On Tue, 6 Nov 2012 14:02:48 -0500, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

Holy ****, I think he was.... but for the wrong reasons, of course. He
was bitching about tripping over extension cords and fires or some other
dumb **** (regarding car inverters), whereas the problems are really more
fundamental.

So this protracted wrangling of mine, over car/battery inverters vs. trad'l
gensets, has been solved:
I ordered BOTH.... LOL
But the "real working solution" seems to be a genset, in this case a
tri-fuel.

The inverter thing *could* work, but from other recent threads, it seems
that this strat just turns into a bear.
I did order two inverters (1500 and 2500 W cobras) to experiment with, but
not nec. for house power -- altho when I set it up, I'll screw around with
that as well.

The inverters will work, but to do that part right you really need a
SERIOUS battery bank at home. Call the battery distributors in your
area, ideally you get 6 large Tank Cells in series, 200AH is easy, you
can find 4,000AH if you search a little. All you need is a make or
buy a rack to keep them off the floor, and from falling over in an
earthquake.

And there's the serious quantity of battery power to run your inverter
in the evening for the little stuff that must have 120V like the TV
and a few selected small appliances.

And as many of those as you can should run direct off the 12V battery
string - Lights and a fan to stir the heat from the Wood Stove or
Gravity Wall Furnace are easy. You can get TV sets meant for
Motorhomes that have a 12V input also.

Oh, and the 12V batteries can run a High Water Alarm for the basement,
a High Temp alarm for the freezer and refrigerator, or a Freeze Alarm
for the house and garage, in case you have to get up and crank the
generator for a while.

Then you run the generator a few times during the day and charge the
big deep-cycle batteries back up, run the refrigerator, microwave,
coffeepot, freezer, furnace and well pump.

What I finally did was order one of these:
http://www.generatorsales.com/order/...sp?page=H04599
and one of these:
http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/Ca...001_0306020503

so's I can run the unit inside.

You can run the generator inside, for certain quantities of
"inside"...

I would STRONGLY suggest you build a separate "Generator Room" off
the side of the house and near the Main Power Panel that is sealed
from the inside of the house - No chance of a fire or CO getting
through.

Drywalled on the inside as a firestop, large vent grilles low and high
(or through the roof) for natural ventilation at all times - put a
turbine ventilator on the stack and let the breeze help. Get a 120V
attic exhaust fan on the outlet to get positive airflow when the
generator is running.

Connect your flex exhaust tubing up to a 3" B-Vent riser and roof jack
to get the exhaust out up high, anyone looking from the street will
think 'heater' not 'generator'.

The unit I ordered is actually a tri-fuel, but it has no gas tank, but can
siphon from any container, which is pretty neat.

You can put that gas tank on the outside, or in a separated room
sealed from the generator so the fumes can't get through, where you
can refuel with it running.

Don't even THINK of burying the fuel tank. I'd get a double-wall
above-ground tank and put it outside the room - something like the
double-wall McMaster 3696K71 if you want to be paranoid, or the
37415K55 single-wall if you want to build a dike containment pan to
sit it in. But a large Propane tank is much easier to pull off.

The total bill is $3K, MUCH more than I wanted to spend (PLUS my stolen $1K
BlackMax -- goodgawd), but bottom line, this Sandy thing just spooked me big
time, PLUS this being the 3rd major weather event around here in 1.5 years.
I've lucked out in all three, but that's all it was, luck.

Now, this unit may not be for everyone, and here are some of the
pro's/con's.

Like virtually all "affordable" units, this thing will sound like a goddamm
lawnmower -- don't listen to those bull**** decibel claims.
A true automotive muffler might help (either replacing the original, or
placed in series with the existing) can help a bit, but a sound-proofed
enclosure box is a better (albeit more troublesome) solution. If you want
an intrinsically quiiet unit, quiet will double, triple the price at a given
wattage, eg, the Honda EU series.

Build a little room for it, then sound is not an issue. And it'll
make it a lot harder to steal, too.

Tri-fuel, imo, is Da Bomb, makes the unit very versatile, I can throw it on
m'truck anytime, for whatever -- not for camping, tho, too noisy, unless you
build a really good box. Car inverters would proly be better for camping,
it would seem.
But for long outages, natural gas is *by far* the best way to go, followed
by propane, then gasoline.

That's a bit big to "throw" on the truck - far better to build it in,
and get another truly portable one.

15 kW is proly more than most people need, but I have sizable sq ft and a
shop, so I figgered I might as well just take the plunge.

Vic Smith is very right about the cost/benefit/probability considerations,
and no doubt I "overpaid" in this regard, but I really got spooked this
time, and the utilities are telling people, flat out, they're not getting
power 'til Nov 15...... at best.
Holy ****.... Dat easily coulda been me. My rich ****head neighbors
(bunches of them) were without power for a full week. The MAYOR is without
power, in a city of 200,000++ ... !!!!
I believe that like the Halloween snow storm, some people will be without
power for a month.

You would not, without some kind of custom adatper, be able to install that
flex hose above, whereas on the unit I ordered, it (theoretically) clamps
right on the muffler flange.

If it was mine, I'd look at a steel Camlock fitting - you can make an
adapter on the tailpipe of the generator for a male Camlock, then a
Female with a hose barb to go into the steel flex tubing. A little
High Temp Silicone to replace the Buna gaskets, and it should be good
to go.

Or just give up and make a semi-permanent adapter.

"Bruce L. Bergman (munged human readable)"
wrote in message
...
On Tue, 6 Nov 2012 14:02:48 -0500, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

Holy ****, I think he was.... but for the wrong reasons, of course. He
was bitching about tripping over extension cords and fires or some other
dumb **** (regarding car inverters), whereas the problems are really more
fundamental.

So this protracted wrangling of mine, over car/battery inverters vs.
trad'l
gensets, has been solved:
I ordered BOTH.... LOL
But the "real working solution" seems to be a genset, in this case a
tri-fuel.

The inverter thing *could* work, but from other recent threads, it seems
that this strat just turns into a bear.
I did order two inverters (1500 and 2500 W cobras) to experiment with, but
not nec. for house power -- altho when I set it up, I'll screw around with
that as well.

The inverters will work, but to do that part right you really need a
SERIOUS battery bank at home. Call the battery distributors in your
area, ideally you get 6 large Tank Cells in series, 200AH is easy, you
can find 4,000AH if you search a little. All you need is a make or
buy a rack to keep them off the floor, and from falling over in an
earthquake.

And there's the serious quantity of battery power to run your inverter
in the evening for the little stuff that must have 120V like the TV
and a few selected small appliances.

And as many of those as you can should run direct off the 12V battery
string - Lights and a fan to stir the heat from the Wood Stove or
Gravity Wall Furnace are easy. You can get TV sets meant for
Motorhomes that have a 12V input also.

Oh, and the 12V batteries can run a High Water Alarm for the basement,
a High Temp alarm for the freezer and refrigerator, or a Freeze Alarm
for the house and garage, in case you have to get up and crank the
generator for a while.

Then you run the generator a few times during the day and charge the
big deep-cycle batteries back up, run the refrigerator, microwave,
coffeepot, freezer, furnace and well pump.

What I finally did was order one of these:
http://www.generatorsales.com/order/...sp?page=H04599
and one of these:
http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/Ca...001_0306020503

so's I can run the unit inside.

You can run the generator inside, for certain quantities of
"inside"...

I would STRONGLY suggest you build a separate "Generator Room" off
the side of the house and near the Main Power Panel that is sealed
from the inside of the house - No chance of a fire or CO getting
through.

Drywalled on the inside as a firestop, large vent grilles low and high
(or through the roof) for natural ventilation at all times - put a
turbine ventilator on the stack and let the breeze help. Get a 120V
attic exhaust fan on the outlet to get positive airflow when the
generator is running.

Connect your flex exhaust tubing up to a 3" B-Vent riser and roof jack
to get the exhaust out up high, anyone looking from the street will
think 'heater' not 'generator'.

The unit I ordered is actually a tri-fuel, but it has no gas tank, but can
siphon from any container, which is pretty neat.

You can put that gas tank on the outside, or in a separated room
sealed from the generator so the fumes can't get through, where you
can refuel with it running.

Don't even THINK of burying the fuel tank. I'd get a double-wall
above-ground tank and put it outside the room - something like the
double-wall McMaster 3696K71 if you want to be paranoid, or the
37415K55 single-wall if you want to build a dike containment pan to
sit it in. But a large Propane tank is much easier to pull off.

The total bill is $3K, MUCH more than I wanted to spend (PLUS my stolen
$1K
BlackMax -- goodgawd), but bottom line, this Sandy thing just spooked me
big
time, PLUS this being the 3rd major weather event around here in 1.5
years.
I've lucked out in all three, but that's all it was, luck.

Now, this unit may not be for everyone, and here are some of the
pro's/con's.

Like virtually all "affordable" units, this thing will sound like a
goddamm
lawnmower -- don't listen to those bull**** decibel claims.
A true automotive muffler might help (either replacing the original, or
placed in series with the existing) can help a bit, but a sound-proofed
enclosure box is a better (albeit more troublesome) solution. If you want
an intrinsically quiiet unit, quiet will double, triple the price at a
given
wattage, eg, the Honda EU series.

Build a little room for it, then sound is not an issue. And it'll
make it a lot harder to steal, too.

Tri-fuel, imo, is Da Bomb, makes the unit very versatile, I can throw it
on
m'truck anytime, for whatever -- not for camping, tho, too noisy, unless
you
build a really good box. Car inverters would proly be better for camping,
it would seem.
But for long outages, natural gas is *by far* the best way to go, followed
by propane, then gasoline.

That's a bit big to "throw" on the truck - far better to build it in,
and get another truly portable one.

15 kW is proly more than most people need, but I have sizable sq ft and a
shop, so I figgered I might as well just take the plunge.

Vic Smith is very right about the cost/benefit/probability considerations,
and no doubt I "overpaid" in this regard, but I really got spooked this
time, and the utilities are telling people, flat out, they're not getting
power 'til Nov 15...... at best.
Holy ****.... Dat easily coulda been me. My rich ****head neighbors
(bunches of them) were without power for a full week. The MAYOR is
without
power, in a city of 200,000++ ... !!!!
I believe that like the Halloween snow storm, some people will be without
power for a month.

You would not, without some kind of custom adatper, be able to install
that
flex hose above, whereas on the unit I ordered, it (theoretically) clamps
right on the muffler flange.

If it was mine, I'd look at a steel Camlock fitting - you can make an
adapter on the tailpipe of the generator for a male Camlock, then a
Female with a hose barb to go into the steel flex tubing. A little
High Temp Silicone to replace the Buna gaskets, and it should be good
to go.

Or just give up and make a semi-permanent adapter.

I'm fooling around with an inverter/battery setup now, in m'truck, a big
marine battery, 115 Ahr.
Not the easiest thing to make seamless. Inverters seem to be a bit quirky,
and altho charging it from the car is not rocket science, it's still dicey
to implement -- simply running wires from the engine compartment to the
passenger cabin is a pita. And apparently this charging stuff sends too
much current for the ciggie lighter.... no breaks, no breaks.

WHERE to put the marine battery, or even more importantly, where to charge
it, is an issue as well.
No free lunch, apparently..... not even a cheap lunch.

The battery bank thing is proly more for solar people, part of an ongoing
operating functioning system.
For me, for these sporadic (but traumatic) events, I'll then be stuck
"tending" and charging these huge battery banks *forever*. Not to mention,
proly not cheap, either.
The genset seems to be the more practical compromise, in this case. And not
cheap either.

As far as the genset install goes, I'll be very careful about the
inside-install, with CO monitors up the ass. I'm not against outside, and
may just keep it inside for monthly testing, and hump it outside for a real
outage. No big biggie.
One thing, either inside or outside, I'll shut it down for the night, in any
prolonged outage. Whether inside or outside, I'll be building a sound box
for it. I hope my effing neighbors do the same.... but I doubt they will.

I plan on storing gasoline, but not for the genset (which is nat. gas), just
to avert another gas shortage at the pumps. I'm thinking a 55 gal drum (or
two) or just stack a bunch of 5 gal pails with pour-lids.
It's all a pita, esp if it is true that gas really goes bad. I'll have to
look into stabilizers/antioxidants for long-term storage, so I don't have
the headache of cycling the stuff every 6 mos or so.

It's, like, a part-time job being a prepper!! LOL
--
EA

On Thu, 08 Nov 2012 11:13:42 -0800, "Bruce L. Bergman (munged human
readable)" wrote:

On Tue, 6 Nov 2012 14:02:48 -0500, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

Holy ****, I think he was.... but for the wrong reasons, of course. He
was bitching about tripping over extension cords and fires or some other
dumb **** (regarding car inverters), whereas the problems are really more
fundamental.

So this protracted wrangling of mine, over car/battery inverters vs. trad'l
gensets, has been solved:
I ordered BOTH.... LOL
But the "real working solution" seems to be a genset, in this case a
tri-fuel.

The inverter thing *could* work, but from other recent threads, it seems
that this strat just turns into a bear.
I did order two inverters (1500 and 2500 W cobras) to experiment with, but
not nec. for house power -- altho when I set it up, I'll screw around with
that as well.

The inverters will work, but to do that part right you really need a
SERIOUS battery bank at home. Call the battery distributors in your
area, ideally you get 6 large Tank Cells in series, 200AH is easy, you
can find 4,000AH if you search a little. All you need is a make or
buy a rack to keep them off the floor, and from falling over in an
earthquake.

And there's the serious quantity of battery power to run your inverter
in the evening for the little stuff that must have 120V like the TV
and a few selected small appliances.

And as many of those as you can should run direct off the 12V battery
string - Lights and a fan to stir the heat from the Wood Stove or
Gravity Wall Furnace are easy. You can get TV sets meant for
Motorhomes that have a 12V input also.

Oh, and the 12V batteries can run a High Water Alarm for the basement,
a High Temp alarm for the freezer and refrigerator, or a Freeze Alarm
for the house and garage, in case you have to get up and crank the
generator for a while.

Then you run the generator a few times during the day and charge the
big deep-cycle batteries back up, run the refrigerator, microwave,
coffeepot, freezer, furnace and well pump.

What I finally did was order one of these:
http://www.generatorsales.com/order/...sp?page=H04599
and one of these:
http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/Ca...001_0306020503

so's I can run the unit inside.

You can run the generator inside, for certain quantities of
"inside"...

I would STRONGLY suggest you build a separate "Generator Room" off
the side of the house and near the Main Power Panel that is sealed
from the inside of the house - No chance of a fire or CO getting
through.

Drywalled on the inside as a firestop, large vent grilles low and high
(or through the roof) for natural ventilation at all times - put a
turbine ventilator on the stack and let the breeze help. Get a 120V
attic exhaust fan on the outlet to get positive airflow when the
generator is running.

Connect your flex exhaust tubing up to a 3" B-Vent riser and roof jack
to get the exhaust out up high, anyone looking from the street will
think 'heater' not 'generator'.

The unit I ordered is actually a tri-fuel, but it has no gas tank, but can
siphon from any container, which is pretty neat.

You can put that gas tank on the outside, or in a separated room
sealed from the generator so the fumes can't get through, where you
can refuel with it running.

Don't even THINK of burying the fuel tank. I'd get a double-wall
above-ground tank and put it outside the room - something like the
double-wall McMaster 3696K71 if you want to be paranoid, or the
37415K55 single-wall if you want to build a dike containment pan to
sit it in. But a large Propane tank is much easier to pull off.

The total bill is $3K, MUCH more than I wanted to spend (PLUS my stolen $1K
BlackMax -- goodgawd), but bottom line, this Sandy thing just spooked me big
time, PLUS this being the 3rd major weather event around here in 1.5 years.
I've lucked out in all three, but that's all it was, luck.

Now, this unit may not be for everyone, and here are some of the
pro's/con's.

Like virtually all "affordable" units, this thing will sound like a goddamm
lawnmower -- don't listen to those bull**** decibel claims.
A true automotive muffler might help (either replacing the original, or
placed in series with the existing) can help a bit, but a sound-proofed
enclosure box is a better (albeit more troublesome) solution. If you want
an intrinsically quiiet unit, quiet will double, triple the price at a given
wattage, eg, the Honda EU series.

Build a little room for it, then sound is not an issue. And it'll
make it a lot harder to steal, too.

Tri-fuel, imo, is Da Bomb, makes the unit very versatile, I can throw it on
m'truck anytime, for whatever -- not for camping, tho, too noisy, unless you
build a really good box. Car inverters would proly be better for camping,
it would seem.
But for long outages, natural gas is *by far* the best way to go, followed
by propane, then gasoline.

That's a bit big to "throw" on the truck - far better to build it in,
and get another truly portable one.

15 kW is proly more than most people need, but I have sizable sq ft and a
shop, so I figgered I might as well just take the plunge.

Vic Smith is very right about the cost/benefit/probability considerations,
and no doubt I "overpaid" in this regard, but I really got spooked this
time, and the utilities are telling people, flat out, they're not getting
power 'til Nov 15...... at best.
Holy ****.... Dat easily coulda been me. My rich ****head neighbors
(bunches of them) were without power for a full week. The MAYOR is without
power, in a city of 200,000++ ... !!!!
I believe that like the Halloween snow storm, some people will be without
power for a month.

You would not, without some kind of custom adatper, be able to install that
flex hose above, whereas on the unit I ordered, it (theoretically) clamps
right on the muffler flange.

If it was mine, I'd look at a steel Camlock fitting - you can make an
adapter on the tailpipe of the generator for a male Camlock, then a
Female with a hose barb to go into the steel flex tubing. A little
High Temp Silicone to replace the Buna gaskets, and it should be good
to go.

Or just give up and make a semi-permanent adapter.


Good post!

Gunner

--
""The Democratic constituency is just like a herd of cows. All you have
to do is lay out enough silage and they come running. That’s why I
became an operative working with Democrats. With Democrats all you
have to do is make a lot of noise, lay out the hay, and be ready to
use the ole cattle prod in case a few want to bolt the herd.

Eighty percent of the people who call themselves Democrats don’t have
a clue as to political reality.
What amazes me is that you could take a group of people who are hard
workers and convince them that they should support social programs
that were the exact opposite of their own personal convictions. Put a
little fear here and there and you can get people to vote any way you
want.

The voter is basically dumb and lazy. The reason I became a Democratic
operative instead of a Republican was because there were more
Democrats that didn’t have a clue than there were Republicans."
James Carvell, DNC operative

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 08 Nov 2012 11:13:42 -0800, "Bruce L. Bergman (munged human
readable)" wrote:

On Tue, 6 Nov 2012 14:02:48 -0500, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

Holy ****, I think he was.... but for the wrong reasons, of course. He
was bitching about tripping over extension cords and fires or some other
dumb **** (regarding car inverters), whereas the problems are really more
fundamental.

So this protracted wrangling of mine, over car/battery inverters vs.
trad'l
gensets, has been solved:
I ordered BOTH.... LOL
But the "real working solution" seems to be a genset, in this case a
tri-fuel.

The inverter thing *could* work, but from other recent threads, it seems
that this strat just turns into a bear.
I did order two inverters (1500 and 2500 W cobras) to experiment with,
but
not nec. for house power -- altho when I set it up, I'll screw around
with
that as well.

The inverters will work, but to do that part right you really need a
SERIOUS battery bank at home. Call the battery distributors in your
area, ideally you get 6 large Tank Cells in series, 200AH is easy, you
can find 4,000AH if you search a little. All you need is a make or
buy a rack to keep them off the floor, and from falling over in an
earthquake.

And there's the serious quantity of battery power to run your inverter
in the evening for the little stuff that must have 120V like the TV
and a few selected small appliances.

And as many of those as you can should run direct off the 12V battery
string - Lights and a fan to stir the heat from the Wood Stove or
Gravity Wall Furnace are easy. You can get TV sets meant for
Motorhomes that have a 12V input also.

Oh, and the 12V batteries can run a High Water Alarm for the basement,
a High Temp alarm for the freezer and refrigerator, or a Freeze Alarm
for the house and garage, in case you have to get up and crank the
generator for a while.

Then you run the generator a few times during the day and charge the
big deep-cycle batteries back up, run the refrigerator, microwave,
coffeepot, freezer, furnace and well pump.

What I finally did was order one of these:
http://www.generatorsales.com/order/...sp?page=H04599
and one of these:
http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/Ca...001_0306020503

so's I can run the unit inside.

You can run the generator inside, for certain quantities of
"inside"...

I would STRONGLY suggest you build a separate "Generator Room" off
the side of the house and near the Main Power Panel that is sealed
from the inside of the house - No chance of a fire or CO getting
through.

Drywalled on the inside as a firestop, large vent grilles low and high
(or through the roof) for natural ventilation at all times - put a
turbine ventilator on the stack and let the breeze help. Get a 120V
attic exhaust fan on the outlet to get positive airflow when the
generator is running.

Connect your flex exhaust tubing up to a 3" B-Vent riser and roof jack
to get the exhaust out up high, anyone looking from the street will
think 'heater' not 'generator'.

The unit I ordered is actually a tri-fuel, but it has no gas tank, but
can
siphon from any container, which is pretty neat.

You can put that gas tank on the outside, or in a separated room
sealed from the generator so the fumes can't get through, where you
can refuel with it running.

Don't even THINK of burying the fuel tank. I'd get a double-wall
above-ground tank and put it outside the room - something like the
double-wall McMaster 3696K71 if you want to be paranoid, or the
37415K55 single-wall if you want to build a dike containment pan to
sit it in. But a large Propane tank is much easier to pull off.

The total bill is $3K, MUCH more than I wanted to spend (PLUS my stolen
$1K
BlackMax -- goodgawd), but bottom line, this Sandy thing just spooked me
big
time, PLUS this being the 3rd major weather event around here in 1.5
years.
I've lucked out in all three, but that's all it was, luck.

Now, this unit may not be for everyone, and here are some of the
pro's/con's.

Like virtually all "affordable" units, this thing will sound like a
goddamm
lawnmower -- don't listen to those bull**** decibel claims.
A true automotive muffler might help (either replacing the original, or
placed in series with the existing) can help a bit, but a sound-proofed
enclosure box is a better (albeit more troublesome) solution. If you
want
an intrinsically quiiet unit, quiet will double, triple the price at a
given
wattage, eg, the Honda EU series.

Build a little room for it, then sound is not an issue. And it'll
make it a lot harder to steal, too.

Tri-fuel, imo, is Da Bomb, makes the unit very versatile, I can throw it
on
m'truck anytime, for whatever -- not for camping, tho, too noisy, unless
you
build a really good box. Car inverters would proly be better for
camping,
it would seem.
But for long outages, natural gas is *by far* the best way to go,
followed
by propane, then gasoline.

That's a bit big to "throw" on the truck - far better to build it in,
and get another truly portable one.

15 kW is proly more than most people need, but I have sizable sq ft and a
shop, so I figgered I might as well just take the plunge.

Vic Smith is very right about the cost/benefit/probability
considerations,
and no doubt I "overpaid" in this regard, but I really got spooked this
time, and the utilities are telling people, flat out, they're not getting
power 'til Nov 15...... at best.
Holy ****.... Dat easily coulda been me. My rich ****head neighbors
(bunches of them) were without power for a full week. The MAYOR is
without
power, in a city of 200,000++ ... !!!!
I believe that like the Halloween snow storm, some people will be without
power for a month.

You would not, without some kind of custom adatper, be able to install
that
flex hose above, whereas on the unit I ordered, it (theoretically) clamps
right on the muffler flange.

If it was mine, I'd look at a steel Camlock fitting - you can make an
adapter on the tailpipe of the generator for a male Camlock, then a
Female with a hose barb to go into the steel flex tubing. A little
High Temp Silicone to replace the Buna gaskets, and it should be good
to go.

Or just give up and make a semi-permanent adapter.


Good post!

Always +1. Some of the other assholes around here should take note.
--
EA


Gunner

--
""The Democratic constituency is just like a herd of cows. All you have
to do is lay out enough silage and they come running. That's why I
became an operative working with Democrats. With Democrats all you
have to do is make a lot of noise, lay out the hay, and be ready to
use the ole cattle prod in case a few want to bolt the herd.

Eighty percent of the people who call themselves Democrats don't have
a clue as to political reality.
What amazes me is that you could take a group of people who are hard
workers and convince them that they should support social programs
that were the exact opposite of their own personal convictions. Put a
little fear here and there and you can get people to vote any way you
want.

The voter is basically dumb and lazy. The reason I became a Democratic
operative instead of a Republican was because there were more
Democrats that didn't have a clue than there were Republicans."
James Carvell, DNC operative

On Thu, 08 Nov 2012 13:42:58 -0800, Gunner
wrote:

Good post!

Hey, remember where I spent my formative youth - in the Granada Hills
C.O. generator room drooling at the Genset - Mitsubishi V-16 quad
turbo Tugboat engine and a generator head 48" across and long - 750 KW
continuous at 277/480V, 1 MW surge. Radiator up on the roof. Four 8D
batteries in series/parallel.

GTE/Verizon knows how to build a Generator Room.

Well, except for Sunland where back in the Forties California Water &
Telephone had put the fuel tank in the Uphill side of the parking lot
way above the generator in the Basement, and in the 70's a fuel supply
hose to the Day Tank broke and the resulting siphon action half
flooded the basement with #2 Diesel...

They dug a huge crater in the parking lot to get the top of the tank
below the floor of the basement - and Sunland is all built on alluvial
free-running sand, and true to form it started free-running...

After the rapidly expanding crater chewed up all the asphalt for 60
feet and headed for the property lines, they filled the crater with
50+ truckloads of One-Sack Slurry and let it set, and tried again.

The second time the top layer of Slurry held, but when they got below
the plug the sand tried running out from underneath again - Fill it up
with slurry again...

The third time (or was it fourth?) the slurry held the last of the
sand back long enough to pour a concrete bathtub with 25' walls, and
strap down the new fiberglass tank. Topped off with ~16 - 18 feet of
pea gravel.

-- Bruce --

On Thu, 8 Nov 2012 21:40:09 -0500, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 08 Nov 2012 11:13:42 -0800, "Bruce L. Bergman (munged human
readable)" wrote:

On Tue, 6 Nov 2012 14:02:48 -0500, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

Holy ****, I think he was.... but for the wrong reasons, of course. He
was bitching about tripping over extension cords and fires or some other
dumb **** (regarding car inverters), whereas the problems are really more
fundamental.

So this protracted wrangling of mine, over car/battery inverters vs.
trad'l
gensets, has been solved:
I ordered BOTH.... LOL
But the "real working solution" seems to be a genset, in this case a
tri-fuel.

The inverter thing *could* work, but from other recent threads, it seems
that this strat just turns into a bear.
I did order two inverters (1500 and 2500 W cobras) to experiment with,
but
not nec. for house power -- altho when I set it up, I'll screw around
with
that as well.

The inverters will work, but to do that part right you really need a
SERIOUS battery bank at home. Call the battery distributors in your
area, ideally you get 6 large Tank Cells in series, 200AH is easy, you
can find 4,000AH if you search a little. All you need is a make or
buy a rack to keep them off the floor, and from falling over in an
earthquake.

And there's the serious quantity of battery power to run your inverter
in the evening for the little stuff that must have 120V like the TV
and a few selected small appliances.

And as many of those as you can should run direct off the 12V battery
string - Lights and a fan to stir the heat from the Wood Stove or
Gravity Wall Furnace are easy. You can get TV sets meant for
Motorhomes that have a 12V input also.

Oh, and the 12V batteries can run a High Water Alarm for the basement,
a High Temp alarm for the freezer and refrigerator, or a Freeze Alarm
for the house and garage, in case you have to get up and crank the
generator for a while.

Then you run the generator a few times during the day and charge the
big deep-cycle batteries back up, run the refrigerator, microwave,
coffeepot, freezer, furnace and well pump.

What I finally did was order one of these:
http://www.generatorsales.com/order/...sp?page=H04599
and one of these:
http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/Ca...001_0306020503

so's I can run the unit inside.

You can run the generator inside, for certain quantities of
"inside"...

I would STRONGLY suggest you build a separate "Generator Room" off
the side of the house and near the Main Power Panel that is sealed
from the inside of the house - No chance of a fire or CO getting
through.

Drywalled on the inside as a firestop, large vent grilles low and high
(or through the roof) for natural ventilation at all times - put a
turbine ventilator on the stack and let the breeze help. Get a 120V
attic exhaust fan on the outlet to get positive airflow when the
generator is running.

Connect your flex exhaust tubing up to a 3" B-Vent riser and roof jack
to get the exhaust out up high, anyone looking from the street will
think 'heater' not 'generator'.

The unit I ordered is actually a tri-fuel, but it has no gas tank, but
can
siphon from any container, which is pretty neat.

You can put that gas tank on the outside, or in a separated room
sealed from the generator so the fumes can't get through, where you
can refuel with it running.

Don't even THINK of burying the fuel tank. I'd get a double-wall
above-ground tank and put it outside the room - something like the
double-wall McMaster 3696K71 if you want to be paranoid, or the
37415K55 single-wall if you want to build a dike containment pan to
sit it in. But a large Propane tank is much easier to pull off.

The total bill is $3K, MUCH more than I wanted to spend (PLUS my stolen
$1K
BlackMax -- goodgawd), but bottom line, this Sandy thing just spooked me
big
time, PLUS this being the 3rd major weather event around here in 1.5
years.
I've lucked out in all three, but that's all it was, luck.

Now, this unit may not be for everyone, and here are some of the
pro's/con's.

Like virtually all "affordable" units, this thing will sound like a
goddamm
lawnmower -- don't listen to those bull**** decibel claims.
A true automotive muffler might help (either replacing the original, or
placed in series with the existing) can help a bit, but a sound-proofed
enclosure box is a better (albeit more troublesome) solution. If you
want
an intrinsically quiiet unit, quiet will double, triple the price at a
given
wattage, eg, the Honda EU series.

Build a little room for it, then sound is not an issue. And it'll
make it a lot harder to steal, too.

Tri-fuel, imo, is Da Bomb, makes the unit very versatile, I can throw it
on
m'truck anytime, for whatever -- not for camping, tho, too noisy, unless
you
build a really good box. Car inverters would proly be better for
camping,
it would seem.
But for long outages, natural gas is *by far* the best way to go,
followed
by propane, then gasoline.

That's a bit big to "throw" on the truck - far better to build it in,
and get another truly portable one.

15 kW is proly more than most people need, but I have sizable sq ft and a
shop, so I figgered I might as well just take the plunge.

Vic Smith is very right about the cost/benefit/probability
considerations,
and no doubt I "overpaid" in this regard, but I really got spooked this
time, and the utilities are telling people, flat out, they're not getting
power 'til Nov 15...... at best.
Holy ****.... Dat easily coulda been me. My rich ****head neighbors
(bunches of them) were without power for a full week. The MAYOR is
without
power, in a city of 200,000++ ... !!!!
I believe that like the Halloween snow storm, some people will be without
power for a month.

You would not, without some kind of custom adatper, be able to install
that
flex hose above, whereas on the unit I ordered, it (theoretically) clamps
right on the muffler flange.

If it was mine, I'd look at a steel Camlock fitting - you can make an
adapter on the tailpipe of the generator for a male Camlock, then a
Female with a hose barb to go into the steel flex tubing. A little
High Temp Silicone to replace the Buna gaskets, and it should be good
to go.

Or just give up and make a semi-permanent adapter.


Good post!

Always +1. Some of the other assholes around here should take note.


No...its seldom good posts from you. Which is why I congratulated you
on the rare one. Stick to hardware. You are a dunce politically.


Gunner.


--
""The Democratic constituency is just like a herd of cows. All you have
to do is lay out enough silage and they come running. That’s why I
became an operative working with Democrats. With Democrats all you
have to do is make a lot of noise, lay out the hay, and be ready to
use the ole cattle prod in case a few want to bolt the herd.

Eighty percent of the people who call themselves Democrats don’t have
a clue as to political reality.
What amazes me is that you could take a group of people who are hard
workers and convince them that they should support social programs
that were the exact opposite of their own personal convictions. Put a
little fear here and there and you can get people to vote any way you
want.

The voter is basically dumb and lazy. The reason I became a Democratic
operative instead of a Republican was because there were more
Democrats that didn’t have a clue than there were Republicans."
James Carvell, DNC operative

On Nov 8, 3:45*pm, "Existential Angst" wrote:
"Bruce L. Bergman (munged human wrote in message

...





On Tue, 6 Nov 2012 14:02:48 -0500, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

Holy ****, I think he was.... * *but for the wrong reasons, of course. He
was bitching about tripping over extension cords and fires or some other
dumb **** (regarding car inverters), whereas the problems are really more
fundamental.

So this protracted wrangling of mine, over car/battery inverters vs.
trad'l
gensets, has been solved:
* *I ordered BOTH.... * LOL
But the "real working solution" seems to be a genset, in this case a
tri-fuel.

The inverter thing *could* work, but from other recent threads, it seems
that this strat just turns into a bear.
I did order two inverters (1500 and 2500 W cobras) to experiment with, but
not nec. for house power -- altho when I set it up, I'll screw around with
that as well.

The inverters will work, but to do that part right you really need a
SERIOUS battery bank at home. *Call the battery distributors in your
area, ideally you get 6 large Tank Cells in series, 200AH is easy, you
can find 4,000AH if you search a little. *All you need is a make or
buy a rack to keep them off the floor, and from falling over in an
earthquake.

And there's the serious quantity of battery power to run your inverter
in the evening for the little stuff that must have 120V like the TV
and a few selected small appliances.

And as many of those as you can should run direct off the 12V battery
string - Lights and a fan to stir the heat from the Wood Stove or
Gravity Wall Furnace are easy. *You can get TV sets meant for
Motorhomes that have a 12V input also.

Oh, and the 12V batteries can run a High Water Alarm for the basement,
a High Temp alarm for the freezer and refrigerator, or a Freeze Alarm
for the house and garage, in case you have to get up and crank the
generator for a while.

Then you run the generator a few times during the day and charge the
big deep-cycle batteries back up, run the refrigerator, microwave,
coffeepot, freezer, furnace and well pump.

What I finally did was order one of these:
http://www.generatorsales.com/order/...Generator.asp?....
and one of these:
http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/Ca...x?R=EXH40001_0....

so's I can run the unit inside.

You can run the generator inside, for certain quantities of
"inside"...

I would STRONGLY suggest you build a separate "Generator Room" off
the side of the house and near the Main Power Panel that is sealed
from the inside of the house - No chance of a fire or CO getting
through.

Drywalled on the inside as a firestop, large vent grilles low and high
(or through the roof) for natural ventilation at all times - put a
turbine ventilator on the stack and let the breeze help. *Get a 120V
attic exhaust fan on the outlet to get positive airflow when the
generator is running.

Connect your flex exhaust tubing up to a 3" B-Vent riser and roof jack
to get the exhaust out up high, anyone looking from the street will
think 'heater' *not 'generator'.

The unit I ordered is actually a tri-fuel, but it has no gas tank, but can
siphon from any container, which is pretty neat.

You can put that gas tank on the outside, or in a separated room
sealed from the generator so the fumes can't get through, where you
can refuel with it running.

Don't even THINK of burying the fuel tank. *I'd get a double-wall
above-ground tank and put it outside the room - something like the
double-wall McMaster 3696K71 if you want to be paranoid, or the
37415K55 single-wall if you want to build a dike containment pan to
sit it in. *But a large Propane tank is much easier to pull off.

The total bill is $3K, MUCH more than I wanted to spend (PLUS my stolen
$1K
BlackMax -- goodgawd), but bottom line, this Sandy thing just spooked me
big
time, *PLUS this being the 3rd major weather event around here in 1.5
years.
I've lucked out in all three, but that's all it was, luck.

Now, this unit may not be for everyone, and here are some of the
pro's/con's.

Like virtually all "affordable" units, this thing will sound like a
goddamm
lawnmower -- don't listen to those bull**** decibel claims.
A true automotive muffler might help (either replacing the original, or
placed in series with the existing) can help a bit, but a sound-proofed
enclosure box is a better (albeit more troublesome) solution. *If you want
an intrinsically quiiet unit, quiet will double, triple the price at a
given
wattage, eg, the Honda EU series.

Build a little room for it, then sound is not an issue. *And it'll
make it a lot harder to steal, too.

Tri-fuel, imo, is Da Bomb, makes the unit very versatile, I can throw it
on
m'truck anytime, for whatever -- not for camping, tho, too noisy, unless
you
build a really good box. *Car inverters would proly be better for camping,
it would seem.
But for long outages, natural gas is *by far* the best way to go, followed
by propane, then gasoline.

That's a bit big to "throw" on the truck - far better to build it in,
and get another truly portable one.

15 kW is proly more than most people need, but I have sizable sq ft and a
shop, so I figgered I might as well just take the plunge.

Vic Smith is very right about the cost/benefit/probability considerations,
and no doubt I "overpaid" in this regard, but I really got spooked this
time, and the utilities are telling people, flat out, they're not getting
power 'til Nov 15...... *at best.
Holy ****.... * Dat easily coulda been me. *My rich ****head neighbors
(bunches of them) were without power for a full week. *The MAYOR is
without
power, in a city of 200,000++ ... *!!!!
I believe that like the Halloween snow storm, some people will be without
power for a month.

You would not, without some kind of custom adatper, be able to install
that
flex hose above, whereas on the unit I ordered, it (theoretically) clamps
right on the muffler flange.

If it was mine, I'd look at a steel Camlock fitting - you can make an
adapter on the tailpipe of the generator for a male Camlock, then a
Female with a hose barb to go into the steel flex tubing. *A little
High Temp Silicone to replace the Buna gaskets, and it should be good
to go.

Or just give up and make a semi-permanent adapter.

I'm fooling around with an inverter/battery setup now, in m'truck, a big
marine battery, 115 Ahr.
Not the easiest thing to make seamless. *Inverters seem to be a bit quirky,
and altho charging it from the car is not rocket science, it's still dicey
to implement -- simply running wires from the engine compartment to the
passenger cabin is a pita.

This from the clown who a month ago was advocating a
battery farm and multiple inverters in a garage, charged
from a car, with extension cords running to various loads
in the house as an effective back-up power solution....

Some just have to learn the hard way.



*And apparently this charging stuff sends too
much current for the ciggie lighter.... *no breaks, no breaks.

Wow, you really think so? Imagine that. The cigarette
lighter wasn't designed as a means to connect the car
alternator to a car battery.




WHERE to put the marine battery, or even more importantly, where to charge
it, is an issue as well.
No free lunch, apparently..... *not even a cheap lunch.

Some have to learn the hard way. Keep in mind this is
one of the big libs here. His approach to what he thought
he knew about inverters, versus what I told him over a
month ago, is instructive. This is the libs approach to the
economy and ruining the country too. Take some kooky
ideas that fly in the face of reality and refuse to listen to
those that know better.





The battery bank thing is proly more for solar people, part of an ongoing
operating functioning system.

Wrong yet again. Very few solar energy systems use
batteries. Pretty much limited to those that are strictly
off the grid.




For me, for these sporadic (but traumatic) events, I'll then be stuck
"tending" and charging these huge battery banks *forever*. *Not to mention,
proly not cheap, either.

No **** Sherlock. That is PRECISELY one of the points I
told you over a month ago. But you prefer to learn the hard
way.




The genset seems to be the more practical compromise, in this case. *And not
cheap either.

No **** Sherlock. Again, exactly what I told you monts ago.
But then I have had lights and heat the whole time here in NJ,
while you're still contemplating your navel in the dark.




As far as the genset install goes, I'll be very careful about the
inside-install, with CO monitors up the ass. *I'm not against outside, and
may just keep it inside for monthly testing, and hump it outside for a real
outage. *No big biggie.

Given your knowledge base and unwillingness to listen,
it will undoubtly be a biggie. I suggest you start with a visit to
your local code officials.



One thing, either inside or outside, I'll shut it down for the night, in any
prolonged outage. Whether inside or outside, I'll be building a sound box
for it. *I hope my effing neighbors do the same.... *but I doubt they will.

If I were your neighbor, I'd put you in that box.



I plan on storing gasoline, but not for the genset (which is nat. gas), just
to avert another gas shortage at the pumps. *I'm thinking a 55 gal drum (or
two) or just stack a bunch of 5 gal pails with pour-lids.
It's all a pita, esp if it is true that gas really goes bad. *I'll have to
look into stabilizers/antioxidants for long-term storage, so I don't have
the headache of cycling the stuff every 6 mos or so.

It's, like, a part-time job being a prepper!! * * LOL
--
EA- Hide quoted text -



Now the maroon has gone from a battery farm in the garage
to a fuel depot. I suggest you have a chat with the code officials
about that too while you're there sharing your plans for the
indoor generator.

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 8 Nov 2012 21:40:09 -0500, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

"Gunner" wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 08 Nov 2012 11:13:42 -0800, "Bruce L. Bergman (munged human
readable)" wrote:

On Tue, 6 Nov 2012 14:02:48 -0500, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

Holy ****, I think he was.... but for the wrong reasons, of course.
He
was bitching about tripping over extension cords and fires or some
other
dumb **** (regarding car inverters), whereas the problems are really
more
fundamental.

So this protracted wrangling of mine, over car/battery inverters vs.
trad'l
gensets, has been solved:
I ordered BOTH.... LOL
But the "real working solution" seems to be a genset, in this case a
tri-fuel.

The inverter thing *could* work, but from other recent threads, it
seems
that this strat just turns into a bear.
I did order two inverters (1500 and 2500 W cobras) to experiment with,
but
not nec. for house power -- altho when I set it up, I'll screw around
with
that as well.

The inverters will work, but to do that part right you really need a
SERIOUS battery bank at home. Call the battery distributors in your
area, ideally you get 6 large Tank Cells in series, 200AH is easy, you
can find 4,000AH if you search a little. All you need is a make or
buy a rack to keep them off the floor, and from falling over in an
earthquake.

And there's the serious quantity of battery power to run your inverter
in the evening for the little stuff that must have 120V like the TV
and a few selected small appliances.

And as many of those as you can should run direct off the 12V battery
string - Lights and a fan to stir the heat from the Wood Stove or
Gravity Wall Furnace are easy. You can get TV sets meant for
Motorhomes that have a 12V input also.

Oh, and the 12V batteries can run a High Water Alarm for the basement,
a High Temp alarm for the freezer and refrigerator, or a Freeze Alarm
for the house and garage, in case you have to get up and crank the
generator for a while.

Then you run the generator a few times during the day and charge the
big deep-cycle batteries back up, run the refrigerator, microwave,
coffeepot, freezer, furnace and well pump.

What I finally did was order one of these:
http://www.generatorsales.com/order/...sp?page=H04599
and one of these:
http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/Ca...001_0306020503

so's I can run the unit inside.

You can run the generator inside, for certain quantities of
"inside"...

I would STRONGLY suggest you build a separate "Generator Room" off
the side of the house and near the Main Power Panel that is sealed
from the inside of the house - No chance of a fire or CO getting
through.

Drywalled on the inside as a firestop, large vent grilles low and high
(or through the roof) for natural ventilation at all times - put a
turbine ventilator on the stack and let the breeze help. Get a 120V
attic exhaust fan on the outlet to get positive airflow when the
generator is running.

Connect your flex exhaust tubing up to a 3" B-Vent riser and roof jack
to get the exhaust out up high, anyone looking from the street will
think 'heater' not 'generator'.

The unit I ordered is actually a tri-fuel, but it has no gas tank, but
can
siphon from any container, which is pretty neat.

You can put that gas tank on the outside, or in a separated room
sealed from the generator so the fumes can't get through, where you
can refuel with it running.

Don't even THINK of burying the fuel tank. I'd get a double-wall
above-ground tank and put it outside the room - something like the
double-wall McMaster 3696K71 if you want to be paranoid, or the
37415K55 single-wall if you want to build a dike containment pan to
sit it in. But a large Propane tank is much easier to pull off.

The total bill is $3K, MUCH more than I wanted to spend (PLUS my stolen
$1K
BlackMax -- goodgawd), but bottom line, this Sandy thing just spooked
me
big
time, PLUS this being the 3rd major weather event around here in 1.5
years.
I've lucked out in all three, but that's all it was, luck.

Now, this unit may not be for everyone, and here are some of the
pro's/con's.

Like virtually all "affordable" units, this thing will sound like a
goddamm
lawnmower -- don't listen to those bull**** decibel claims.
A true automotive muffler might help (either replacing the original, or
placed in series with the existing) can help a bit, but a sound-proofed
enclosure box is a better (albeit more troublesome) solution. If you
want
an intrinsically quiiet unit, quiet will double, triple the price at a
given
wattage, eg, the Honda EU series.

Build a little room for it, then sound is not an issue. And it'll
make it a lot harder to steal, too.

Tri-fuel, imo, is Da Bomb, makes the unit very versatile, I can throw
it
on
m'truck anytime, for whatever -- not for camping, tho, too noisy,
unless
you
build a really good box. Car inverters would proly be better for
camping,
it would seem.
But for long outages, natural gas is *by far* the best way to go,
followed
by propane, then gasoline.

That's a bit big to "throw" on the truck - far better to build it in,
and get another truly portable one.

15 kW is proly more than most people need, but I have sizable sq ft and
a
shop, so I figgered I might as well just take the plunge.

Vic Smith is very right about the cost/benefit/probability
considerations,
and no doubt I "overpaid" in this regard, but I really got spooked this
time, and the utilities are telling people, flat out, they're not
getting
power 'til Nov 15...... at best.
Holy ****.... Dat easily coulda been me. My rich ****head neighbors
(bunches of them) were without power for a full week. The MAYOR is
without
power, in a city of 200,000++ ... !!!!
I believe that like the Halloween snow storm, some people will be
without
power for a month.

You would not, without some kind of custom adatper, be able to install
that
flex hose above, whereas on the unit I ordered, it (theoretically)
clamps
right on the muffler flange.

If it was mine, I'd look at a steel Camlock fitting - you can make an
adapter on the tailpipe of the generator for a male Camlock, then a
Female with a hose barb to go into the steel flex tubing. A little
High Temp Silicone to replace the Buna gaskets, and it should be good
to go.

Or just give up and make a semi-permanent adapter.


Good post!

Always +1. Some of the other assholes around here should take note.


No...its seldom good posts from you. Which is why I congratulated you
on the rare one. Stick to hardware. You are a dunce politically.

Since you responded to Bruce, I thought the comment was directed at Bruce,
and I concurred with the +1....
You mean, it was actually directed at MOI???
Golly gee, Moi is blushing!!!
Perhaps you are preparing only a shallow grave??
--
EA




Gunner.


--
""The Democratic constituency is just like a herd of cows. All you have
to do is lay out enough silage and they come running. That's why I
became an operative working with Democrats. With Democrats all you
have to do is make a lot of noise, lay out the hay, and be ready to
use the ole cattle prod in case a few want to bolt the herd.

Eighty percent of the people who call themselves Democrats don't have
a clue as to political reality.
What amazes me is that you could take a group of people who are hard
workers and convince them that they should support social programs
that were the exact opposite of their own personal convictions. Put a
little fear here and there and you can get people to vote any way you
want.

The voter is basically dumb and lazy. The reason I became a Democratic
operative instead of a Republican was because there were more
Democrats that didn't have a clue than there were Republicans."
James Carvell, DNC operative

wrote in message
...
On Nov 8, 3:45 pm, "Existential Angst" wrote:
"Bruce L. Bergman (munged human
wrote in message

...





On Tue, 6 Nov 2012 14:02:48 -0500, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

Holy ****, I think he was.... but for the wrong reasons, of course. He
was bitching about tripping over extension cords and fires or some other
dumb **** (regarding car inverters), whereas the problems are really
more
fundamental.

So this protracted wrangling of mine, over car/battery inverters vs.
trad'l
gensets, has been solved:
I ordered BOTH.... LOL
But the "real working solution" seems to be a genset, in this case a
tri-fuel.

The inverter thing *could* work, but from other recent threads, it seems
that this strat just turns into a bear.
I did order two inverters (1500 and 2500 W cobras) to experiment with,
but
not nec. for house power -- altho when I set it up, I'll screw around
with
that as well.

The inverters will work, but to do that part right you really need a
SERIOUS battery bank at home. Call the battery distributors in your
area, ideally you get 6 large Tank Cells in series, 200AH is easy, you
can find 4,000AH if you search a little. All you need is a make or
buy a rack to keep them off the floor, and from falling over in an
earthquake.

And there's the serious quantity of battery power to run your inverter
in the evening for the little stuff that must have 120V like the TV
and a few selected small appliances.

And as many of those as you can should run direct off the 12V battery
string - Lights and a fan to stir the heat from the Wood Stove or
Gravity Wall Furnace are easy. You can get TV sets meant for
Motorhomes that have a 12V input also.

Oh, and the 12V batteries can run a High Water Alarm for the basement,
a High Temp alarm for the freezer and refrigerator, or a Freeze Alarm
for the house and garage, in case you have to get up and crank the
generator for a while.

Then you run the generator a few times during the day and charge the
big deep-cycle batteries back up, run the refrigerator, microwave,
coffeepot, freezer, furnace and well pump.

What I finally did was order one of these:
http://www.generatorsales.com/order/...Generator.asp?...
and one of these:
http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/Ca...x?R=EXH40001_0...

so's I can run the unit inside.

You can run the generator inside, for certain quantities of
"inside"...

I would STRONGLY suggest you build a separate "Generator Room" off
the side of the house and near the Main Power Panel that is sealed
from the inside of the house - No chance of a fire or CO getting
through.

Drywalled on the inside as a firestop, large vent grilles low and high
(or through the roof) for natural ventilation at all times - put a
turbine ventilator on the stack and let the breeze help. Get a 120V
attic exhaust fan on the outlet to get positive airflow when the
generator is running.

Connect your flex exhaust tubing up to a 3" B-Vent riser and roof jack
to get the exhaust out up high, anyone looking from the street will
think 'heater' not 'generator'.

The unit I ordered is actually a tri-fuel, but it has no gas tank, but
can
siphon from any container, which is pretty neat.

You can put that gas tank on the outside, or in a separated room
sealed from the generator so the fumes can't get through, where you
can refuel with it running.

Don't even THINK of burying the fuel tank. I'd get a double-wall
above-ground tank and put it outside the room - something like the
double-wall McMaster 3696K71 if you want to be paranoid, or the
37415K55 single-wall if you want to build a dike containment pan to
sit it in. But a large Propane tank is much easier to pull off.

The total bill is $3K, MUCH more than I wanted to spend (PLUS my stolen
$1K
BlackMax -- goodgawd), but bottom line, this Sandy thing just spooked me
big
time, PLUS this being the 3rd major weather event around here in 1.5
years.
I've lucked out in all three, but that's all it was, luck.

Now, this unit may not be for everyone, and here are some of the
pro's/con's.

Like virtually all "affordable" units, this thing will sound like a
goddamm
lawnmower -- don't listen to those bull**** decibel claims.
A true automotive muffler might help (either replacing the original, or
placed in series with the existing) can help a bit, but a sound-proofed
enclosure box is a better (albeit more troublesome) solution. If you
want
an intrinsically quiiet unit, quiet will double, triple the price at a
given
wattage, eg, the Honda EU series.

Build a little room for it, then sound is not an issue. And it'll
make it a lot harder to steal, too.

Tri-fuel, imo, is Da Bomb, makes the unit very versatile, I can throw it
on
m'truck anytime, for whatever -- not for camping, tho, too noisy, unless
you
build a really good box. Car inverters would proly be better for
camping,
it would seem.
But for long outages, natural gas is *by far* the best way to go,
followed
by propane, then gasoline.

That's a bit big to "throw" on the truck - far better to build it in,
and get another truly portable one.

15 kW is proly more than most people need, but I have sizable sq ft and
a
shop, so I figgered I might as well just take the plunge.

Vic Smith is very right about the cost/benefit/probability
considerations,
and no doubt I "overpaid" in this regard, but I really got spooked this
time, and the utilities are telling people, flat out, they're not
getting
power 'til Nov 15...... at best.
Holy ****.... Dat easily coulda been me. My rich ****head neighbors
(bunches of them) were without power for a full week. The MAYOR is
without
power, in a city of 200,000++ ... !!!!
I believe that like the Halloween snow storm, some people will be
without
power for a month.

You would not, without some kind of custom adatper, be able to install
that
flex hose above, whereas on the unit I ordered, it (theoretically)
clamps
right on the muffler flange.

If it was mine, I'd look at a steel Camlock fitting - you can make an
adapter on the tailpipe of the generator for a male Camlock, then a
Female with a hose barb to go into the steel flex tubing. A little
High Temp Silicone to replace the Buna gaskets, and it should be good
to go.

Or just give up and make a semi-permanent adapter.

I'm fooling around with an inverter/battery setup now, in m'truck, a big
marine battery, 115 Ahr.
Not the easiest thing to make seamless. Inverters seem to be a bit quirky,
and altho charging it from the car is not rocket science, it's still dicey
to implement -- simply running wires from the engine compartment to the
passenger cabin is a pita.

This from the clown who a month ago was advocating a
battery farm and multiple inverters in a garage, charged
from a car, with extension cords running to various loads
in the house as an effective back-up power solution....

Some just have to learn the hard way.



And apparently this charging stuff sends too
much current for the ciggie lighter.... no breaks, no breaks.

Wow, you really think so? Imagine that. The cigarette
lighter wasn't designed as a means to connect the car
alternator to a car battery.




WHERE to put the marine battery, or even more importantly, where to charge
it, is an issue as well.
No free lunch, apparently..... not even a cheap lunch.

Some have to learn the hard way. Keep in mind this is
one of the big libs here. His approach to what he thought
he knew about inverters, versus what I told him over a
month ago, is instructive. This is the libs approach to the
economy and ruining the country too. Take some kooky
ideas that fly in the face of reality and refuse to listen to
those that know better.





The battery bank thing is proly more for solar people, part of an ongoing
operating functioning system.

Wrong yet again. Very few solar energy systems use
batteries. Pretty much limited to those that are strictly
off the grid.




For me, for these sporadic (but traumatic) events, I'll then be stuck
"tending" and charging these huge battery banks *forever*. Not to mention,
proly not cheap, either.

No **** Sherlock. That is PRECISELY one of the points I
told you over a month ago. But you prefer to learn the hard
way.




The genset seems to be the more practical compromise, in this case. And
not
cheap either.

No **** Sherlock. Again, exactly what I told you monts ago.
But then I have had lights and heat the whole time here in NJ,
while you're still contemplating your navel in the dark.




As far as the genset install goes, I'll be very careful about the
inside-install, with CO monitors up the ass. I'm not against outside, and
may just keep it inside for monthly testing, and hump it outside for a
real
outage. No big biggie.

Given your knowledge base and unwillingness to listen,
it will undoubtly be a biggie. I suggest you start with a visit to
your local code officials.



One thing, either inside or outside, I'll shut it down for the night, in
any
prolonged outage. Whether inside or outside, I'll be building a sound box
for it. I hope my effing neighbors do the same.... but I doubt they will.

If I were your neighbor, I'd put you in that box.



I plan on storing gasoline, but not for the genset (which is nat. gas),
just
to avert another gas shortage at the pumps. I'm thinking a 55 gal drum (or
two) or just stack a bunch of 5 gal pails with pour-lids.
It's all a pita, esp if it is true that gas really goes bad. I'll have to
look into stabilizers/antioxidants for long-term storage, so I don't have
the headache of cycling the stuff every 6 mos or so.

It's, like, a part-time job being a prepper!! LOL
--
EA- Hide quoted text -



Now the maroon has gone from a battery farm in the garage
to a fuel depot. I suggest you have a chat with the code officials
about that too while you're there sharing your plans for the
indoor generator.
================================================== ==

PLease be quiet..... adults were talking.....
--
EA

On Fri, 9 Nov 2012 06:43:44 -0500, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

wrote in message
...
On Nov 8, 3:45 pm, "Existential Angst" wrote:
"Bruce L. Bergman (munged human
wrote in message

...





On Tue, 6 Nov 2012 14:02:48 -0500, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

Holy ****, I think he was.... but for the wrong reasons, of course. He
was bitching about tripping over extension cords and fires or some other
dumb **** (regarding car inverters), whereas the problems are really
more
fundamental.

So this protracted wrangling of mine, over car/battery inverters vs.
trad'l
gensets, has been solved:
I ordered BOTH.... LOL
But the "real working solution" seems to be a genset, in this case a
tri-fuel.

The inverter thing *could* work, but from other recent threads, it seems
that this strat just turns into a bear.
I did order two inverters (1500 and 2500 W cobras) to experiment with,
but
not nec. for house power -- altho when I set it up, I'll screw around
with
that as well.

The inverters will work, but to do that part right you really need a
SERIOUS battery bank at home. Call the battery distributors in your
area, ideally you get 6 large Tank Cells in series, 200AH is easy, you
can find 4,000AH if you search a little. All you need is a make or
buy a rack to keep them off the floor, and from falling over in an
earthquake.

And there's the serious quantity of battery power to run your inverter
in the evening for the little stuff that must have 120V like the TV
and a few selected small appliances.

And as many of those as you can should run direct off the 12V battery
string - Lights and a fan to stir the heat from the Wood Stove or
Gravity Wall Furnace are easy. You can get TV sets meant for
Motorhomes that have a 12V input also.

Oh, and the 12V batteries can run a High Water Alarm for the basement,
a High Temp alarm for the freezer and refrigerator, or a Freeze Alarm
for the house and garage, in case you have to get up and crank the
generator for a while.

Then you run the generator a few times during the day and charge the
big deep-cycle batteries back up, run the refrigerator, microwave,
coffeepot, freezer, furnace and well pump.

What I finally did was order one of these:
http://www.generatorsales.com/order/...Generator.asp?...
and one of these:
http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/Ca...x?R=EXH40001_0...

so's I can run the unit inside.

You can run the generator inside, for certain quantities of
"inside"...

I would STRONGLY suggest you build a separate "Generator Room" off
the side of the house and near the Main Power Panel that is sealed
from the inside of the house - No chance of a fire or CO getting
through.

Drywalled on the inside as a firestop, large vent grilles low and high
(or through the roof) for natural ventilation at all times - put a
turbine ventilator on the stack and let the breeze help. Get a 120V
attic exhaust fan on the outlet to get positive airflow when the
generator is running.

Connect your flex exhaust tubing up to a 3" B-Vent riser and roof jack
to get the exhaust out up high, anyone looking from the street will
think 'heater' not 'generator'.

The unit I ordered is actually a tri-fuel, but it has no gas tank, but
can
siphon from any container, which is pretty neat.

You can put that gas tank on the outside, or in a separated room
sealed from the generator so the fumes can't get through, where you
can refuel with it running.

Don't even THINK of burying the fuel tank. I'd get a double-wall
above-ground tank and put it outside the room - something like the
double-wall McMaster 3696K71 if you want to be paranoid, or the
37415K55 single-wall if you want to build a dike containment pan to
sit it in. But a large Propane tank is much easier to pull off.

The total bill is $3K, MUCH more than I wanted to spend (PLUS my stolen
$1K
BlackMax -- goodgawd), but bottom line, this Sandy thing just spooked me
big
time, PLUS this being the 3rd major weather event around here in 1.5
years.
I've lucked out in all three, but that's all it was, luck.

Now, this unit may not be for everyone, and here are some of the
pro's/con's.

Like virtually all "affordable" units, this thing will sound like a
goddamm
lawnmower -- don't listen to those bull**** decibel claims.
A true automotive muffler might help (either replacing the original, or
placed in series with the existing) can help a bit, but a sound-proofed
enclosure box is a better (albeit more troublesome) solution. If you
want
an intrinsically quiiet unit, quiet will double, triple the price at a
given
wattage, eg, the Honda EU series.

Build a little room for it, then sound is not an issue. And it'll
make it a lot harder to steal, too.

Tri-fuel, imo, is Da Bomb, makes the unit very versatile, I can throw it
on
m'truck anytime, for whatever -- not for camping, tho, too noisy, unless
you
build a really good box. Car inverters would proly be better for
camping,
it would seem.
But for long outages, natural gas is *by far* the best way to go,
followed
by propane, then gasoline.

That's a bit big to "throw" on the truck - far better to build it in,
and get another truly portable one.

15 kW is proly more than most people need, but I have sizable sq ft and
a
shop, so I figgered I might as well just take the plunge.

Vic Smith is very right about the cost/benefit/probability
considerations,
and no doubt I "overpaid" in this regard, but I really got spooked this
time, and the utilities are telling people, flat out, they're not
getting
power 'til Nov 15...... at best.
Holy ****.... Dat easily coulda been me. My rich ****head neighbors
(bunches of them) were without power for a full week. The MAYOR is
without
power, in a city of 200,000++ ... !!!!
I believe that like the Halloween snow storm, some people will be
without
power for a month.

You would not, without some kind of custom adatper, be able to install
that
flex hose above, whereas on the unit I ordered, it (theoretically)
clamps
right on the muffler flange.

If it was mine, I'd look at a steel Camlock fitting - you can make an
adapter on the tailpipe of the generator for a male Camlock, then a
Female with a hose barb to go into the steel flex tubing. A little
High Temp Silicone to replace the Buna gaskets, and it should be good
to go.

Or just give up and make a semi-permanent adapter.

I'm fooling around with an inverter/battery setup now, in m'truck, a big
marine battery, 115 Ahr.
Not the easiest thing to make seamless. Inverters seem to be a bit quirky,
and altho charging it from the car is not rocket science, it's still dicey
to implement -- simply running wires from the engine compartment to the
passenger cabin is a pita.

This from the clown who a month ago was advocating a
battery farm and multiple inverters in a garage, charged
from a car, with extension cords running to various loads
in the house as an effective back-up power solution....

Some just have to learn the hard way.



And apparently this charging stuff sends too
much current for the ciggie lighter.... no breaks, no breaks.

Wow, you really think so? Imagine that. The cigarette
lighter wasn't designed as a means to connect the car
alternator to a car battery.




WHERE to put the marine battery, or even more importantly, where to charge
it, is an issue as well.
No free lunch, apparently..... not even a cheap lunch.

Some have to learn the hard way. Keep in mind this is
one of the big libs here. His approach to what he thought
he knew about inverters, versus what I told him over a
month ago, is instructive. This is the libs approach to the
economy and ruining the country too. Take some kooky
ideas that fly in the face of reality and refuse to listen to
those that know better.





The battery bank thing is proly more for solar people, part of an ongoing
operating functioning system.

Wrong yet again. Very few solar energy systems use
batteries. Pretty much limited to those that are strictly
off the grid.




For me, for these sporadic (but traumatic) events, I'll then be stuck
"tending" and charging these huge battery banks *forever*. Not to mention,
proly not cheap, either.

No **** Sherlock. That is PRECISELY one of the points I
told you over a month ago. But you prefer to learn the hard
way.




The genset seems to be the more practical compromise, in this case. And
not
cheap either.

No **** Sherlock. Again, exactly what I told you monts ago.
But then I have had lights and heat the whole time here in NJ,
while you're still contemplating your navel in the dark.




As far as the genset install goes, I'll be very careful about the
inside-install, with CO monitors up the ass. I'm not against outside, and
may just keep it inside for monthly testing, and hump it outside for a
real
outage. No big biggie.

Given your knowledge base and unwillingness to listen,
it will undoubtly be a biggie. I suggest you start with a visit to
your local code officials.



One thing, either inside or outside, I'll shut it down for the night, in
any
prolonged outage. Whether inside or outside, I'll be building a sound box
for it. I hope my effing neighbors do the same.... but I doubt they will.

If I were your neighbor, I'd put you in that box.



I plan on storing gasoline, but not for the genset (which is nat. gas),
just
to avert another gas shortage at the pumps. I'm thinking a 55 gal drum (or
two) or just stack a bunch of 5 gal pails with pour-lids.
It's all a pita, esp if it is true that gas really goes bad. I'll have to
look into stabilizers/antioxidants for long-term storage, so I don't have
the headache of cycling the stuff every 6 mos or so.

It's, like, a part-time job being a prepper!! LOL
--
EA- Hide quoted text -



Now the maroon has gone from a battery farm in the garage
to a fuel depot. I suggest you have a chat with the code officials
about that too while you're there sharing your plans for the
indoor generator.
================================================= ===

PLease be quiet..... adults were talking.....

Indeed they are. Unfortunately you keep trying to get in on the
conversation. And its way past your bed time.

Gunner

--
""The Democratic constituency is just like a herd of cows. All you have
to do is lay out enough silage and they come running. That’s why I
became an operative working with Democrats. With Democrats all you
have to do is make a lot of noise, lay out the hay, and be ready to
use the ole cattle prod in case a few want to bolt the herd.

Eighty percent of the people who call themselves Democrats don’t have
a clue as to political reality.
What amazes me is that you could take a group of people who are hard
workers and convince them that they should support social programs
that were the exact opposite of their own personal convictions. Put a
little fear here and there and you can get people to vote any way you
want.

The voter is basically dumb and lazy. The reason I became a Democratic
operative instead of a Republican was because there were more
Democrats that didn’t have a clue than there were Republicans."
James Carvell, DNC operative

On Fri, 9 Nov 2012 06:41:23 -0500, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

If it was mine, I'd look at a steel Camlock fitting - you can make an
adapter on the tailpipe of the generator for a male Camlock, then a
Female with a hose barb to go into the steel flex tubing. A little
High Temp Silicone to replace the Buna gaskets, and it should be good
to go.

Or just give up and make a semi-permanent adapter.


Good post!

Always +1. Some of the other assholes around here should take note.


No...its seldom good posts from you. Which is why I congratulated you
on the rare one. Stick to hardware. You are a dunce politically.

Since you responded to Bruce, I thought the comment was directed at Bruce,
and I concurred with the +1....

It was directed at Bruce. I congratulated you on recognizing it.

You mean, it was actually directed at MOI???
Golly gee, Moi is blushing!!!

You should be. Its rare enough from you.

Perhaps you are preparing only a shallow grave??
--
EA

Define "shallow:......

Gunner

--
""The Democratic constituency is just like a herd of cows. All you have
to do is lay out enough silage and they come running. That’s why I
became an operative working with Democrats. With Democrats all you
have to do is make a lot of noise, lay out the hay, and be ready to
use the ole cattle prod in case a few want to bolt the herd.

Eighty percent of the people who call themselves Democrats don’t have
a clue as to political reality.
What amazes me is that you could take a group of people who are hard
workers and convince them that they should support social programs
that were the exact opposite of their own personal convictions. Put a
little fear here and there and you can get people to vote any way you
want.

The voter is basically dumb and lazy. The reason I became a Democratic
operative instead of a Republican was because there were more
Democrats that didn’t have a clue than there were Republicans."
James Carvell, DNC operative

Gunner wrote:

On Fri, 9 Nov 2012 06:41:23 -0500, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

If it was mine, I'd look at a steel Camlock fitting - you can make an
adapter on the tailpipe of the generator for a male Camlock, then a
Female with a hose barb to go into the steel flex tubing. A little
High Temp Silicone to replace the Buna gaskets, and it should be good
to go.

Or just give up and make a semi-permanent adapter.


Good post!

Always +1. Some of the other assholes around here should take note.


No...its seldom good posts from you. Which is why I congratulated you
on the rare one. Stick to hardware. You are a dunce politically.

Since you responded to Bruce, I thought the comment was directed at Bruce,
and I concurred with the +1....

It was directed at Bruce. I congratulated you on recognizing it.

You mean, it was actually directed at MOI???
Golly gee, Moi is blushing!!!

You should be. Its rare enough from you.

Perhaps you are preparing only a shallow grave??
--
EA

Define "shallow:......

Gunner

--
""The Democratic constituency is just like a herd of cows. All you have
to do is lay out enough silage and they come running. That’s why I
became an operative working with Democrats. With Democrats all you
have to do is make a lot of noise, lay out the hay, and be ready to
use the ole cattle prod in case a few want to bolt the herd.

Eighty percent of the people who call themselves Democrats don’t have
a clue as to political reality.
What amazes me is that you could take a group of people who are hard
workers and convince them that they should support social programs
that were the exact opposite of their own personal convictions. Put a
little fear here and there and you can get people to vote any way you
want.

The voter is basically dumb and lazy. The reason I became a Democratic
operative instead of a Republican was because there were more
Democrats that didn’t have a clue than there were Republicans."
James Carvell, DNC operative

Gunner wrote:


It was directed at Bruce. I congratulated you on recognizing it.

No you didn't

--
""The Democratic constituency is just like a herd of cows. All you have
to do is lay out enough silage and they come running. That’s why I
became an operative working with Democrats. With Democrats all you
have to do is make a lot of noise, lay out the hay, and be ready to
use the ole cattle prod in case a few want to bolt the herd.

Eighty percent of the people who call themselves Democrats don’t have
a clue as to political reality.
What amazes me is that you could take a group of people who are hard
workers and convince them that they should support social programs
that were the exact opposite of their own personal convictions. Put a
little fear here and there and you can get people to vote any way you
want.

The voter is basically dumb and lazy. The reason I became a Democratic
operative instead of a Republican was because there were more
Democrats that didn’t have a clue than there were Republicans."
James Carvell, DNC operative

“The James Carville "herd of cows" quote is a fabrication, posted on the
website thinkexist.com by someone going by thisoneworks. It has no
attribution. Just another conservative propagandistic fabrication as far
as I can tell.”
-- James Carville

" wrote:

This from the clown who a month ago was advocating a
battery farm and multiple inverters in a garage, charged
from a car, with extension cords running to various loads
in the house as an effective back-up power solution....


Are you beginning to see why most people have killfiled him?

"jim" wrote in message
news

Gunner wrote:


It was directed at Bruce. I congratulated you on recognizing it.

No you didn't
================================================

Heh, I was wondering about that myself..... I was thinking, Is Gummer
confabulating (again), this time *to my very face*????
By golly, I think he WAS!!!
Or was he just lying.... again.... LOL!!!

Still, ahm tryna get my room back.... even if it is in a CA hovel....
--
EA

--
""The Democratic constituency is just like a herd of cows. All you have
to do is lay out enough silage and they come running. That's why I
became an operative working with Democrats. With Democrats all you
have to do is make a lot of noise, lay out the hay, and be ready to
use the ole cattle prod in case a few want to bolt the herd.

Eighty percent of the people who call themselves Democrats don't have
a clue as to political reality.
What amazes me is that you could take a group of people who are hard
workers and convince them that they should support social programs
that were the exact opposite of their own personal convictions. Put a
little fear here and there and you can get people to vote any way you
want.

The voter is basically dumb and lazy. The reason I became a Democratic
operative instead of a Republican was because there were more
Democrats that didn't have a clue than there were Republicans."
James Carvell, DNC operative

"The James Carville "herd of cows" quote is a fabrication, posted on the
website thinkexist.com by someone going by thisoneworks. It has no
attribution. Just another conservative propagandistic fabrication as far
as I can tell."
-- James Carville

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

" wrote:

This from the clown who a month ago was advocating a
battery farm and multiple inverters in a garage, charged
from a car, with extension cords running to various loads
in the house as an effective back-up power solution....


Are you beginning to see why most people have killfiled him?

Heh, yeah, but I'll bet this Trader4 prick dudn't flap his dick about his
bull**** economics degree, anymore....
Just like that loquacious pompous pretentious fagit Gene, and his bull****
Thevenin's theorem and first college course.... which turned out to be a
fuknVIDEO course..... goodgawd.....

Ahm no 'spert, but I got a perty good bull**** meter.
You, otoh, just seem to naturally gravitate toward bull****. Esp. republican
bull****.....

I said from the gitgo Trader4 was right.... I thought that was actually
perty funny, have no pro'leng fessing up to it.
But that humorless prick just goes for the jugular, each and every time.

AND, he re-writes history. He WAS right, but not for any cogent or
well-explained reasons. Yeah, I hadda find out for myself, and what I've
found out is really perty inneresting, which I'll detail in another post.
He's proly right-er than he even knows! But we'll see, I got more
learning-the-hard-way to do.... LOL

Oh, I loved this one:

"Some have to learn the hard way. Keep in mind this is
one of the big libs here. His approach to what he thought
he knew about inverters, versus what I told him over a
month ago, is instructive. This is the libs approach to the
economy and ruining the country too. Take some kooky
ideas that fly in the face of reality and refuse to listen to
those that know better."

First, Trader seems to just object to people who don't take his effing
edicts at face value.
Second, he just described..... Alan Greenspan!!!!!
"But.... but..... but...... but..... I thought the market would
regulate ITSELF!!!!!! "

THOUGHT, eh??
Kooky ideas that fly in the face of reality, indeed. Refusing to listen,
indeed.....

Another funny thing:
You RePube closet cross-dressers seem to equate anti-corruption in gummint
with liberalism....
WTF do you come up wit DAT????
Oh, Oh, I get it: RePube corruption is OK, it's the DemoCrap corruption
that's reprehensible and the root of all our problems..... Oh, okay......

I think y'all spend much too much time reading the fuknBibble..... after a
while, you just make just no sense at all (Gummer being an admittedly
extreme example), but you repeat it over and over and over and over and over
again.
--
EA

"Bruce L. Bergman (munged human readable)" wrote:

Topped off with ~16 - 18 feet of pea gravel.


Worst case of Kidney stones, EVER! ;-)

On Fri, 09 Nov 2012 09:21:31 -0600, jim
wrote:



Gunner wrote:


It was directed at Bruce. I congratulated you on recognizing it.

No you didn't

Cites?


--
""The Democratic constituency is just like a herd of cows. All you have
to do is lay out enough silage and they come running. That’s why I
became an operative working with Democrats. With Democrats all you
have to do is make a lot of noise, lay out the hay, and be ready to
use the ole cattle prod in case a few want to bolt the herd.

Eighty percent of the people who call themselves Democrats don’t have
a clue as to political reality.
What amazes me is that you could take a group of people who are hard
workers and convince them that they should support social programs
that were the exact opposite of their own personal convictions. Put a
little fear here and there and you can get people to vote any way you
want.

The voter is basically dumb and lazy. The reason I became a Democratic
operative instead of a Republican was because there were more
Democrats that didn’t have a clue than there were Republicans."
James Carvell, DNC operative

“The James Carville "herd of cows" quote is a fabrication, posted on the
website thinkexist.com by someone going by thisoneworks. It has no
attribution. Just another conservative propagandistic fabrication as far
as I can tell.”
-- James Carville

Power to da Pipples! It its from the mouth of a Democrat, true or
not..its Da Truth!!

Its the law!!

Gunner

--
""The Democratic constituency is just like a herd of cows. All you have
to do is lay out enough silage and they come running. That’s why I
became an operative working with Democrats. With Democrats all you
have to do is make a lot of noise, lay out the hay, and be ready to
use the ole cattle prod in case a few want to bolt the herd.

Eighty percent of the people who call themselves Democrats don’t have
a clue as to political reality.
What amazes me is that you could take a group of people who are hard
workers and convince them that they should support social programs
that were the exact opposite of their own personal convictions. Put a
little fear here and there and you can get people to vote any way you
want.

The voter is basically dumb and lazy. The reason I became a Democratic
operative instead of a Republican was because there were more
Democrats that didn’t have a clue than there were Republicans."
James Carvell, DNC operative

Gunner wrote:

On Fri, 09 Nov 2012 09:21:31 -0600, jim
wrote:



Gunner wrote:


It was directed at Bruce. I congratulated you on recognizing it.

No you didn't

Cites?

Only a retard would ask for citation
for
something that didn't happen.

"jim" wrote in message
.. .


Gunner wrote:

On Fri, 09 Nov 2012 09:21:31 -0600, jim
wrote:



Gunner wrote:


It was directed at Bruce. I congratulated you on recognizing it.

No you didn't

Cites?

Only a retard would ask for citation
for
something that didn't happen.

+100!!!! There goes another keyboard..... LOL
--
EA

On Fri, 9 Nov 2012 11:48:31 -0500, "Existential Angst"
wrote:


--
""The Democratic constituency is just like a herd of cows. All you have
to do is lay out enough silage and they come running. That's why I
became an operative working with Democrats. With Democrats all you
have to do is make a lot of noise, lay out the hay, and be ready to
use the ole cattle prod in case a few want to bolt the herd.

Eighty percent of the people who call themselves Democrats don't have
a clue as to political reality.
What amazes me is that you could take a group of people who are hard
workers and convince them that they should support social programs
that were the exact opposite of their own personal convictions. Put a
little fear here and there and you can get people to vote any way you
want.

The voter is basically dumb and lazy. The reason I became a Democratic
operative instead of a Republican was because there were more
Democrats that didn't have a clue than there were Republicans."
James Carvell, DNC operative

"The James Carville "herd of cows" quote is a fabrication, posted on the
website thinkexist.com by someone going by thisoneworks. It has no
attribution. Just another conservative propagandistic fabrication as far
as I can tell."
-- James Carville


Im a Registered Democrat and anything I say, true or false..is
believable! Its part of being a Demonrat!!

If you dont believe me..Im calling the SJEU!!!

Gunner

--
""The Democratic constituency is just like a herd of cows. All you have
to do is lay out enough silage and they come running. That’s why I
became an operative working with Democrats. With Democrats all you
have to do is make a lot of noise, lay out the hay, and be ready to
use the ole cattle prod in case a few want to bolt the herd.

Eighty percent of the people who call themselves Democrats don’t have
a clue as to political reality.
What amazes me is that you could take a group of people who are hard
workers and convince them that they should support social programs
that were the exact opposite of their own personal convictions. Put a
little fear here and there and you can get people to vote any way you
want.

The voter is basically dumb and lazy. The reason I became a Democratic
operative instead of a Republican was because there were more
Democrats that didn’t have a clue than there were Republicans."
James Carvell, DNC operative

On 11/9/2012 2:47 PM, Gunner wrote:
-snip-
If you dont believe me..Im calling the SJEU!!!

SJEU ?

http://www.acronymfinder.com/~/searc...d&string=exact

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Fri, 09 Nov 2012 14:53:15 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 11/9/2012 2:47 PM, Gunner wrote:
-snip-
If you dont believe me..Im calling the SJEU!!!

SJEU ?

http://www.acronymfinder.com/~/searc...d&string=exact


Sorry..brain fart.

SEIU. THey have really good lawyers! And I get one free! Im a
Democrat!!

Gunner

--
""The Democratic constituency is just like a herd of cows. All you have
to do is lay out enough silage and they come running. That’s why I
became an operative working with Democrats. With Democrats all you
have to do is make a lot of noise, lay out the hay, and be ready to
use the ole cattle prod in case a few want to bolt the herd.

Eighty percent of the people who call themselves Democrats don’t have
a clue as to political reality.
What amazes me is that you could take a group of people who are hard
workers and convince them that they should support social programs
that were the exact opposite of their own personal convictions. Put a
little fear here and there and you can get people to vote any way you
want.

The voter is basically dumb and lazy. The reason I became a Democratic
operative instead of a Republican was because there were more
Democrats that didn’t have a clue than there were Republicans."
James Carvell, DNC operative

On Fri, 09 Nov 2012 13:54:42 -0600, jim
wrote:



Gunner wrote:

On Fri, 09 Nov 2012 09:21:31 -0600, jim
wrote:



Gunner wrote:


It was directed at Bruce. I congratulated you on recognizing it.

No you didn't

Cites?

Only a retard would ask for citation
for
something that didn't happen.

Cites?



--
""The Democratic constituency is just like a herd of cows. All you have
to do is lay out enough silage and they come running. That’s why I
became an operative working with Democrats. With Democrats all you
have to do is make a lot of noise, lay out the hay, and be ready to
use the ole cattle prod in case a few want to bolt the herd.

Eighty percent of the people who call themselves Democrats don’t have
a clue as to political reality.
What amazes me is that you could take a group of people who are hard
workers and convince them that they should support social programs
that were the exact opposite of their own personal convictions. Put a
little fear here and there and you can get people to vote any way you
want.

The voter is basically dumb and lazy. The reason I became a Democratic
operative instead of a Republican was because there were more
Democrats that didn’t have a clue than there were Republicans."
James Carvell, DNC operative

Gunner wrote:

On Fri, 09 Nov 2012 13:54:42 -0600, jim
wrote:



Gunner wrote:

On Fri, 09 Nov 2012 09:21:31 -0600, jim
wrote:



Gunner wrote:


It was directed at Bruce. I congratulated you on recognizing it.

No you didn't

Cites?

Only a retard would ask for citation
for
something that didn't happen.

Cites?


http://behavenet.com/mental-retardation

"jim" wrote in message
.. .


Gunner wrote:

On Fri, 09 Nov 2012 13:54:42 -0600, jim
wrote:



Gunner wrote:

On Fri, 09 Nov 2012 09:21:31 -0600, jim
wrote:



Gunner wrote:


It was directed at Bruce. I congratulated you on recognizing it.

No you didn't

Cites?

Only a retard would ask for citation
for
something that didn't happen.

Cites?


http://behavenet.com/mental-retardation

Excellent cite!! Specifically regarding Gummer,
--------------------
B. Concurrent deficits or impairments in present adaptive functioning (i.e.,
the person's effectiveness in meeting the standards expected for his or her
age by his or her cultural group) in at least two of the following areas:
communication, self-care, home living, social/interpersonal skills, use of
community resources, self-direction, functional academic skills, work,
leisure, health, and safety.

-------------------------------

I guess confabulation/chronic lying/childish menacing fall under a
different diagnostic category.... LOL

--

EA