I have a house that was built in 1980 and utilizes a subfloor of a compund I have never seen in a house, before or after this house was built. The material is a gray, almost pressed paper looking material that is a full 1-1/2" thick. The problem is that over the last 32 years, the subfloor has drooped a bit between the floor joists, and the joists themselves may not be the straightest, either. Nevertheless, we are determined to put an engineered flooring in and I am at An impass. I purchased and laid 3/8" plywood over about 250 feet of flooring (1 bedroom and 2 hallways and a bathroom) and began laying my flooring. The plywood did not take out enough of the differences from the peaks to the valleys to make the flooring install correctly. I realized this after installing it in the bedroom, and I pulled it back up to address the subfloor.

The subfloor has up to a 3/8" difference across different parts of the floor. I am considering using a self leveling compound, but posts I've read state that it's not the best on big floors and the bedroom itself is about 150' and it needs it all over the floor. Additionally, There is still some flex where the plywood did not completely adhere to the original subfloor and I fear the self leveling compound will break up over time.

I am at a standstill and completely clueless as to what to do. I have already committed several sheets of plywood down with glue and nails, so ripping out the original subfloor and replacing it is a bigger task.

Any thoughts or directions would certainly be appreciated.

Thanks,
Mark

On Jul 19, 4:15*pm, Mark Bolton
wrote:
I have a house that was built in 1980 and utilizes a subfloor of a
compund I have never seen in a house, before or after this house was
built. The material is a gray, almost pressed paper looking material
that is a full 1-1/2" thick. *The problem is that over the last 32
years, the subfloor has drooped a bit between the floor joists, and the
joists themselves may not be the straightest, either. *Nevertheless, we
are determined to put an engineered flooring in and I am at An impass. I
purchased and laid 3/8" plywood over about 250 feet of flooring (1
bedroom and 2 hallways and a bathroom) and began laying my flooring.
The plywood did not take out enough of the differences from the peaks to
the valleys to make the flooring install correctly. I realized this
after installing it in the bedroom, and I pulled it back up to address
the subfloor.

The subfloor has up to a 3/8" difference across different parts of the
floor. *I am considering using a self leveling compound, but posts I've
read state that it's not the best on big floors and the bedroom itself
is about 150' and it needs it all over the floor. *Additionally, There
is still some flex where the plywood did not completely adhere to the
original subfloor and I fear the self leveling compound will break up
over time.

I am at a standstill and completely clueless as to what to do. *I have
already committed several sheets of plywood down with glue and nails, so
ripping out the original subfloor and replacing it is a bigger task.

Any thoughts or directions would certainly be appreciated.

Thanks,
Mark

--
Mark Bolton

You will have to put up cross-bracing between the joists at an
absolute minimum. Probably the best thing to do is to sister new
joists along side the original joists, but doing this only after
jacking up the oriiginal joists to somewhat highr than perfectly
horizointal and then putting in the sistering. You may have to put in
both the sistering and the cross-joists if you want a really stiff and
level floor. The only other possibility is to put in a new heavy-duty
joist/beam cross-wise under the lowest point of the sagging joists and
then jacking up the new beam somehow until the floors are level. You
may have to do this separately for each room, depending on the floor
joist pattern. Glad this is not my house.

Mark Bolton wrote:

I have a house that was built in 1980 and utilizes a subfloor of a
compund I have never seen in a house, before or after this house was
built. The material is a gray, almost pressed paper looking material
that is a full 1-1/2" thick. The problem is that over the last 32
years, the subfloor has drooped a bit between the floor joists, and the
joists themselves may not be the straightest, either. Nevertheless, we
are determined to put an engineered flooring in and I am at An impass. I
purchased and laid 3/8" plywood over about 250 feet of flooring (1
bedroom and 2 hallways and a bathroom) and began laying my flooring.
The plywood did not take out enough of the differences from the peaks to
the valleys to make the flooring install correctly. I realized this
after installing it in the bedroom, and I pulled it back up to address
the subfloor.

The subfloor has up to a 3/8" difference across different parts of the
floor. I am considering using a self leveling compound, but posts I've
read state that it's not the best on big floors and the bedroom itself
is about 150' and it needs it all over the floor. Additionally, There
is still some flex where the plywood did not completely adhere to the
original subfloor and I fear the self leveling compound will break up
over time.

I am at a standstill and completely clueless as to what to do. I have
already committed several sheets of plywood down with glue and nails, so
ripping out the original subfloor and replacing it is a bigger task.

Any thoughts or directions would certainly be appreciated.

Thanks,
Mark

--
Mark Bolton

I'm afraid your best option is to get out your circular saw, cut through
the funky subfloor around the perimeter and rip the stuff out. Replace
with two layers of 3/4" ply glued to the joists with construction
adhesive and fastened with screws or screw shank nails and more adhesive
between layers with the joints staggered. Then install your new
flooring.

On Jul 19, 7:45*pm, "Pete C." wrote:
Mark Bolton wrote:

I have a house that was built in 1980 and utilizes a subfloor of a
compund I have never seen in a house, before or after this house was
built. The material is a gray, almost pressed paper looking material
that is a full 1-1/2" thick. *The problem is that over the last 32
years, the subfloor has drooped a bit between the floor joists, and the
joists themselves may not be the straightest, either. *Nevertheless, we
are determined to put an engineered flooring in and I am at An impass. I
purchased and laid 3/8" plywood over about 250 feet of flooring (1
bedroom and 2 hallways and a bathroom) and began laying my flooring.
The plywood did not take out enough of the differences from the peaks to
the valleys to make the flooring install correctly. I realized this
after installing it in the bedroom, and I pulled it back up to address
the subfloor.

The subfloor has up to a 3/8" difference across different parts of the
floor. *I am considering using a self leveling compound, but posts I've
read state that it's not the best on big floors and the bedroom itself
is about 150' and it needs it all over the floor. *Additionally, There
is still some flex where the plywood did not completely adhere to the
original subfloor and I fear the self leveling compound will break up
over time.

I am at a standstill and completely clueless as to what to do. *I have
already committed several sheets of plywood down with glue and nails, so
ripping out the original subfloor and replacing it is a bigger task.

Any thoughts or directions would certainly be appreciated.

Thanks,
Mark

--
Mark Bolton

I'm afraid your best option is to get out your circular saw, cut through
the funky subfloor around the perimeter and rip the stuff out. Replace
with two layers of 3/4" ply glued to the joists with construction
adhesive and fastened with screws or screw shank nails and more adhesive
between layers with the joints staggered. Then install your new
flooring.

Yep. Anything fastened to the failed subfloor is only "polishing
faeces".

Harry K

Mark Bolton wrote:

I have a house that was built in 1980 and utilizes a subfloor of a
compund I have never seen in a house, before or after this house was
built. The material is a gray, almost pressed paper looking material
that is a full 1-1/2" thick. The problem is that over the last 32
years, the subfloor has drooped a bit between the floor joists, and the
joists themselves may not be the straightest, either. Nevertheless, we
are determined to put an engineered flooring in and I am at An impass. I
purchased and laid 3/8" plywood over about 250 feet of flooring (1
bedroom and 2 hallways and a bathroom) and began laying my flooring.
The plywood did not take out enough of the differences from the peaks to
the valleys to make the flooring install correctly. I realized this
after installing it in the bedroom, and I pulled it back up to address
the subfloor.

The subfloor has up to a 3/8" difference across different parts of the
floor. I am considering using a self leveling compound, but posts I've
read state that it's not the best on big floors and the bedroom itself
is about 150' and it needs it all over the floor. Additionally, There
is still some flex where the plywood did not completely adhere to the
original subfloor and I fear the self leveling compound will break up
over time.

I am at a standstill and completely clueless as to what to do. I have
already committed several sheets of plywood down with glue and nails, so
ripping out the original subfloor and replacing it is a bigger task.

Any thoughts or directions would certainly be appreciated.


Sounds like Homasote, a rather pricey sound deadening board.

I've used it in combination with existing 3/4" subfloor, but it
apparently is also available as an all-in-one floor decking, which
sounds like what you have:

http://www.homasote.com/products/4-Way-Floor-Deck.aspx

I'd contact the mfr. for advice before doing anything extreme like
removing it.

On Thursday, July 19, 2012 5:15:25 PM UTC-4, Mark Bolton wrote:
I have a house that was built in 1980 and utilizes a subfloor of a
compund I have never seen in a house, before or after this house was
built. The material is a gray, almost pressed paper looking material
that is a full 1-1/2" thick. The problem is that over the last 32
years, the subfloor has drooped a bit between the floor joists, and the
joists themselves may not be the straightest, either. Nevertheless, we
are determined to put an engineered flooring in and I am at An impass. I
purchased and laid 3/8" plywood over about 250 feet of flooring (1
bedroom and 2 hallways and a bathroom) and began laying my flooring.
The plywood did not take out enough of the differences from the peaks to
the valleys to make the flooring install correctly. I realized this
after installing it in the bedroom, and I pulled it back up to address
the subfloor.

The subfloor has up to a 3/8" difference across different parts of the
floor. I am considering using a self leveling compound, but posts I've
read state that it's not the best on big floors and the bedroom itself
is about 150' and it needs it all over the floor. Additionally, There
is still some flex where the plywood did not completely adhere to the
original subfloor and I fear the self leveling compound will break up
over time.

I am at a standstill and completely clueless as to what to do. I have
already committed several sheets of plywood down with glue and nails, so
ripping out the original subfloor and replacing it is a bigger task.

Any thoughts or directions would certainly be appreciated.

Thanks,
Mark




--
Mark Bolton

first pull up your junk sub floor, inspect and repair if needed your joists, shim level joists, then install new sub floor, and your probably better off to go with a real hardwood finish floor, you can buy it pre finished.

self level material on a bad floor is just a waste of time.

On 7/19/2012 5:15 PM, Mark Bolton wrote:
I have a house that was built in 1980 and utilizes a subfloor of a
compund I have never seen in a house, before or after this house was
built. The material is a gray, almost pressed paper looking material
that is a full 1-1/2" thick. The problem is that over the last 32
years, the subfloor has drooped a bit between the floor joists, and the
joists themselves may not be the straightest, either. Nevertheless, we
are determined to put an engineered flooring in and I am at An impass. I
purchased and laid 3/8" plywood over about 250 feet of flooring (1
bedroom and 2 hallways and a bathroom) and began laying my flooring.
The plywood did not take out enough of the differences from the peaks to
the valleys to make the flooring install correctly. I realized this
after installing it in the bedroom, and I pulled it back up to address
the subfloor.

The subfloor has up to a 3/8" difference across different parts of the
floor. I am considering using a self leveling compound, but posts I've
read state that it's not the best on big floors and the bedroom itself
is about 150' and it needs it all over the floor. Additionally, There
is still some flex where the plywood did not completely adhere to the
original subfloor and I fear the self leveling compound will break up
over time.

I am at a standstill and completely clueless as to what to do. I have
already committed several sheets of plywood down with glue and nails, so
ripping out the original subfloor and replacing it is a bigger task.

Any thoughts or directions would certainly be appreciated.

Thanks,
Mark




Does it look like this?


http://www.homasote.com/products/4-Way-Floor-Deck.aspx

http://www.homasote.com/products/440-Soundbarrier.aspx

I have a house that was built in 1980 and utilizes a subfloor of a
compund I have never seen in a house, before or after this house was
built. The material is a gray, almost pressed paper looking material
that is a full 1-1/2" thick. The problem is that over the last 32
years, the subfloor has drooped a bit between the floor joists, and the
joists themselves may not be the straightest, either. Nevertheless, we
are determined to put an engineered flooring in and I am at An impass. I
purchased and laid 3/8" plywood over about 250 feet of flooring (1
bedroom and 2 hallways and a bathroom) and began laying my flooring.
The plywood did not take out enough of the differences from the peaks to
the valleys to make the flooring install correctly. I realized this
after installing it in the bedroom, and I pulled it back up to address
the subfloor.

The subfloor has up to a 3/8" difference across different parts of the
floor. I am considering using a self leveling compound, but posts I've
read state that it's not the best on big floors and the bedroom itself
is about 150' and it needs it all over the floor. Additionally, There
is still some flex where the plywood did not completely adhere to the
original subfloor and I fear the self leveling compound will break up
over time.

I am at a standstill and completely clueless as to what to do. I have
already committed several sheets of plywood down with glue and nails, so
ripping out the original subfloor and replacing it is a bigger task.

Any thoughts or directions would certainly be appreciated.


*I have seen floors like you describe. They developed cavities over time
for whatever reason. I think that stuff is for sound and/or fireproofing.

What I have seen done is the cavities get filled in with a Dash Patch type
product such as this:
http://www.pacoa.com/dash-patch-25lb...ler-12125.html

Home Depot sells a similar product under the "Henry's" brand name (I think).

Sister Joisting the floor level is what I have been considering. What is the correct technique for this? Can I just scab a 2x4 or 2x6 on to the joist and raise it up?

What do you mean when you say jack it up from the underside? There is no getting to bottom of the joists, it is in a second story.

Thanks for all the replys. I convinced myself last night that it needs to be fixed correctly, once and for all. If anyone could let me know the correct way to do this I would be grateful.

On Jul 19, 10:45*pm, "Pete C." wrote:
Mark Bolton wrote:

I have a house that was built in 1980 and utilizes a subfloor of a
compund I have never seen in a house, before or after this house was
built. The material is a gray, almost pressed paper looking material
that is a full 1-1/2" thick. *The problem is that over the last 32
years, the subfloor has drooped a bit between the floor joists, and the
joists themselves may not be the straightest, either. *Nevertheless, we
are determined to put an engineered flooring in and I am at An impass. I
purchased and laid 3/8" plywood over about 250 feet of flooring (1
bedroom and 2 hallways and a bathroom) and began laying my flooring.
The plywood did not take out enough of the differences from the peaks to
the valleys to make the flooring install correctly. I realized this
after installing it in the bedroom, and I pulled it back up to address
the subfloor.

The subfloor has up to a 3/8" difference across different parts of the
floor. *I am considering using a self leveling compound, but posts I've
read state that it's not the best on big floors and the bedroom itself
is about 150' and it needs it all over the floor. *Additionally, There
is still some flex where the plywood did not completely adhere to the
original subfloor and I fear the self leveling compound will break up
over time.

I am at a standstill and completely clueless as to what to do. *I have
already committed several sheets of plywood down with glue and nails, so
ripping out the original subfloor and replacing it is a bigger task.

Any thoughts or directions would certainly be appreciated.

Thanks,
Mark

--
Mark Bolton

I'm afraid your best option is to get out your circular saw, cut through
the funky subfloor around the perimeter and rip the stuff out. Replace
with two layers of 3/4" ply glued to the joists with construction
adhesive and fastened with screws or screw shank nails and more adhesive
between layers with the joints staggered. Then install your new
flooring.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The above sounds like a straightforward plan that will work
to me. The only concern would be that the OP mentioned
that besides the subfloor sagging between the
joists, there may be a problem with the joists themselves.
That can be determined and corrected if necessary
after the old subfloor is removed. If just a couple joists
are involved and there is no issue from below, eg visibly
sagging ceiling, then I'd probably sister the bad joists
without jacking the old ones up to level. You have the
subfloor attach to the top of the new sister joist. I
would also make sure that the joist sizes are adequate
for the span.....

This is some very weird construction technique for a
house.

On Jul 20, 9:06*am, Mark Bolton
wrote:

....snip...

Sister Joisting the floor level is what I have been considering. *What
is the correct technique for this? *Can I just scab a 2x4 or 2x6 on to
the joist and raise it up?

Maybe I'm missing something, but if the problem is that the subfloor
material is substandard and "has drooped a bit between the floor
joists" what is sistering joists going to accomplish with respect to
the "droop"? Nothing as far as I can tell.

Once the substandard floor is removed (which you have to do to sister
anything onto the joists) the "droop between the joists" will
obviously be gone and you can assess any other issues at that point.

Sistering may help if the joists themselves are also a problem
("...and the joists themselves may not be the straightest, either")
but until you determine whether or not the "may be" is actually true,
making the decision to sister might a bit premature.


What do you mean when you say jack it up from the underside? *There is
no getting to bottom of the joists, it is in a second story.

Well, I wouldn't say there's "no way" but I'll give you there's "no
easy way".


Thanks for all the replys. I convinced myself last night that it needs
to be fixed correctly, once and for all. *If anyone could let me know
the correct way to do this I would be grateful.

We can't give the correct way until we know what is really wrong. Is
it just a subfloor issue or a structural issue or both? I don't know
if you can really determine that until the drooping subfloor is
removed and you know what going on underneath it.

On Jul 20, 10:40*am, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Jul 20, 9:06*am, Mark Bolton
wrote:

...snip...

Sister Joisting the floor level is what I have been considering. *What
is the correct technique for this? *Can I just scab a 2x4 or 2x6 on to
the joist and raise it up?

Maybe I'm missing something, but if the problem is that the subfloor
material is substandard and "has drooped a bit between the floor
joists" what is sistering joists going to accomplish with respect to
the "droop"? Nothing as far as I can tell.

Once the substandard floor is removed (which you have to do to sister
anything onto the joists) the "droop between the joists" will
obviously be gone and you can assess any other issues at that point.

Sistering may help if the joists themselves are also a problem
("...and the joists themselves may not be the straightest, either")
but until you determine whether or not the "may be" is actually true,
making the decision to sister might a bit premature.



What do you mean when you say jack it up from the underside? *There is
no getting to bottom of the joists, it is in a second story.

Well, I wouldn't say there's "no way" but I'll give you there's "no
easy way".



Thanks for all the replys. I convinced myself last night that it needs
to be fixed correctly, once and for all. *If anyone could let me know
the correct way to do this I would be grateful.

We can't give the correct way until we know what is really wrong. Is
it just a subfloor issue or a structural issue or both? I don't know
if you can really determine that until the drooping subfloor is
removed and you know what going on underneath it.

As usual, I agree with all of the above. The first step
is taking out the failed subfloor. It would be a good
idea to also take a look at the ceiling from below and
see if there is any visible sagging, cracking there.

On Jul 20, 8:06*am, Mark Bolton
wrote:[color=blue][i]
hr(bob) [email Wrote:





[/email];2894997]On Jul 19, 4:15*pm, Mark Bolton

wrote:

You will have to put up cross-bracing between the joists at an
absolute minimum. *Probably the best thing to do is to sister new
joists along side the original joists, but doing this only after
jacking up the oriiginal joists to somewhat highr than perfectly
horizointal and then putting in the sistering. *You may have to put in
both the sistering and the cross-joists if you want a really stiff and
level floor. The only other possibility is to put in a new heavy-duty
joist/beam cross-wise under the lowest point of the sagging joists and
then jacking up the new beam somehow until the floors are level. *You
may have to do this separately for each room, depending on the floor
joist pattern. *Glad this is not my house.

Sister Joisting the floor level is what I have been considering. *What
is the correct technique for this? *Can I just scab a 2x4 or 2x6 on to
the joist and raise it up?

What do you mean when you say jack it up from the underside? *There is
no getting to bottom of the joists, it is in a second story.

Thanks for all the replys. I convinced myself last night that it needs
to be fixed correctly, once and for all. *If anyone could let me know
the correct way to do this I would be grateful.

--
Mark Bolton- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Sorry about jacking it up, your OP didn't say it was a second floor.
But, you could still jack it up if you spread the top of the jack out
using several increasingly large pieces of wood on the top of the jack
so you don't apply the jacking force all in one place but rather
spread it out over a few square feet.

On Jul 20, 12:43*pm, "hr(bob) "
wrote:[color=blue][i]
On Jul 20, 8:06*am, Mark Bolton
wrote:





hr(bob) [email Wrote:

[/email];2894997]On Jul 19, 4:15*pm, Mark Bolton

wrote:

You will have to put up cross-bracing between the joists at an
absolute minimum. *Probably the best thing to do is to sister new
joists along side the original joists, but doing this only after
jacking up the oriiginal joists to somewhat highr than perfectly
horizointal and then putting in the sistering. *You may have to put in
both the sistering and the cross-joists if you want a really stiff and
level floor. The only other possibility is to put in a new heavy-duty
joist/beam cross-wise under the lowest point of the sagging joists and
then jacking up the new beam somehow until the floors are level. *You
may have to do this separately for each room, depending on the floor
joist pattern. *Glad this is not my house.

Sister Joisting the floor level is what I have been considering. *What
is the correct technique for this? *Can I just scab a 2x4 or 2x6 on to
the joist and raise it up?

What do you mean when you say jack it up from the underside? *There is
no getting to bottom of the joists, it is in a second story.

Thanks for all the replys. I convinced myself last night that it needs
to be fixed correctly, once and for all. *If anyone could let me know
the correct way to do this I would be grateful.

--
Mark Bolton- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Sorry about jacking it up, your OP didn't say it was a second floor.
But, you could still jack it up if you spread the top of the jack out
using several increasingly large pieces of wood on the top of the jack
so you don't apply the jacking force all in one place but rather
spread it out over a few square feet.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Of course, you would need to consider how much jacking is needed and
determine how long it will take to jack it up the entire distance.

If you try to raise the ceiling a 1/2" in 15 minutes, odds are that
you are going to crack something such as drywall seams either in the
field or along the wall/ceiling junction.

On the other hand, a few drywall crack repairs will be child's play
compared to everything else you are about to do. ;-)

You guys are awesome, I don't think I have ever gotten so many reply's with legitimate advice in other related or unrelated forums. That being said, I would like to continue to lean on your expertise.

Ok, I have removed most of the subfloor in the first room. Although I am not sure it is Homasote, it is VERY similar. This was my childhood home, and I moved in with my family about 10 years ago when my folks decided to downsize. Dad remembers the (floor) product sizzle was that it was "fireproof", although it has excellent sound deadening qualities as the space under the subfloor has no insulation and I wouldn't have believed it had I not seen it. So, it probably is Homasote, or something similar.

As for the joists themselves, they are 2x12's (actually 11" true measurement) on 16" center. The joist issue I was fearing has come true. When laying an 8' straightedge across 5 or 6 joists, it appears there is up to a 1/4" to 5/16" gap under a few of them, just in the one spot I checked. They are not cross braced, and several of them are leaning, which has possibly caused them to change their original height. I don't know if they leaned after install, or if it was just a horrible original install. I am inclined to believe the latter, as I remember SEVERAL issues and dad griping about the builder, who later went out of business. My plan is to attempt to straighten the joist as much as possible, cross brace, and then sister joist but leave 1-1/8" of new sister joist above the old thus raising the sublfoor back up to the desired height (original 1-1/2 subfloor and 3/8 sheathing on top of that) as I have already undercut 5 doorways and the entire sill plate on both sides of the hallway that is open to the living room below. Then lay 3/4" OSB subfloor, and then the floating floor. I have about 1250 sq ft of this to do, so it'll probably take me the rest of the summer.

I have a few concerns:

1. What is the best way to straighten (plumb) a leaning joist? In the closet, I can see it running under the wall leaning pretty hard. It is obviously still nailed under the walls, and will not be straightening under them still nailed to the bottom plate. These joists run from this particular room, under a bathroom, and then under another bedroom before attaching back to the wall on the front of the house. Is it necessary to straighten them? My thought here is yes, because the lean will only be exacerbated with the new 1-1/8" high sister joist I am adding.

2. Should I be adding structure back under the interior walls as needed? For example, the left front wall of the reach-in closet in the bedroom ends about an inch from one of these joists, so it's last place of support is about 15" from the end. The subfloor was put on top of the entire bottom floor, before ever adding a stick of lumber on the second floor. When I cut the floor out with a multitool, I cut it flush with the interior walls, so there is still the original gray subflooring under the interior walls.

3. How important is jacking the joists back in place? Although the ceiling in the room below (our TV room) has been refinished in the last 5 years, we have never noticed sagging or breaking sheetrock. Now that I am aware of the problem, I can see the sag, although it just isn't noticeable. Something else that leads me to believe these joists were built this way.

4. I will need to add nailers to both the front and sides of the room so as not to have floating sheets of plywood in those areas, but I think I have a plan for those. I hope to be able to lag 4x4's to the side wall and something similar to cross bracing on the front and back walls.

I just reread through this and it seems a bit confusing, so if this does confuse anyone, I am happy to post pictures if they are allowable. I will find out if I can and then post up a few pics later.

As everything I ever touch in this house, it continues to grow. This began as removing old carpet and replacing it with a hardwood floor. Very frustrating.

Thanks guys.

Mark

Mark Bolton wrote:


I just reread through this and it seems a bit confusing, so if this does
confuse anyone, I am happy to post pictures if they are allowable. I
will find out if I can and then post up a few pics later.


To post pictures you need to find a photo hosting site such as PhotoBucket
and then post a link to the pictures or album back here.

DerbyDad03 wrote in
:

Mark Bolton wrote:


I just reread through this and it seems a bit confusing, so if this
does confuse anyone, I am happy to post pictures if they are
allowable. I will find out if I can and then post up a few pics
later.


To post pictures you need to find a photo hosting site such as
PhotoBucket and then post a link to the pictures or album back here.


Not that it's any better or worse but just another option. No signup/login
needed.

http://tinypic.com/