I have agreed to try and jack up some sagging drywall in a 40 year old
house that was installed improperly. (See help I got in the following
thread,

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.h...22a0d7119caa7d
)

So I think I have come up with a plan of attack, and would like
comments on that, but this is a job with the potential for a rooms
worth of drywall to come crashing down if not jacked up properly
(Christ, one rooms worth of drywall collapsing could lead to a shock-
wave that brought it all down the rest of the sagging drywall in the
house, I know that is a small likely hood but possible in theory). I
have insurance have not had to use it and don't care to anytime soon.
How should a job be handled that has a small but real chance of
causing a lot of damage if things go wrong when the reward might only
be a days pay if jacking is not very successful to a week or twos work
if things work right.

The plan of attack is to test what can be done with one of the
upstairs rooms, they are in the worst shape. Pick a room with not much
stuff to remove and remove all stuff. Drop cloths cover the floor. Add
a couple of hundred screws to the ceiling drywall, don't pull tight
just shore up the drywall. Now using a drywall jack jack up one sheet
gently and then tighten the screws. Repeat, with all the sheets, jack
up a little, screw up. Repeat, repeat, repeat to the point where
curved drywall starts "fighting" back. If the drywall has pulled up
enough spackle and paint. 10 to 16 hours of work?

Thanks for any thoughts on either issue.

Andy:

I would simply push up on that drywall ceiling from below to see if it moves. If so, then adding more screws would seem to be the proper solution.

Maybe have someone in the attic watching the drywall while you push up on it from below with a drywall jack. If there's any relative movement between the drywall and the joists, they'd be able to see it... and whether the drywall can be pushed all the way up to the joists again.

It's true that wood can bend. If you look at an ariel photograph of any city after a rain, you'll see puddles on every flat roof. That's because over time, the joists under those roofs have sagged cuz of the weight of the roof (and their own weight). Heat and moisture soften wood so that steamed wood can be bent into the right shape to form the side of a piano, or violin or guitar, or even woven into rattan furniture. I'm sure that something similar would happen to drywall, but while it would be difficult to straighten bent wood, it would be much easier to straighten bent drywall cuz it takes so much less force to bend it.

On Apr 14, 8:16*am, nestork wrote:
Andy:

I read through most of that thread you linked to, and I can't help but
agree that if the sag is between the joists, then adding fasteners
driven into the joists isn't going to help much.

That's because, just like wood, drywall will gradually bend under it's
own weight. *If you look at an ariel photograph of any city after a
rain, you'll see puddles on all the flat roofs. *That isn't because the
weight of the water is causing the ceiling joists to bend, it's because
over the course of time, the ceiling joists have already bent under
their own weight and the weight of the roof. *Heat and humidity
accelerate that process so that steamed wood can be bent to form almost
any shape, including the sides of a piano, violin or guitar or even
woven into rattan furniture.

So, try putting in some additional drywall screws, but keep in mind that
if there's no visible difference, you need to stop there. *Otherwise,
you're going to end up with an unhappy customer that doesn't want to pay
you because you didn't FIX the problem with the ceilings.

--
nestork

I agree with above. Probably bad workmanship compounded by getting
wet/damp at some stage especially if the building has been MT for a
while.

Our "drywall" is much thinner over here but is aluminium foil backed
which prevents a lot of this problem. Damp can't get in.
Also standard pitch for joists, trusses etc is 16".
http://www.building-supplies-online....dge-1325-p.asp

On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 00:44:32 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:



So, try putting in some additional drywall screws, but keep in mind that
if there's no visible difference, you need to stop there. *Otherwise,
you're going to end up with an unhappy customer that doesn't want to pay
you because you didn't FIX the problem with the ceilings.

--
nestork

I agree with above. Probably bad workmanship compounded by getting
wet/damp at some stage especially if the building has been MT for a
while.

This is a job to walk away from.

Only way I'd take it is to price it for complete removal and new rock.
Nothing else is worth the risk and you end up with an unhappy customer
and you work for $1 an hour in the end.

On Apr 14, 7:32*am, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 00:44:32 -0700 (PDT), harry

wrote:
So, try putting in some additional drywall screws, but keep in mind that
if there's no visible difference, you need to stop there. *Otherwise,
you're going to end up with an unhappy customer that doesn't want to pay
you because you didn't FIX the problem with the ceilings.

--
nestork

I agree with above. *Probably bad workmanship compounded by getting
wet/damp at some stage especially if the building has been MT for a
while.

This is a job to walk away from.

Only way I'd take it is to price it for complete removal and new rock.
Nothing else is worth the risk and you end up with an unhappy customer
and you work for $1 an hour in the end.

As I recall from the other thread, while there was a lot of
SPECULATION
that it was sagging between joists, an attic inspection showed that it
was simply not screwed properly to the joists, ie lots of missing
screws,
and that's why it's sagging.

So, I see nothing wrong with Andy's plan. Personally, I would skip
the extra work of installing screws part way first. I'd just jack it
up
using a wide piece of wood, like a 2x12 across an area that spans
beyond two
joists or so, like 4ft at a time. I'd know where the joists are,
orient
the board in the proper direction, jack it up, then screw it in place.
See how it goes and learn.

I'd also have a written, signed contract with the homeowner that
says something to the effect that they acknowledge that the drywall
is sagging because it was installed incorrectly without screws,
that jacking it may cause it to crack, break, etc, and in that case
it may require that the drywall be replaced at their expense. This
jacking
method is an attempt to solve the problem without re-drywalling,
but there is no guarantee that it will work..... etc.

On Apr 14, 3:16*am, nestork wrote:
Andy:

I read through most of that thread you linked to, and I can't help but
agree that if the sag is between the joists, then adding fasteners
driven into the joists isn't going to help much.

That's because, just like wood, drywall will gradually bend under it's
own weight. *If you look at an ariel photograph of any city after a
rain, you'll see puddles on all the flat roofs. *That isn't because the
weight of the water is causing the ceiling joists to bend, it's because
over the course of time, the ceiling joists have already bent under
their own weight and the weight of the roof. *Heat and humidity
accelerate that process so that steamed wood can be bent to form almost
any shape, including the sides of a piano, violin or guitar or even
woven into rattan furniture.

So, try putting in some additional drywall screws, but keep in mind that
if there's no visible difference, you need to stop there. *Otherwise,
you're going to end up with an unhappy customer that doesn't want to pay
you because you didn't FIX the problem with the ceilings.

--
nestork

The sag is perpendicular to the joists, I will try and link to a scan
of a drawing of the situation below.

https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/1...Na1iYPS89KVrQE

My gut sense, is that the job is a loser. Bail out, and walk away from it.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..
..
"andyeverett" wrote in message
...
I have agreed to try and jack up some sagging drywall in a 40 year old
house that was installed improperly. (See help I got in the following
thread,

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.h...22a0d7119caa7d
)

So I think I have come up with a plan of attack, and would like
comments on that, but this is a job with the potential for a rooms
worth of drywall to come crashing down if not jacked up properly
(Christ, one rooms worth of drywall collapsing could lead to a shock-
wave that brought it all down the rest of the sagging drywall in the
house, I know that is a small likely hood but possible in theory). I
have insurance have not had to use it and don't care to anytime soon.
How should a job be handled that has a small but real chance of
causing a lot of damage if things go wrong when the reward might only
be a days pay if jacking is not very successful to a week or twos work
if things work right.

The plan of attack is to test what can be done with one of the
upstairs rooms, they are in the worst shape. Pick a room with not much
stuff to remove and remove all stuff. Drop cloths cover the floor. Add
a couple of hundred screws to the ceiling drywall, don't pull tight
just shore up the drywall. Now using a drywall jack jack up one sheet
gently and then tighten the screws. Repeat, with all the sheets, jack
up a little, screw up. Repeat, repeat, repeat to the point where
curved drywall starts "fighting" back. If the drywall has pulled up
enough spackle and paint. 10 to 16 hours of work?

Thanks for any thoughts on either issue.

On Apr 14, 9:44*am, andyeverett wrote:
On Apr 14, 3:16*am, nestork wrote:





Andy:

I read through most of that thread you linked to, and I can't help but
agree that if the sag is between the joists, then adding fasteners
driven into the joists isn't going to help much.

That's because, just like wood, drywall will gradually bend under it's
own weight. *If you look at an ariel photograph of any city after a
rain, you'll see puddles on all the flat roofs. *That isn't because the
weight of the water is causing the ceiling joists to bend, it's because
over the course of time, the ceiling joists have already bent under
their own weight and the weight of the roof. *Heat and humidity
accelerate that process so that steamed wood can be bent to form almost
any shape, including the sides of a piano, violin or guitar or even
woven into rattan furniture.

So, try putting in some additional drywall screws, but keep in mind that
if there's no visible difference, you need to stop there. *Otherwise,
you're going to end up with an unhappy customer that doesn't want to pay
you because you didn't FIX the problem with the ceilings.

--
nestork

The sag is perpendicular to the joists, I will try and link to a scan
of a drawing of the situation below.

https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/1...bums/58666...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

See my other post. Just span the sag with a piece of wood,
jack it up, see what happens. If it goes back up without breaking,
screw it in place. I'd use more screws than normal now, because
it will want to return to it's bent shape. Too few screws and they
could pull through. I'm actually wondering if nails might be better,
because they have a much wider head. Usually screws are better,
but this might be an exception. Something to keep in mind perhaps.

I'd also drive some finishing nails through from the attic to
mark where the joists are before you start, perhaps snap lines,
so it's easy to find and screw to the joists.

andyeverett wrote:
The sag is perpendicular to the joists, I will try and link to a scan
of a drawing of the situation below.

https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/1...Na1iYPS89KVrQE

FWIW, the house of my wife's mother and step father had a sagging ceiling
caused by a washer overflow in a room above. In their case, the edge of a
sheet was hanging a good 6" down. FIL "fixed it" by pushing it up and more
screws. Held for a while but ultimately the softened drywall pulled through
the screws. When wife inherited the house we just had it removed and
replaced.

I am definitely no expert on this but in your case I would try your fix. I
suspect it will be fine but would *absolutely* include a "hold blameless"
clause in the contract as trader4 suggested.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On 4/13/2013 7:58 PM, andyeverett wrote:
I have agreed to try and jack up some sagging drywall in a 40 year old
house that was installed improperly. ...

So I think I have come up with a plan of attack, and would like
comments on that, but this is a job with the potential for a rooms
worth of drywall to come crashing down ...

Not really very likely if it's been there 40-yr that one more day or two
will be the camel's back day...


The plan of attack is to test what can be done with one of the
upstairs rooms, they are in the worst shape. Pick a room with not much
stuff to remove and remove all stuff. Drop cloths cover the floor. Add
a couple of hundred screws to the ceiling drywall, don't pull tight
just shore up the drywall. Now using a drywall jack jack up one sheet
gently and then tighten the screws. Repeat, with all the sheets, jack
up a little, screw up. Repeat, repeat, repeat to the point where
curved drywall starts "fighting" back. If the drywall has pulled up
enough spackle and paint. 10 to 16 hours of work?


You can find out very quickly if there's any hope of any success or not
and all you need is a couple of t-bars of tubafor of the right length to
span the 4-ft width. You can just taper a little and wege against floor
or get fancy and make them so can actually jack, but if you can flatten
the board w/o cracking the surface paper it'll be apparent very quickly
when you try. Place one on each side of each joist 6" or so from it to
give you some working room between.

As someone else said, more than likely you'll have better luck w/
sheetrock nails than screws for this purpose as I agree w/ him you'll
likely just drive the screw thru instead of pulling up. What you'll get
you'll only get by the lift, _not_ by the screw/nail because they don't
have the bearing area.

It's not a bad idea to stick a one or two 6" or so from the secure
location and set it to the existing surface as some additional support
so the sheet doesn't break at the edge.

Basic idea is ok but I think your approach is too conservative to be
practical and won't have any better results than simply seeing if you
can relift the board back into place w/o it cracking. Otherwise, you're
talking so long that it would be cheaper to hire it replaced fresh if
you are going to try to let it "relax" back.

As others noted, the likelihood of satisfaction here will be heavily
dependent on the expectations -- it's going to have waves in it no
matter what you do; hopefully they'll be small-enough to not be too
noticeable but there's a lot of mudding/taping/leveling in somebody's
future here, methinks...

--

andyeverett wrote:
I have agreed to try and jack up some sagging drywall in a 40 year old
house that was installed improperly. (See help I got in the following
thread,

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.h...22a0d7119caa7d
)

So I think I have come up with a plan of attack, and would like
comments on that, ....

I wonder if the sagging drywall will have collected any junk or debris in
the spaces between the sagged drywall and the ceiling joists. If so, I
wonder if that will cause a problem when trying to jack up the sags and try
to get them to press up flush against the ceiling joists.

But, hey, I guess you could test it out in one room and see what happens.

Let us know how it works out.

On 4/14/2013 2:06 PM, TomR wrote:
....

I wonder if the sagging drywall will have collected any junk or debris in
the spaces between the sagged drywall and the ceiling joists. If so, I
wonder if that will cause a problem when trying to jack up the sags and try
to get them to press up flush against the ceiling joists.
....

If there's any amount, certainly. Would presume OP will have either
checked and confirmed "not much" or will have to vacuum it out first.

If were this old house, the answer would be definitely req'd first step...

--

On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 15:06:53 -0400, "TomR" wrote:

andyeverett wrote:
I have agreed to try and jack up some sagging drywall in a 40 year old
house that was installed improperly. (See help I got in the following
thread,

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.h...22a0d7119caa7d
)

So I think I have come up with a plan of attack, and would like
comments on that, ....

I wonder if the sagging drywall will have collected any junk or debris in
the spaces between the sagged drywall and the ceiling joists. If so, I
wonder if that will cause a problem when trying to jack up the sags and try
to get them to press up flush against the ceiling joists.

But, hey, I guess you could test it out in one room and see what happens.

Let us know how it works out.

I'd be concerned about the glue that was apparently applied to hold
the drywall and didn'd do the job. What condition is it in, and how
much space is it taking up????

On 4/14/2013 9:24 AM, wrote:
On Apr 14, 7:32 am, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 00:44:32 -0700 (PDT), harry

wrote:
So, try putting in some additional drywall screws, but keep in mind that
if there's no visible difference, you need to stop there. Otherwise,
you're going to end up with an unhappy customer that doesn't want to pay
you because you didn't FIX the problem with the ceilings.

--
nestork

I agree with above. Probably bad workmanship compounded by getting
wet/damp at some stage especially if the building has been MT for a
while.

This is a job to walk away from.

Only way I'd take it is to price it for complete removal and new rock.
Nothing else is worth the risk and you end up with an unhappy customer
and you work for $1 an hour in the end.

As I recall from the other thread, while there was a lot of
SPECULATION
that it was sagging between joists, an attic inspection showed that it
was simply not screwed properly to the joists, ie lots of missing
screws,
and that's why it's sagging.

So, I see nothing wrong with Andy's plan. Personally, I would skip
the extra work of installing screws part way first. I'd just jack it
up
using a wide piece of wood, like a 2x12 across an area that spans
beyond two
joists or so, like 4ft at a time. I'd know where the joists are,
orient
the board in the proper direction, jack it up, then screw it in place.
See how it goes and learn.

I'd also have a written, signed contract with the homeowner that
says something to the effect that they acknowledge that the drywall
is sagging because it was installed incorrectly without screws,
that jacking it may cause it to crack, break, etc, and in that case
it may require that the drywall be replaced at their expense. This
jacking
method is an attempt to solve the problem without re-drywalling,
but there is no guarantee that it will work..... etc.

You seem to be missing how human nature works. The OP is the expert who
has advised the homeowners on a course of action. When it goes wrong he
will be the bad guy no matter what is written in a contract.

If the OP were the owner and wanted to tinker that is a different story.

I am in total agreement with Ed. This is a job you walk away from.

On Apr 14, 6:03*pm, George wrote:
On 4/14/2013 9:24 AM, wrote:



On Apr 14, 7:32 am, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 00:44:32 -0700 (PDT), harry

wrote:
So, try putting in some additional drywall screws, but keep in mind that
if there's no visible difference, you need to stop there. *Otherwise,
you're going to end up with an unhappy customer that doesn't want to pay
you because you didn't FIX the problem with the ceilings.

--
nestork

I agree with above. *Probably bad workmanship compounded by getting
wet/damp at some stage especially if the building has been MT for a
while.

This is a job to walk away from.

Only way I'd take it is to price it for complete removal and new rock.
Nothing else is worth the risk and you end up with an unhappy customer
and you work for $1 an hour in the end.

As I recall from the other thread, while there was a lot of
SPECULATION
that it was sagging between joists, an attic inspection showed that it
was simply not screwed properly to the joists, ie lots of missing
screws,
and that's why it's sagging.

So, I see nothing wrong with Andy's plan. *Personally, I would skip
the extra work of installing screws part way first. * I'd just jack it
up
using a wide piece of wood, like a 2x12 across an area that spans
beyond two
joists or so, like 4ft at a time. *I'd know where the joists are,
orient
the board in the proper direction, jack it up, then screw it in place.
See how it goes and learn.

I'd also have a written, signed contract with the homeowner that
says something to the effect that they acknowledge that the drywall
is sagging because it was installed incorrectly without screws,
that jacking it may cause it to crack, break, etc, and in that case
it may require that the drywall be replaced at their expense. *This
jacking
method is an attempt to solve the problem without re-drywalling,
but there is no guarantee that it will work..... * etc.

You seem to be missing how human nature works. The OP is the expert who
has advised the homeowners on a course of action. When it goes wrong he
will be the bad guy no matter what is written in a contract.

If the OP were the owner and wanted to tinker that is a different story.

I am in total agreement with Ed. This is a job you walk away from.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


There are a lot of jobs where some investigation or perhaps trying a
more
basic approach is warranted to see if it works before doing a more
extensive
job. I would never advise someone to take on a job where what they
are
doing has no chance of working, is not up to normal practices, etc.
But
what Andy is proposing to do here seems perfectly reasonable to me and
it seems most other posters too.

And it's not like he's going to be doing $10K worth of work to find
out if
it works. One section of one room taking a hour or two should
determine
if it works or not. Any customer can stiff you at any time, by being
unreasonable.
Now, if something the customer already did gave me reason to believe
they were unreasonable, then I would not take this job or any other
job
they wanted done. And as I said, I would make sure I had a written
contract
that says it may not work, the drywall may crack when pushed back into
place,
if it doesn't work, drywall replacement is necessary, etc.