the USA, and apparently the LEDs used are made in the USA as well! This may be old news for some as apparently they've been available @ HD at the discounted price for about a month now, but I figured this was worth posting because a) I don't go into HD that often and b) even if I did, none of the stores local to me carry this bulb so if I hadn't gone looking for it online I would not have known that it was actually available (and if someone hadn't mentioned to check the price, the $50 price listed on HD's web site would have put me off...) Hope this helps someone... nate Forgot to add... the really amusing thing about this bulb is the packaging. Philips hits a home run with this product which will likely primarily appeal to eco-weenies and people who actually geek out over things like light bulbs... and yet the packaging is that awful heat sealed clamshell plastic, and about 3x as large as it needs to be. I can't imagine any packaging more annoying, or, here's the ironic bit, less eco-friendly... nate I guess if you're paying $50 for a light bulb you want first class packaging. Anybody that does the math will know that CFL's are most cost efficient. You flubbed your math then. Assumptions: 40W equivalent lamps (what I have data handy for) Power $0.10/kWh Incandescent lamp $1 CFL lamp $3 LED lamp $10 (the $50 Phillips may be the latest, greatest, but most LEDs are a lot less expensive) Incandescent: $1 lamp, 750hr life, 40W power consumption = $0.0053 per hour ($1/750)+((40/1000)*$0.10) CFL: $3 lamp, 8,000hr life, 14W power consumption = $0.0018 per hour ($3/8000)+((14/1000)*$0.10) LED: $10 lamp, 30,000hr life, 7.5W power consumption = $0.0011 per hour ($10/30000)+((7.5/1000)*$0.10) So LED lamps are about 20% cheaper than CFL IFF you believe the absurd claims of 30K Hrs. |
Finally an alternative to incandescents?
On Fri, 26 Apr 2013 07:00:53 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips-1...0#BVRRWidgetID which is available at select (read: almost none) Home Depots but the Well, they have two at an HD on the other side of town and none in 5 stores near that other one. For some reason HD thinks I live on the other side of town, even t hough other websites like weather know where I live. Hmmm. It has 32 in stock at the store nearesst me. Are you saying I should buy some?? I wonder how many would be good. And out of stock at 4 stores near that one. After I kept going, I found 4 stores out of agroup of 6 which said Item not sold at this store. Plus about 14 earlier stores which had at least two, 1 that had one, and 10 earlier additional stores that were out of them. secret is that if you can find them, they're apparently subsidized by local utilities or something to about $15 apiece, not the $50 listed on the web site. It says 14.99 now. A store about 50 miles away from me had a stock of them however and I have a friend who works in that area so I imposed on him to get me a couple. |
Finally an alternative to incandescents?
On Fri, 26 Apr 2013 07:05:06 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote: Forgot to add... the really amusing thing about this bulb is the packaging. Philips hits a home run with this product which will likely primarily appeal to eco-weenies and people who actually geek out over things like light bulbs... and yet the packaging is that awful heat sealed clamshell plastic, and about 3x as large as it needs to be. I Designed to make shop-lifting harder. can't imagine any packaging more annoying, or, here's the ironic bit, less eco-friendly... nate |
Finally an alternative to incandescents?
On Fri, 26 Apr 2013 11:45:17 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote: wrote: On Fri, 26 Apr 2013 11:12:25 -0500, "Pete C." wrote: nestork wrote: I think the biggest selling point of these LED bulbs is that they're dimmable, and they're instant-on like incandescents. You don't have to wait a minute for the light output to rise. But, the economics are an uphill battle for them. Converting to CFL's was a no-brainer when they first came out because even at their $7 per bulb price tag, they'd save you 80% on your electricity, and that made them pay for themselves in a relatively short period of time. Now, unless there's a government subsidy involved, paying even $15 extra to save an additional 3 watts is economically difficult. In a house with 20 light bulbs, $300 is a lot of money to invest in them, whereas 60 watts isn't a lot of savings to justify the investment. It's not even economically attractive to replace incandescents with LED's when the option of replacing them with CFL's is open to you. I expect some people will buy these LED bulbs for dining rooms where they want the dimmability, but other than that the transition from CFL's to LED's is gonna be a slow one... until the price of LED bulbs drops to within a buck or two of CFLs. Unfortunately, the price won't drop until they start being mass produced, and that's not going to happen until they're economically competitive with CFL's and, except for a C-change in technology, that's not going to happen until the price drops. Your classic Catch-22. -- nestork Remember that these LED lamps have 30,000+ hour life, so even compared to your old $1 incandescents with 750 hour life the cost isn't worse, it's just front loaded (30,000/750=40 i.e. 40 incandescents for the same span as 1 LED). So if you are paying even $40/lamp you are at break even just on lamp cost. The LG LEDs I'm using and quite happy with cost me $9ea so I'm way ahead on base lamp cost, and much further ahead on power savings as well as not having to replace them for a decade or two. Tell me that after your LED lamps have 30,000 hours on them. IOW, bull****! There are decades of supporting data for 30,000hr LED life. LEDs are not remotely new technology and they are well studied. Utter bull****. The LEDs themselves, if cooled to the datgasheet numbers (probably 25C) will last 30KPOH but NOT as they're used in crap appliances. Let me know when yours actually last that long. |
Finally an alternative to incandescents?
On Fri, 26 Apr 2013 11:50:48 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote: wrote: On Fri, 26 Apr 2013 12:24:54 -0400, Nate Nagel wrote: On 04/26/2013 10:45 AM, nestork wrote: I think the biggest selling point of these LED bulbs is that they're dimmable, and they're instant-on like incandescents. You don't have to wait a minute for the light output to rise. But, the economics are an uphill battle for them. Converting to CFL's was a no-brainer when they first came out because even at their $7 per bulb price tag, they'd save you 80% on your electricity, and that made them pay for themselves in a relatively short period of time. Now, unless there's a government subsidy involved, paying even $15 extra to save an additional 3 watts is economically difficult. In a house with 20 light bulbs, $300 is a lot of money to invest in them, whereas 60 watts isn't a lot of savings to justify the investment. It's not even economically attractive to replace incandescents with LED's when the option of replacing them with CFL's is open to you. I expect some people will buy these LED bulbs for dining rooms where they want the dimmability, but other than that the transition from CFL's to LED's is gonna be a slow one... until the price of LED bulbs drops to within a buck or two of CFLs. Unfortunately, the price won't drop until they start being mass produced, and that's not going to happen until they're economically competitive with CFL's and, except for a C-change in technology, that's not going to happen until the price drops. Your classic Catch-22. BUT if I needed to purchase some sort of light, any light, with the only consideration being that it was going to go in an Edison base fixture, I wouldn't even consider CFLs anymore. My choice today would be between an incandescent and these new LEDs. The price difference between a CFL and the LEDs (at $15, anyway) is little enough that I'm willing to pay the extra for the luxury of not being annoyed at the CFL every time I turn it on. THe only place I have CFLs is in the unfinished basement, where 1) I don't care what how the light looks. 2) I don't care about the absurdly long warm-up. Much. 3) The lights may stay on for more than an hour a day so there might be some energy to save. 4) Haven't gotten the T8s wired in yet. #1 was resolved years ago. Current CFLs have good color temp and CRI. Bull****. Color temp doesn't tell you jack. #2 seems to only apply to encapsulated CFLs, not a single one of the open spiral CFLs I've used has a warmup time over a second or so after it's initial couple hours of burn-in. Nonsense. The pig tails take five minutes, or longer, to come up to full brightness. In cold weather, forget it. Most of my lighs aren't on that long in a day. #3 there is energy to save regardless of daily run time. If your sub hour a day run time saves #0.03 that's still a savings. Total lamp lifetime savings is still the same, it just takes longer to accumulate. Bull****. It takes energy to make the things (and for me to buy them). #4 I use all 4' T8 fixtures in my shop and I'm pretty happy with them. LEDs would save more power, but it would take more fixtures to get the same coverage as a cheap dual 4' T8 fixture. Don't bet on LEDs taking less power. 4' T8s are pretty efficient. The light is also better for such work than anything you're likely to find in a "bulb". |
Finally an alternative to incandescents?
On Fri, 26 Apr 2013 06:06:42 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote: Yes, good to know. At some point I guess I'll try buying one. It's not that hard. Just take one up to the counter and hand the clerk some money. Unless you are really weird looking, he'll probably sell you one. My experience with CFL's though makes me hesitant. Even now the results from one brand to another or even within the same brand a year later are not consistent. These are even more expensive, so you really have to believe that A: They put out nice light B: They will last long enough to recover your money. Has anyone seen any independent testing that supports b? |
Finally an alternative to incandescents?
On Fri, 26 Apr 2013 11:51:54 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote: DA wrote: replying to Nate Nagel , DA wrote: njnagel wrote: I just went back and clicked on my own link; the "online price" (except you can't even buy it online, it's a "store exclusive" product) is $49.97 each for me. Maybe HD is adjusting the pricing based on location? Perhaps in your location they are actually readily available in stores at the lower price? I have no idea... Same thing happens he I select my PA local HD - $49.97, my NJ work location (35 miles away) HD - $14.97 Sounds like a profitable business can be started to haul LED bulbs across the Delaware river :) A business doing that would seem likely to get you in trouble, but a drive over to pay cash for a batch for yourself would seem a good idea. What are they going to arrest you for, "bulb running? "Interstate transport of lighting accessories?" Too funny! |
Finally an alternative to incandescents?
On Fri, 26 Apr 2013 10:24:48 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote: I'm in VA and the $49.97 price comes up. I set "my store" to the one nearest my parents in PA and it is also $49.97. Then I tried Florham Park, NJ (first NJ city that popped into my head) and picked the closest store, suddenly price is $14.97. So I'm guessing that if I were actually able to find a store in VA that had some in stock, they would be priced at $49.97? Don't know, there's not any stores w/in 50 miles of me that is also located in VA that has any in stock, so I can't try to order for in-store pickup so I can see what the pricing is. Lesson: if you live in VA or PA, get someone from MD or NJ to buy you some of these and send them to you? (unless like me you live near a state border) If you get caught transporting these light bulbs across state lines, you'll be illuminated. nate |
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