On Sat, 26 May 2012 21:52:41 -0700, DD_BobK wrote:

Dial back on the theory....no need to replace 90's with sweep 90's.
There is no way you need a fourth pump.

Thanks for the advice. I'm not sure what a '90' is but the pool was built
in 2001 and it's complicated. Too complicated. It's certainly not KISS.

btw 5' of head is about 2 psi..... not a lot pressure.

Interesting. If it were me, I would have put the pumps at the same level
as the pool deck.

Seriously, there should be no leaks.

Thanks. I didn't know what is considered 'normal'.

On Sat, 26 May 2012 22:21:01 -0700, Bob F wrote:

What is the material? What does the manufacturer suggest?
A quick review of their site offered no help.

Googling for "fafco repair kit instructions" I find these instructions:
https://shop.solardirect.com/pdf/poo...-pool-heaters/
collectors/fafco/fafco-kit-instructions.pdf

Essentially, the manufacturer sells (only through distributors) an
expensive mechanical repair 'kit' which consists of three components:
a) A curved knive to slit open the panel's many tubes
b) A dozen rubber cones to shove into the now-wide-open panel tube
c) A thin allen wrench to use to shove the plug into the hole you cut
with the knife

I have the repair kit. It's a pain to use - but it works (eventually).

What I really need is a second source for the little conical plugs:
http://www.ehow.com/how_6128236_repa...ar-panels.html

Arklin K. wrote:
On Sat, 26 May 2012 21:52:41 -0700, DD_BobK wrote:

Dial back on the theory....no need to replace 90's with sweep 90's.
There is no way you need a fourth pump.

Thanks for the advice. I'm not sure what a '90' is but the pool was
built in 2001 and it's complicated. Too complicated. It's certainly
not KISS.

btw 5' of head is about 2 psi..... not a lot pressure.

Interesting. If it were me, I would have put the pumps at the same
level as the pool deck.


Then, you would have to worry about priming them.

On Sat, 26 May 2012 22:51:25 -0700, "Bob F" wrote:

Arklin K. wrote:
On Sat, 26 May 2012 21:52:41 -0700, DD_BobK wrote:

Dial back on the theory....no need to replace 90's with sweep 90's.
There is no way you need a fourth pump.

Thanks for the advice. I'm not sure what a '90' is but the pool was
built in 2001 and it's complicated. Too complicated. It's certainly
not KISS.

btw 5' of head is about 2 psi..... not a lot pressure.

Interesting. If it were me, I would have put the pumps at the same
level as the pool deck.


Then, you would have to worry about priming them.

Most will self prime that far. If not, a little water in the pump basket is
enough. If there aren't any leaks the pump will stay primed.

On May 26, 10:30*pm, "Arklin K." wrote:
On Sat, 26 May 2012 21:52:41 -0700, DD_BobK wrote:
Dial back on the theory....no need to replace 90's with sweep 90's.
There is no way you need a fourth pump.

Thanks for the advice. I'm not sure what a '90' is but the pool was built
in 2001 and it's complicated. Too complicated. It's certainly not KISS.

btw * 5' of head is about 2 psi..... not a lot pressure.

Interesting. If it were me, I would have put the pumps at the same level
as the pool deck.

Seriously, there should be no leaks.

Thanks. I didn't know what is considered 'normal'.

A "90" is an 90 degree elbow.

A 2" PVC 90 deg elbow vs a sweep 90 saves about the equivalent length
of pipe ~3'.
Depending on the pipe size in your installation & flow, it may or may
not make a susbtaintial difference in power consumption.

take a look at

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pv...ngs-d_801.html

cheers
Bob

On May 27, 1:13*am, "Arklin K." wrote:
On Sat, 26 May 2012 21:54:47 -0700, Oren wrote:
What possible use would the ball valve be?
It turns off the water or turns it on - flow direction....

Except that the ball valve is the end of the line, i.e., it's a faucet.
*http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...40/8345090.jpg

If I turn the ball valve on, water spews onto the ground just like a
faucet would.

The only thing I can think of is that the ball valve faucet is there to
either allow us to drain something or to back-wash something.

If it's a drain faucet, it makes little sense to me because the filter
has its own drain plug.

If it's for backwash (e.g., you hook a garden hose to it somehow), it
also makes little sense because the open end is not threaded and the
pleated filter isn't the type that gets backwashed anyway.

So, having a 'faucet' attached to my filter pump (in the form of a ball
valve) still makes no sense to me. Certainly I've never used it for
anything.

Is there any means to drain the pool? Maybe they
planned this as a future drain, but never completed it by
adding a fitting and hose.

On May 27, 1:30*am, "Arklin K." wrote:
On Sat, 26 May 2012 21:52:41 -0700, DD_BobK wrote:
Dial back on the theory....no need to replace 90's with sweep 90's.
There is no way you need a fourth pump.

Thanks for the advice. I'm not sure what a '90' is but the pool was built
in 2001 and it's complicated. Too complicated. It's certainly not KISS.

btw * 5' of head is about 2 psi..... not a lot pressure.

Interesting. If it were me, I would have put the pumps at the same level
as the pool deck.

Seriously, there should be no leaks.

Thanks. I didn't know what is considered 'normal'.

That may be his definition of normal, but I'd say
it's not typical and not my definition. Lots of pools
have a small drip here and there. For example, on
the multi-port selector valve on mine, right now
there is a slow drip. Not worth screwing around with
something that leaks a pint a day, outside, where it's
not a problem.

Also, here we winterize so there are various plugs
that have to be removed and re-installed each season.
If one of them has a tiny drip, I'll tighten it, but if
that doesn't work, I'm not about to take out the plug
on the bottom of the filter again over a pint a day drip.

You can drive yourself nuts over trying to make
everything perfect. Some people seem to think
you should tear the whole thing apart just because
it's not plumbed pretty and it's harder to repair.
I think they are seriously underestimating the
amount of work involved. And for what? It's
working, isn't it? And you just replaced a valve.
If there comes a time when there is a major overhaul,
eg you're switching to a DE filter, then I'd consider
what can be changed at the same time to make
it a better design.

As far as using flex pipe instead of elbows for
efficiency, I wouldn't worry about it. Rigid PVC is
cheap, sturdier, last longer etc. And those
elbows don't amount to that much in the grand
scheme. You just minimize their use where
possible, use 45's instead of 90's if u can, etc.

On May 27, 1:59*am, "
wrote:
On Sat, 26 May 2012 22:51:25 -0700, "Bob F" wrote:
Arklin K. wrote:
On Sat, 26 May 2012 21:52:41 -0700, DD_BobK wrote:

Dial back on the theory....no need to replace 90's with sweep 90's.
There is no way you need a fourth pump.

Thanks for the advice. I'm not sure what a '90' is but the pool was
built in 2001 and it's complicated. Too complicated. It's certainly
not KISS.

btw * 5' of head is about 2 psi..... not a lot pressure.

Interesting. If it were me, I would have put the pumps at the same
level as the pool deck.

Then, you would have to worry about priming them.

Most will self prime that far. *If not, a little water in the pump basket is
enough. *If there aren't any leaks the pump will stay primed.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yep, the pool pumps I've worked with have all
been above the water level of the pool, typically
on flat ground with the water level a foot or so
lower and they self-prime.

On Sun, 27 May 2012 06:06:10 -0700, wrote:

Is there any means to drain the pool? Maybe they planned this as a
future drain, but never completed it by adding a fitting and hose.

There is no other drain - so that is a logical conclusion that it's a
drain hose bib (without the drain hose attached).

On Sun, 27 May 2012 06:22:59 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On May 27, 1:59*am, "
wrote:
On Sat, 26 May 2012 22:51:25 -0700, "Bob F" wrote:
Arklin K. wrote:
On Sat, 26 May 2012 21:52:41 -0700, DD_BobK wrote:

Dial back on the theory....no need to replace 90's with sweep 90's.
There is no way you need a fourth pump.

Thanks for the advice. I'm not sure what a '90' is but the pool was
built in 2001 and it's complicated. Too complicated. It's certainly
not KISS.

btw * 5' of head is about 2 psi..... not a lot pressure.

Interesting. If it were me, I would have put the pumps at the same
level as the pool deck.

Then, you would have to worry about priming them.

Most will self prime that far. *If not, a little water in the pump basket is
enough. *If there aren't any leaks the pump will stay primed.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yep, the pool pumps I've worked with have all
been above the water level of the pool, typically
on flat ground with the water level a foot or so
lower and they self-prime.

In fact the pump *should* be above the pool level so a leak at the pump/filter
won't drain the pool.

Arklin K. wrote:
On Sat, 26 May 2012 22:21:01 -0700, Bob F wrote:

What is the material? What does the manufacturer suggest?
A quick review of their site offered no help.

Googling for "fafco repair kit instructions" I find these
instructions:
https://shop.solardirect.com/pdf/poo...-pool-heaters/
collectors/fafco/fafco-kit-instructions.pdf

Essentially, the manufacturer sells (only through distributors) an
expensive mechanical repair 'kit' which consists of three components:
a) A curved knive to slit open the panel's many tubes
b) A dozen rubber cones to shove into the now-wide-open panel tube
c) A thin allen wrench to use to shove the plug into the hole you cut
with the knife

I have the repair kit. It's a pain to use - but it works (eventually).

What I really need is a second source for the little conical plugs:
http://www.ehow.com/how_6128236_repa...ar-panels.html

So, leaks are solved by just disabling the leaky areas of the panel?

You could try a product called "AquaSeal" to patch the leaks. I've had good luck
with it for patching air mattresses and wet suit material. It won't last
forever, but could be worth a try. Or maybe a hot glue gun. OR even, the
AquaSeal, covered with rubberized cloth like rubber raft material.

On Sun, 27 May 2012 05:13:47 +0000 (UTC), "Arklin K."
wrote:

On Sat, 26 May 2012 21:54:47 -0700, Oren wrote:


What possible use would the ball valve be?
It turns off the water or turns it on - flow direction....


Except that the ball valve is the end of the line, i.e., it's a faucet.
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...40/8345090.jpg

If I turn the ball valve on, water spews onto the ground just like a
faucet would.

The only thing I can think of is that the ball valve faucet is there to
either allow us to drain something or to back-wash something.

If it's a drain faucet, it makes little sense to me because the filter
has its own drain plug.

If it's for backwash (e.g., you hook a garden hose to it somehow), it
also makes little sense because the open end is not threaded and the
pleated filter isn't the type that gets backwashed anyway.

So, having a 'faucet' attached to my filter pump (in the form of a ball
valve) still makes no sense to me. Certainly I've never used it for
anything.

I have no clue for the ball valve, except that it 'might' be a
positive drain. Irrigation and solar panels have a "positive drain
valve" (some). When water pressure stops, the valve opens and allows
pipes to drain. No need for winterizing the unit. Pipes won't freeze.

I'm guessing here...

On Sun, 27 May 2012 11:52:14 -0700, Bob F wrote:

So, leaks are solved by just disabling the leaky areas of the panel?

Yeah. One by one, you disable each of the dozens of pipes which leak
every year. You first gouge out a few inches, and then put two rubber
plugs in the top, and two in the bottom using this $40 repair kit from
Fafco:
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...40/8353162.jpg


You could try a product called "AquaSeal" to patch the leaks.

Today I patched about a dozen leaks and then, after it sun dried, I added
putty epoxy as shown in this picture below. I hope the disable of the
pipe holds. If not, I'll look to the AquaSeal since I presume it can seal
while wet (which is a major problem with this repair).
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...40/8353164.jpg


Or maybe a hot glue gun.

Hmmm... I 'like' this idea! The hot glue might push itself up the hole
when I disable the tube by gouging it out and trying to plug it with the
hot glue from the pressure of the water from the pump.

BTW, I learned my lesson today to use whiteout to mark the holes when
they are wet - and then to let them sun dry to repair them with the glue/
epoxy.

On May 27, 6:21*am, "
wrote:
On May 27, 1:30*am, "Arklin K." wrote:

On Sat, 26 May 2012 21:52:41 -0700, DD_BobK wrote:
Dial back on the theory....no need to replace 90's with sweep 90's.
There is no way you need a fourth pump.

Thanks for the advice. I'm not sure what a '90' is but the pool was built
in 2001 and it's complicated. Too complicated. It's certainly not KISS.

btw * 5' of head is about 2 psi..... not a lot pressure.

Interesting. If it were me, I would have put the pumps at the same level
as the pool deck.

Seriously, there should be no leaks.

Thanks. I didn't know what is considered 'normal'.

That may be his definition of normal, but I'd say
it's not typical and not my definition. * Lots of pools
have a small drip here and there. *For example, on
the multi-port selector valve on mine, right now
there is a slow drip. *Not worth screwing around with
something that leaks a pint a day, outside, where it's
not a problem.

Also, here we winterize so there are various plugs
that have to be removed and re-installed each season.
If one of them has a tiny drip, I'll tighten it, but if
that doesn't work, I'm not about to take out the plug
on the bottom of the filter again over a pint a day drip.

You can drive yourself nuts over trying to make
everything perfect. *Some people seem to think
you should tear the whole thing apart just because
it's not plumbed pretty and it's harder to repair.
I think they are seriously underestimating the
amount of work involved. * And for what? *It's
working, isn't it? *And you just replaced a valve.
If there comes a time when there is a major overhaul,
eg you're switching to a DE filter, then I'd consider
what can be changed at the same time to make
it a better design.

As far as using flex pipe instead of elbows for
efficiency, I wouldn't worry about it. *Rigid PVC is
cheap, sturdier, last longer etc. *And those
elbows don't amount to that much in the grand
scheme. *You just minimize their use where
possible, use 45's instead of 90's if u can, etc.

T4-

You're adding words to my posts........

The OP used the word "normal", I never did.
If I were to use the word "normal" I guess it would apply to the
"typical" pool installation in service.
Probably thrown together by someone of limited skill & knowledge and
most likely leaking a tolerable amount.
Representative of the poor workmanship that has become the norm is the
US.

I merely suggested that if he's doing a repair he should shoot for no
leaks.

Unfortunately the OP is working on a jacked up installation with what
appears to minimal plumbing experience.
The idea of attempting to seal a leak by drawing PVC solvent into the
leak is pretty amateurish.
That's not how PVC solvent cement is meant to work. But "hey,
whatever works".

The installation he's dealing with is such a mess I suppose nothing
really matters expect reducing the leak to an acceptable level.
The overall, redesign, rebuild can wait for another day.

However, he did mention adding a 4th pump..........

With the pump below the pool water line leaks will drain the pool.
With the pump above the pool water line, the pump prime might be lost.

Pools lose a lot water due to evap so a small leak probably won't use
a great deal of additional water.

cheers
Bob

On 5/26/2012 10:13 PM, Arklin K. wrote:
On Sat, 26 May 2012 21:54:47 -0700, Oren wrote:


What possible use would the ball valve be?
It turns off the water or turns it on - flow direction....


Except that the ball valve is the end of the line, i.e., it's a faucet.
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...40/8345090.jpg

If I turn the ball valve on, water spews onto the ground just like a
faucet would.

The only thing I can think of is that the ball valve faucet is there to
either allow us to drain something or to back-wash something.

If it's a drain faucet, it makes little sense to me because the filter
has its own drain plug.

If it's for backwash (e.g., you hook a garden hose to it somehow), it
also makes little sense because the open end is not threaded and the
pleated filter isn't the type that gets backwashed anyway.

So, having a 'faucet' attached to my filter pump (in the form of a ball
valve) still makes no sense to me. Certainly I've never used it for
anything.

air bleed, so you can burp it?

On May 26, 11:31*pm, "Arklin K." wrote:
On Sat, 26 May 2012 19:49:09 -0700, Oren wrote:
I have no idea 'what' that red ball valve is for but it's on the outlet
side of the filter pump. I 'guess' it's a drain for the filter but the
filter space ship bubble has its own drain so I'm not sure what its
purpose is.

Given to position / orientation of the handle, perpendicular to the pipe
the valve is closed. Parallel to the direction of the pipe is an open
valve. What do you have shut off? The heater?

Ooops. I made a mistake in my description - and I appreciate your
question. You have always noticed stuff I had no clue about.

It's dark now, so I dug up the best picture I could find:
*http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...40/8344939.jpg

The water flows into the filter pump, and out the filter pump into the
filter. At the outlet of the filter pump (but before the filter) is
another pipe, which is open ended. At the very end of that open-ended
pipe is this ball valve.

So the ball valve is on the end of an open-ended pipe which itself is
mounted to the line that goes INTO the filter. Why it's there is beyond
me.

If I open the ball valve, water flows out:
a) If the filter pump is running, water spews out fast.
b) if the filter pump is off, water flows out slower.

I have no idea WHY this ball valve exists. It's like a faucet mounted on
top of the output of my filter pump.

What possible use would the ball valve be?

If it's a drain, I have to mention that the filter itself has its own
drain (at the bottom) and the pump has a drain (at the bottom of the
basket); so why would this drain exist?

That valve is likely to help the pump to prime by reducing back
pressure. If your pump has trouble priming, you can let the water out
easily and after it primes, just close it. If it's just sticking up
in the air, that seems a bad design. However, after looking at the
photos you've posted...
Phil

On May 31, 7:38*am, Phil Crow wrote:
On May 26, 11:31*pm, "Arklin K." wrote:





On Sat, 26 May 2012 19:49:09 -0700, Oren wrote:
I have no idea 'what' that red ball valve is for but it's on the outlet
side of the filter pump. I 'guess' it's a drain for the filter but the
filter space ship bubble has its own drain so I'm not sure what its
purpose is.

Given to position / orientation of the handle, perpendicular to the pipe
the valve is closed. Parallel to the direction of the pipe is an open
valve. What do you have shut off? The heater?

Ooops. I made a mistake in my description - and I appreciate your
question. You have always noticed stuff I had no clue about.

It's dark now, so I dug up the best picture I could find:
*http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...40/8344939.jpg

The water flows into the filter pump, and out the filter pump into the
filter. At the outlet of the filter pump (but before the filter) is
another pipe, which is open ended. At the very end of that open-ended
pipe is this ball valve.

So the ball valve is on the end of an open-ended pipe which itself is
mounted to the line that goes INTO the filter. Why it's there is beyond
me.

If I open the ball valve, water flows out:
a) If the filter pump is running, water spews out fast.
b) if the filter pump is off, water flows out slower.

I have no idea WHY this ball valve exists. It's like a faucet mounted on
top of the output of my filter pump.

What possible use would the ball valve be?

If it's a drain, I have to mention that the filter itself has its own
drain (at the bottom) and the pump has a drain (at the bottom of the
basket); so why would this drain exist?

That valve is likely to help the pump to prime by reducing back
pressure. *If your pump has trouble priming, you can let the water out
easily and after it primes, just close it. *If it's just sticking up
in the air, that seems a bad design. *However, after looking at the
photos you've posted...
Phil- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Unless he has something very unusual, all that's
normally used on pool eqpt is a small valve to let
air out at the top of the filter tank. No need for a
2" valve to prime the pump. And his pool eqpt is
located lower than the pool....