Hi

I hope that someone can advise me. We’ve just pulled out a kitchen which was 29 years old and having had a few electricians come in are really none the wiser! We need to move some sockets around, move the point for the oven and change the lighting system from a normal light fitting to LED spots.

The issues that we have are some of the plugs are on old black rubber system which we know needs to be changed and the lighting system is unearthed.

Some of the electricians are telling us that we can pick up the old oven power supply and run new cables to the new position using the old cable which is almost 30 years old but not on the black rubber ring. Others are telling us that we should tie off and make everything good and run afresh from the board.

Additionally, on the board only half of the trips are covered with the RCD. We have been advised that this is fine as is, but others have said that we need to replace the board entirely and others we should add individual RCBO trips to each section.

As you can see we’re getting very conflicting advice and whilst I’m still waiting on all quotes coming in the two that I have range from £800 to just over double that. So much to get a couple of quotes – only when you know what you’re doing!!!

All help very much appreciated.

Most of the readers on this list are American. You may get more fitting
comments on a UK list.

I'll see if I can find that list. Copy them in, on the chance they will
know.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Johanna" wrote in message
...

Hi

I hope that someone can advise me. We've just pulled out a kitchen
which was 29 years old and having had a few electricians come in are
really none the wiser! We need to move some sockets around, move the
point for the oven and change the lighting system from a normal light
fitting to LED spots.

The issues that we have are some of the plugs are on old black rubber
system which we know needs to be changed and the lighting system is
unearthed.

Some of the electricians are telling us that we can pick up the old oven
power supply and run new cables to the new position using the old cable
which is almost 30 years old but not on the black rubber ring. Others
are telling us that we should tie off and make everything good and run
afresh from the board.

Additionally, on the board only half of the trips are covered with the
RCD. We have been advised that this is fine as is, but others have said
that we need to replace the board entirely and others we should add
individual RCBO trips to each section.

As you can see we're getting very conflicting advice and whilst I'm
still waiting on all quotes coming in the two that I have range from
£800 to just over double that. So much to get a couple of quotes -
only when you know what you're doing!!!

All help very much appreciated.




--
Johanna

I Would go for a spark who wants to replace ALL the cabling and fittings.
using existing 30 year old cables etc. I Would have them all replaced with
new ones patching up now may save a few ££££s now but you could be covering
up what could end up being a potential disaster.
I went to a job a few years back that had been partially rewired 10 years
earlier (but because they had, had a new carpet fitted back then and didn't
want the sparks ripping it up) When I lifted a hall floor board to trace the
cause the of the light to flickering when it was walked upon, I found a wire
that had been there since the house had had central heating installed in the
70s and the plumbers had trapped the wire this trapped and very flattened
cable had actually scorched the floor board.

So again go for replacing all the wires etc. in the kitchen.
Paul W


Hi

I hope that someone can advise me. We've just pulled out a kitchen
which was 29 years old and having had a few electricians come in are
really none the wiser! We need to move some sockets around, move the
point for the oven and change the lighting system from a normal light
fitting to LED spots.

The issues that we have are some of the plugs are on old black rubber
system which we know needs to be changed and the lighting system is
unearthed.

Some of the electricians are telling us that we can pick up the old oven
power supply and run new cables to the new position using the old cable
which is almost 30 years old but not on the black rubber ring. Others
are telling us that we should tie off and make everything good and run
afresh from the board.

Additionally, on the board only half of the trips are covered with the
RCD. We have been advised that this is fine as is, but others have said
that we need to replace the board entirely and others we should add
individual RCBO trips to each section.

As you can see we're getting very conflicting advice and whilst I'm
still waiting on all quotes coming in the two that I have range from
£800 to just over double that. So much to get a couple of quotes -
only when you know what you're doing!!!

All help very much appreciated.




--
Johanna

On 09/05/2012 20:47, Andy Champ wrote:
On 09/05/2012 15:13, Stormin Mormon wrote:

wrote in message
...

Hi

I hope that someone can advise me. We've just pulled out a kitchen
which was 29 years old and having had a few electricians come in are
really none the wiser! We need to move some sockets around, move the
point for the oven and change the lighting system from a normal light
fitting to LED spots.

The issues that we have are some of the plugs are on old black rubber
system which we know needs to be changed and the lighting system is
unearthed.

The rubber will be well past it (it seems unlikely it was new at the
last rewire if that were only 30 years ago)

The lighting circuit will certainly need redoing (either the whole
circuit for that floor if its shared with the kitchen, or a new circuit
run for just the kitchen). Since there is no compliant way of extending
of changing it now - especially if you want metal fittings or switch gear.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...thout_an_Earth

Some of the electricians are telling us that we can pick up the old oven
power supply and run new cables to the new position using the old cable
which is almost 30 years old but not on the black rubber ring. Others
are telling us that we should tie off and make everything good and run
afresh from the board.

If the cable was installed 30 years ago and is a modern style PVC cable,
there there is a resonable chance its in a usable condition. However the
cost of cable is cheap compared to the effort of wiring. So if its going
to be simpler to replace it then go with that.

It would also need to be adequate for your proposed use. Typically a
modern cooker circuit is wired with 6mm^2 T&E cable, from a 32A MCB.
That is usually adequate for domestic cookers of a total maximum power
rating of around 60kW (there is a generous allowance for diversity with
cookers).

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Diversity

Note that many single ovens are actually designed these days to run from
a normal 13A socket. Depending on the appliance list for the kitchen
that can be better provided on the dedicated cooker circuit though.

Additionally, on the board only half of the trips are covered with the
RCD. We have been advised that this is fine as is, but others have said
that we need to replace the board entirely and others we should add
individual RCBO trips to each section.

There are several ways of looking at this. The sockets in the kitchen
need to be on a RCD protected feed. The fixed appliances like the
oven/hob/cooker, there is no particular benefit to them being, however
there is one downside[1].

If new circuits are wired, then they will need to comply with the 17th
edition wiring regs. That means that any cables which are buried in the
building, but at a depth of = 50mm, will need some additional
protection from accidental damage. Either from a RCD, or via use of a
earthed metal shielded cable of some form (e.g. earthshield, SWA, MICC,
enclosed in steel conduit). Cables run on the surface or in surface
trunking are exempt.

RCBOs for kitchen circuits can be good, since they can be places with
highish natural leakages from all the heater elements knocking about
(oven, hob, washing machine, tumble drier, dishwasher etc).

As to the consumer unit. Much depends on what is there and whether it
has space for the required circuits or even if its still possible to get
breakers for it.


[1] The chances of your hob electrocuting you is vanishingly slim, but
the chance of an over with an ageing element nuisance tripping a RCD is
quantifiable.

As you can see we're getting very conflicting advice and whilst I'm
still waiting on all quotes coming in the two that I have range from
£800 to just over double that. So much to get a couple of quotes -
only when you know what you're doing!!!

All help very much appreciated.

Being realistic you need to look carefully at what you have and then
come up with a reasonably detailed spec for what you want. Once you have
that it will be easier getting comparable quotes (or DIYing!)

Feel free to come back with specific questions or bits you want clarified...

Other articles that may help:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?..._for_Beginners
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Consumer_unit
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...Consumer_Units
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=MCB
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=RCD




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 09/05/2012 21:29, John Rumm wrote:

That is usually adequate for domestic cookers of a total maximum power
rating of around 60kW (there is a generous allowance for diversity with

Sorry Brain fart ^^^^

Make that about 60A or 15kW!



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"NT" wrote in message
...
On May 9, 8:47 pm, Andy Champ wrote:
On 09/05/2012 15:13, Stormin Mormon wrote:



wrote in message
...

Hi

I hope that someone can advise me. We've just pulled out a
kitchen
which was 29 years old and having had a few electricians
come in are
really none the wiser! We need to move some sockets around,
move the
point for the oven and change the lighting system from a
normal light
fitting to LED spots.

The issues that we have are some of the plugs are on old
black rubber
system which we know needs to be changed and the lighting
system is
unearthed.

Rubber wiring and 2 core lighting go back at least as far as the
1960s. Rubber wiring is more or less always in dangerous
condition
now, and should be disconnected at the CU. Its not impossible to
make
it safely usable, if you were in a listed mansion that might be
the
best option, but for the average house its best just replaced
wholesale.

2 core lighting isn't inherently unsafe, but its historic and has
a
couple of safety gotchas.
1. If the wire is rubber its likely to be in a terrible state, if
pvc
it should be good.
2. Metal switches, metal trunking and metal light fittings
without the
[[]] symbol are not ok on 2 core lighting circuits. This does
limit
light fitting choices.

If you want to modify the 2 core lighting cct (as opposed to
adding a
new one separate to it) then its time to replace it.


Some of the electricians are telling us that we can pick up
the old oven
power supply and run new cables to the new position using
the old cable
which is almost 30 years old but not on the black rubber
ring.

That's an option, fitting a small secondary CU on the end of the
cable. It may well be cheaper than fitting new cables back to the
CU.

Others
are telling us that we should tie off and make everything
good and run
afresh from the board.

Either is fine, the former probably cheaper

Additionally, on the board only half of the trips are
covered with the
RCD. We have been advised that this is fine as is, but
others have said

its fine

that we need to replace the board entirely

you don't. Sparks with pound signs in their eyes love to tell
people
they need unnecessary work.

and others we should add
individual RCBO trips to each section.

Not a requirement.


As you can see we're getting very conflicting advice and
whilst I'm
still waiting on all quotes coming in the two that I have
range from
£800 to just over double that. So much to get a couple of
quotes -
only when you know what you're doing!!!

All help very much appreciated.

For nearer £80 you could diy it.


NT


..... except that with DIY, under Part P regs it would have to be
certified afterwards at a typical cost of £400.


--
Woody

harrogate three at ntlworld dot com

On May 9, 11:57*am, Johanna wrote:
Hi

I hope that someone can advise me. *We’ve just pulled out a kitchen
which was 29 years old and having had a few electricians come in are
really none the wiser! *We need to move some sockets around, move the
point for the oven and change the lighting system from a normal light
fitting to LED spots.

The issues that we have are some of the plugs are on old black rubber
system which we know needs to be changed and the lighting system is
unearthed.

Some of the electricians are telling us that we can pick up the old oven
power supply and run new cables to the new position using the old cable
which is almost 30 years old but not on the black rubber ring. *Others
are telling us that we should tie off and make everything good and run
afresh from the board.

Additionally, on the board only half of the trips are covered with the
RCD. *We have been advised that this is fine as is, but others have said
that we need to replace the board entirely and others we should add
individual RCBO trips to each section.

As you can see we’re getting very conflicting advice and whilst I’m
still waiting on all quotes coming in the two that I have range from
£800 to just over double that. * So much to get a couple of quotes –
only when you know what you’re doing!!!

All help very much appreciated.

--
Johanna

If you are from the UK.

The "black rubber" has not been used for fifty years so it will need
replacing by now.
As to the rest, sometimes it's easier to replace rather then to modify
so it's down to opinion in the end. No-one can say for sure without
seeing the job.
Some electricians feel uneasy about being responsiblefor other peoples
work when it is not visible too.