Danny D. wrote:
This garden Wilkins Zurn water check valve is leaking:
SMALL: http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...0/11343535.jpg
LARGE: http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11343535.jpg

I can't understand HOW it works given that it's at the top of a hill.

At that height above the house, no water is ever going to flow backward
into the water supply (I think).

The only water higher is the water tank itself, the bottom of which is at
the same level as this Wilkins Zurn water check valve.

I don't know WHY this check valve even exists, since it's 10 to 20 feet
ABOVE almos all the spigots (except those at the water tank itself).

Do you agree I can just bypass this check valve?
Or am I missing something obvious?

Hi,
It is the code where I live. I do't want to have even one in a thousand
chance of drinking dirty water no matter what. I have them on outside
faucets and in-line feeding sprinkler system.

On Mon, 05 Nov 2012 21:58:22 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

I have them on outside faucets and in-line feeding sprinkler system.

Yes. That's what it's on for me too.

It's only at the top of the hill, at the level of the bottom of the water
tanks, and it's ONLY for the sprinkler system and hoses that are OUTSIDE
the house.

The spigots on the house seem to be fed by the home water system, which
is a separate pipe.

Someone said I could rebuild it - so I'm going to Home Depot tomorrow
(and maybe Lowes) to find the parts to rebuild it if I can.

Danny D. wrote:

Someone said I could rebuild it - so I'm going to Home Depot tomorrow
(and maybe Lowes) to find the parts to rebuild it if I can.

Jeez, just buy a new one.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out...
http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On Tue, 06 Nov 2012 07:30:05 -0500, dadiOH wrote:

Jeez, just buy a new one.

That's probably not a bad idea.

I'm trying to figure out what it is so I can price it.
And how it works.

For example, what's the purpose of the four female fittings?
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11343535.jpg

BTW, I found the Wilkins Zurn backflow checkvalve page:
http://www.zurn.com/Pages/Search.asp...ow&ak=backflow

But I haven't yet found the particular device to obtain price
and availability and instructions as to what those four fittings
are for.

On Nov 6, 9:05*am, "Danny D." wrote:
On Tue, 06 Nov 2012 07:30:05 -0500, dadiOH wrote:
Jeez, just buy a new one.

That's probably not a bad idea.

I'm trying to figure out what it is so I can price it.
And how it works.

For example, what's the purpose of the four female fittings?
*http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11343535.jpg

BTW, I found the Wilkins Zurn backflow checkvalve page:
*http://www.zurn.com/Pages/Search.asp...ow&ak=backflow

But I haven't yet found the particular device to obtain price
and availability and instructions as to what those four fittings
are for.


There are some curious fittings on many of these backflow preventers.
I had a sprinkler guy install a new system and he said they are for
testing purposes and someday some code official might want to use
them for testing, but he'd never seen it done.

I would not get hung up on that aspect. If you're really concerned,
find what you think is a suitable replacement, regardless of the fancy
fittings, print out the datasheet
and take it to your local plumbing inspector and ask. That's the only
way you'll know for sure, regardless of what anyone here thinks.

On Nov 6, 7:05*am, "Danny D." wrote:
On Tue, 06 Nov 2012 07:30:05 -0500, dadiOH wrote:
Jeez, just buy a new one.

That's probably not a bad idea.

I'm trying to figure out what it is so I can price it.
And how it works.

For example, what's the purpose of the four female fittings?
*http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11343535.jpg

BTW, I found the Wilkins Zurn backflow checkvalve page:
*http://www.zurn.com/Pages/Search.asp...ow&ak=backflow

But I haven't yet found the particular device to obtain price
and availability and instructions as to what those four fittings
are for.

My guess on those four female fittings is one of two things:
1. you could run four above ground water lines to different zones in
your yard or garden. It looks like they have quarter turn shutoffs
for each one.

2. they may be for blowing out the system with an air compressor, but
being that there's four of them and the height location in relation to
the yard, this is doubtful. On my underground lawn sprinkler system,
I have to blow mine out prior to winter so that the water in the lines
don't freeze and bust the pipes.

I agree with the prior posts that the backflow preventer is necessary.


2.

Danny D. wrote:
On Tue, 06 Nov 2012 07:30:05 -0500, dadiOH wrote:

Jeez, just buy a new one.

That's probably not a bad idea.

I'm trying to figure out what it is so I can price it.
And how it works.

For example, what's the purpose of the four female fittings?
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11343535.jpg

I have no idea. Best guess is for attaching pipes, no idea why you would
want to. I also have no idea why there are fore and aft valves.

I do see what appears to be a clean out fitting (two, actually). If it were
me I'd open them up and see if some gunk was keeping the valve open. If you
replace it, all you really need to know is the pipe sizes to which the new
check valve will attach. You will probably have to do some pipe fitting
too - nipple & coupling at least - as it is not likely a new one will fit
lengthwise properly. Cheapest check valves are PVC; brass is both better
and pricier.


--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out...
http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On Tue, 06 Nov 2012 07:30:05 -0500, dadiOH wrote:

Jeez, just buy a new one.

I just got off the phone with Wilkins Zurn Technical Support
(aka Wilkins Water Works) at 1-855-663-9876

A new one is over seven hundred dollars.

So, while it may be easy to say to buy one, I would think
a home repair is in order here.

Luckily, they make a 'repair kit', with instructions:

http://www.zurn.com/Pages/ProductDet...NodeKey=377206
Wilkins Waterworks 975XL Repair Kit List Price: $55
Wilkins Waterworks 975XL Repair Kit List Price: $755

On Tue, 06 Nov 2012 06:59:55 -0800, wrote:

There are some curious fittings on many of these backflow preventers.
I had a sprinkler guy install a new system and he said they are for
testing purposes and someday some code official might want to use
them for testing, but he'd never seen it done.

I called up Wilkins Zurn (Wilkins Water Works) technical support.
They told me those four fittings are for testing purposes, as
you had surmised.

I'm reading all I can on it from the datasheets right now since
it's a $755 part with a $55 repair kit - but, as you know,
repairing (fixing) takes more effort than simple replacement.

Wilkins Zurn 975XL Specification Sheet
http://content.zurn.com/web_document...-975XL(lg).pdf

Wilkins Zurn 975XL Maintenance Sheet
http://content.zurn.com/web_document...on/ISSM950.pdf

I wonder if there is Linux freeware for these CAD drawings?
Wilkins Zurn 975XL CAD drawings (DXL)
http://content.zurn.com/web_documents/dxf/975XL.dxf

Wilkins Zurn 975XL BIM 3d Model
http://tinyurl.com/aj8fh26

On Tue, 06 Nov 2012 07:19:28 -0800, rlz wrote:

I agree with the prior posts that the backflow preventer is necessary.

OK. I don't disagree. It's there for a reason.
I'm going to try to understand the thing and then repair it.

BTW, I can't tell if it's a 1" or a 1.5 inch opening
because it clearly has a "1" stamped on each opening
but it's just as clearly got a 1" pipe going in and out.

Here, for example, is a ruler next to the pipe and
a yellow circle around the 1.
LARGE: http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11346746.jpg
SMALL: http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...0/11346746.jpg

Notice the pipe is actually about 1 3/8ths in diameter, so it's
neither 1 inch nor 1.5 inch.

Q: What size would you say this Wilkins Zurn 975XL actually fits?

"Danny D." wrote in message
...

Notice the pipe is actually about 1 3/8ths in diameter, so it's
neither 1 inch nor 1.5 inch.


You do realize that pipe is not really measured like it is called ?
That is what is called one inch pipe will actually measuer about 1.3 inches
outside diameter with a ruler.


http://www.pipemarkers.com/pipe-data.php

This is a pipe chart for sizes.

On Tue, 06 Nov 2012 12:08:56 -0500, Ralph Mowery wrote:

You do realize that pipe is not really measured like it is called ?

I do now!

Thanks.

Danny D. wrote:
On Tue, 06 Nov 2012 06:59:55 -0800, wrote:

There are some curious fittings on many of these backflow preventers.
I had a sprinkler guy install a new system and he said they are for
testing purposes and someday some code official might want to use
them for testing, but he'd never seen it done.

I called up Wilkins Zurn (Wilkins Water Works) technical support.
They told me those four fittings are for testing purposes, as
you had surmised.

I'm reading all I can on it from the datasheets right now since
it's a $755 part with a $55 repair kit - but, as you know,
repairing (fixing) takes more effort than simple replacement.


So replace it. What is it, 2"? You can buy 2" brass check valves for less
than $50.
http://www.amazon.com/American-Valve.../dp/B001GLZQAQ

If it isn't 2", here are some more...
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg...1 106183650:s

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out...
http://www.floridaloghouse.net

Danny D. wrote:
On Tue, 06 Nov 2012 07:19:28 -0800, rlz wrote:

I agree with the prior posts that the backflow preventer is
necessary.

OK. I don't disagree. It's there for a reason.
I'm going to try to understand the thing and then repair it.

BTW, I can't tell if it's a 1" or a 1.5 inch opening
because it clearly has a "1" stamped on each opening
but it's just as clearly got a 1" pipe going in and out.

Here, for example, is a ruler next to the pipe and
a yellow circle around the 1.
LARGE: http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/11346746.jpg
SMALL: http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...0/11346746.jpg

Wrong place. Measure at the pipe into the check valve. Actually, it
doesn't much matter...get the size check valve necessary - I'd think 1 1/2"
would be very generous - and use pipe fittings as needed to marry it to the
pipe. Do you plan to keep the shutoff valves?

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out...
http://www.floridaloghouse.net

"Danny D." wrote in news:k7bc20$nua$1
@speranza.aioe.org:

On Tue, 06 Nov 2012 06:59:55 -0800, wrote:

There are some curious fittings on many of these backflow preventers.
[snip]

I wonder if there is Linux freeware for these CAD drawings?
Wilkins Zurn 975XL CAD drawings (DXL)
http://content.zurn.com/web_documents/dxf/975XL.dxf

Standard drawing exchange format. On Linux, insert into LibreOffice Draw,
Draftsight, maybe QCAD, GIMP.

On Tue, 6 Nov 2012 15:57:52 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

I'm reading all I can on it from the datasheets right now since
it's a $755 part with a $55 repair kit - but, as you know,
repairing (fixing) takes more effort than simple replacement.

What?! I paid ~$65.00 at HD for a brand new WATTS brand PRV after
the old one had frozen and cracked six years ago.. About a 1 hour
job.

For the cost they want, you should get a reach-around.

Look around here and get another price.

http://www.watts.com/backflowprevention

Watts is a quality brand in my experience.

If the valve is cracked, a repair kit is useless.

On Tue, 06 Nov 2012 13:46:34 -0500, dadiOH wrote:

Measure at the pipe into the check valve. Actually, it
doesn't much matter...get the size check valve necessary - I'd think 1 1/2"
would be very generous - and use pipe fittings as needed to marry it to the
pipe. Do you plan to keep the shutoff valves?

I ordered the repair kit - so I'm just waiting for it to arrive.

On Tue, 06 Nov 2012 12:24:25 -0800, Oren wrote:

What?! I paid ~$65.00 at HD for a brand new WATTS brand PRV after
the old one had frozen and cracked six years ago..

Interesting!

Unfortunately, I already ordered the $45
repair kit - but if an entire NEW 1" (ID) check
valve is only a few dollars more, then I goofed!

I should have asked sooner.

On Nov 6, 10:41*am, "dadiOH" wrote:
SNIP

..

So replace it. *What is it, 2"? *You can buy 2" brass check valves for less
than $50.http://www.amazon.com/American-Valve.../dp/B001GLZQAQ

If it isn't 2", here are some more...http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg...=CNO80pT-urMCF...

--

dadiOH
____________________________



A swing check is not a suitable replacement for a vacuum based back
flow preventer.

As Ed has mentioned it is difficult to know if the installation under
discussion "really needs" a backflow preventer but often it's a local
code requirement.

I have / had a similar situation. The back flow preventer (Wilkins/
Zurn) suffered a hard freeze, the unit started to leak.
Someone (who shall remain nameless) volunteered to "take care of it"
for a very small fee since I was too busy to attend to it.

My wife had the guy "take care of it"...
His solution? A $15 swing check valve.

The result? Fast forward a couple years... the city is now sending
out letters requesting the mfr name & unit serial numbers of backflow
preventers. You see, backflow preventers are such sophisticated
devices that they are serialized.

Those "female fittings" on the side are mini 1/4 turn valves that are
used to test the unit's functionality.
In some installations, formal testing at specified intervals is
required.

For OP & anyone else who to learn about backflow preventers I offer...

http://content.zurn.com/web_document...on/ISSM950.pdf

OP-

The link also has troubleshooting info as well.

Ebay is a possible source of reasonably prices units.


cheers
Bob

On Nov 6, 9:07*pm, "Danny D." wrote:
On Tue, 06 Nov 2012 12:24:25 -0800, Oren wrote:
What?! *I paid ~$65.00 at HD *for a brand new WATTS brand PRV after
the old one had frozen and cracked six years ago..

Interesting!

Unfortunately, I already ordered the $45
repair kit - but if an entire NEW 1" (ID) check
valve is only a few dollars more, then I goofed!

I should have asked sooner.

As others have said, a backflow preventer is not just a check valve.

On Nov 6, 12:08*pm, "Ralph Mowery" wrote:
"Danny D." wrote in message

...

Notice the pipe is actually about 1 3/8ths in diameter, so it's
neither 1 inch nor 1.5 inch.

You do realize that pipe is not really measured like it is called ?

It is measured exactly as it's called, by INSIDE diameter.





That is what is called *one inch pipe will actually measuer about 1.3 inches
outside diameter with a ruler.

http://www.pipemarkers.com/pipe-data.php

This is a pipe chart for sizes.

On Tue, 06 Nov 2012 20:48:11 -0800, DD_BobK wrote:

For OP & anyone else who to learn about backflow preventers I offer...
http://content.zurn.com/web_document...on/ISSM950.pdf

That document describes my backflow preventer:
"Zurn Wilkins 1-inch ID Model 975XL Reduced Pressure Principle
Backflow Preventers are for use on potable water lines where a
health hazard could exist if a backflow situation were to occur."

And, that document describes the four test cocks:

1. Start with both shut-off valves closed.
Slowly open the inlet shut-off valve until the backflow preventer is
completely pressurized. A brief discharge from the relief valve may occur
while the device is pressurizing. The discharge should cease by the time
the shut-off valve is fully open. Device should function properly. If the
discharge does not stop, refer to "MAINTENANCE INSTRUCTIONS" for repair
procedures.

2. After the device has been pressurized, vent all trapped air from both
check valve by slightly opening each of the four test cocks.

3. Slowly open the downstream shut-off valve. The Model 975XL Reduced
Pressure Principle Backflow Preventer is now in service.

4. If "spitting" or intermittent discharges from the relief valve are
noted, it could be a result of pressure fluctuation and/or a water hammer
condition in the system. If such conditions exist, install water pressure
reducing valves or water hammer shock arresters in compliance with
industry standards as needed.

5. After the Model 975XL has been properly installed, test the device
(see "TEST PROCEDURES"). If the device fails the test, remove the first
and second check valves and thoroughly flush the device. If the relief
valve fails to operate properly,inspect the sensing passage for clogging
(see "MAINTENANCE INSTRUCTIONS"). Clean rubber seals of all debris and
place unit back in service.

The TROUBLESHOOTING section is apropos for a.h.r.

TROUBLESHOOTING THE MODEL 975XL:
When the relief valve discharges intermittently it can be almost always
assumed that the device is functioning correctly and that the
discharge is caused by systems such as inlet pressure fluctuations or
water hammer due to quick closing valves.

The amount of discharge is proportional to degree of fouling. Most
problems occur in the #1 check which is where debris enters the backflow
preventer first.

1. SUDDEN OR RAPID SPITTING
a. Drop in inlet pressure.
b. Sudden increase in downstream pressure due to water hammer from quick
closing shut-off valve installed downstream.
A. Install an in-line spring loaded check valve upstream of backflow.
B. Install pressure reducing valve upstream of backflow unit.
C. Install in-line spring loaded check valve downstream of backflow as
close to source as possible, but not closer that 4 feet.

2. LIGHT INTERMITTENT DRIP
a. Slightly fouled #1 check.
A. Clean #1 check and turn check valve seal ring over or replace.

NOTE: Continuous discharge of the relief valve signifies a failure of
some part of the device. To help determine the specific area of failure,
close the #2 shut-off valve. If the discharge stops, the #2 check
requires service. If the discharge continues, the #1 check requires
service.

1. CONTINUOUS DISCHARGE

On Tue, 06 Nov 2012 20:48:11 -0800, DD_BobK wrote:

For OP & anyone else who to learn about backflow preventers I offer...
http://content.zurn.com/web_document...on/ISSM950.pdf

That document describes my backflow preventer:
"Zurn Wilkins 1-inch ID Model 975XL Reduced Pressure Principle
Backflow Preventers are for use on potable water lines where a
health hazard could exist if a backflow situation were to occur."

And, that document describes the four test cocks:

1. Start with both shut-off valves closed.
Slowly open the inlet shut-off valve until the backflow preventer is
completely pressurized. A brief discharge from the relief valve may occur
while the device is pressurizing. The discharge should cease by the time
the shut-off valve is fully open. Device should function properly. If the
discharge does not stop, refer to "MAINTENANCE INSTRUCTIONS" for repair
procedures.

2. After the device has been pressurized, vent all trapped air from both
check valve by slightly opening each of the four test cocks.

3. Slowly open the downstream shut-off valve. The Model 975XL Reduced
Pressure Principle Backflow Preventer is now in service.

4. If "spitting" or intermittent discharges from the relief valve are
noted, it could be a result of pressure fluctuation and/or a water hammer
condition in the system. If such conditions exist, install water pressure
reducing valves or water hammer shock arresters in compliance with
industry standards as needed.

5. After the Model 975XL has been properly installed, test the device
(see "TEST PROCEDURES"). If the device fails the test, remove the first
and second check valves and thoroughly flush the device. If the relief
valve fails to operate properly,inspect the sensing passage for clogging
(see "MAINTENANCE INSTRUCTIONS"). Clean rubber seals of all debris and
place unit back in service.

The TROUBLESHOOTING section is apropos for a.h.r.

TROUBLESHOOTING THE MODEL 975XL:
When the relief valve discharges intermittently it can be almost always
assumed that the device is functioning correctly and that the
discharge is caused by systems such as inlet pressure fluctuations or
water hammer due to quick closing valves.

The amount of discharge is proportional to degree of fouling. Most
problems occur in the #1 check which is where debris enters the backflow
preventer first.

1. SUDDEN OR RAPID SPITTING
a. Drop in inlet pressure.
b. Sudden increase in downstream pressure due to water hammer from quick
closing shut-off valve installed downstream.
A. Install an in-line spring loaded check valve upstream of backflow.
B. Install pressure reducing valve upstream of backflow unit.
C. Install in-line spring loaded check valve downstream of backflow as
close to source as possible, but not closer that 4 feet.

2. LIGHT INTERMITTENT DRIP
a. Slightly fouled #1 check.
A. Clean #1 check and turn check valve seal ring over or replace.

NOTE: Continuous discharge of the relief valve signifies a failure of
some part of the device. To help determine the specific area of failure,
close the #2 shut-off valve. If the discharge stops, the #2 check
requires service. If the discharge continues, the #1 check requires
service.

1. CONTINUOUS DISCHARGE
a. Fouled #1 check.
b. Fouled relief valve seat.
c. Fouled #2 check
A. Clean check valves and turn check valve seal rings over or replace.
B. Clean relief valve seat and turn relief valve seal ring over or
replace.

GENERAL MAINTENANCE
1. Clean all parts thoroughly with water after disassembly.
2. Carefully inspect rubber seal rings, diaphragms and o-rings for damage.
3. Test unit after reassembly for proper operation (see "Testing
Procedures").

SERVICING CHECK VALVES
1. Close inlet and outlet shut-off valves.
2. Open No. 2, No. 3 and No. 4 test cocks to release pressure from
valve.
3.Unscrew check valve covers using appropriate size wrench (CAUTION:
Cover is spring loaded).
To avoid injury, hold cover down firmly with one hand while unscrewing.
4. Remove check valve cover, spring and poppet assembly.

5. Inspect the rubber seal ring for cuts or embedded debris. To
remove seal ring, remove screw and seal ring retainer. If the
reverse side of the seal ring is unused, it is possible to invert the
seal ring. This would be considered a temporary solution to fixing
a fouled check and should be replaced with a new seal ring as
soon as possible.

6. Inspect valve cavity and seating area. Remove any debris.

7. If installed with removable seat, unscrew seat from body and
replace with new seat and lightly grease o-ring.*

8. Reverse the above procedures to reinstall check valve assembly.
Care should be taken to make sure the heavy spring is installed in
the No. 1 check valve.

SERVICING RELIEF VALVE
1. Remove relief valve cover bolts and cover. Gently pull on diaphragm to
remove the cartridge assembly.
2. Inspect seal ring for cuts and embedded debris. Turn over or replace
if required.
3. Disassemble cartridge by unscrewing relief valve retaining screw.
4. Inspect diaphragm and o-rings for damage. Replace required
parts and apply a light coat of grease to plunger o-ring.
5. Carefully reassemble cartridge assembly.
6. Inspect relief valve seat for wear on seating surface. If damaged,
replace seat and seat o-ring.*
7. Insert cartridge assembly into relief valve body.
8. Replace relief valve cover and cover bolts.
9. Place device in service and test per "TESTING PROCEDURES".

*For seat removal assistance, consult factory.

WILKINS, a ZURN company
1747 Commerce Way, Paso Robles, CA 93446 Phone:805-238-7100

wrote in message
...
On Nov 6, 12:08 pm, "Ralph Mowery" wrote:

You do realize that pipe is not really measured like it is called ?

It is measured exactly as it's called, by INSIDE diameter.

Not EXACTLY.. It depends on the thickness of the pipe. Schedule 40 pipe
is 1.049 inches inside, and sched 80 is .957 inches inside.

Pipe is the same outside diameter so it will all thread together for the
same size. Some pipe has thicker walls than others so the only way to go is
to make the inside diameter smaller.

Again look at the chart.

http://www.pipemarkers.com/pipe-data.php

Jumping in late but just so you know...

Plumbers are odd folks compared to carpenters. A carpenter wants to know
how big a hole to drill for the pipe to fit through. The plumber measures
the inside diameter to know how much water he can get to flow through it.

I've had many a weekend warrior insist the 1/2" pipe he has in his hand is
really 3/4" and he is right as far as the size hole he needs to drill in the
joist but not as far as what should be on the label of the fittings he
needs. Let's face it, all the labels in my and every other store can not be
wrong so the way you look at it needs to be adjusted.


"Danny D." wrote in message
...
On Tue, 06 Nov 2012 12:08:56 -0500, Ralph Mowery wrote:

You do realize that pipe is not really measured like it is called ?

I do now!

Thanks.

On Saturday, July 19, 2014 3:05:29 AM UTC-7, Krazy Old Man wrote:
Jumping in late but just so you know...

Plumbers are odd folks compared to carpenters. A carpenter wants to know
how big a hole to drill for the pipe to fit through. The plumber measures

the inside diameter to know how much water he can get to flow through it.

I've had many a weekend warrior insist the 1/2" pipe he has in his hand is
really 3/4" and he is right as far as the size hole he needs to drill in the
joist but not as far as what should be on the label of the fittings he
needs. Let's face it, all the labels in my and every other store can not be
wrong so the way you look at it needs to be adjusted.


snip

I've also had instances of them wondering why a 1/2" socket doesn't fit their 1/2" bolt. Best one was my neighbor who was building a two story addition. Stopped by and asked if it would rip several 1X4 in half to use as window casings. I did as asked. He showed back up complaining they were too narrow. I suspect he didn't believe my explanation that a 1x4 is only aobut 3 1/2" wide - bet he checked hat the lumber yard .

Of course he was a 'country boy' but scoffed when I told him he needed to fence off that row of young trees he had just planted as his cows would eat them if he didn't. He didn't and they did .

Harry K