http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pag...r-heaters.html

Now, this guy sells anodes'n'**** for tanks, but I found his take
level-headed.
The raw thermodynamics of tankless -- esp. gas tankless -- puts one big
strike against tankless from the gitgo.
--
EA

On Jan 31, 9:05*am, "Existential Angst" wrote:
http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pag.../Longevity/tan...

Now, this guy sells anodes'n'**** for tanks, but I found his take
level-headed.
The raw thermodynamics of tankless -- esp. gas tankless -- puts one big
strike against tankless from the gitgo.
--
EA

It's a decent summary of the various issues involved. The
only points where I would disagree are where he claims it's
$600 for an installed tank versus $2500 for an installed
tankless and more if it's a retrofit. I can see the $2500+ for
some, maybe a lot of retrofits. But for a straight swap it
seems very high. And I would disagree that a well insulated
tank type unit's energy issue is only the pilot light and loss
through the pipes. The basic, cheap conventional that
he's comparing to has a flue that goes right up the middle
of the hot tank. A significant amount of heat is lost via
that path when the tank is just sitting there. You can
reduce that path via one of the direct vent type units,
but then those are significantly more money and like a
tankless have more install work involved for a retrofit.

I also have some doubts about the claims that manufacturers
of tankless come and go. That may be true with some, but
there are major manufacturers that have been around a long
time, including well established companies that make both
tank and tankless.

wrote in message
...
On Jan 31, 9:05 am, "Existential Angst" wrote:
http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pag.../Longevity/tan...

Now, this guy sells anodes'n'**** for tanks, but I found his take
level-headed.
The raw thermodynamics of tankless -- esp. gas tankless -- puts one big
strike against tankless from the gitgo.
--
EA

It's a decent summary of the various issues involved. The
only points where I would disagree are where he claims it's
$600 for an installed tank versus $2500 for an installed
tankless and more if it's a retrofit. I can see the $2500+ for
some, maybe a lot of retrofits. But for a straight swap it
seems very high. And I would disagree that a well insulated
tank type unit's energy issue is only the pilot light and loss
through the pipes. The basic, cheap conventional that
he's comparing to has a flue that goes right up the middle
of the hot tank. A significant amount of heat is lost via
that path when the tank is just sitting there.
===============================================

But there is also a "draft break" from that stand-off ditty, so that the
chimbley effect is not nearly as onerous heat-wise as without that break.

But, I would still like to see a powered vent, that closes when the unit is
off, opens when on.

Seeing as how Sears et al bangs people for $1,000 for a "non-standard
install" that takes all of one hour extra, I can only imagine the banging
people get for a tankless install. I'll bet they hype a "1 year ROI" on a
$3,000 installation....





You can
reduce that path via one of the direct vent type units,
but then those are significantly more money and like a
tankless have more install work involved for a retrofit.

I also have some doubts about the claims that manufacturers
of tankless come and go. That may be true with some, but
there are major manufacturers that have been around a long
time, including well established companies that make both
tank and tankless.
================================================== =

No doubt there is *some* spin in the article.... lol

His point about "instant on" has another piece to it.
With a tank water heater, AND a recirculating pump, you can indeed have true
"instant on".
With tankless, I don't think this is possible -- your "on" will be
obligatorily delayed by the length of the run.
This could be a major issue for epicureans.

I think he is def'ly right about the tankless hype, tho. I don't see too
many people benefitting from a conversion to tankless, esp. utility-wise,
and overall cost-to-own-wise. I'll bet that those who do like the conversion
to tankless didn't have their trad'l tank system set up or sized correckly.

Speaking of epicureans.....
Has your bedside/ng manner been improving??
--
EA

On Thursday, January 31, 2013 6:19:43 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Jan 31, 9:05*am, "Existential Angst" wrote:

http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pag.../Longevity/tan....



Now, this guy sells anodes'n'**** for tanks, but I found his take

level-headed.

The raw thermodynamics of tankless -- esp. gas tankless -- puts one big

strike against tankless from the gitgo.

--

EA



It's a decent summary of the various issues involved. The

only points where I would disagree are where he claims it's

$600 for an installed tank versus $2500 for an installed

tankless and more if it's a retrofit. I can see the $2500+ for

some, maybe a lot of retrofits. But for a straight swap it

seems very high. And I would disagree that a well insulated

tank type unit's energy issue is only the pilot light and loss

through the pipes. The basic, cheap conventional that

he's comparing to has a flue that goes right up the middle

of the hot tank. A significant amount of heat is lost via

that path when the tank is just sitting there. You can

reduce that path via one of the direct vent type units,

but then those are significantly more money and like a

tankless have more install work involved for a retrofit.



I also have some doubts about the claims that manufacturers

of tankless come and go. That may be true with some, but

there are major manufacturers that have been around a long

time, including well established companies that make both

tank and tankless.

Just because a manufacturer is still “around”
doesn’t necessarily mean that they still carry the parts.
Most manufacturers of anything don’t maintain parts
for anything over five years old.
I can’t begin to count the times
I have had to give-up on a model of something or another
just because they no longer had a part for it.

On Jan 31, 11:09*am, wrote:
On Thursday, January 31, 2013 6:19:43 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Jan 31, 9:05*am, "Existential Angst" wrote:

http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pag.../Longevity/tan....

Now, this guy sells anodes'n'**** for tanks, but I found his take

level-headed.

The raw thermodynamics of tankless -- esp. gas tankless -- puts one big

strike against tankless from the gitgo.

--

EA

It's a decent summary of the various issues involved. *The

only points where I would disagree are where he claims it's

$600 for an installed tank versus $2500 for an installed

tankless and more if it's a retrofit. *I can see the $2500+ for

some, maybe a lot of retrofits. *But for a straight swap it

seems very high. *And I would disagree that a well insulated

tank type unit's energy issue is only the pilot light and loss

through the pipes. * The basic, cheap conventional that

he's comparing to has a flue that goes right up the middle

of the hot tank. * A significant amount of heat is lost via

that path when the tank is just sitting there. *You can

reduce that path via one of the direct vent type units,

but then those are significantly more money and like a

tankless have more install work involved for a retrofit.

I also have some doubts about the claims that manufacturers

of tankless come and go. *That may be true with some, but

there are major manufacturers that have been around a long

time, including well established companies that make both

tank and tankless.

Just because a manufacturer is still “around”
doesn’t necessarily mean that they still carry the parts.
Most manufacturers of anything don’t maintain parts
for anything over five years old.

That sure has not been my experience. Recently bought
a carb kit for my Sears snowblower that's 15+ years old.
I regularly find any part I've needed for my 33 year old
classic Mercedes. And just found parts for my Stihl chainsaw
that's 40 year old.
In the latter case, not all the parts are still available new, but
that's an extreme case. And even then, used parts show up
on Ebay. I can't recall when I've had a
problem finding a new part for something that's worth repairing
that's 10 or 15 years old. The key is "worth repairing".
If it's a $25 appliance, well, that's a different story.




I can’t begin to count the times
I have had to give-up on a model of something or another
just because they no longer had a part for it.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Thursday, January 31, 2013 8:19:07 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Jan 31, 11:09*am, wrote:

On Thursday, January 31, 2013 6:19:43 AM UTC-8, wrote:

On Jan 31, 9:05*am, "Existential Angst" wrote:



http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pag.../Longevity/tan...



Now, this guy sells anodes'n'**** for tanks, but I found his take



level-headed.



The raw thermodynamics of tankless -- esp. gas tankless -- puts one big



strike against tankless from the gitgo.



--



EA



It's a decent summary of the various issues involved. *The



only points where I would disagree are where he claims it's



$600 for an installed tank versus $2500 for an installed



tankless and more if it's a retrofit. *I can see the $2500+ for



some, maybe a lot of retrofits. *But for a straight swap it



seems very high. *And I would disagree that a well insulated



tank type unit's energy issue is only the pilot light and loss



through the pipes. * The basic, cheap conventional that



he's comparing to has a flue that goes right up the middle



of the hot tank. * A significant amount of heat is lost via



that path when the tank is just sitting there. *You can



reduce that path via one of the direct vent type units,



but then those are significantly more money and like a



tankless have more install work involved for a retrofit.



I also have some doubts about the claims that manufacturers



of tankless come and go. *That may be true with some, but



there are major manufacturers that have been around a long



time, including well established companies that make both



tank and tankless.



Just because a manufacturer is still “around”

doesn’t necessarily mean that they still carry the parts.

Most manufacturers of anything don’t maintain parts

for anything over five years old.



That sure has not been my experience. Recently bought

a carb kit for my Sears snowblower that's 15+ years old.

I regularly find any part I've needed for my 33 year old

classic Mercedes. And just found parts for my Stihl chainsaw

that's 40 year old.

In the latter case, not all the parts are still available new, but

that's an extreme case. And even then, used parts show up

on Ebay. I can't recall when I've had a

problem finding a new part for something that's worth repairing

that's 10 or 15 years old. The key is "worth repairing".

If it's a $25 appliance, well, that's a different story.









I can’t begin to count the times

I have had to give-up on a model of something or another

just because they no longer had a part for it.- Hide quoted text -



- Show quoted text -

I had to tell my client that the cartridges
for his top of the line matching Grohe
lavatory faucets were no longer available.
The faucets were fifteen years old
and for a high prices manufacturer like Grohe
that’s considered very new.
Sure you might be able to get it on E-Bay
but you won’t know if you’re getting a rebuilt
that’s going to start leaking in a few months.
Another client had a built in Kenmore microwave oven
that Sears said they no longer had the magnetron to.
I can understand not having some obscure part but a magnetron?
Give me a break.

wrote in message
...
Most manufacturers of anything don’t maintain parts
for anything over five years old.

That sure has not been my experience. Recently bought
a carb kit for my Sears snowblower that's 15+ years old.
I regularly find any part I've needed for my 33 year old
classic Mercedes. And just found parts for my Stihl chainsaw
that's 40 year old.
In the latter case, not all the parts are still available new, but
that's an extreme case. And even then, used parts show up
on Ebay. I can't recall when I've had a
problem finding a new part for something that's worth repairing
that's 10 or 15 years old. The key is "worth repairing".
If it's a $25 appliance, well, that's a different story.

That worth repairing must apply to Fords. A coworker had a Ford truck that
was about 5 years old and something broke on it. I think it had to do with
the
electric windows, but not sure. Anyway he could not get the part from Ford
and had been around to a lot of junk yards and none were available.

Now if he had a Modle T he could probably get almost anyting for it.
Not from Ford, but many aftermarket places.




I can’t begin to count the times
I have had to give-up on a model of something or another
just because they no longer had a part for it.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Jan 31, 1:56*pm, "Ralph Mowery" wrote:
wrote in message

...

Most manufacturers of anything don’t maintain parts
for anything over five years old.
That sure has not been my experience. *Recently bought
a carb kit for my Sears snowblower that's 15+ years old.
I regularly find any part I've needed for my 33 year old
classic Mercedes. And just found parts for my Stihl chainsaw
that's 40 year old.
In the latter case, not all the parts are still available new, but
that's an extreme case. *And even then, used parts show up
on Ebay. * I can't recall when I've had a
problem finding a new part for something that's worth repairing
that's 10 or 15 years old. *The key is "worth repairing".
If it's a $25 appliance, well, that's a different story.

That worth repairing must apply to Fords. *A coworker had a Ford truck that
was about 5 years old and something broke on it. *I think it had to do with
the
electric windows, but not sure. *Anyway he could not get the part from Ford
and had been around to a lot of junk yards and none were available.

Now if he had a Modle T he could probably get almost anyting for it.
Not from Ford, but many aftermarket places.



I can’t begin to count the times
I have had to give-up on a model of something or another
just because they no longer had a part for it.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I would suspect there is a lot more to this story. Like
Ford only sells whatever part he's looking for as part of an
ASSEMBLY. I have seen that happen on occasion. People
want to buy what should be a $10 piece of something, but
it's only available as a whole unit that cost $100.

But, sorry, I don't buy that a part to repair whatever was wrong
with his 5 year old truck was not available from Ford period.

On 1/31/2013 1:56 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:

wrote in message
...
Most manufacturers of anything don’t maintain parts
for anything over five years old.

That sure has not been my experience. Recently bought
a carb kit for my Sears snowblower that's 15+ years old.
I regularly find any part I've needed for my 33 year old
classic Mercedes. And just found parts for my Stihl chainsaw
that's 40 year old.
In the latter case, not all the parts are still available new, but
that's an extreme case. And even then, used parts show up
on Ebay. I can't recall when I've had a
problem finding a new part for something that's worth repairing
that's 10 or 15 years old. The key is "worth repairing".
If it's a $25 appliance, well, that's a different story.

That worth repairing must apply to Fords. A coworker had a Ford truck that
was about 5 years old and something broke on it. I think it had to do with
the
electric windows, but not sure. Anyway he could not get the part from Ford
and had been around to a lot of junk yards and none were available.


My guess your coworker might have been upset because the part was part
of a FRU and wasn't available as a discrete part.

Manufacturers typically make most of their profit from the sale of spare
and replacement parts.




Now if he had a Modle T he could probably get almost anyting for it.
Not from Ford, but many aftermarket places.




I can’t begin to count the times
I have had to give-up on a model of something or another
just because they no longer had a part for it.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On 01-31-2013 13:56, Ralph Mowery wrote:
That worth repairing must apply to Fords. A coworker had a Ford truck that
was about 5 years old and something broke on it. I think it had to do with
the
electric windows, but not sure. Anyway he could not get the part from Ford
and had been around to a lot of junk yards and none were available.

Interesting. When did they repeal the federal law that manufacturers
must provide car parts for ten years?

--
Wes Groleau

After the christening of his baby brother in church, Jason sobbed
all the way home in the back seat of the car. His father asked him
three times what was wrong. Finally, the boy replied, €œThat preacher
said he wanted us brought up in a Christian home, and I wanted to
stay with you guys."

On 1/31/2013 9:05 AM, Existential Angst wrote:
http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pag...r-heaters.html

Now, this guy sells anodes'n'**** for tanks, but I found his take
level-headed.
The raw thermodynamics of tankless -- esp. gas tankless -- puts one big
strike against tankless from the gitgo.


Maybe spend a little more time pondering it (you know **** and stuff)

Its just a typical fluff piece designed to fill space. The writer
immediately discredits themselves with a FUD declaration "Tankless water
heaters have come and gone"

The originator Takagi has only been making tankless heaters for 60
years and still going stong. The other main player Rinnai has only been
making tankless heaters since 1964 and is still going stong.

"George" wrote in message
...
On 1/31/2013 9:05 AM, Existential Angst wrote:
http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pag...r-heaters.html

Now, this guy sells anodes'n'**** for tanks, but I found his take
level-headed.
The raw thermodynamics of tankless -- esp. gas tankless -- puts one big
strike against tankless from the gitgo.


Maybe spend a little more time pondering it (you know **** and stuff)

Its just a typical fluff piece designed to fill space. The writer
immediately discredits themselves with a FUD declaration "Tankless water
heaters have come and gone"

Forgivable spin, imo.
Not so forgivable is the tankless hype.


The originator Takagi has only been making tankless heaters for 60 years
and still going stong. The other main player Rinnai has only been making
tankless heaters since 1964 and is still going stong.

yawn..... whatever.....
Talking thermodynamics to your dumbass is f'sure pointless.....

Tankless is hype. Any honest breakdown of the economics will show sig'ly
higher cost-to-own for most people.
Not that the technology/systems is so so bad -- still thermodynamically
profligate, but in larger part, the "infrastructure" for plain ole water
heaters is so large, that that in itself gives the trad'l a homefield
advantage.

Hey, but I know this is over yer head, and it would be a, uh, tankless task
explaining it to you.
And I know I'm distracting you from preparing for your single-sleeping-bag
BoiScout campout with JoeBoi.... have fun.....
--
EA

On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 09:57:47 -0500, George
wrote:

Its just a typical fluff piece designed to fill space. The writer
immediately discredits themselves with a FUD declaration "Tankless water
heaters have come and gone"


....and this sentence:

"Oh, and by the way, tankless controls use electricity and they're on
all the time."

That is false; at least in some instances. Gas tankless (check the
brand) use a small inline turbine to ignite the gas when demand is
called for. There is not electrical supply to the unit and it works
during a power outage.

The originator Takagi has only been making tankless heaters for 60
years and still going stong. The other main player Rinnai has only been
making tankless heaters since 1964 and is still going stong.

PEX has been around for many years, yet people are afraid of it.

I would not use tankless on a retro fit, but certainly would on a new
build.

On Jan 31, 12:59*pm, Oren wrote:
On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 09:57:47 -0500, George
wrote:

Its just a typical fluff piece designed to fill space. The writer
immediately discredits themselves with a FUD declaration "Tankless water
heaters have come and gone"

...and this sentence:

"Oh, and by the way, tankless controls use electricity and they're on
all the time."

That is false; at least in some instances. *Gas tankless (check the
brand) use a small inline turbine to ignite the gas when demand is
called for. There is not electrical supply to the unit and it works
during a power outage.

The originator Takagi has only been making tankless heaters *for 60
years and still going stong. The other main player Rinnai has only been
making tankless heaters since 1964 and is still going stong.

PEX has been around for many years, yet people are afraid of it.

I would not use tankless on a retro fit, but certainly would on a new
build.

many gas tankless are power vent, no electric no hot shower. our
longest outage was over 3 days, luckily it was in the summer, still a
hot shower was nice......

after cutting up downed trees all day

On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 10:27:35 -0800 (PST), bob haller
wrote:

On Jan 31, 12:59*pm, Oren wrote:
On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 09:57:47 -0500, George
wrote:

Its just a typical fluff piece designed to fill space. The writer
immediately discredits themselves with a FUD declaration "Tankless water
heaters have come and gone"

...and this sentence:

"Oh, and by the way, tankless controls use electricity and they're on
all the time."

That is false; at least in some instances. *Gas tankless (check the
brand) use a small inline turbine to ignite the gas when demand is
called for. There is not electrical supply to the unit and it works
during a power outage.

The originator Takagi has only been making tankless heaters *for 60
years and still going stong. The other main player Rinnai has only been
making tankless heaters since 1964 and is still going stong.

PEX has been around for many years, yet people are afraid of it.

I would not use tankless on a retro fit, but certainly would on a new
build.

many gas tankless are power vent, no electric no hot shower. our
longest outage was over 3 days, luckily it was in the summer, still a
hot shower was nice......

after cutting up downed trees all day

Some gas tankless units are installed on exterior walls of the home;
require no power venting at all, as they are not inside the home.

On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 11:05:18 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 10:27:35 -0800 (PST), bob haller
wrote:

On Jan 31, 12:59*pm, Oren wrote:
On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 09:57:47 -0500, George
wrote:

Its just a typical fluff piece designed to fill space. The writer
immediately discredits themselves with a FUD declaration "Tankless water
heaters have come and gone"

...and this sentence:

"Oh, and by the way, tankless controls use electricity and they're on
all the time."

That is false; at least in some instances. *Gas tankless (check the
brand) use a small inline turbine to ignite the gas when demand is
called for. There is not electrical supply to the unit and it works
during a power outage.

The originator Takagi has only been making tankless heaters *for 60
years and still going stong. The other main player Rinnai has only been
making tankless heaters since 1964 and is still going stong.

PEX has been around for many years, yet people are afraid of it.

I would not use tankless on a retro fit, but certainly would on a new
build.

many gas tankless are power vent, no electric no hot shower. our
longest outage was over 3 days, luckily it was in the summer, still a
hot shower was nice......

after cutting up downed trees all day

Some gas tankless units are installed on exterior walls of the home;
require no power venting at all, as they are not inside the home.
Love to see one of those suckers survive anywhere much north of the
Mason Dixon line.

On 1/31/2013 2:05 PM, Oren wrote:
On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 10:27:35 -0800 (PST), bob haller
wrote:

On Jan 31, 12:59 pm, Oren wrote:
On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 09:57:47 -0500, George
wrote:

Its just a typical fluff piece designed to fill space. The writer
immediately discredits themselves with a FUD declaration "Tankless water
heaters have come and gone"

...and this sentence:

"Oh, and by the way, tankless controls use electricity and they're on
all the time."

That is false; at least in some instances. Gas tankless (check the
brand) use a small inline turbine to ignite the gas when demand is
called for. There is not electrical supply to the unit and it works
during a power outage.

The originator Takagi has only been making tankless heaters for 60
years and still going stong. The other main player Rinnai has only been
making tankless heaters since 1964 and is still going stong.

PEX has been around for many years, yet people are afraid of it.

I would not use tankless on a retro fit, but certainly would on a new
build.

many gas tankless are power vent, no electric no hot shower. our
longest outage was over 3 days, luckily it was in the summer, still a
hot shower was nice......

after cutting up downed trees all day

Some gas tankless units are installed on exterior walls of the home;
require no power venting at all, as they are not inside the home.


A lot depends on where you are. They have a programmable mode where they
cycle just enough to prevent freezing. If you are at a higher latitude
like us I think it is just asking for extra trouble.

On 1/31/2013 12:59 PM, Oren wrote:
On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 09:57:47 -0500, George
wrote:

Its just a typical fluff piece designed to fill space. The writer
immediately discredits themselves with a FUD declaration "Tankless water
heaters have come and gone"


...and this sentence:

"Oh, and by the way, tankless controls use electricity and they're on
all the time."

That is false; at least in some instances. Gas tankless (check the
brand) use a small inline turbine to ignite the gas when demand is
called for. There is not electrical supply to the unit and it works
during a power outage.

The originator Takagi has only been making tankless heaters for 60
years and still going stong. The other main player Rinnai has only been
making tankless heaters since 1964 and is still going stong.

PEX has been around for many years, yet people are afraid of it.


I am sure "ET" is in that camp...


I would not use tankless on a retro fit, but certainly would on a new
build.

"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...

http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pag...r-heaters.html

Now, this guy sells anodes'n'**** for tanks, but I found his take
level-headed.
The raw thermodynamics of tankless -- esp. gas tankless -- puts one big
strike against tankless from the gitgo.


Funny how tankless heaters have been around for more than 50 years in Europe
and are the primary mode of providing hot water to households
One has to wonder why something that has had 50+ years of daily usage in
a large parts of the world would allegedly be so far back technically as the
author claims.

There are TWO reasons why the tankless are still expensive to buy and
install:
1) They are relatively new and unknown here, with not much demand for
them yet
2) They are going against what has been the norm during the 50+ years.
Change is slow
I should also mention that there is resistance from the plumbing
establishment, who are being challenged in their "control" zones.

On Jan 31, 10:25*am, "Attila Iskander"
wrote:
"Existential Angst" wrote in message

...



http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pag.../Longevity/tan...

Now, this guy sells anodes'n'**** for tanks, but I found his take
level-headed.
The raw thermodynamics of tankless -- esp. gas tankless -- puts one big
strike against tankless from the gitgo.

Funny how tankless heaters have been around for more than 50 years in Europe
and are the primary mode of providing hot water to households
* * One has to wonder why something that has had 50+ years of daily usage in
a large parts of the world would allegedly be so far back technically as the
author claims.

A lot of the rest of the world has a lot of things going on in the
economy that are not governed by free market economics, but instead
by govt mandates, regulations, subsidies, etc. For one thing, the
cost
of energy is typically substantially higher in many places than
it is here. People in those other parts of the world could just as
easily point to the huge market for water heaters in the USA and
how little of it is tankless as evidence that tank type is superior.

Most of what is pointed out in that link is true. Particularly that
the
total cost of installing a tankless, particularly if it's a retrofit,
skew
the economics so that it's unlikely you'll ever recover the higher
initial cost here in the USA, where nat gas is still relatively modest
cost.




There are TWO reasons why the tankless are still expensive to buy and
install:
1) * *They are relatively new and unknown here, with not much demand for
them yet
2) * *They are going against what has been the norm during the 50+ years.
Change is slow
I should also mention that there is resistance from the plumbing
establishment, who are being challenged in their "control" zones.

Of course the fact that in a lot of retrofit cases you have to
increase
the line size all the way back to the gas meter, maybe replace the
gas meter too, put in new venting, etc has nothing to do with it,
right?
Or the fact that if the power goes out, with a tank type, you still
have
hot water for 2 days?

"Attila Iskander" wrote in message
...

"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...

http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pag...r-heaters.html

Now, this guy sells anodes'n'**** for tanks, but I found his take
level-headed.
The raw thermodynamics of tankless -- esp. gas tankless -- puts one big
strike against tankless from the gitgo.


Funny how tankless heaters have been around for more than 50 years in
Europe and are the primary mode of providing hot water to households
One has to wonder why something that has had 50+ years of daily usage
in a large parts of the world would allegedly be so far back technically
as the author claims.

There are TWO reasons why the tankless are still expensive to buy and
install:
1) They are relatively new and unknown here, with not much demand for
them yet
2) They are going against what has been the norm during the 50+ years.
Change is slow
I should also mention that there is resistance from the plumbing
establishment, who are being challenged in their "control" zones.

If everybody in any area of concentrated population had an electric tankless
system, they'd blackout the local grid every morning.
If they all had gas tankless, the CO2 would proly make everyone so sleepy
they couldn't drive to work.
Plus, in gas tankless, the thermodynamics is all wrong. Well, not
scientifically wrong, just energetically immoral.....
--
EA

"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
"Attila Iskander" wrote in message
...

"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...

http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pag...r-heaters.html

Now, this guy sells anodes'n'**** for tanks, but I found his take
level-headed.
The raw thermodynamics of tankless -- esp. gas tankless -- puts one big
strike against tankless from the gitgo.


Funny how tankless heaters have been around for more than 50 years in
Europe and are the primary mode of providing hot water to households
One has to wonder why something that has had 50+ years of daily usage
in a large parts of the world would allegedly be so far back technically
as the author claims.

There are TWO reasons why the tankless are still expensive to buy and
install:
1) They are relatively new and unknown here, with not much demand for
them yet
2) They are going against what has been the norm during the 50+ years.
Change is slow
I should also mention that there is resistance from the plumbing
establishment, who are being challenged in their "control" zones.

If everybody in any area of concentrated population had an electric
tankless system, they'd blackout the local grid every morning.
If they all had gas tankless, the CO2 would proly make everyone so sleepy
they couldn't drive to work.
Plus, in gas tankless, the thermodynamics is all wrong. Well, not
scientifically wrong, just energetically immoral.....



What a total crock of ignorant shot

"Attila Iskander" wrote in message
...

"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
"Attila Iskander" wrote in message
...

"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...

http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pag...r-heaters.html

Now, this guy sells anodes'n'**** for tanks, but I found his take
level-headed.
The raw thermodynamics of tankless -- esp. gas tankless -- puts one big
strike against tankless from the gitgo.


Funny how tankless heaters have been around for more than 50 years in
Europe and are the primary mode of providing hot water to households
One has to wonder why something that has had 50+ years of daily usage
in a large parts of the world would allegedly be so far back technically
as the author claims.

There are TWO reasons why the tankless are still expensive to buy and
install:
1) They are relatively new and unknown here, with not much demand for
them yet
2) They are going against what has been the norm during the 50+
years. Change is slow
I should also mention that there is resistance from the plumbing
establishment, who are being challenged in their "control" zones.

If everybody in any area of concentrated population had an electric
tankless system, they'd blackout the local grid every morning.
If they all had gas tankless, the CO2 would proly make everyone so sleepy
they couldn't drive to work.
Plus, in gas tankless, the thermodynamics is all wrong. Well, not
scientifically wrong, just energetically immoral.....



What a total crock of ignorant shot

Then you know nothing about power generation and the notion of "demand".
Look it up.
Why do you think there are blackouts/brownouts in big cities in 100 deg
weather?
--
EA

On Feb 1, 9:25*am, "Existential Angst" wrote:
"Attila Iskander" wrote in message

...







"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
"Attila Iskander" wrote in message
...

"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...

http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pag.../Longevity/tan....

Now, this guy sells anodes'n'**** for tanks, but I found his take
level-headed.
The raw thermodynamics of tankless -- esp. gas tankless -- puts one big
strike against tankless from the gitgo.

Funny how tankless heaters have been around for more than 50 years in
Europe and are the primary mode of providing hot water to households
* *One has to wonder why something that has had 50+ years of daily usage
in a large parts of the world would allegedly be so far back technically
as the author claims.

There are TWO reasons why the tankless are still expensive to buy and
install:
1) * *They are relatively new and unknown here, with not much demand for
them yet
2) * *They are going against what has been the norm during the 50+
years. Change is slow
I should also mention that there is resistance from the plumbing
establishment, who are being challenged in their "control" zones.

If everybody in any area of concentrated population had an electric
tankless system, they'd blackout the local grid every morning.
If they all had gas tankless, the CO2 would proly make everyone so sleepy
they couldn't drive to work.
Plus, in gas tankless, the thermodynamics is all wrong. *Well, not
scientifically wrong, just energetically immoral.....

What a total crock of ignorant shot

Then you know nothing about power generation and the notion of "demand".
Look it up.
Why do you think there are blackouts/brownouts in big cities in 100 deg
weather?
--
EA



- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You're arguing against a stawman. Let's assume for a moment that
everyone used tankless. Why would you ever assume that it's all
going to be ELECTRIC? For the vast majority of the population,
nat gas is available and cheaper and due to the energy reqts, a
far better solution. It's like arguing that IF everyone used electric
heat, there would be a problem.....

"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
"Attila Iskander" wrote in message
...

"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
"Attila Iskander" wrote in message
...

"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...

http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pag...r-heaters.html

Now, this guy sells anodes'n'**** for tanks, but I found his take
level-headed.
The raw thermodynamics of tankless -- esp. gas tankless -- puts one
big strike against tankless from the gitgo.


Funny how tankless heaters have been around for more than 50 years in
Europe and are the primary mode of providing hot water to households
One has to wonder why something that has had 50+ years of daily
usage in a large parts of the world would allegedly be so far back
technically as the author claims.

There are TWO reasons why the tankless are still expensive to buy and
install:
1) They are relatively new and unknown here, with not much demand
for them yet
2) They are going against what has been the norm during the 50+
years. Change is slow
I should also mention that there is resistance from the plumbing
establishment, who are being challenged in their "control" zones.

If everybody in any area of concentrated population had an electric
tankless system, they'd blackout the local grid every morning.
If they all had gas tankless, the CO2 would proly make everyone so
sleepy they couldn't drive to work.
Plus, in gas tankless, the thermodynamics is all wrong. Well, not
scientifically wrong, just energetically immoral.....



What a total crock of ignorant shot

Then you know nothing about power generation and the notion of "demand".
Look it up.
Why do you think there are blackouts/brownouts in big cities in 100 deg
weather?


It's your scenario that is a total crock of ****
About the ONLY place where people who be all electric is Quebec.
But they are a net EXPORTER of electricity BECAUSE they have so much
hydro-electric power generation capacity.
So your scenario would actually fail there
For the rest of the real world, since the odds of everyone producing hot
water with electricity is BOGUS, so are your silly conclusions

Any idiot can come up with such extreme scenarios
But only idiots spend their time arguing such absolutes.

On 2/1/2013 5:50 AM, Attila Iskander wrote:

"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
"Attila Iskander" wrote in message
...

"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...

http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pag...r-heaters.html


Now, this guy sells anodes'n'**** for tanks, but I found his take
level-headed.
The raw thermodynamics of tankless -- esp. gas tankless -- puts one
big strike against tankless from the gitgo.


Funny how tankless heaters have been around for more than 50 years in
Europe and are the primary mode of providing hot water to households
One has to wonder why something that has had 50+ years of daily
usage in a large parts of the world would allegedly be so far back
technically as the author claims.

There are TWO reasons why the tankless are still expensive to buy and
install:
1) They are relatively new and unknown here, with not much demand
for them yet
2) They are going against what has been the norm during the 50+
years. Change is slow
I should also mention that there is resistance from the plumbing
establishment, who are being challenged in their "control" zones.

If everybody in any area of concentrated population had an electric
tankless system, they'd blackout the local grid every morning.
If they all had gas tankless, the CO2 would proly make everyone so
sleepy they couldn't drive to work.
Plus, in gas tankless, the thermodynamics is all wrong. Well, not
scientifically wrong, just energetically immoral.....



What a total crock of ignorant shot

I don't know. "ET" sounds claims he/she is an expert on thermodynamics
(and sh*t)...

On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 09:25:34 -0600, "Attila Iskander"
wrote:


"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...

http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pag...r-heaters.html

Now, this guy sells anodes'n'**** for tanks, but I found his take
level-headed.
The raw thermodynamics of tankless -- esp. gas tankless -- puts one big
strike against tankless from the gitgo.


Funny how tankless heaters have been around for more than 50 years in Europe
and are the primary mode of providing hot water to households
One has to wonder why something that has had 50+ years of daily usage in
a large parts of the world would allegedly be so far back technically as the
author claims.

Turn that around for a minute - and put the tank heater in the place
of the tankless, and North America in place of Europe innyour
arguement.

The tank heater has been in use twice as long in North America as the
tankless has been in Europe

There are TWO reasons why the tankless are still expensive to buy and
install:
1) They are relatively new and unknown here, with not much demand for
them yet
2) They are going against what has been the norm during the 50+ years.
Change is slow
I should also mention that there is resistance from the plumbing
establishment, who are being challenged in their "control" zones.

The plumbers should be laughing all the way to the bank. Maintenance
costs are AWFULL.

Point of use water heaters are a different story - THEY actually make
sense.

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 09:25:34 -0600, "Attila Iskander"
wrote:


"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...

http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pag...r-heaters.html

Now, this guy sells anodes'n'**** for tanks, but I found his take
level-headed.
The raw thermodynamics of tankless -- esp. gas tankless -- puts one big
strike against tankless from the gitgo.


Funny how tankless heaters have been around for more than 50 years in
Europe
and are the primary mode of providing hot water to households
One has to wonder why something that has had 50+ years of daily usage
in
a large parts of the world would allegedly be so far back technically as
the
author claims.

Turn that around for a minute - and put the tank heater in the place
of the tankless, and North America in place of Europe innyour
arguement.


Indeed, that's implicit


The tank heater has been in use twice as long in North America as the
tankless has been in Europe

Surely you can support that claim with evidence.




There are TWO reasons why the tankless are still expensive to buy and
install:
1) They are relatively new and unknown here, with not much demand for
them yet
2) They are going against what has been the norm during the 50+ years.
Change is slow
I should also mention that there is resistance from the plumbing
establishment, who are being challenged in their "control" zones.

The plumbers should be laughing all the way to the bank. Maintenance
costs are AWFULL.


Feel free to provide the evidence

Point of use water heaters are a different story - THEY actually make
sense.


Only if you go with prejudice and unfounded beliefs
I'll leave you to it.

On Fri, 1 Feb 2013 04:53:11 -0600, "Attila Iskander"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 09:25:34 -0600, "Attila Iskander"
wrote:


"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...

http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pag...r-heaters.html

Now, this guy sells anodes'n'**** for tanks, but I found his take
level-headed.
The raw thermodynamics of tankless -- esp. gas tankless -- puts one big
strike against tankless from the gitgo.


Funny how tankless heaters have been around for more than 50 years in
Europe
and are the primary mode of providing hot water to households
One has to wonder why something that has had 50+ years of daily usage
in
a large parts of the world would allegedly be so far back technically as
the
author claims.

Turn that around for a minute - and put the tank heater in the place
of the tankless, and North America in place of Europe innyour
arguement.


Indeed, that's implicit


The tank heater has been in use twice as long in North America as the
tankless has been in Europe

Surely you can support that claim with evidence.
They've been in use for at least 100 years over here.




There are TWO reasons why the tankless are still expensive to buy and
install:
1) They are relatively new and unknown here, with not much demand for
them yet
2) They are going against what has been the norm during the 50+ years.
Change is slow
I should also mention that there is resistance from the plumbing
establishment, who are being challenged in their "control" zones.

The plumbers should be laughing all the way to the bank. Maintenance
costs are AWFULL.


Feel free to provide the evidence

It's been posted MANY times before - and you can look it up for
yourself

Point of use water heaters are a different story - THEY actually make
sense.


Only if you go with prejudice and unfounded beliefs
I'll leave you to it.


You can waste your money on a tankless. I won't.

Your choice, and mine. to make.

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 1 Feb 2013 04:53:11 -0600, "Attila Iskander"
wrote:


wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 09:25:34 -0600, "Attila Iskander"
wrote:


"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...

http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pag...r-heaters.html

Now, this guy sells anodes'n'**** for tanks, but I found his take
level-headed.
The raw thermodynamics of tankless -- esp. gas tankless -- puts one
big
strike against tankless from the gitgo.


Funny how tankless heaters have been around for more than 50 years in
Europe
and are the primary mode of providing hot water to households
One has to wonder why something that has had 50+ years of daily
usage
in
a large parts of the world would allegedly be so far back technically as
the
author claims.

Turn that around for a minute - and put the tank heater in the place
of the tankless, and North America in place of Europe innyour
arguement.


Indeed, that's implicit


The tank heater has been in use twice as long in North America as the
tankless has been in Europe

Surely you can support that claim with evidence.
They've been in use for at least 100 years over here.




There are TWO reasons why the tankless are still expensive to buy and
install:
1) They are relatively new and unknown here, with not much demand for
them yet
2) They are going against what has been the norm during the 50+
years.
Change is slow
I should also mention that there is resistance from the plumbing
establishment, who are being challenged in their "control" zones.

The plumbers should be laughing all the way to the bank. Maintenance
costs are AWFULL.


Feel free to provide the evidence

It's been posted MANY times before - and you can look it up for
yourself

Point of use water heaters are a different story - THEY actually make
sense.


Only if you go with prejudice and unfounded beliefs
I'll leave you to it.


You can waste your money on a tankless. I won't.

Your choice, and mine. to make.

Pay no mind to hissy li'l Attila. I suspect he gets the **** slapped out of
him so often, he can no longer think straight.

Asking for evidence that a tankless system does not require more maintenance
than tanked is like asking for proof that a fuel dragster doesn't get more
engine overhauls than a commuter car.
Or proof that perpetual motion machines don't work. People like this
simply don't understand mechanics or physics -- which makes their
short-tempered snippiness all the more laughable.

In the mega-facilities of my mega-employer, they have point-tankless all
over the place. They all suck, half of them seem not to work at all. Altho
you CAN hear a relay click.... LOL
AND they are relatively new!!!
And the water -- in a ****ty li'l low-flo mini-sink -- is lukewarm. AND it
draws 4 kW.....!!!! Holy ****....
--
EA

On 01/31/13 10:25 am, Attila Iskander wrote:

http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pag...r-heaters.html


Now, this guy sells anodes'n'**** for tanks, but I found his take
level-headed.
The raw thermodynamics of tankless -- esp. gas tankless -- puts one
big strike against tankless from the gitgo.

Funny how tankless heaters have been around for more than 50 years in
Europe and are the primary mode of providing hot water to households
One has to wonder why something that has had 50+ years of daily usage in
a large parts of the world would allegedly be so far back technically as
the author claims.

Do you mean tankless for *central* water heating in Europe? I do recall
some people having what was called a "Geyser" (trade name?) over the
kitchen sink when I was a child in the UK, but I don't know whether they
had any other hot-water supply for other rooms.

The only water heaters my family ever had were associated with an
always-burning solid-fuel stove (an "Aga") or later a gas-fired boiler
for central heating and hot-water supply, with an electric element in
the storage tank for use in the summer.

Perce

On 1/31/2013 12:58 PM, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
On 01/31/13 10:25 am, Attila Iskander wrote:

http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pag...r-heaters.html



Now, this guy sells anodes'n'**** for tanks, but I found his take
level-headed.
The raw thermodynamics of tankless -- esp. gas tankless -- puts one
big strike against tankless from the gitgo.

Funny how tankless heaters have been around for more than 50 years in
Europe and are the primary mode of providing hot water to households
One has to wonder why something that has had 50+ years of daily usage in
a large parts of the world would allegedly be so far back technically as
the author claims.

Do you mean tankless for *central* water heating in Europe? I do recall
some people having what was called a "Geyser" (trade name?) over the
kitchen sink when I was a child in the UK, but I don't know whether they
had any other hot-water supply for other rooms.

The only water heaters my family ever had were associated with an
always-burning solid-fuel stove (an "Aga") or later a gas-fired boiler
for central heating and hot-water supply, with an electric element in
the storage tank for use in the summer.

Perce

I've noticed in pictures, a water heater inside the bathroom showers of
places in Europe. It appeared to be an electric unit right above the
shower head. ^_^

TDD

On Thursday, January 31, 2013 11:22:11 AM UTC-8, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 1/31/2013 12:58 PM, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:

On 01/31/13 10:25 am, Attila Iskander wrote:



http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pag...r-heaters.html







Now, this guy sells anodes'n'**** for tanks, but I found his take

level-headed.

The raw thermodynamics of tankless -- esp. gas tankless -- puts one

big strike against tankless from the gitgo.



Funny how tankless heaters have been around for more than 50 years in

Europe and are the primary mode of providing hot water to households

One has to wonder why something that has had 50+ years of daily usage in

a large parts of the world would allegedly be so far back technically as

the author claims.



Do you mean tankless for *central* water heating in Europe? I do recall

some people having what was called a "Geyser" (trade name?) over the

kitchen sink when I was a child in the UK, but I don't know whether they

had any other hot-water supply for other rooms.



The only water heaters my family ever had were associated with an

always-burning solid-fuel stove (an "Aga") or later a gas-fired boiler

for central heating and hot-water supply, with an electric element in

the storage tank for use in the summer.



Perce



I've noticed in pictures, a water heater inside the bathroom showers of

places in Europe. It appeared to be an electric unit right above the

shower head. ^_^



TDD

and the voltage is 220 volts in them there places.

On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 12:10:08 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Thursday, January 31, 2013 11:22:11 AM UTC-8, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 1/31/2013 12:58 PM, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:

On 01/31/13 10:25 am, Attila Iskander wrote:



http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pag...r-heaters.html







Now, this guy sells anodes'n'**** for tanks, but I found his take

level-headed.

The raw thermodynamics of tankless -- esp. gas tankless -- puts one

big strike against tankless from the gitgo.



Funny how tankless heaters have been around for more than 50 years in

Europe and are the primary mode of providing hot water to households

One has to wonder why something that has had 50+ years of daily usage in

a large parts of the world would allegedly be so far back technically as

the author claims.



Do you mean tankless for *central* water heating in Europe? I do recall

some people having what was called a "Geyser" (trade name?) over the

kitchen sink when I was a child in the UK, but I don't know whether they

had any other hot-water supply for other rooms.



The only water heaters my family ever had were associated with an

always-burning solid-fuel stove (an "Aga") or later a gas-fired boiler

for central heating and hot-water supply, with an electric element in

the storage tank for use in the summer.



Perce



I've noticed in pictures, a water heater inside the bathroom showers of

places in Europe. It appeared to be an electric unit right above the

shower head. ^_^



TDD

and the voltage is 220 volts in them there places.

BTW, 240V is available in the US, too.

On 1/31/2013 12:22 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 1/31/2013 12:58 PM, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
On 01/31/13 10:25 am, Attila Iskander wrote:

http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pag...r-heaters.html




Now, this guy sells anodes'n'**** for tanks, but I found his take
level-headed.
The raw thermodynamics of tankless -- esp. gas tankless -- puts one
big strike against tankless from the gitgo.

Funny how tankless heaters have been around for more than 50 years in
Europe and are the primary mode of providing hot water to households
One has to wonder why something that has had 50+ years of daily usage in
a large parts of the world would allegedly be so far back technically as
the author claims.

Do you mean tankless for *central* water heating in Europe? I do recall
some people having what was called a "Geyser" (trade name?) over the
kitchen sink when I was a child in the UK, but I don't know whether they
had any other hot-water supply for other rooms.

The only water heaters my family ever had were associated with an
always-burning solid-fuel stove (an "Aga") or later a gas-fired boiler
for central heating and hot-water supply, with an electric element in
the storage tank for use in the summer.

Perce

I've noticed in pictures, a water heater inside the bathroom showers of
places in Europe. It appeared to be an electric unit right above the
shower head. ^_^

TDD

that's generally the hold house/apt water heater. time to get to the
shower head is minimal, but can take longer to get elsewhere in the
house. since these are retrofitted to very old places, that's frequently
one of the only places it can go.

When I was a kid, my grand parents lived in the 2nd floor of a house. Took
near to forever for the hot water to get up from the cellar. I'm sure they
would have benefitted from an instant.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"chaniarts" wrote in message
...

I've noticed in pictures, a water heater inside the bathroom showers of
places in Europe. It appeared to be an electric unit right above the
shower head. ^_^

TDD

that's generally the hold house/apt water heater. time to get to the
shower head is minimal, but can take longer to get elsewhere in the
house. since these are retrofitted to very old places, that's frequently
one of the only places it can go.

On Thursday, January 31, 2013 12:18:10 PM UTC-8, chaniarts wrote:
On 1/31/2013 12:22 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:

On 1/31/2013 12:58 PM, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:

On 01/31/13 10:25 am, Attila Iskander wrote:



http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pag...r-heaters.html









Now, this guy sells anodes'n'**** for tanks, but I found his take

level-headed.

The raw thermodynamics of tankless -- esp. gas tankless -- puts one

big strike against tankless from the gitgo.



Funny how tankless heaters have been around for more than 50 years in

Europe and are the primary mode of providing hot water to households

One has to wonder why something that has had 50+ years of daily usage in

a large parts of the world would allegedly be so far back technically as

the author claims.



Do you mean tankless for *central* water heating in Europe? I do recall

some people having what was called a "Geyser" (trade name?) over the

kitchen sink when I was a child in the UK, but I don't know whether they

had any other hot-water supply for other rooms.



The only water heaters my family ever had were associated with an

always-burning solid-fuel stove (an "Aga") or later a gas-fired boiler

for central heating and hot-water supply, with an electric element in

the storage tank for use in the summer.



Perce



I've noticed in pictures, a water heater inside the bathroom showers of

places in Europe. It appeared to be an electric unit right above the

shower head. ^_^



TDD



that's generally the hold house/apt water heater. time to get to the

shower head is minimal, but can take longer to get elsewhere in the

house. since these are retrofitted to very old places, that's frequently

one of the only places it can go.

That’s usually because they have their balconies closed-off to make more living space and they can’t afford to have a plumber run lines to it anyway let alone have the lines enclosed so that the apartment doesn’t look like a machine room. The really funny thing is when they come to the U.S. they usually buy the same type of dinky condos that they left behind. Un-f’n-believable.

On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 13:18:10 -0700, chaniarts
wrote:

On 1/31/2013 12:22 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 1/31/2013 12:58 PM, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
On 01/31/13 10:25 am, Attila Iskander wrote:

http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pag...r-heaters.html




Now, this guy sells anodes'n'**** for tanks, but I found his take
level-headed.
The raw thermodynamics of tankless -- esp. gas tankless -- puts one
big strike against tankless from the gitgo.

Funny how tankless heaters have been around for more than 50 years in
Europe and are the primary mode of providing hot water to households
One has to wonder why something that has had 50+ years of daily usage in
a large parts of the world would allegedly be so far back technically as
the author claims.

Do you mean tankless for *central* water heating in Europe? I do recall
some people having what was called a "Geyser" (trade name?) over the
kitchen sink when I was a child in the UK, but I don't know whether they
had any other hot-water supply for other rooms.

The only water heaters my family ever had were associated with an
always-burning solid-fuel stove (an "Aga") or later a gas-fired boiler
for central heating and hot-water supply, with an electric element in
the storage tank for use in the summer.

Perce

I've noticed in pictures, a water heater inside the bathroom showers of
places in Europe. It appeared to be an electric unit right above the
shower head. ^_^

TDD

that's generally the hold house/apt water heater. time to get to the
shower head is minimal, but can take longer to get elsewhere in the
house. since these are retrofitted to very old places, that's frequently
one of the only places it can go.
Many of them are POU heaters - "point of use" - they do not supply
hot water anywhere else.

Quite often a small tank or tankless POU under the sink in the kitchen
too. MOST hold about a gallon of heated water in reserve

On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 13:22:11 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 1/31/2013 12:58 PM, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
On 01/31/13 10:25 am, Attila Iskander wrote:

http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pag...r-heaters.html



Now, this guy sells anodes'n'**** for tanks, but I found his take
level-headed.
The raw thermodynamics of tankless -- esp. gas tankless -- puts one
big strike against tankless from the gitgo.

Funny how tankless heaters have been around for more than 50 years in
Europe and are the primary mode of providing hot water to households
One has to wonder why something that has had 50+ years of daily usage in
a large parts of the world would allegedly be so far back technically as
the author claims.

Do you mean tankless for *central* water heating in Europe? I do recall
some people having what was called a "Geyser" (trade name?) over the
kitchen sink when I was a child in the UK, but I don't know whether they
had any other hot-water supply for other rooms.

The only water heaters my family ever had were associated with an
always-burning solid-fuel stove (an "Aga") or later a gas-fired boiler
for central heating and hot-water supply, with an electric element in
the storage tank for use in the summer.

Perce

I've noticed in pictures, a water heater inside the bathroom showers of
places in Europe. It appeared to be an electric unit right above the
shower head. ^_^

TDD
AKA "the widowmaker". They used to be common in the caribean too. I
think they have been pretty well outlawed in most "civilized"
countries. Either that or the've been mandated to use GFI breakers -
which means most will give you a cold shower anyway.

On 1/31/2013 10:25 AM, Attila Iskander wrote:

"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...

http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pag...r-heaters.html


Now, this guy sells anodes'n'**** for tanks, but I found his take
level-headed.
The raw thermodynamics of tankless -- esp. gas tankless -- puts one
big strike against tankless from the gitgo.


Funny how tankless heaters have been around for more than 50 years in
Europe and are the primary mode of providing hot water to households
One has to wonder why something that has had 50+ years of daily
usage in a large parts of the world would allegedly be so far back
technically as the author claims.


Its a piece that caters to people who don't reason things out on their
own. Many people like to be told what to think rather than reasoning it
out on their own. The writer presents some bogus arguments that resonate
with the reader and it becomes gospel.

They are also used very extensively in Asia for a similar period and
with similar good results. Same is true of the so called "mini-split"
A/C and combo A/C heat pump systems. You see them all over Asia but yet
the they were mindlessly declared to be silly by many when they appeared
here.



There are TWO reasons why the tankless are still expensive to buy and
install:
1) They are relatively new and unknown here, with not much demand for
them yet
2) They are going against what has been the norm during the 50+
years. Change is slow
I should also mention that there is resistance from the plumbing
establishment, who are being challenged in their "control" zones.