Lived in this house 35 years. Now wife needs a handrail to get up/down
front steps. Planning on going with metal railing, 36" high.. Posts are 2x2
with a square bottom flange with four holes for bolts. The manufacturer
recommends 3/8" x 4" expansion anchors for attaching posts to the concrete
steps.

The problem: A few years ago I overlaid the steps and sidewalk with
decorative concrete "stones" which are 11 x 14 x 3 1/2" thick. Two layers.
So, the concrete steps are 7" below the surface of the stones. The stones
are held in place with construction adhesive, which has been satisfactory so
far. But definitely will not hold the stones securely enough to support a
handrail. I could use 12" long expansion anchors to penetrate to the
concrete steps but they are 3/4" diameter and I'm concerned about the "swiss
cheese" effect on the concrete. Alternately, I could use 5/8" x 10" anchors
with only 3" in the step concrete, which would probably have enough holding
power and slightly less "swiss cheese".

What are the other options for securing the posts, if any? I would be
especially interested the approach others have successfully used in a
similar situation.

On Sep 12, 10:09*pm, "David" wrote:
Lived in this house 35 years. *Now wife needs a handrail to get up/down
front steps. *Planning on going with metal railing, 36" high.. Posts are 2x2
with a square bottom flange with four holes for bolts. *The manufacturer
recommends 3/8" x 4" expansion anchors for attaching posts to the concrete
steps.

The problem: *A few years ago I overlaid the steps and sidewalk with
decorative concrete "stones" which are 11 x 14 x 3 1/2" thick. *Two layers.
So, the concrete steps are 7" below the surface of the stones. *The stones
are held in place with construction adhesive, which has been satisfactory so
far. *But definitely will not hold the stones securely enough to support a
handrail. * I could use 12" long expansion anchors to penetrate to the
concrete steps but they are 3/4" diameter and I'm concerned about the "swiss
cheese" effect on the concrete. *Alternately, I could use 5/8" x 10" anchors
with only 3" in the step concrete, which would probably have enough holding
power and slightly less "swiss cheese".

What are the other options for securing the posts, if any? *I would be
especially interested the approach others have successfully used in a
similar situation.

Your 10" solution sounds like the best idea, I would also put
construction adhesive liberallly around the bolts to keep any water
out of the holes, a good idea if you are located north of the gulf
states and have freezing weather.

1.“2x2 with a square bottom flange with four holes for bolts”
seems to me like a bad design.
With four holes it should be at least 4x4.
2.Personally I don’t like expansion anchors
and find them too weak.
I prefer using drop anchors,
but you do need to be very exact in the depth
of the hole you drill for them and blow out the dust
frequently while you drill.
3.I would use two part epoxy adhesive

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1...&storeId=10051


and possibly wait at leas 24 hours
between each hole on one post before drilling the next one.

On 9/12/2012 10:08 PM, David wrote:
Lived in this house 35 years. Now wife needs a handrail to get up/down
front steps. Planning on going with metal railing, 36" high.. Posts are 2x2
with a square bottom flange with four holes for bolts. The manufacturer
recommends 3/8" x 4" expansion anchors for attaching posts to the concrete
steps.

The problem: A few years ago I overlaid the steps and sidewalk with
decorative concrete "stones" which are 11 x 14 x 3 1/2" thick. Two layers.
So, the concrete steps are 7" below the surface of the stones. The stones
are held in place with construction adhesive, which has been satisfactory so
far. But definitely will not hold the stones securely enough to support a
handrail. I could use 12" long expansion anchors to penetrate to the
concrete steps but they are 3/4" diameter and I'm concerned about the "swiss
cheese" effect on the concrete. Alternately, I could use 5/8" x 10" anchors
with only 3" in the step concrete, which would probably have enough holding
power and slightly less "swiss cheese".

What are the other options for securing the posts, if any? I would be
especially interested the approach others have successfully used in a
similar situation.

When I was much younger, and didn't know _how_ to anchor a handrail to
our concrete porch/steps, I came up with a perfectly acceptable
workaround that stands to this day. I used sections of 4x4 cedar
posts. Dug holes right alongside the bottom stop and the porch slab
and stood the sections upright (in concrete) so their tops were level
with the step and porch. Then I bolted the handrail into the top of
the posts. Presto: handrail firmly secured right alongside the edge of
the steps. Bonus: since the concrete wasn't touched, there has been no
cracking or patching needed, which is more than can be said of my
neighbor's porch, where he mounted his handrail directly into the
concrete.

On Sep 12, 8:09*pm, "David" wrote:
Lived in this house 35 years. *Now wife needs a handrail to get up/down
front steps. *Planning on going with metal railing, 36" high.. Posts are 2x2
with a square bottom flange with four holes for bolts. *The manufacturer
recommends 3/8" x 4" expansion anchors for attaching posts to the concrete
steps.

The problem: *A few years ago I overlaid the steps and sidewalk with
decorative concrete "stones" which are 11 x 14 x 3 1/2" thick. *Two layers.
So, the concrete steps are 7" below the surface of the stones. *The stones
are held in place with construction adhesive, which has been satisfactory so
far. *But definitely will not hold the stones securely enough to support a
handrail. * I could use 12" long expansion anchors to penetrate to the
concrete steps but they are 3/4" diameter and I'm concerned about the "swiss
cheese" effect on the concrete. *Alternately, I could use 5/8" x 10" anchors
with only 3" in the step concrete, which would probably have enough holding
power and slightly less "swiss cheese".

What are the other options for securing the posts, if any? *I would be
especially interested the approach others have successfully used in a
similar situation.

How about doing way with the square mounting plate and mount them to
the side of the steps? Of course it then wouldn't be
36" high. Perhaps sistering on another piece of 2x2 to lengthen the
posts.

Harry K

On Sep 12, 8:09*pm, "David" wrote:
Lived in this house 35 years. *Now wife needs a handrail to get up/down
front steps. *Planning on going with metal railing, 36" high.. Posts are 2x2
with a square bottom flange with four holes for bolts. *The manufacturer
recommends 3/8" x 4" expansion anchors for attaching posts to the concrete
steps.

The problem: *A few years ago I overlaid the steps and sidewalk with
decorative concrete "stones" which are 11 x 14 x 3 1/2" thick. *Two layers.
So, the concrete steps are 7" below the surface of the stones. *The stones
are held in place with construction adhesive, which has been satisfactory so
far. *But definitely will not hold the stones securely enough to support a
handrail. * I could use 12" long expansion anchors to penetrate to the
concrete steps but they are 3/4" diameter and I'm concerned about the "swiss
cheese" effect on the concrete. *Alternately, I could use 5/8" x 10" anchors
with only 3" in the step concrete, which would probably have enough holding
power and slightly less "swiss cheese".

What are the other options for securing the posts, if any? *I would be
especially interested the approach others have successfully used in a
similar situation.

Retrofitting a house for a disabled is not a fun job. I wound up with
handrails/grab bars everyplace there was a spot to mount one.
The project also pointed out that 28" doors (common back in the day)
are _not_ a "good thing"!

Harry K

On Sep 13, 10:09*am, Hell Toupee wrote:
On 9/12/2012 10:08 PM, David wrote:





Lived in this house 35 years. *Now wife needs a handrail to get up/down
front steps. *Planning on going with metal railing, 36" high.. Posts are 2x2
with a square bottom flange with four holes for bolts. *The manufacturer
recommends 3/8" x 4" expansion anchors for attaching posts to the concrete
steps.

The problem: *A few years ago I overlaid the steps and sidewalk with
decorative concrete "stones" which are 11 x 14 x 3 1/2" thick. *Two layers.
So, the concrete steps are 7" below the surface of the stones. *The stones
are held in place with construction adhesive, which has been satisfactory so
far. *But definitely will not hold the stones securely enough to support a
handrail. * I could use 12" long expansion anchors to penetrate to the
concrete steps but they are 3/4" diameter and I'm concerned about the "swiss
cheese" effect on the concrete. *Alternately, I could use 5/8" x 10" anchors
with only 3" in the step concrete, which would probably have enough holding
power and slightly less "swiss cheese".

What are the other options for securing the posts, if any? *I would be
especially interested the approach others have successfully used in a
similar situation.

When I was much younger, and didn't know _how_ to anchor a handrail to
our concrete porch/steps, I came up with a perfectly acceptable
workaround that stands to this day. I used sections of 4x4 cedar
posts. Dug holes right alongside the bottom stop and the porch slab
and stood the sections upright (in concrete) so their tops were level
with the step and porch. Then I bolted the handrail into the top of
the posts. Presto: handrail firmly secured right alongside the edge of
the steps. Bonus: since the concrete wasn't touched, there has been no
cracking or patching needed, which is more than can be said of my
neighbor's porch, where he mounted his handrail directly into the
concrete.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

My neighbor did a similar thing, except that he designed his own
railing.

He used 1 x 4 cedar boards, laid flat from post to post, top and
bottom, and added some nice wrought iron spindles.

The 1 x 4 gives a nice flat surface for coffee cups, packages, etc. as
you are using the front door or standing on the stoop.

The difference was that he had no actual steps to worry about, just a
single step down from the stoop slab to the walkway, so his railing
was a simple horizontal section.

On Wednesday, September 12, 2012 10:09:21 PM UTC-5, David wrote:
Lived in this house 35 years. Now wife needs a handrail to get up/down

front steps. Planning on going with metal railing, 36" high.. Posts are 2x2

with a square bottom flange with four holes for bolts. The manufacturer

recommends 3/8" x 4" expansion anchors for attaching posts to the concrete

steps.



The problem: A few years ago I overlaid the steps and sidewalk with

decorative concrete "stones" which are 11 x 14 x 3 1/2" thick. Two layers.

So, the concrete steps are 7" below the surface of the stones. The stones

are held in place with construction adhesive, which has been satisfactory so

far. But definitely will not hold the stones securely enough to support a

handrail. I could use 12" long expansion anchors to penetrate to the

concrete steps but they are 3/4" diameter and I'm concerned about the "swiss

cheese" effect on the concrete. Alternately, I could use 5/8" x 10" anchors

with only 3" in the step concrete, which would probably have enough holding

power and slightly less "swiss cheese".



What are the other options for securing the posts, if any? I would be

especially interested the approach others have successfully used in a

similar situation.

It's a good suggestion and one that I considered. Two trees located adjacent to the sidwalk/steps would cause interference with any outboard railing approach.

On Thursday, September 13, 2012 9:39:40 AM UTC-5, Harry K wrote:
On Sep 12, 8:09*pm, "David" wrote:

Lived in this house 35 years. *Now wife needs a handrail to get up/down

front steps. *Planning on going with metal railing, 36" high.. Posts are 2x2

with a square bottom flange with four holes for bolts. *The manufacturer

recommends 3/8" x 4" expansion anchors for attaching posts to the concrete

steps.



The problem: *A few years ago I overlaid the steps and sidewalk with

decorative concrete "stones" which are 11 x 14 x 3 1/2" thick. *Two layers.

So, the concrete steps are 7" below the surface of the stones. *The stones

are held in place with construction adhesive, which has been satisfactory so

far. *But definitely will not hold the stones securely enough to support a

handrail. * I could use 12" long expansion anchors to penetrate to the

concrete steps but they are 3/4" diameter and I'm concerned about the "swiss

cheese" effect on the concrete. *Alternately, I could use 5/8" x 10" anchors

with only 3" in the step concrete, which would probably have enough holding

power and slightly less "swiss cheese".



What are the other options for securing the posts, if any? *I would be

especially interested the approach others have successfully used in a

similar situation.



How about doing way with the square mounting plate and mount them to

the side of the steps? Of course it then wouldn't be

36" high. Perhaps sistering on another piece of 2x2 to lengthen the

posts.



Harry K

It's the same problem as with using treated posts in the ground adjacent to the steps: interference from large trees next to the steps.

On Thursday, September 13, 2012 10:22:52 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sep 13, 10:09*am, Hell Toupee wrote:

On 9/12/2012 10:08 PM, David wrote:











Lived in this house 35 years. *Now wife needs a handrail to get up/down

front steps. *Planning on going with metal railing, 36" high.. Posts are 2x2

with a square bottom flange with four holes for bolts. *The manufacturer

recommends 3/8" x 4" expansion anchors for attaching posts to the concrete

steps.



The problem: *A few years ago I overlaid the steps and sidewalk with

decorative concrete "stones" which are 11 x 14 x 3 1/2" thick. *Two layers.

So, the concrete steps are 7" below the surface of the stones. *The stones

are held in place with construction adhesive, which has been satisfactory so

far. *But definitely will not hold the stones securely enough to support a

handrail. * I could use 12" long expansion anchors to penetrate to the

concrete steps but they are 3/4" diameter and I'm concerned about the "swiss

cheese" effect on the concrete. *Alternately, I could use 5/8" x 10" anchors

with only 3" in the step concrete, which would probably have enough holding

power and slightly less "swiss cheese".



What are the other options for securing the posts, if any? *I would be

especially interested the approach others have successfully used in a

similar situation.



When I was much younger, and didn't know _how_ to anchor a handrail to

our concrete porch/steps, I came up with a perfectly acceptable

workaround that stands to this day. I used sections of 4x4 cedar

posts. Dug holes right alongside the bottom stop and the porch slab

and stood the sections upright (in concrete) so their tops were level

with the step and porch. Then I bolted the handrail into the top of

the posts. Presto: handrail firmly secured right alongside the edge of

the steps. Bonus: since the concrete wasn't touched, there has been no

cracking or patching needed, which is more than can be said of my

neighbor's porch, where he mounted his handrail directly into the

concrete.- Hide quoted text -



- Show quoted text -



My neighbor did a similar thing, except that he designed his own

railing.



He used 1 x 4 cedar boards, laid flat from post to post, top and

bottom, and added some nice wrought iron spindles.



The 1 x 4 gives a nice flat surface for coffee cups, packages, etc. as

you are using the front door or standing on the stoop.



The difference was that he had no actual steps to worry about, just a

single step down from the stoop slab to the walkway, so his railing

was a simple horizontal section.

The wife wants metal railings. 'Nuff said.

On Sep 13, 12:18*pm, wrote:
On Thursday, September 13, 2012 10:22:52 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sep 13, 10:09*am, Hell Toupee wrote:

On 9/12/2012 10:08 PM, David wrote:

Lived in this house 35 years. *Now wife needs a handrail to get up/down

front steps. *Planning on going with metal railing, 36" high.. Posts are 2x2

with a square bottom flange with four holes for bolts. *The manufacturer

recommends 3/8" x 4" expansion anchors for attaching posts to the concrete

steps.

The problem: *A few years ago I overlaid the steps and sidewalk with

decorative concrete "stones" which are 11 x 14 x 3 1/2" thick. *Two layers.

So, the concrete steps are 7" below the surface of the stones. *The stones

are held in place with construction adhesive, which has been satisfactory so

far. *But definitely will not hold the stones securely enough to support a

handrail. * I could use 12" long expansion anchors to penetrate to the

concrete steps but they are 3/4" diameter and I'm concerned about the "swiss

cheese" effect on the concrete. *Alternately, I could use 5/8" x 10" anchors

with only 3" in the step concrete, which would probably have enough holding

power and slightly less "swiss cheese".

What are the other options for securing the posts, if any? *I would be

especially interested the approach others have successfully used in a

similar situation.

When I was much younger, and didn't know _how_ to anchor a handrail to

our concrete porch/steps, I came up with a perfectly acceptable

workaround that stands to this day. I used sections of 4x4 cedar

posts. Dug holes right alongside the bottom stop and the porch slab

and stood the sections upright (in concrete) so their tops were level

with the step and porch. Then I bolted the handrail into the top of

the posts. Presto: handrail firmly secured right alongside the edge of

the steps. Bonus: since the concrete wasn't touched, there has been no

cracking or patching needed, which is more than can be said of my

neighbor's porch, where he mounted his handrail directly into the

concrete.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

My neighbor did a similar thing, except that he designed his own

railing.

He used 1 x 4 cedar boards, laid flat from post to post, top and

bottom, and added some nice wrought iron spindles.

The 1 x 4 gives a nice flat surface for coffee cups, packages, etc. as

you are using the front door or standing on the stoop.

The difference was that he had no actual steps to worry about, just a

single step down from the stoop slab to the walkway, so his railing

was a simple horizontal section.

The wife wants metal railings. *'Nuff said.

use 1 or 2 inch pipe, drill large enough hole to bury pipe 6 inches
into ground, anchored with hydralic cement... the railing part gets
welded to the poles, and once its all cleaned up, paint well..

for railings supporting people on a regular basis this is the safest
best way

On Sep 12, 10:09*pm, "David" wrote:
Lived in this house 35 years. *Now wife needs a handrail to get up/down
front steps. *Planning on going with metal railing, 36" high.. Posts are 2x2
with a square bottom flange with four holes for bolts. *The manufacturer
recommends 3/8" x 4" expansion anchors for attaching posts to the concrete
steps.

The problem: *A few years ago I overlaid the steps and sidewalk with
decorative concrete "stones" which are 11 x 14 x 3 1/2" thick. *Two layers.
So, the concrete steps are 7" below the surface of the stones. *The stones
are held in place with construction adhesive, which has been satisfactory so
far. *But definitely will not hold the stones securely enough to support a
handrail. * I could use 12" long expansion anchors to penetrate to the
concrete steps but they are 3/4" diameter and I'm concerned about the "swiss
cheese" effect on the concrete. *Alternately, I could use 5/8" x 10" anchors
with only 3" in the step concrete, which would probably have enough holding
power and slightly less "swiss cheese".

What are the other options for securing the posts, if any? *I would be
especially interested the approach others have successfully used in a
similar situation.

I like the idea of building the railing along side of the steps, you
can always tie the vertical posts to the side of the steps for extra
strength. Overall it is a good idea if you can get access to the
ground next to the stairs.

On Sep 13, 9:13*am, wrote:
On Wednesday, September 12, 2012 10:09:21 PM UTC-5, David wrote:
Lived in this house 35 years. *Now wife needs a handrail to get up/down

front steps. *Planning on going with metal railing, 36" high.. Posts are 2x2

with a square bottom flange with four holes for bolts. *The manufacturer

recommends 3/8" x 4" expansion anchors for attaching posts to the concrete

steps.

The problem: *A few years ago I overlaid the steps and sidewalk with

decorative concrete "stones" which are 11 x 14 x 3 1/2" thick. *Two layers.

So, the concrete steps are 7" below the surface of the stones. *The stones

are held in place with construction adhesive, which has been satisfactory so

far. *But definitely will not hold the stones securely enough to support a

handrail. * I could use 12" long expansion anchors to penetrate to the

concrete steps but they are 3/4" diameter and I'm concerned about the "swiss

cheese" effect on the concrete. *Alternately, I could use 5/8" x 10" anchors

with only 3" in the step concrete, which would probably have enough holding

power and slightly less "swiss cheese".

What are the other options for securing the posts, if any? *I would be

especially interested the approach others have successfully used in a

similar situation.

It's a good suggestion and one that I considered. Two trees located adjacent to the sidwalk/steps would cause interference with any outboard railing approach.

Can we get a picture of the steps/trees? They must be growing way too
close.

Harry K

On Sep 13, 9:13*am, wrote:
On Wednesday, September 12, 2012 10:09:21 PM UTC-5, David wrote:
Lived in this house 35 years. *Now wife needs a handrail to get up/down

front steps. *Planning on going with metal railing, 36" high.. Posts are 2x2

with a square bottom flange with four holes for bolts. *The manufacturer

recommends 3/8" x 4" expansion anchors for attaching posts to the concrete

steps.

The problem: *A few years ago I overlaid the steps and sidewalk with

decorative concrete "stones" which are 11 x 14 x 3 1/2" thick. *Two layers.

So, the concrete steps are 7" below the surface of the stones. *The stones

are held in place with construction adhesive, which has been satisfactory so

far. *But definitely will not hold the stones securely enough to support a

handrail. * I could use 12" long expansion anchors to penetrate to the

concrete steps but they are 3/4" diameter and I'm concerned about the "swiss

cheese" effect on the concrete. *Alternately, I could use 5/8" x 10" anchors

with only 3" in the step concrete, which would probably have enough holding

power and slightly less "swiss cheese".

What are the other options for securing the posts, if any? *I would be

especially interested the approach others have successfully used in a

similar situation.

It's a good suggestion and one that I considered. Two trees located adjacent to the sidwalk/steps would cause interference with any outboard railing approach.

Ooops. I can see how a juniper or two would do it.

Harry K

On Sep 12, 8:09*pm, "David" wrote:
Lived in this house 35 years. *Now wife needs a handrail to get up/down
front steps. *Planning on going with metal railing, 36" high.. Posts are 2x2
with a square bottom flange with four holes for bolts. *The manufacturer
recommends 3/8" x 4" expansion anchors for attaching posts to the concrete
steps.

The problem: *A few years ago I overlaid the steps and sidewalk with
decorative concrete "stones" which are 11 x 14 x 3 1/2" thick. *Two layers.
So, the concrete steps are 7" below the surface of the stones. *The stones
are held in place with construction adhesive, which has been satisfactory so
far. *But definitely will not hold the stones securely enough to support a
handrail. * I could use 12" long expansion anchors to penetrate to the
concrete steps but they are 3/4" diameter and I'm concerned about the "swiss
cheese" effect on the concrete. *Alternately, I could use 5/8" x 10" anchors
with only 3" in the step concrete, which would probably have enough holding
power and slightly less "swiss cheese".

What are the other options for securing the posts, if any? *I would be
especially interested the approach others have successfully used in a
similar situation.

Depending on the material used in the manufacture of the railing...I'd
be a bit suspect of the strength & stiffness of a 2x2 with square
bottom flange.

Getting a railing to perform using a bolted flange connection is not
easy/
A railing needs substantial anchoring force, like a 1" x 1" solid
square stock embedded into the concrete.
A square bottom flange would have to be pretty stout to do the job.

Look at the base of a bolted light pole. The pole / base plate joint
is heavily gusseted.

Use 3/8" stainless threaded rod, it's not expensive at Mcmaster-Carr.
Get a couple 6' pieces and you'll have plenty of length to reach into
the concrete.

I'd recommend Rapid Set epoxy adhesive.... cheaper than Simpson and
uses a standard caulking gun

http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay?...llow&cId=PDIO1

Help prevent damage to your brick overlay by "debonding" the threaded
rod where it passes through the brick.
Wrap the threaded rod with tape in the zone where it will attempt to
bond to the brick. Using a substantial rod length will allow the rod
to anchor into the concrete. The tape will prevent bonding to brick &
lessen the likeihood that the the railing anchors could pull the brick
loose.

cheers
Bob

PS I wrote my reply before I saw 's post. I
would concur with his comments.

On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 22:08:07 -0500, "David" wrote:

Lived in this house 35 years. Now wife needs a handrail to get up/down
front steps. Planning on going with metal railing, 36" high.. Posts are 2x2
with a square bottom flange with four holes for bolts. The manufacturer
recommends 3/8" x 4" expansion anchors for attaching posts to the concrete
steps.

The problem: A few years ago I overlaid the steps and sidewalk with
decorative concrete "stones" which are 11 x 14 x 3 1/2" thick. Two layers.
So, the concrete steps are 7" below the surface of the stones. The stones
are held in place with construction adhesive, which has been satisfactory so
far. But definitely will not hold the stones securely enough to support a
handrail. I could use 12" long expansion anchors to penetrate to the
concrete steps but they are 3/4" diameter and I'm concerned about the "swiss
cheese" effect on the concrete. Alternately, I could use 5/8" x 10" anchors
with only 3" in the step concrete, which would probably have enough holding
power and slightly less "swiss cheese".

What are the other options for securing the posts, if any? I would be
especially interested the approach others have successfully used in a
similar situation.


I haven't done this but one thought I have is to get some 3/8"
threaded rod. Drill 1/2" holes thru the "stones" and around 3" into
the concrete steps. Test fit things so you get the length of the
threaded rod correct for each location. Then epoxy the threaded rods
into the concrete, use a low viscosity epoxy and pour enough in to
fill up the part in the concrete, I probably would not fill the entire
hole up to the top with it as it would tend to cause the upper part to
get loaded when you tighten it, you only want to pull on the bottom
part so you don't lift the "stones".